DO to MD

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MDLola035

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Can a person who graduated from a Osteopathic school take the MD boards? Just curious. Thanks!

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Don't quote me on this but I think the answer is yes. Sorry for not elaborating; I will try to get more info.
 
Yes, a person from Osteopathic school definitely can take the Allopathic boards and I believe a good number do. The only thing is though that you HAVE to take the Osteopathic boards also. So in essence you'd be taking two boards.

disclaimer:
I'm not in Osteopathic school but this is the gist of it from what I have read on this site.
 
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Yes, you can. Hit up one of the osteopathic mods, they can provide you with a wealth of information.
 
Can a person who graduated from a Osteopathic school take the MD boards? Just curious. Thanks!

Absolutely. The USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Examination- i.e., the "MD boards") are required for application to all ACGME (Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education) residencies. If you are in an ACGME residency, you will be ACGME certified in the specialty of interest. To clarify any confusion regarding the subject of your post, your degree is separate from the residency you train in. There are also residencies that are dually accredited by the AOA and the ACGME. To summarize, a DO can be AOA, ACGME, or AOA and ACGME certified in the specialty they are in, respectively, depending on the residency they train in. As a requirement, all DO students have to take the COMLEX (the "DO boards").
 
Can a person who graduated from a Osteopathic school take the MD boards? Just curious. Thanks!

If you want to apply through the allo match, you actually are going to have to take the USMLE for a lot of programs. So as mentioned above, folks who do this often have to take two boards. This is really a question for the osteo, not allo board though.
 
Moving thread to osteopathic forum, seems to have gotten good answers above but maybe others have insight.
 
Can a person who graduated from a Osteopathic school take the MD boards? Just curious. Thanks!

Of course, but what no one has specifically mentioned yet is that you will still be a DO, not an MD, no matter what boards you take. Based on your thread title I'm wondering if you were thinking that way.
 
Absolutely. The USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Examination- i.e., the "MD boards") are required for application to all ACGME (Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education) residencies. If you are in an ACGME residency, you will be ACGME certified in the specialty of interest. To clarify any confusion regarding the subject of your post, your degree is separate from the residency you train in. There are also residencies that are dually accredited by the AOA and the ACGME. To summarize, a DO can be AOA, ACGME, or AOA and ACGME certified in the specialty they are in, respectively, depending on the residency they train in. As a requirement, all DO students have to take the COMLEX (the "DO boards").

Not exactly true. While it certainly seems to be an advantage to take the USMLE as an osteopathic student, it is not required by ALL residencies. Some require just USMLE step 1 from osteopaths, some require 1 & 2 & some are OK w/ just the COMLEX.
Having said all that, I still advise every osteo wanting to do an allo residency to take it.
 
Good responses so far. Let me just clarify

"MD boards" can mean two different things. First is the licensing examination known as the USMLE. The second is the board certification you take after residency (american board of pediatrics, american board of internal medicine, american board of surgery, etc).

For USMLE - yes, DO students can take them. NO they are not required. Yes they can be helpful (and sometimes required) when you apply to MD residency (also known as ACGME residency). Not all ACGME residency require USMLE. A few will accept COMLEX.

For COMLEX - you DO have to take them (Step 1, Step 2 and PE) in order to graduate.

For specialty boards (aka board certification) - if you completed an ACGME residency, you are eligble to take that specialty board. If you completed an osteopathic residency, you are eligible to take the osteopathic specialty board. There are a few instances where the MD specialty board will allow an osteopathic graduate who completed an osteopathic residency to take the MD specialty board but that topic is beyond the topic of this conversation.

And finally, no, if you graduate from a DO school, you will be a DO. No way to get that MD (well you go back to medical school to obtain one, or you can purchase one that has the value of toilet paper and be the laughing stock of your colleagues). Even if you completed the USMLE, did an ACGME residency, and is board certified by an MD certifying board - you're still a DO. Once an osteopathic physician, you're always an osteopathic physician.
 
Good responses so far. Let me just clarify

"MD boards" can mean two different things. First is the licensing examination known as the USMLE. The second is the board certification you take after residency (american board of pediatrics, american board of internal medicine, american board of surgery, etc).

For USMLE - yes, DO students can take them. NO they are not required. Yes they can be helpful (and sometimes required) when you apply to MD residency (also known as ACGME residency). Not all ACGME residency require USMLE. A few will accept COMLEX.

For COMLEX - you DO have to take them (Step 1, Step 2 and PE) in order to graduate.

For specialty boards (aka board certification) - if you completed an ACGME residency, you are eligble to take that specialty board. If you completed an osteopathic residency, you are eligible to take the osteopathic specialty board. There are a few instances where the MD specialty board will allow an osteopathic graduate who completed an osteopathic residency to take the MD specialty board but that topic is beyond the topic of this conversation.

And finally, no, if you graduate from a DO school, you will be a DO. No way to get that MD (well you go back to medical school to obtain one, or you can purchase one that has the value of toilet paper and be the laughing stock of your colleagues). Even if you completed the USMLE, did an ACGME residency, and is board certified by an MD certifying board - you're still a DO. Once an osteopathic physician, you're always an osteopathic physician.

I don't understand where people are getting this a "few will take the COMLEX." How are all these students getting into great residencies?? I know a whole bunch that did not take the USMLE. In fact, the majority didn't yet they are placing well. :confused:
 
I don't understand where people are getting this a "few will take the COMLEX." How are all these students getting into great residencies?? I know a whole bunch that did not take the USMLE. In fact, the majority didn't yet they are placing well. :confused:

Define great, majority of DO's infact don't take USMLE while there's a growing trend with more and more DOs taking USMLE. Great programs are relative, most don't consider a program as great if they haven't matched there or is in a very undesirable location, or a field with little or no competition. Although there's a general consensus among many DO's that ACGME residencies are well established and provide better training, the reason why AOA is behind is simply due to lack of funding, being fairly new, and also not drawing in more of those superstars. On the side note, AOA should work on post graduate training opportunities for DOs instead of allowing 5-state internship requirement rule, worrying about degree name changes etc.
 
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I don't understand where people are getting this a "few will take the COMLEX." How are all these students getting into great residencies?? I know a whole bunch that did not take the USMLE. In fact, the majority didn't yet they are placing well. :confused:

Because my options were "vast majority, majority, a few, and none" when describing how many ACGME programs will accept COMLEX.

A lot of programs will take COMLEX. But the difficulty lies in the scoring system. If a program is unfamiliar with COMLEX scoring, then how will the program compare you to the rest of the applicant pool. If you scored a 475 on COMLEX 1, is that good or bad? What about a 675? How do those 2 scores compare to someone with a USMLE Step 1 score of 220? or 210? or 195? Are the 2-digit scores comparable between COMLEX and USMLE?

Unless you're applying to a program who sees lots of DO applicants and is familiar with COMLEX scoring ... it's an obstacle. Granted, there are lots of ACGME program who does not see this as an issue. But if you're applying to a program where few if any DOs have applied in the past, then just having COMLEX can hurt you since the scoring system remains nebulous to program directors/assistant program directors.
 
Yes, a person from Osteopathic school definitely can take the Allopathic boards and I believe a good number do. The only thing is though that you HAVE to take the Osteopathic boards also. So in essence you'd be taking two boards.

disclaimer:
I'm not in Osteopathic school but this is the gist of it from what I have read on this site.

Many DOs who are interested in obtaining a good residency take USMLE 1 and 2CK. Some even take USMLE 2CS as well, useful since some of the top ACGME programs require incoming interns to have completed 2CS before starting their intern year.

The added advantage to taking USMLE 1, 2CK, and 2CS is that this entitles you to take USMLE 3 instead of COMLEX 3 upon graduation. While this will prevent you from getting licensure in the "5 states" (likely only until some DO who has taken this route sues for restraint of trade and eliminates these outdated policies), it frees you from the mind sucking burden that is OMM forever.

(you will need to take COMLEX 1, 2CE, and 2PE to get a degree from an osteopathic medical school, however...)
 
Many DOs who are interested in obtaining a good residency take USMLE 1 and 2CK. Some even take USMLE 2CS as well, useful since some of the top ACGME programs require incoming interns to have completed 2CS before starting their intern year.

The added advantage to taking USMLE 1, 2CK, and 2CS is that this entitles you to take USMLE 3 instead of COMLEX 3 upon graduation. While this will prevent you from getting licensure in the "5 states" (likely only until some DO who has taken this route sues for restraint of trade and eliminates these outdated policies), it frees you from the mind sucking burden that is OMM forever.

(you will need to take COMLEX 1, 2CE, and 2PE to get a degree from an osteopathic medical school, however...)

Actually, it's a little more than 5 states (with the biggest one being California). The 5 states that most people reference only have to do with osteopathic internship (although there is overlap).

And "restraint of trade" will be a tough sell ... the courts have typically ruled that regulations of professions remains in the domain of the state legislature and would seldom intervene (only if there is a conflict with law, constitution, procedure, etc). The determination of qualification for licensure for physicians or osteopathic physicians lies within the domain of the state government. So unless it violates a state constitution or the US Constitution, the court system will likely not intervene.

For the vast majority of ACGME program, you do not need usmle 2 (either CK or CS). A good number of applicants are interviewed before having USMLE 2 scores, and the rank list is submitted before a good number of applicants have taken the CS. If you did poorly on Step 1 and want to show a good board score, having Step 2 in hand is helpful. Taking USMLE 2CS just so you can take USMLE Step 3 is a very expensive proposition.
 
Actually, it's a little more than 5 states (with the biggest one being California). The 5 states that most people reference only have to do with osteopathic internship (although there is overlap).

And "restraint of trade" will be a tough sell ... the courts have typically ruled that regulations of professions remains in the domain of the state legislature and would seldom intervene (only if there is a conflict with law, constitution, procedure, etc). The determination of qualification for licensure for physicians or osteopathic physicians lies within the domain of the state government. So unless it violates a state constitution or the US Constitution, the court system will likely not intervene.

For the vast majority of ACGME program, you do not need usmle 2 (either CK or CS). A good number of applicants are interviewed before having USMLE 2 scores, and the rank list is submitted before a good number of applicants have taken the CS. If you did poorly on Step 1 and want to show a good board score, having Step 2 in hand is helpful. Taking USMLE 2CS just so you can take USMLE Step 3 is a very expensive proposition.

What are you saying about CA?? The 5 that require an internship are: MI, FL, OK, WV, and PA. I don't understand what you're saying about CA??
 
Okay, I understand now. Thanks for your clarification.

Because my options were "vast majority, majority, a few, and none" when describing how many ACGME programs will accept COMLEX.

A lot of programs will take COMLEX. But the difficulty lies in the scoring system. If a program is unfamiliar with COMLEX scoring, then how will the program compare you to the rest of the applicant pool. If you scored a 475 on COMLEX 1, is that good or bad? What about a 675? How do those 2 scores compare to someone with a USMLE Step 1 score of 220? or 210? or 195? Are the 2-digit scores comparable between COMLEX and USMLE?

Unless you're applying to a program who sees lots of DO applicants and is familiar with COMLEX scoring ... it's an obstacle. Granted, there are lots of ACGME program who does not see this as an issue. But if you're applying to a program where few if any DOs have applied in the past, then just having COMLEX can hurt you since the scoring system remains nebulous to program directors/assistant program directors.
 
Although no osteopathic intern year is required it has a separate osteopathic board, thus all three COMLEX steps required.

So even if you complete an ACGME residency you have to take all three steps of COMLEX to practice in Cali???
 
So even if you complete an ACGME residency you have to take all three steps of COMLEX to practice in Cali???


That's correct. California is one of a few states that will require COMLEX for licensure. They will not accept USMLE for licensure purposes, even if you completed an ACGME residency.
 
That's correct. California is one of a few states that will require COMLEX for licensure. They will not accept USMLE for licensure purposes, even if you completed an ACGME residency.

Wow ... what a complete pain in the ass. So what's typical for ACGME residencies: COMLEX I + USMLE I, COMLEX II + USMLE II --> residency --> COMLEX III + USMLE III just to get licensed in CA??
 
Wow ... what a complete pain in the ass. So what's typical for ACGME residencies: COMLEX I + USMLE I, COMLEX II + USMLE II --> residency --> COMLEX III + USMLE III just to get licensed in CA??

The CA osteo board's licensing form doesn't have any requirements around USMLE.

Note that there are additional boards you have to take, apparently forever, for your specialty board.

I got my ass kicked by some fellow over in pre-osteo for asserting that you have to take all the COMLEX tests in addition to all the USMLE tests if you go the ACGME route, but the more I look into it, the more I'm assuming that's what will be required.

I'm less concerned about these exams (we'll be taking exams forever) than I am about random ancillary conferences and presentations that are required for Rule 42 et al. I am trying to be a good sport and have a good attitude about it, given that I expect to get nothing back that's even remotely helpful to me from the AOA or the osteopathic community, but jeez.
 
The CA osteo board's licensing form doesn't have any requirements around USMLE.

Note that there are additional boards you have to take, apparently forever, for your specialty board.

I got my ass kicked by some fellow over in pre-osteo for asserting that you have to take all the COMLEX tests in addition to all the USMLE tests if you go the ACGME route, but the more I look into it, the more I'm assuming that's what will be required.

I'm less concerned about these exams (we'll be taking exams forever) than I am about random ancillary conferences and presentations that are required for Rule 42 et al. I am trying to be a good sport and have a good attitude about it, given that I expect to get nothing back that's even remotely helpful to me from the AOA or the osteopathic community, but jeez.

But wouldn't you need to take USMLE II when applying and wouldn't you need to take step III when trying to be certified by that board or whatever?? This is just stupid.
 
But wouldn't you need to take USMLE II when applying and wouldn't you need to take step III when trying to be certified by that board or whatever?? This is just stupid.

No, your specialty board has a "FLEX" exam or similar. USMLE/COMLEX III would not be relevant. Seriously, browse the state requirements on the FSMB site.

I don't see anything that says you have to take both USMLE III and COMLEX III - see earlier posts by group_theory and Old_Mil. I'm just thinking ahead about wanting to be able to practice in more than one state, and killing off both III's preemptively.
 
No, your specialty board has a "FLEX" exam or similar. USMLE/COMLEX III would not be relevant. Seriously, browse the state requirements on the FSMB site.

I don't see anything that says you have to take both USMLE III and COMLEX III - see earlier posts by group_theory and Old_Mil. I'm just thinking ahead about wanting to be able to practice in more than one state, and killing off both III's preemptively.

But wouldn't you need to take USMLE II when applying and wouldn't you need to take step III when trying to be certified by that board or whatever?? This is just stupid.

The CA osteo board's licensing form doesn't have any requirements around USMLE.

Note that there are additional boards you have to take, apparently forever, for your specialty board.

I got my ass kicked by some fellow over in pre-osteo for asserting that you have to take all the COMLEX tests in addition to all the USMLE tests if you go the ACGME route, but the more I look into it, the more I'm assuming that's what will be required.

I'm less concerned about these exams (we'll be taking exams forever) than I am about random ancillary conferences and presentations that are required for Rule 42 et al. I am trying to be a good sport and have a good attitude about it, given that I expect to get nothing back that's even remotely helpful to me from the AOA or the osteopathic community, but jeez.

Wow ... what a complete pain in the ass. So what's typical for ACGME residencies: COMLEX I + USMLE I, COMLEX II + USMLE II --> residency --> COMLEX III + USMLE III just to get licensed in CA??


Lots of misconception. The "boards" that premeds and medical student refer to is the licensing exam (USMLE or COMLEX). The specialty board examination is what you take to be board-certified in that field. They are two seperate entities and should not confused. If you complete the USMLE or COMLEX series, you cannot claim to be board-certified. Someone who is "board certified" means they passed the specialty examination board. Once you're done with COMLEX or USMLE, you're done. For board certification, you must renew it every few years (depending on the board) - something called "maintenance of certification"

The osteopathic medical board in California, for licensure purpose, does not require USMLE, nor does it recognize USMLE. You need either FLEX (very old school), COMLEX, or COMVEX. So to receive an unrestricted license in California as an osteopathic physician, you need COMLEX or COMVEX to satisfy the written examination requirement.

So if you were to complete your USMLE series (1, 2CS, 2CK, 3) and NOT complete your COMLEX series - you are ineligible for licensure in California. If all you have is COMLEX, you are eligible for licensure in California.

As for your typical DO student applying for ACGME residency - usually it's COMLEX 1, USMLE 1, COMLEX 2, COMLEX 2PE, and COMLEX 3 to finish the series. Finishing COMLEX will allow licensure in all 50 states. Not finishing COMLEX will eliminate a few states. The only reason to take USMLE 2CK is to impress residency program (again, about half of the MD applicants applying don't even have USMLE 2 scores yet so it is not weigh as heavily as Step 1 scores). There is absolutely no reason to take USMLE 2CS unless you want to take USMLE 3.

Most residency want their residents eligible for unrestricted licensure in the state where the residency program is located. So if they say "Must take USMLE 3 by the end of intern year" - usually if you talk to the PD or the GME office - they will accept COMLEX 3 in lieu of USMLE 3 (since the purpose is to make you eligible for licensure which COMLEX 3 does). I don't know of any instances where a residency program forced a DO to take USMLE Step 3 (and refuse to accept COMLEX 3).

For specialty board examination (that test you take at the end of residency and/or fellowship) - they don't care if you got your licensure via USMLE or COMLEX ... as long as you have an unrestricted license to practice medicine in the US.

I'm in a university ACGME program. I took and passed all 3 steps of COMLEX. In addition, I took USMLE 1. I didn't take USMLE 2CS, or USMLE 2CK. I didn't take USMLE 3. When I am done with my residency, I am eligible to take the certification exam for my field just like my MD colleagues.

Here are the relevant links to some ABMS (american board of medical specialities) examination boards. Noticed how they don't specifically require USMLE or COMLEX as part of the requirement to take the board certification exam, just an unrestricted license.

American Board of Internal Medicine
http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/general.aspx

American Board of Surgery
http://home.absurgery.org/default.jsp?certgsqe

American Board of Family Medicine
https://www.theabfm.org/cert/cert.aspx

American Board of Radiology
http://theabr.org/DR_Pri_Req.htm

American Board of Pediatrics
http://www.abp.org/




Addenum: FLEX stands for Federation Licensing Examination, which was the 3-part examination MDs took prior to the introduction of USMLE (from 1970-1994). It has nothing to do with specialty examination. My guess is that FLEX is not relevant to any SDN readers.
 
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Lots of misconception. The "boards" that premeds and medical student refer to is the licensing exam (USMLE or COMLEX). The specialty board examination is what you take to be board-certified in that field. They are two seperate entities and should not confused. If you complete the USMLE or COMLEX series, you cannot claim to be board-certified. Someone who is "board certified" means they passed the specialty examination board. Once you're done with COMLEX or USMLE, you're done. For board certification, you must renew it every few years (depending on the board) - something called "maintenance of certification"

The osteopathic medical board in California, for licensure purpose, does not require USMLE, nor does it recognize USMLE. You need either FLEX (very old school), COMLEX, or COMVEX. So to receive an unrestricted license in California as an osteopathic physician, you need COMLEX or COMVEX to satisfy the written examination requirement.

So if you were to complete your USMLE series (1, 2CS, 2CK, 3) and NOT complete your COMLEX series - you are ineligible for licensure in California. If all you have is COMLEX, you are eligible for licensure in California.

As for your typical DO student applying for ACGME residency - usually it's COMLEX 1, USMLE 1, COMLEX 2, COMLEX 2PE, and COMLEX 3 to finish the series. Finishing COMLEX will allow licensure in all 50 states. Not finishing COMLEX will eliminate a few states. The only reason to take USMLE 2CK is to impress residency program (again, about half of the MD applicants applying don't even have USMLE 2 scores yet so it is not weigh as heavily as Step 1 scores). There is absolutely no reason to take USMLE 2CS unless you want to take USMLE 3.

Most residency want their residents eligible for unrestricted licensure in the state where the residency program is located. So if they say "Must take USMLE 3 by the end of intern year" - usually if you talk to the PD or the GME office - they will accept COMLEX 3 in lieu of USMLE 3 (since the purpose is to make you eligible for licensure which COMLEX 3 does). I don't know of any instances where a residency program forced a DO to take USMLE Step 3 (and refuse to accept COMLEX 3).

For specialty board examination (that test you take at the end of residency and/or fellowship) - they don't care if you got your licensure via USMLE or COMLEX ... as long as you have an unrestricted license to practice medicine in the US.

I'm in a university ACGME program. I took and passed all 3 steps of COMLEX. In addition, I took USMLE 1. I didn't take USMLE 2CS, or USMLE 2CK. I didn't take USMLE 3. When I am done with my residency, I am eligible to take the certification exam for my field just like my MD colleagues.

Here are the relevant links to some ABMS (american board of medical specialities) examination boards. Noticed how they don't specifically require USMLE or COMLEX as part of the requirement to take the board certification exam, just an unrestricted license.

American Board of Internal Medicine
http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/general.aspx

American Board of Surgery
http://home.absurgery.org/default.jsp?certgsqe

American Board of Family Medicine
https://www.theabfm.org/cert/cert.aspx

American Board of Radiology
http://theabr.org/DR_Pri_Req.htm

American Board of Pediatrics
http://www.abp.org/




Addenum: FLEX stands for Federation Licensing Examination, which was the 3-part examination MDs took prior to the introduction of USMLE (from 1970-1994). It has nothing to do with specialty examination. My guess is that FLEX is not relevant to any SDN readers.

Wow ... beautiful post. Honestly completely cleared everything up. Thanks a ton!!! :thumbup:
 
This post was so helpful--thanks!

In another thread on a similar topic, someone posted that ACGME fellowship after ACGME IM residency will often/usually require USMLE step 3. Is this true?
 
This post was so helpful--thanks!

In another thread on a similar topic, someone posted that ACGME fellowship after ACGME IM residency will often/usually require USMLE step 3. Is this true?

USMLE Step 3 and COMLEX Level 3 exist primarily for licensure, not for academic purposes. My personal experience is that USMLE Step 3 was unnecessary.
 
let me ask this....

if an MBBS takes the usmle he/she then starts calling themselves "MD"

if a DO takes the usmle he/she cannot use the title MD.

niether an MD nor an MBBS could pass the comlex steps. my point is STICK WITH THE DO!!!!!!
 
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