DO Surgery Residency Really That Bad?

[uro]

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Premed here. I'm between a rock and a hard place. DO or Carib for med school. My understanding is that if I go DO I can enter a DO Surg residency (without much of a problem no matter what my board scores are, from what I understand), but if I go Carib I have to tough it out in the badass (Allopathic) match.

I really want to be a surgeon. Would it hurt my employment prospects that much to go DO?

 

[Taty]

Premed here. I'm between a rock and a hard place. DO or Carib for med school. My understanding is that if I go DO I can enter a DO Surg residency (without much of a problem no matter what my board scores are, from what I understand), but if I go Carib I have to tough it out in the badass (Allopathic) match.

I really want to be a surgeon. Would it hurt my employment prospects that much to go DO?

Search pre-DO forums u'll find all answers there.

 

[Winged Scapula]

First of all, the competitiveness of most specialties waxes and wanes every few years. Although general surgery is fairly competitive now, it may not be in 4+ years when you apply.

Secondly, in almost all cases, your life will be easier as a DO as opposed to an FMG. There are exceptions to every rule - the FMG who got a Derm residency and the DO who couldn't get into any allopathic surgery residency, but by and large, as a DO you will encounter an easier time.

As a DO, you can enter both the osteopathic and allopathic match, but as an FMG are only eligible for the allopathic one. Your scores and LORs will make more of a difference, than your degree, IMHO. With rare exceptions, having a DO degree won't make any difference in the match or your employment options.

So, at this point in time, I would go to whatever school you can get into: US based first (regardless of whether its allo or osteo), the abroad if you can't get into a US school. You have no idea REALLY whether you will want to do surgery 4 years from now, how competitive it will be, how competitive YOU will be and what effect, if any, your degree plays into that competitiveness.

 

[goooooober]

First of all, the competitiveness of most specialties waxes and wanes every few years. Although general surgery is fairly competitive now, it may not be in 4+ years when you apply.

Secondly, in almost all cases, your life will be easier as a DO as opposed to an FMG. There are exceptions to every rule - the FMG who got a Derm residency and the DO who couldn't get into any allopathic surgery residency, but by and large, as a DO you will encounter an easier time.

As a DO, you can enter both the osteopathic and allopathic match, but as an FMG are only eligible for the allopathic one. Your scores and LORs will make more of a difference, than your degree, IMHO. With rare exceptions, having a DO degree won't make any difference in the match or your employment options.


So, at this point in time, I would go to whatever school you can get into: US based first (regardless of whether its allo or osteo), the abroad if you can't get into a US school. You have no idea REALLY whether you will want to do surgery 4 years from now, how competitive it will be, how competitive YOU will be and what effect, if any, your degree plays into that competitiveness.

Well said. What can I say Coxy, you're Foxy. Peace out.

 

[surgdo]

I'm a D.O. doing M.D. surgery. It is harder but not unobtainable by any means.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Premed here. I'm between a rock and a hard place. DO or Carib for med school. My understanding is that if I go DO I can enter a DO Surg residency (without much of a problem no matter what my board scores are, from what I understand), but if I go Carib I have to tough it out in the badass (Allopathic) match.

I really want to be a surgeon. Would it hurt my employment prospects that much to go DO?

Simply from a paperwork standpoint, your life will forever be easier as a DO. (I say this as an allopathic MD that has gone through permanent licensure and credentialling at several hospitals.) For all the issues of prestige/credibility/reputation that exist MD vs. DO, you are legally on exactly the same footing from either place. On the other hand, significant formal, legal discrimination exists against FMG's. You have more hoops to jump through for licensure and credentialling, english proficiency tests, potential problems getting records both send and accepted from your medical education, etc. I'd stick with a US school if you can.

 

[uro]

So... why has no one answered my question? It's not that difficult. The title and body of my post relate to whether an *osteopathic* surgery *residency* will cause me problems.

BTW, I'm already well aware of the SDN take on DO vs. Carib med school (not saying the facts bear this out, but I'm at least aware of the party line here).

 

[Freshnstylin]

it's seems pretty obvious what they are saying. DO anything is better than FMG anything...schools, residencies, licensing etc etc etc as long as you wanna stay in US and practice. there are probably a ton of FMG schools where you'll become a great physician but your life will be easier going to an american school (MD or DO). you can take it for what it's worth...but in my opinion...if you are going DO just "to go" because you can't get in anywhere else...go to a foreign medschool and get the MD. If you don't want to be an osteopath then it's not worth your time.

Also, I think most sensible people on this site do not have a "party line." Your success will be determined by how well you do...plain and simple. 🙂

 

[Tired]

it's seems pretty obvious what they are saying. DO anything is better than FMG anything...schools, residencies, licensing etc etc etc as long as you wanna stay in US and practice. there are probably a ton of FMG schools where you'll become a great physician but your life will be easier going to an american school (MD or DO). you can take it for what it's worth...but in my opinion...if you are going DO just "to go" because you can't get in anywhere else...go to a foreign medschool and get the MD. If you don't want to be an osteopath then it's not worth your time.

The OP isn't asking about his competitiveness for residency. The way I read it, he/she is asking a job market question. Are surgeons trained through Osteopathic residencies marketable in the real world?

And probably the reason no answers have been forthcoming is that few of them post here. Maybe try the Osteopathic forum, they'd probably have a better idea.

 

[Pilot Doc]

And probably the reason no answers have been forthcoming is that few of them post here. Maybe try the Osteopathic forum, they'd probably have a better idea.

I'd agree with that. Might try calling some of the national headhunter firms and see what they say about placing DO surgeons.

 

[Krazykritter]

I don't understand why being a DO would hurt your employment opportunities. DO = physician. Both DO & MD use the exact same billing codes (thus make the same amount of money for the hospital/practice) & as long as you are board certified in the specialty you practice; What's the difference?

If you are worried about the quality of a osteopathic surgery residency hindering your ability to get your name out there & gain employment...Do well on boards, get great LORS, & impress everyone you meet & subsequently apply to only allopathic residencies. You may have to apply more broadly, but a competitive applicant is a competitive applicant from what I gather (whether that is MD/DO/FMG...you may have to do a few extra things for the two latter).

 

[Pilot Doc]

I don't understand why being a DO would hurt your employment opportunities. DO = physician. Both DO & MD use the exact same billing codes (thus make the same amount of money for the hospital/practice) & as long as you are board certified in the specialty you practice; What's the difference?

If you are worried about the quality of a osteopathic surgery residency hindering your ability to get your name out there & gain employment...Do well on boards, get great LORS, & impress everyone you meet & subsequently apply to only allopathic residencies. You may have to apply more broadly, but a competitive applicant is a competitive applicant from what I gather (whether that is MD/DO/FMG...you may have to do a few extra things for the two latter).

The correlation between how the world really works and how you think it should work is low.

 

[LovelyRita]

The correlation between how the world really works and how you think it should work is low.

Would love to hear your perspective here. If you think what you'd have to say may be perceived as negative, I wouldn't worry about it. Surgeons in training like us think about this stuff a lot and if you're withholding the plain truth to save feelings or something like that you're only doing us a major disservice. Out with it.

 

[goooooober]

The correlation between how the world really works and how you think it should work is low.

Yea pilot doc, spill it. What's the scoop?

 

[Pilot Doc]

Krazy Kritter said that surgeons are a commodity - all that matters is a medical license and board certification. That's a lovely sentiment, but life is more like high school then we'd like to think. Prestige and appearances matter, and DO's aren't as highly regarded as MD's by other MD's. All else equal, an MD will have more doors open to them than a DO. Should they or shouldn't they - different issue.

 

[Krazykritter]

The correlation between how the world really works and how you think it should work is low.

I would really like to hear your opinion on this too.

You seem to insinuate that I am being naive in my post. Why would a hospital care what the initials are after someone's name if both applicants are equal & board certified considering that the vast majority of patients don't have any clue if their physician is a DO or an MD? I know for a fact that in my area, there is absolutely no preference for one or another, but if you've had other experiences; Please share them with us.

Don't worry about offending us. As Lovely Rita said, most of us have pretty tough skin & I would actually prefer to hear some insight if you've had other experiences.

EDIT; But Pilot, the issue is DO vs FMG. I would have to imagine that if an MD will have a negative opinion of a DO, they would be more likely to be of the opinion that the FMG just paid for their degree.

 

[LovelyRita]

Krazy Kritter said that surgeons are a commodity - all that matters is a medical license and board certification. That's a lovely sentiment, but life is more like high school then we'd like to think. Prestige and appearances matter, and DO's aren't as highly regarded as MD's by other MD's. All else equal, an MD will have more doors open to them than a DO. Should they or shouldn't they - different issue.

Well, I appreciate your honesty. I've seen your other posts around here and if I'm not mistaken, you're out in practice? If this is the case, then I like reading your posts from the staff perspective.

I do believe that what you're saying, on the average, is true. I really can't imagine marching down to the academic mecca institution and getting a job--although that would be neat...but I can imagine joining a group or working at a midsize or small community hospital and doing OK, simply because I work with DO surgeons that do so. They have their struggles, but it seems like it's the same things that most surgeons and other specialties (MD and DO) deal with--i.e., malpractice, medicare reimbursement, etc.

I am prepared to remember your words and know that I'll have to work hard and keep a good work ethic to market myself one day, whether it's to other DO's or to MD's.

Thanks.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Well, I appreciate your honesty. I've seen your other posts around here and if I'm not mistaken, you're out in practice? If this is the case, then I like reading your posts from the staff perspective.

I do believe that what you're saying, on the average, is true. I really can't imagine marching down to the academic mecca institution and getting a job--although that would be neat...but I can imagine joining a group or working at a midsize or small community hospital and doing OK, simply because I work with DO surgeons that do so. They have their struggles, but it seems like it's the same things that most surgeons and other specialties (MD and DO) deal with--i.e., malpractice, medicare reimbursement, etc.

I am prepared to remember your words and know that I'll have to work hard and keep a good work ethic to market myself one day, whether it's to other DO's or to MD's.

Thanks.

In practice ... I wish 🙂 I just follow the business of medicine as a hobby and have done a bunch of moonlighting in the community.

I think our opinions are basically similar here. I don't mean to suggest that DO's are doomed to work for the county health department a drive a 1978 Datsun while the MD's roll in the dough. Most doors are open to any surgeon MD or DO. But in some cases, the name matters. You can make the same comparison for "top tier" versus average allopathic schools. Are their grads all that different? Probably not. But the name opens doors.

 

[redsoxfan]

wow, everyone here seems to be missing the point of the OPs post...

 

[uro]

wow, everyone here seems to be missing the point of the OPs post...

I essentially gave up. Even after explaining it again, only 1 person (thx Tired) understood the question. I guess I should've known better than to put DO and carib in the same post -- it seems to bring the osteopathic cheerleaders out of the woodwork no matter what the question pertains to.🙄

But while I'm here, a new question just occurred to me. I wonder how much graduating from an osteopathic surgery residency will effect my employment prospects? Any takers?

 

[Krazykritter]

Uro,

I think we deviated from the subject after pretty much unanimously agreeing that DO was going to be better in the long run than being an FMG.

I hardly consider myself an osteopathic cheerleader since osteopathic medical school is a means to an end for me. I have gotten where I am today by working my ass off & plan to continue doing so on the wards the next two years & as a surgery resident in the 5+ years following. Bottomline is that we can all sit here & make generalizations, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes down to YOUR residency/employment.

As far as going through an AOA residency; I know that in the last two years I have seen chiefs & senior residents graduate (is this the correct term?) from my home program, none of them has had to look far for a job. All have had either fellowship/job offers on their desks early & had the ability to choose what they wanted to do.

Are you going to go from 90 bed community hospital program to attending surgeon at top 10 university? Probably not. But then again you probably wouldn't choose podunk community program over an academic one if you were interested in academic medicine.

 

[LovelyRita]

I essentially gave up. Even after explaining it again, only 1 person (thx Tired) understood the question. I guess I should've known better than to put DO and carib in the same post -- it seems to bring the osteopathic cheerleaders out of the woodwork no matter what the question pertains to.🙄

But while I'm here, a new question just occurred to me. I wonder how much graduating from an osteopathic surgery residency will effect my employment prospects? Any takers?

And did you read what pilotdoc and I wrote? Your question has essentially been answered. No it's not going to affect your employment prospects. You're going to get a job. Period. However, As of right now there are not a lot of DO's at large academic institutions doing surgery. However, a grad of our program is doing a minimally invasive fellowship at CCF.

Does that answer your question? If not, then I/everyone in this thread cannot understand you.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I essentially gave up. Even after explaining it again, only 1 person (thx Tired) understood the question. I guess I should've known better than to put DO and carib in the same post -- it seems to bring the osteopathic cheerleaders out of the woodwork no matter what the question pertains to.🙄

But while I'm here, a new question just occurred to me. I wonder how much graduating from an osteopathic surgery residency will effect my employment prospects? Any takers?

Wow, attendings and residents take the time to answer your pre-med yammerings, and you respond this way? Way to show respect and gratitude.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I essentially gave up. Even after explaining it again, only 1 person (thx Tired) understood the question. I guess I should've known better than to put DO and carib in the same post -- it seems to bring the osteopathic cheerleaders out of the woodwork no matter what the question pertains to.🙄

But while I'm here, a new question just occurred to me. I wonder how much graduating from an osteopathic surgery residency will effect my employment prospects? Any takers?

Sort of confused like the others, while it may seem like the focus was DO vs FMG from the Caribbean, I thought several of us addressed your concern about employment, and few of us who have posted here have ever been accused of being an "osteopathic cheerleader".😕

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

maybe you should focus more on polishing your personality than where you go for medical school.

 

[integra892]

We have a DO on the surgical faculty at my institution. His specialty is minimally invasive surgery. He is probably the most technically skilled surgeon both laparoscopically and with traditional techniques, I have ever seen. While both a DO and a Carribean medical degree have the negatives come time for residency applications, the fact that DOs have their own osteopathic programs and can apply to allopathic programs gives you many more options.

 

[uro]

Wow, attendings and residents take the time to answer your pre-med yammerings, and you respond this way? Way to show respect and gratitude.

I know, I should pat them on the back for answering a question totally unrelated to the one I asked.

What continues to amaze (and I'll go ahead and admit, somewhat amuse) me is that the same DO proponents who didn't understand the question in the first, second or third case, still fail to understand it.

I'm tempted to let this thread go on and on without input just to humor myself, but since I'm slightly more interested in the answer to my question I'll go ahead and spell it out. BTW, anyone who is capable of understanding and responding to this question is already well aware of what I'm about to describe, and those who aren't probably shouldn't have wasted my time with a response in the first place.

So, here we go. I'm very painfully aware of the limitations that will be imposed on me as a result of being a DO or carib grad. Wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise is not something I would suggest. And with that out of the way, let's get to the meat of my query:

A DO grad has two options for surgery. Enter an allopathic surgery program that allows one to be ACGME board certified, or enter an osteopathic surgery program which only allows AOA board certification (and which, as I was informed by a headhunter I called today, is "next to totally worthless.") My question hinges on the degree of job hindrance a graduate of an osteopathic surgery program (particularly in California) is likely to face relative to a DO who graduated from an allopathic, ACGME-approved surgical residency program.

That is to say, has anyone here (and BTW, obviously DO students should feel free to not respond, since they are very unlikely to have the answer to this) had any direct or even indirect experience with problematic employment options upon graduation from a DO surgical residency program? The question is not whether there *is* or *will be* a problem ( unfortunately I already know the answer to that one); the question is how much of a problem is this going to be?

I'll admit it's a question that, although not very hard to understand, is one very few here are likely to know the answer to. Which is fine by me. If you don't know the answer feel absolutely free to withhold any response. It won't hurt my feelings. I promise. And guessing won't be rewarded.

-uro

 

[DrMom]

I have not heard of any of the graduates of our surgery program (general, ENT, or ortho) having any problem whatsoever getting a job.

Anecdotal, yes, but that's all we're going to be able to offer.

 

[uro]

I have not heard of any of the graduates of our surgery program (general, ENT, or ortho) having any problem whatsoever getting a job.

Anecdotal, yes, but that's all we're going to be able to offer.

1. What is "[y]our surgery program" -- ACGME or AOA?
2. I'm not asking whether these AOA surgical grads are employable. For example, in the midwest or some other underserved community I have no doubt that any and all graduates of any surgical program would find employment. My question pertains to the degree of hindrance an AOA surg grad will face (is this the 5th time I've asked this now? Someone help me keep count.)

 

[DrMom]

1. What is "[y]our surgery program" -- ACGME or AOA?

AOA, which is why I responded.

2. I'm not asking whether these AOA surgical grads are employable. For example, in the midwest or some other underserved community I have no doubt that any and all graduates of any surgical program would find employment. My question pertains to the degree of hindrance an AOA surg grad will face (is this the 5th time I've asked this now? Someone help me keep count.)

you're question was about difficulty, I said that I've not heard of anyone having any trouble. I believe that addressed your question.

 

[Sweet Tea]

(is this the 5th time I've asked this now? Someone help me keep count.)

I don't know, if we have such problems giving you an acceptable answer, I don't know if we'll have the ability to count properly...

 

[uro]

AOA, which is why I responded.



you're question was about difficulty, I said that I've not heard of anyone having any trouble. I believe that addressed your question.

No, this absolutely does not answer my question. Again, finding employment *anywhere*, for example in the middle of nowhere, is not an issue for any physician of any specialty. And the answer provides no comparison at all to ACGME DO surg grads. My question centers on the problems an AOA surgical grad will face relative to an ACGME surgical grad (#6).

Preferably, this answer would be couched in terms of a competitive area (e.g., CA, like I mentioned above). However, if you're in the middle of nowhere, then that works too as long as you can compare it to the offers ACGME surg grads are getting (e.g., academic, community-only, etc.).

Why is it I feel like I have to almost spell out the answers to this question in order to get a worthwhile response?

 

[uro]

I don't know, if we have such problems giving you an acceptable answer, I don't know if we'll have the ability to count properly...

{{hugs}}

 

[Bitsy3221]

I know, I should pat them on the back for answering a question totally unrelated to the one I asked.

What continues to amaze (and I'll go ahead and admit, somewhat amuse) me is that the same DO proponents who didn't understand the question in the first, second or third case, still fail to understand it.

I'm tempted to let this thread go on and on without input just to humor myself, but since I'm slightly more interested in the answer to my question I'll go ahead and spell it out. BTW, anyone who is capable of understanding and responding to this question is already well aware of what I'm about to describe, and those who aren't probably shouldn't have wasted my time with a response in the first place.

So, here we go. I'm very painfully aware of the limitations that will be imposed on me as a result of being a DO or carib grad. Wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise is not something I would suggest. And with that out of the way, let's get to the meat of my query:

You are a PREMED posting on a board asking senior medical students, residents and attendings for advice, and getting angry/amused/downright arrogant when these people take the time to respond and offer you advice that you don't want to hear. Perhaps not the best approach--just a thought.

What you, as a PREMED fail to recognize, is what all of these people with far more experience than you already know, (these same people you have accused of "wasting your time") that the question you asked and the advice you have received are not at all unrelated.

A DO grad has two options for surgery. Enter an allopathic surgery program that allows one to be ACGME board certified, or enter an osteopathic surgery program which only allows AOA board certification (and which, as I was informed by a headhunter I called today, is "next to totally worthless.") My question hinges on the degree of job hindrance a graduate of an osteopathic surgery program (particularly in California) is likely to face relative to a DO who graduated from an allopathic, ACGME-approved surgical residency program.

That is to say, has anyone here (and BTW, obviously DO students should feel free to not respond, since they are very unlikely to have the answer to this) had any direct or even indirect experience with problematic employment options upon graduation from a DO surgical residency program? The question is not whether there *is* or *will be* a problem ( unfortunately I already know the answer to that one); the question is how much of a problem is this going to be?
-uro

Thanks for the clarification, but that is one we already know. We (even the MDs among us) know the options for DOs, and the hardship FMG's are going to have when looking for a surgical residency.

The fact is, that your employment opportunites as a surgical attending is based first and foremost on your residency training, and your residency training options are based on where you went to medical school. So you can not, as much as you would obviously like to, separate the issues.

There are lots of post on here regarding the variable (and often lower) quality of AOA surgical residency training programs, and having worked with some I can say that they do not see the bredth of cases and higher acuity care that allopathic surgical residents will have the opportunity to care for. Compare the average PGY3 from an AOA program and the average PGY3 from an allo program, and I think generally the allo resident will have more broad training. (Yes, there are always exceptions) Although I am not a chairman or a chief of staff, I can tell you that in my experiences and what I have heard from surgical faculty, when given two applicants for a faculty position (i.e "a real job"), both DOs, one from an allopathic program and one from an AOA program, I think they will give preference to the allopatically trained grad. California as a whole is one of the most competitive areas of the county to break into, so I dare to extrapolate that the situation would be even more competitive there.

In a nutshell, if you do decide to do an AOA surgical residency, will you get a job? Yes. But you WILL be moderately to severely limited in terms of location, practice environment, etc. All the previous posters were trying to point out (which, ironically, is where YOU missed the point here, not them) is that you may not want to start putting limitations on your career as an attending this early in your educations (you're a PREMED, right? 🙄 ) You may decide that you like academics and want to work someplace other than a small AOA residency program. Or you may decide you love vascular surgery, and that you will have severely limited your chances at getting a fellowship having gone to an AOA program. We aren't missing your point, we just know that the question you ask is not as clear cut and simple as you think it is.

If you want to go DO then go osteopathic, then go for it. You'll get a job someday. If you want to go DO then allo residency, then go for it. You'll still get a job someday, but you may also get the fellowship you wanted and a more high paying position in a location/hospital you'd rather work in. If you want to go FMG, you may get an allo residency and if you do, you'll still get a job.

As far as "how much" of a problem Dr. Uro, DO is going to have on his interview in 2018 when he walks into the Department of Surgery at Kaiser Permanentae in CA for his job interview.....dude, c'mon. There IS no answer to that question. If I knew that answer (heck, if ANY of us knew this answer) I'd have no med school loans since my 1-900-PSYCHIC-MD hotline would have taken care of that. Rather than getting annoyed, take a deep breath, step back, realize you are not even in the starting gate of this long race you are about to start (one many of us are well underway if not finished) and admit that you have asked an unanswerable question. You/We can only make generalizations, and tell you how to avoid potential headaches in the future.

In another note, don't you want to do urology anyway? That's what I got based on your post on 1/3/2007 that says " Me uro. Uro want to do urology." Why not ask the Urology forum your questions?

 

[Freshnstylin]

Premed here. I'm between a rock and a hard place. DO or Carib for med school. My understanding is that if I go DO I can enter a DO Surg residency (without much of a problem no matter what my board scores are, from what I understand), but if I go Carib I have to tough it out in the badass (Allopathic) match.

I really want to be a surgeon. Would it hurt my employment prospects that much to go DO?

Before you laugh too hard in your amusement. Let's go back to your original post real quick. You simply asked if it would hurt your employment prospects to go DO. That was your original question. That definitely was answered. Pilot Doc, Kimberli Cox, etc etc definitely answered your original question. Then, for some reason everyone is supposed to know how to define your intentions. Although I'm sure your question, whatever it maybe this time around probably has yet to be answered.😴

 

[Krazykritter]

👍 👍 Good post, Bitsy. I really appreciate the comments about the immaturity w/ which the OP has repeatedly posted. Being condescending to the people you are asking to help is not the way to get anything done, uro.👎

Get rid of that freaking attitude well before your interviews (if you get them) or everyone will see right through the facade of "I really want to help people."

 

[bigtimesmally]

Although I am not a chairman or a chief of staff, I can tell you that in my experiences and what I have heard from surgical faculty, when given two applicants for a faculty position (i.e "a real job"), both DOs, one from an allopathic program and one from an AOA program, I think they will give preference to the allopatically trained grad. California as a whole is one of the most competitive areas of the county to break into, so I dare to extrapolate that the situation would be even more competitive there.

In a nutshell, if you do decide to do an AOA surgical residency, will you get a job? Yes. But you WILL be moderately to severely limited in terms of location, practice environment, etc. QUOTE]

B U L L S H I T.

graduates from DO programs are landing incredible fellowships and jobs these days. That;s because programs are usually affiliated with other hospitals where residents get to do out rotations and work with well known people in the field, hence getting great references. However I will agree that there are some residency programs out there that I would never want to be a part of, but that also applies to the allopathic world. Please stop spreading the propaganda. The only real limitation is to landing a job is in prestigious MD academic institutions. That's about it. Lot and lots of jobs in california right now which are not filled. They would love to have any capable surgeon, md or do. Ultimately, it depends on YOU and YOUR capabilities and honestly, some good old references, but, then, that also depends on you, because you need to work hard and attain those references.

PGY-1 DO resident and ****ing proud of it.


P

 

[Freshnstylin]

well there you go uro...that pretty much sums it up...good luck figuring things out

 

[dawg44]

Everyone is leaving out one major competitive ADVANTAGE of DO vs MD particularly in the midwest. A much higher percentage of graduates from osteopathic programs go into primary care. The state I graduated from there is one osteopathic school and one allopathic. The Osteopathic school had 54% of graduates in primary care the year I graduated, the allopathic 22%. That is a trend that goes across the country and has been so for numerous years. What that means for a DO surgery grad is lots and losts of patients being sent to you once the DOs in town find out that you are around. Last time I checked medicare, blue cross, anthem, you name it, didn't pay extra for prestige or ACGME accreditation.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Uro,

Good luck with getting into med school. But, seriously, you need to work on the attitude. Publicly insulting people who try to help you is not in your best interests.

You're starting down, for surgery, a 9+ year training path, much of which will be constant criticism, much of it unfounded or downright malicious. You have to develop the ability to say **** you on the inside and thank you on the outside while searching the criticism for any nugget of truth that you could use to be a better doc.

In this case, we didn't initially answer the question you meant to ask (and clarified later in the post) but you initial post was ambiguous. Next time, try saying something like.
"Thanks for all the responses guys. It's helpful to know that getting a residency will be easier from a DO program than a foreign school. What about getting a job after residency? Does the difference between and ACGME and an AOA residency make any difference for a DO's job prospects?"

And my answer to that question is, yes, I think as an overall average, the jobs that are more competitive favor ACGME grads. Same reason that MGH grads have wider job opportunities than Tiny Community Hospital grads. (or even Regionally Respected University Hospital grads) There aren't any "name" DO programs, at least among the MD world. Whether that difference is of any real consequence is up to debate. If I were a graduating DO, I'd be perfectly happy to take a DO residency slot.

 

[mille125]

Uro,

Good luck with getting into med school. But, seriously, you need to work on the attitude. Publicly insulting people who try to help you is not in your best interests.

You're starting down, for surgery, a 9+ year training path, much of which will be constant criticism, much of it unfounded or downright malicious. You have to develop the ability to say **** you on the inside and thank you on the outside while searching the criticism for any nugget of truth that you could use to be a better doc.

In this case, we didn't initially answer the question you meant to ask (and clarified later in the post) but you initial post was ambiguous. Next time, try saying something like.
"Thanks for all the responses guys. It's helpful to know that getting a residency will be easier from a DO program than a foreign school. What about getting a job after residency? Does the difference between and ACGME and an AOA residency make any difference for a DO's job prospects?"

And my answer to that question is, yes, I think as an overall average, the jobs that are more competitive favor ACGME grads. Same reason that MGH grads have wider job opportunities than Tiny Community Hospital grads. (or even Regionally Respected University Hospital grads) There aren't any "name" DO programs, at least among the MD world. Whether that difference is of any real consequence is up to debate. If I were a graduating DO, I'd be perfectly happy to take a DO residency slot.

yes, uro is insulting, condescending, and generally disrespectful....if you think about it, this is the essence of an average surgeon...he should fit right in...

 

[dynx]

B U L L S H I T.

graduates from DO programs are landing incredible fellowships and jobs these days. That;s because programs are usually affiliated with other hospitals where residents get to do out rotations and work with well known people in the field, hence getting great references. However I will agree that there are some residency programs out there that I would never want to be a part of, but that also applies to the allopathic world. Please stop spreading the propaganda. The only real limitation is to landing a job is in prestigious MD academic institutions. That's about it. Lot and lots of jobs in california right now which are not filled. They would love to have any capable surgeon, md or do. Ultimately, it depends on YOU and YOUR capabilities and honestly, some good old references, but, then, that also depends on you, because you need to work hard and attain those references.

PGY-1 DO resident and ****ing proud of it.


P[/QUOTE]

Thats right! Take this sage advice from someone who is not emotionally invested in thinking DO = MD...wait no. Then take it from someone that has real world experience applying for jobs after residency...ummmm, hold on. Take it from a pgy-1 that needs to justify thier decision.

 

[dawg44]

Or take it from a recent DO graduate who had 10 contracts sitting on his desk from 10 different interviews in any city he wanted with the lowest offer starting at 350 and the highest of 650. A poor job market because of being a DO was very hindering indeed.

 

[Playmakur42]

recent DO graduate who had 10 contracts sitting on his desk from 10 different interviews in any city he wanted.

....I think this effectively ends the discussion....

 

[dynx]

Or take it from a recent DO graduate who had 10 contracts sitting on his desk from 10 different interviews in any city he wanted with the lowest offer starting at 350 and the highest of 650. A poor job market because of being a DO was very hindering indeed.

Yeah well I have a 10 inch penis.

 

[dynx]

Yeah well I have a 10 inch penis.

let me expand upon this for those of you with no sense of humor.


We can all be whatever we want to be on-line. You had 10 offers lowest at 350k/year straight out of residency? All in cities you wanted to be in eh?

Was this General Surgery?
What was the call schedule?
What cities? (hell my dad LOVES living in **** creek Idaho so telling me it was all cities you'd love to live in is like the pre-allo forum where the pre-meds tell me its easy to get by on 30k a year and own a home).
Was this the 1 year guaranteed income followed by the "f*ck you buddy bill more patients" enticement offer?

I know when talking to DOs you need to talk in a soothing voice and avoid any sudden movements lest they think you're endangering thier carefully constructed ego. But lets be real here. The guy asked a question and the answer is....
in general, MDs have more opportunities open to them. If you want to practice in the sticks, you too can wade through the job offers with any degree you like...hell, be a vet. Yelling Bull**** aint gonna change that.

 

[bigtimesmally]

B U L L S H I T.

graduates from DO programs are landing incredible fellowships and jobs these days. That;s because programs are usually affiliated with other hospitals where residents get to do out rotations and work with well known people in the field, hence getting great references. However I will agree that there are some residency programs out there that I would never want to be a part of, but that also applies to the allopathic world. Please stop spreading the propaganda. The only real limitation is to landing a job is in prestigious MD academic institutions. That's about it. Lot and lots of jobs in california right now which are not filled. They would love to have any capable surgeon, md or do. Ultimately, it depends on YOU and YOUR capabilities and honestly, some good old references, but, then, that also depends on you, because you need to work hard and attain those references.

PGY-1 DO resident and ****ing proud of it.


P

Thats right! Take this sage advice from someone who is not emotionally invested in thinking DO = MD...wait no. Then take it from someone that has real world experience applying for jobs after residency...ummmm, hold on. Take it from a pgy-1 that needs to justify thier decision.[/QUOTE]


I don't have to justify anything. If that's how you interpret it, that's your choice. Maybe it bothers you that a DO can be happy and proud of being a DO. Well, I'm here to tell you that we rotate through very prestigious MD programs during our residency and there are still a few schmucks like you out there that give us attitude. But, overall, we work side by side and impress the hell out of attendings. Hence, the references and great fellowships. I know the fellowships and jobs that OUR graduates have obtained. It's very impressive indeed. If anyone interested PM me and I can list them.

 

[dynx]

I don't have to justify anything. If that's how you interpret it, that's your choice. Maybe it bothers you that a DO can be happy and proud of being a DO. Well, I'm here to tell you that we rotate through very prestigious MD programs during our residency and there are still a few schmucks like you out there that give us attitude. But, overall, we work side by side and impress the hell out of attendings. Hence, the references and great fellowships. I know the fellowships and jobs that OUR graduates have obtained. It's very impressive indeed. If anyone interested PM me and I can list them.

I'm not bothered. I'm glad you are proud of what you are doing...more people should be like that. I'm also proud of what Im doing, have done and where I have done it, but I don't go around telling people that they are going to have the same opportunities coming out of my school as they are going to have coming out of Havard...and if I did, I would expect to be called a schmuck (not that it doesn't happen anyway). Thats not to say that people at my program don't end up at Top level places, but to claim equivalence is the epitome of blinding yourself to reality to protect your ego. It's lame.

 

[bigtimesmally]

I'm not bothered. I'm glad you are proud of what you are doing...more people should be like that. I'm also proud of what Im doing, have done and where I have done it, but I don't go around telling people that they are going to have the same opportunities coming out of my school as they are going to have coming out of Havard...and if I did, I would expect to be called a schmuck (not that it doesn't happen anyway). Thats not to say that people at my program don't end up at Top level places, but to claim equivalence is the epitome of blinding yourself to reality to protect your ego. It's lame.

When the **** did I ever say they had the same opportunities? I said, DO's today have great opportunities to land fellowships and jobs. I don't give a rat's ass about your ****ing program.

Doesn't sound like you're glad for me. Especially with your first reply to me. Sounds like it bothers you that I have an ego. Good. Look, I don't care to be equivalent to you and to your program. I'm actually aiming higher.

 

[dynx]

When the **** did I ever say they had the same opportunities? I said, DO's today have great opportunities to land fellowships and jobs. I don't give a rat's ass about your ****ing program.

Doesn't sound like you're glad for me. Especially with your first reply to me. Sounds like it bothers you that I have an ego. Good. Look, I don't care to be equivalent to you and to your program. I'm actually aiming higher.

okay