Do the ends justify the means?

[morganegreen]

Hi

I was recently accepted to a PsyD program outside Boston and work at one of top psychiatric hospitals outside of Boston.

I chose to go the PsyD route because I enjoy clinical work over research and because PhD programs are incredibly competitive. I also need to stay in the area for family. The COA over 5 years is going to be $400,000. While I have been working so hard over the last 3 years to work towards my PsyD, $400,000 is a lot of money and does not seem worth it. One avenue people have suggested is doing public service loan forgiveness program - working in underserved locations while paying student debt for 10 years, then the remainder of your loans will be forgiven. However, I have had heard of people not having the remainder of their loans forgiven after serving underserved populations for 10 years - so this does not seem like a trustworthy option.

So, then my next option is to go into private practice as soon as possible after graduation. However, I have no idea how truly feasible that is and how much one would make when starting in private practice.

Overall, I am trying to figure out if I can justify the debt given then earning potential. I would love to hear from other people who have received their PsyD, their experience repaying their loans, and any helpful information regarding private practice.


Thanks

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[borne_before]

1. Do not count on a political solution. PSLF is at the whim of administrations.

2. Do not get about a half million dollars in debt for a freaking psychology degree, it doesn't matter how good it is. The median psychologist makes like 65k.

 

[Temperance]

This thread might be an enlightening read for you: A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

 

[Sanman]

To add to this, private practice is not a solution when you are that in debt. You will need to pay for rent, office supplies, fax machines, etc in addition to coming up with loan payments. Otherwise, you will have to seek forbearance while you start a business and let the interest pile up. There is no way that $400k of debt for this career will make financial sense.

 

[WisNeuro]

Smh...

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Hi

I was recently accepted to a PsyD program outside Boston and work at one of top psychiatric hospitals outside of Boston.

I chose to go the PsyD route because I enjoy clinical work over research and because PhD programs are incredibly competitive. I also need to stay in the area for family. The COA over 5 years is going to be $400,000. While I have been working so hard over the last 3 years to work towards my PsyD, $400,000 is a lot of money and does not seem worth it. One avenue people have suggested is doing public service loan forgiveness program - working in underserved locations while paying student debt for 10 years, then the remainder of your loans will be forgiven. However, I have had heard of people not having the remainder of their loans forgiven after serving underserved populations for 10 years - so this does not seem like a trustworthy option.

So, then my next option is to go into private practice as soon as possible after graduation. However, I have no idea how truly feasible that is and how much one would make when starting in private practice.

Overall, I am trying to figure out if I can justify the debt given then earning potential. I would love to hear from other people who have received their PsyD, their experience repaying their loans, and any helpful information regarding private practice.


Thanks

It would be wise for you to look into good MSW programs given your interests. Far less debt, and decent pay in hospital settings. $400k is an outrageous and oppressive amount of money to have to pay back (you’ll be paying off the interest for the rest of your life) and there is no guarantee that PSLF will be there waiting for you on the other side. It makes much more financial sense to pay less for a good MSW program, start making income 5 years sooner, and still get to do the kind of work you said you were interested in doing.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I believe I know the program of which you speak. The quality of your training and your future abilities as a psychologist are a crapshoot at best. It ain't worth the 400K, especially if financed. We're desperate for more psychologists, and we're not going to hire you coming from that place. 1 or 2 out of every ~5 students are serviceable, and at least 1 in 5 are a disaster.

 

[bluecolourskies]

Here you go Army Medical Scholarships

They will pay full tution and a $2,000 monthly stipend, plus money for books while you are in school. And once you're done with school, you already have a job with full benefits set up!

 

[Sanman]

Just to put this in context for everyone...taking out federal loans at 6.8% for 400k, the standard repayment plan would make the monthly payment $4064.

 

[R. Matey]

I also need to stay in the area for family.

Geographic limitations is an incredibly common reason people consider Psy.D. programs, but you'll likely need to at least relocate for internship and perhaps postdoc.

 

[psych.meout]

Here you go Army Medical Scholarships

They will pay full tution and a $2,000 monthly stipend, plus money for books while you are in school. And once you're done with school, you already have a job with full benefits set up!

That's if they go for HPSP, which requires service as an active duty officer. If they can't move for graduate school, it's unlikely they'd be able to move in the military, which could have them stationed and/or deployed outside the US.

 

[bluecolourskies]

That's if they go for HPSP, which requires service as an active duty officer. If they can't move for graduate school, it's unlikely they'd be able to move in the military, which could have them stationed and/or deployed outside the US.

I hear the Army gives you a stipend if you bring your whole family with you. Just qualify them all as dependents and have them move around with you I am obviously being glib, I have heard this is incredibly hard to qualify non children/spouse as a dependen. But good point! My reading comprehension goes downhill the closer we get to NYE.

 

[Mama Bear]

$400,000??!! I’m assuming that includes COL estimates, but still. $400,000. What kinds of things are you willing to give up for those loans (house, kids, etc.)?

 

[psych.meout]

$400,000??!! I’m assuming that includes COL estimates, but still. $400,000. What kinds of things are you willing to give up for those loans (house, kids, etc.)?

Yeah, it probably includes living expenses, but the tuition alone is $50,000/year.

Clinical PsyD Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data at William James College

And the cohorts are 80-120, so the school is pulling in $4-6 million per year per cohort from tuition.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I personally cannot imagine a scenario in which I would say a doctorate in psychology would be worth $400k, and particularly if the school/program already does not have a stellar reputation. I'd get choked up recommending that much debt for a medical or dental degree, despite both of those careers offering a much clearer path than psychology toward that amount of loan repayment.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just to put this in context for everyone...taking out federal loans at 6.8% for 400k, the standard repayment plan would make the monthly payment $4064.

I mean, who doesn't want to add on an extra monthly payment that is equivalent to the mortgage of a very nice home for essentially the rest of their lives?

 

[Mama Bear]

And the cohorts are 80-120, so the school is pulling in $4-6 million per year per cohort from tuition.

Ah, good for them. They also tout the importance of social justice on their program website, but whatever.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Just to put this in context for everyone...taking out federal loans at 6.8% for 400k, the standard repayment plan would make the monthly payment $4064.

There's no way any of these grads are making those full payments. Taxpayers will eat it in 20 years time though plus interest. I have no idea how these programs are still allowed to exist.

 

[WisNeuro]

There's no way any of these grads are making those full payments. Taxpayers will eat it in 20 years time though plus interest. I have no idea how these programs are still allowed to exist.

Because suckers will keep enrolling in them, and regulating bodies will keep looking the other way.

 

[PsyDr]

1) Boston sucks
2) $80k is like $5400/month after taxes. That leaves about $1400/month after loan repayments unless you’re doing IBR. You’d be better off working at Starbucks.
3) You guys don’t understand economics. It’s a fiat currency, so having a non discharge-able set of loans that have rates above inflation, against which t bills can be created, which creates economic structure,is an extraordinarily wise means of ensuring that the US dollar is stable. Which is why the current political ideas about student loans are never going to happen.

 

[WisNeuro]

Boston? Are we talking about William James? Oh dear...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

To remotely have a shot to cover that cost you'd likely need to make in the top 1-5% of psychologists....and a program like William James is a bottom tier program. Scratch off lotto tickets are likely a better investment strategy than wasting $$ on WJ and running up $400k in debt.

 

[foreverbull]

Hi

I was recently accepted to a PsyD program outside Boston and work at one of top psychiatric hospitals outside of Boston.

I chose to go the PsyD route because I enjoy clinical work over research and because PhD programs are incredibly competitive. I also need to stay in the area for family…

So, then my next option is to go into private practice as soon as possible after graduation. However, I have no idea how truly feasible that is and how much one would make when starting in private practice.

Overall, I am trying to figure out if I can justify the debt given then earning potential. I would love to hear from other people who have received their PsyD, their experience repaying their loans, and any helpful information regarding private practice.


Thanks

We hear folks coming in here frequently saying “I want a doctorate, but I’m unwilling to move.” I know some folks who decided to move their families for grad school and to relocate. It’s doable if the other partner has skills that would transfer to another city/job. The “convenience” is what keeps people going to less reputable and more expensive programs that will saddle them with debt for decades.

Another piece you asked about was private practice. As someone in that area, I can say you will need to invest money right off the bat to start if you want a full-time office to practice in. You’ll pay anywhere between $12-$20k+ for your first year if you need furnishings, office, computer, website, insurances, record-keeping software, etc. And $12k is on the extremely low end with a super cheap office and just a few pieces of furniture from wayfair. If you plan to practice in a wealthy area, prepare to pay way more to start and more for your office. If you don’t have a specialty that sets you apart, you might either lose money your first year or break even as you build a reputation unless you get paneled on insurance, which will provide plenty of referrals on its own but pay wayyyyyy less than cash fees (a colleague of mine had 20-25 clients reimbursed at only $75-90/session and was not doing that well financially because of the business overhead plus taxes she had to remove from it). If you jump in to private practice headfirst, expect it to take at least a few years to fill up and to start making $50K-$100k if you’re cash pay only.

Suffice it to say it’s not easy to do all at once without another income source given the investment required and right out of postdoc, which is a terribly underpaid year of training beyond graduation (after you’ve practiced for free in grad school). Some folks sublet an office for one day and work full time elsewhere to get started so they can ease into it, but that requires working full-time at another job.

Making $100k is doable in PP, but minus business expenses, taxes, health insurance, and paying for your own retirement (and losing money every week you go on vacation)—no such thing as PTO), it lacks the perks of a full-time job and you will have to make a lot to cover those extras. That’s BEFORE paying on your loans, which will continue to accrue interest as you pay the bare minimum each month (10% payments in an income-driven plan won’t even barely touch your loan interest and definitely not your principle). Loans that size will accrue more than $25k/year in interest alone. That’s terrifying and will greatly affect your quality of life and your family’s.

Most master’s level folks in my area charge the same rate I do with 3-4 years LESS training. That is an option, although you’d have to find a specialty to set yourself apart from the sea of master’s level providers.

Food for thought as you consider your path.

 

[PsyDr]

It's worse.

1) Chances of being able to EVER qualify for a mortgage with that debt to income ratio? Near zero.
2) Saving for retirement is almost a nonstarter. And most people can't work until they die. And the average out of pocket cost of medical expenses in retirement is around $250k.
3) Since you won't be able to save much for your children's college, you're not borrowing from them for #2.
4) Wealthy clientele usually are not drawn to a clinician who looks poor.
5) The tax bomb for income based repayments after 20 years? ~$150k in cash

 

[foreverbull]

It's worse.

1) Chances of being able to EVER qualify for a mortgage with that debt to income ratio? Near zero.
2) Saving for retirement is almost a nonstarter. And most people can't work until they die. And the average out of pocket cost of medical expenses in retirement is around $250k.
3) Since you won't be able to save much for your children's college, you're not borrowing from them for #2.
4) Wealthy clientele usually are not drawn to a clinician who looks poor.
5) The tax bomb for income based repayments after 20 years? ~$150k in cash

For graduate loans, repayment is 25 years before the remainder is forgiven, but yes, the forgiven amount would be considered income. If the loans increase each year because interest isn’t covered, the loan could balloon out to $500k or more, depending on how much the person pays monthly for those 25 years. Half a million “income” + job would be a very high tax bracket to be in that year, definitely. Scary to imagine having to pay that back with a private loan!

 

[PsyDr]

For graduate loans, repayment is 25 years before the remainder is forgiven, but yes, the forgiven amount would be considered income. If the loans increase each year because interest isn’t covered, the loan could balloon out to $500k or more, depending on how much the person pays monthly for those 25 years. Half a million “income” + job would be a very high tax bracket to be in that year, definitely. Scary to imagine having to pay that back with a private loan!

Rule of 72: At 7% interest, the principal doubles every 10 years....

Online calculators say that IBR "forgiveness" would be ~$1,025,000. The tax burden on that forgiveness would be $369,000.00.

LOL.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Last I heard, there is no more tax bomb. Still a long time to wait. And pay.

 

[morganegreen]

Boston? Are we talking about William James? Oh dear...

It seems like other have warned me against William James. What has your experience been?

 

[morganegreen]

Just to put this in context for everyone...taking out federal loans at 6.8% for 400k, the standard repayment plan would make the monthly payment $4064.

What would you consider to be too much debt? Obviously it's subjective but curious to hear people's opinions.

 

[WisNeuro]

It seems like other have warned me against William James. What has your experience been?

It's the "rebrand" of MSPP. Sky high tuition, high attrition rates, godawful EPPP pass rates, and their match rates were horrible before the explosion of new internship sites.

 

[beantownpsych]

400k for a psyd from a bottom tier program is just about the worst idea I've heard. 400k for a top tier program would still be a terrible idea (if this existed-- it doesn't. lots of money = terrible programs). Even though my salary is quite high compared to the average psychologist I can't even imagine having paying that off. Loan payment would be higher than my mortgage (and I have a high mortgage)!

 

[Ollie123]

Not much to add beyond seconding everything above. That is...just not a manageable sum of money to take on loans. I did the same mental math others did above and figured you were setting yourself up for a lifetime of immense financial stress. There are some options mentioned above that could help you survive (e.g. IBR) but I wouldn't bank on the long-term stability of any of these and some have significant cons anyways.

I think you'd be far, far better served by considering alternative clinical careers (e.g. LCSW) or just working hard to build your CV for entry into a more legit program. There are lots of them in the area and while some may tilt more research-focused, all will have lots of students go on to clinical careers. Don't let fear of the supposed "competitiveness" drive you into taking on that kind of debt. The opportunity cost of spending an extra 2-3 years building your CV is barely a rounding error compared to the opportunity costs posed by needing to manage that level of debt.

 

[borne_before]

What would you consider to be too much debt? Obviously it's subjective but curious to hear people's opinions.

I'm extremely debt averse. Are you asking about student loans? or in general?

 

[morganegreen]

I'm extremely debt averse. Are you asking about student loans? or in general?

More so student loans, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on general as well

 

[Temperance]

What would you consider to be too much debt? Obviously it's subjective but curious to hear people's opinions.

One of the best pieces of advice I've heard about graduate school is "if you're not having somebody else pay for you to go, then you're doing it wrong".

A common misconception is that you have to pay or go into debt for a doctoral degree. Most clinical psychology doctoral programs are fully funded such that tuition is waived and you're paid a stipend to go. In that light, $400,000 is practically a scam.

 

[foreverbull]

What would you consider to be too much debt? Obviously it's subjective but curious to hear people's opinions.

in 2013, the median debt PhD students took on was $50K (yes, even fully-funded programs), and PsyDs, $120K. I bet that number has increased since then for both given tuition hikes and cost of living increases, but up to $80K seems manageable-ish (only accruing $5K/year interest, which is covered by paying $450 per month or more to pay down the loans faster). Anything above that in our field starts gets really messy come time to plan for mortgages, cars, retirement income, savings, etc.

I'm less conservative on this than most who'll speak about it in this thread, but I've talked to folks in other fields who took out around $80K in loans for graduate degrees, so around that figure seems to be common across fields. I also say this as someone who has debt from a majority-funded PhD program and it's no picnic come licensure-time when you start paying it back. Your spouse essentially inherits the debt by proxy since it'll affect both of you (and children) for years and years.

 

[Temperance]

More so student loans, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on general as well

Think about what you want in your life ~10 years from now. You can calculate backward from that.

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates the median pay for a psychologist at $82,180. Divide that by 12 and you get about $6,848 per month. Rent for a one-bedroom apartment in the Boston area appears to be $2,000, so subtract that. Subtract car payment, fuel, and insurance, if you have that. Subtract health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, phone, Internet, electricity, water, and any other utilities you have. Subtract monthly subscriptions that you might want (e.g. Netflix). How much do you have left over for groceries, necessities, and fun spending?

Large student debt will kill your ability to have a middle-class lifestyle, especially in as expensive an area as Boston and especially if you're aiming to have a family of your own. If you use a student loan calculator, then you can estimate how much you'd be paying per month (and do not consider income-based repayment options or PSLF for now; assume those won't be around by the time you'd get to them) and take that amount into account with the expenses I listed above.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

One of the best pieces of advice I've heard about graduate school is "if you're not having somebody else pay for you to go, then you're doing it wrong".

A common misconception is that you have to pay or go into debt for a doctoral degree. Most clinical psychology doctoral programs are fully funded such that tuition is waived and you're paid a stipend to go. In that light, $400,000 is practically a scam.

We might have had similar mentorship. Someone that mentored me post bachelors told me that you should never pay to get a PhD. They should pay you.

 

[psych.meout]

Ah, good for them. They also tout the importance of social justice on their program website, but whatever.

Social justice is when you have a racially and ethnically diverse university brochure, a la Troy in Community, right?

in 2013, the median debt PhD students took on was $50K (yes, even fully-funded programs), and PsyDs, $120K. I bet that number has increased since then for both given tuition hikes and cost of living increases, but up to $80K seems manageable-ish (only accruing $5K/year interest, which is covered by paying $450 per month or more to pay down the loans faster). Anything above that in our field starts gets really messy come time to plan for mortgages, cars, retirement income, savings, etc.

I'm less conservative on this than most who'll speak about it in this thread, but I've talked to folks in other fields who took out around $80K in loans for graduate degrees, so around that figure seems to be common across fields. I also say this as someone who has debt from a majority-funded PhD program and it's no picnic come licensure-time when you start paying it back. Your spouse essentially inherits the debt by proxy since it'll affect both of you (and children) for years and years.

in 2013, the median debt PhD students took on was $50K (yes, even fully-funded programs), and PsyDs, $120K. I bet that number has increased since then for both given tuition hikes and cost of living increases, but up to $80K seems manageable-ish (only accruing $5K/year interest, which is covered by paying $450 per month or more to pay down the loans faster). Anything above that in our field starts gets really messy come time to plan for mortgages, cars, retirement income, savings, etc.

I'm less conservative on this than most who'll speak about it in this thread, but I've talked to folks in other fields who took out around $80K in loans for graduate degrees, so around that figure seems to be common across fields. I also say this as someone who has debt from a majority-funded PhD program and it's no picnic come licensure-time when you start paying it back. Your spouse essentially inherits the debt by proxy since it'll affect both of you (and children) for years and years.

Those debt stats are frequently cited but there are quite a few large cohort, unfunded PhD programs (e.g. Nova, Alliant, Albizu, Palo Alto) that I'd be curious what they look like separated by program funding.

 

[foreverbull]

Those debt stats are frequently cited but there are quite a few large cohort, unfunded PhD programs (e.g. Nova, Alliant, Albizu, Palo Alto) that I'd be curious what they look like separated by program funding.

That's fair, however, according to this APA article discussing the 2014 study:

"A survey of doctoral graduates from 2013 and 2014 found that 91 percent of the PsyD students and 77 percent of PhD students in clinical, counseling and school psychology programs graduated with debt. The median graduate loan debt was $200,000 for PsyD students, compared to $75,000 for PhDs."

So my earlier numbers were off, and I still expect these numbers to not reflect current median debt.

But point being, 77% of PhD students in these closely-related psychology fields take out loans, and I doubt the majority of these students are in un-funded, large cohort programs. A fair number of students even from funded programs walk out with debt, I'm assuming, given these high percentages.

 

[Dazen]

That's fair, however, according to this APA article discussing the 2014 study:

"A survey of doctoral graduates from 2013 and 2014 found that 91 percent of the PsyD students and 77 percent of PhD students in clinical, counseling and school psychology programs graduated with debt. The median graduate loan debt was $200,000 for PsyD students, compared to $75,000 for PhDs."

So my earlier numbers were off, and I still expect these numbers to not reflect current median debt.

But point being, 77% of PhD students in these closely-related psychology fields take out loans, and I doubt the majority of these students are in un-funded, large cohort programs. A fair number of students even from funded programs walk out with debt, I'm assuming, given these high percentages.

I'm also curious how much of that for funded PhD students was newly accrued debt vs previous loans they still hadn't paid off.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

Following this thread (mostly) just to see the replies.

Disclaimer: I feel a little bit sassy this evening, so thanks in advance for y'all's extended grace.

THat said, $400k for a degree!? (In psychology at that??) Does this degree come with a 10+ mail order spouse that continually cleans and reassures ones self worth??

I Am no statistician (well, okay, I took quantitative stats in grad school), but it is pretty basic math that tells us a $400k degree is psych is about as practical as a large hole in the head.

But hey, if students wish to mortgage their future for a degree program, HOPE all goes well and they reach the finish line, and hope they obtain their dream job right out of school, AND still want to live in their car down by the river, AND donate blood every week so they can (hopefully) eat a meal here and there....well, go right ahead. What could possibly go wrong??

Translation: $400k for a degree in the MH field is just...well...not sane.

(Yes, I said that.)

If people apply to a program that charges $400k for tuition, perhaps this is secretly a test of their mental fitness??

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm also curious how much of that for funded PhD students was newly accrued debt vs previous loans they still hadn't paid off.

I don't know about the APAGS study listed, but if you go back to the APA salary/debt surveys, they specifically asked respondents to report in graduate school debt as opposed to debt accrued prior to graduate school. If I recall correctly, about a third of PhD students had zero debt from grad school in the last one.

 

[R. Matey]

That's fair, however, according to this APA article discussing the 2014 study:

"A survey of doctoral graduates from 2013 and 2014 found that 91 percent of the PsyD students and 77 percent of PhD students in clinical, counseling and school psychology programs graduated with debt. The median graduate loan debt was $200,000 for PsyD students, compared to $75,000 for PhDs."

So my earlier numbers were off, and I still expect these numbers to not reflect current median debt.

But point being, 77% of PhD students in these closely-related psychology fields take out loans, and I doubt the majority of these students are in un-funded, large cohort programs. A fair number of students even from funded programs walk out with debt, I'm assuming, given these high percentages.

Something to keep in mind with stats like these is unfunded Ph.D. programs exist at some professional schools like Fielding, Seattle Pacific, and Pacific University, to name a few. The APAGS study this article mentions lumps these programs together with funded Ph.D. programs, which likely inflates the overall figure. It's probably better to look at the APPIC data where debt is organized by quartile between Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs to get a sense of the distribution. The last year with this level of analysis was in 2015.

(Edit because I suffer from perfectionism: not quite a quartile, but you get the idea).

 

[foreverbull]

Something to keep in mind with stats like these is unfunded Ph.D. programs exist at some professional schools like Fielding, Seattle Pacific, and Pacific University, to name a few. The APAGS study this article mentions lumps these programs together with funded Ph.D. programs, which likely inflates the overall figure. It's probably better to look at the APPIC data where debt is organized by quartile between Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs to get a sense of the distribution. The last year with this level of analysis was in 2015.

(Edit because I suffer from perfectionism: not quite a quartile, but you get the idea).

Percent of applicants with:
No debt Ph.D. = 27% Psy.D. = 9%
Debt <= $50,000 Ph.D. = 61% Psy.D. = 18%
Debt >= $100,000 Ph.D. = 22% Psy.D. = 72%
Debt >= $150,000 Ph.D. = 12% Psy.D. = 49%
Debt >= $200,000 Ph.D. = 6% Psy.D. = 30%
Debt >= $250,000 Ph.D. = 3% Psy.D. = 14%

I'm still only seeing about 1/3 - 1/4 of students graduate with no debt from PhD programs, which is still in the clear minority. The vast majority have some debt from Ph.D. programs.

Also, I'm confused as to why it goes from folks with under $50K debt to folks with >$100K debt as the next step? Did they mean debt >$50K as the 2nd step?

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah, that 50k cutoff is a little odd. Might have just been few enough in that 50-100 range they didn't bother separating it out.

I think its pretty common for folks in fully funded programs to take out small loans to supplement living expenses. Even a little extra can make a big difference at that level and provide some cushion for things like unexpected car repairs. Looks like the majority is under 50k for a PhD.

While I was fortunate I didn't have to do so myself (no dependents, modest COL region for grad school), I personally wouldn't be super-concerned about someone taking out, say 5-10k/year. Not an ideal situation for sure, but that is manageable to pay back. Its when it starts transitioning from "car payment" level debt to "mortgage payment" level debt I think it becomes a very serious issue. Even 150k is insane to me given the typical student loan terms - that's nearly half of PsyDs and 12% of PhDs (though I'm guessing a sizable chunk of those PhDs are really PhD in-name-only degrees from prof schools).

 

[R. Matey]

I'm still only seeing about 1/3 - 1/4 of students graduate with no debt from PhD programs, which is still in the clear minority. The vast majority have some debt from Ph.D. programs.

Indeed, I didn't say otherwise. I said the figures from the article might be inflated. Notice here though the median Ph.D. debt is lower (30k in 2012 and 2015) than what was reported in the APAGS study you linked (75k). Not sure what that difference is about, but my guess was a response bias predominately from people who attended unfunded Ph.D. programs. Open to another interpretation if anyone has one.

Also, I'm confused as to why it goes from folks with under $50K debt to folks with >$100K debt as the next step? Did they mean debt >$50K as the 2nd step?

Looks like they were counting by 5s.

 

[WisNeuro]

50k is pretty much the high end point of what I tell people to consider, and it looks like it covers the clear majority of PhD grads. Aside from that, I'm curious about the data on a more granular level, which we really don't have. Anecdotally, I was in a fairly reasonable CoL medium sized metro from grad school, and there was a wide variety of how much luxury students chose to live. Some of us who were more budget conscious, lived with roommates, and didn't have to have the luxury solo apartments. But I knew a handful, who were still taking out loans, who lived solo in those luxury apartments and drive very nice cars while the rest of us were in 10+ year old beaters.

I'd like to see the mix of those who generally need to take out loans (e.g., high CoL areas) vs. those who choose to take out loans despite being able to get by just fine without loans.

 

[R. Matey]

Anecdotally, I was in a fairly reasonable CoL medium sized metro from grad school, and there was a wide variety of how much luxury students chose to live.

Same. And can confirm that how you live does matter. There were good times had by all, but some folks in the program took lavish overseas trips during the summers.

 

[morganegreen]

We hear folks coming in here frequently saying “I want a doctorate, but I’m unwilling to move.” I know some folks who decided to move their families for grad school and to relocate. It’s doable if the other partner has skills that would transfer to another city/job. The “convenience” is what keeps people going to less reputable and more expensive programs that will saddle them with debt for decades.

Another piece you asked about was private practice. As someone in that area, I can say you will need to invest money right off the bat to start if you want a full-time office to practice in. You’ll pay anywhere between $12-$20k+ for your first year if you need furnishings, office, computer, website, insurances, record-keeping software, etc. And $12k is on the extremely low end with a super cheap office and just a few pieces of furniture from wayfair. If you plan to practice in a wealthy area, prepare to pay way more to start and more for your office. If you don’t have a specialty that sets you apart, you might either lose money your first year or break even as you build a reputation unless you get paneled on insurance, which will provide plenty of referrals on its own but pay wayyyyyy less than cash fees (a colleague of mine had 20-25 clients reimbursed at only $75-90/session and was not doing that well financially because of the business overhead plus taxes she had to remove from it). If you jump in to private practice headfirst, expect it to take at least a few years to fill up and to start making $50K-$100k if you’re cash pay only.

Suffice it to say it’s not easy to do all at once without another income source given the investment required and right out of postdoc, which is a terribly underpaid year of training beyond graduation (after you’ve practiced for free in grad school). Some folks sublet an office for one day and work full time elsewhere to get started so they can ease into it, but that requires working full-time at another job.

Making $100k is doable in PP, but minus business expenses, taxes, health insurance, and paying for your own retirement (and losing money every week you go on vacation)—no such thing as PTO), it lacks the perks of a full-time job and you will have to make a lot to cover those extras. That’s BEFORE paying on your loans, which will continue to accrue interest as you pay the bare minimum each month (10% payments in an income-driven plan won’t even barely touch your loan interest and definitely not your principle). Loans that size will accrue more than $25k/year in interest alone. That’s terrifying and will greatly affect your quality of life and your family’s.

Most master’s level folks in my area charge the same rate I do with 3-4 years LESS training. That is an option, although you’d have to find a specialty to set yourself apart from the sea of master’s level providers.

Food for thought as you consider your path.

This is really helpful information on private practice! I have seen that some masters level folk charge similar rates to PsyD's. In your experience, do you think there is a large pay difference between masters and PsyDs?