Do vet school application require all transcripts, even very old ones?

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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latetothegame

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About me: I'm in my late 20s, currently a freshman biology student. Rather than getting a bachelor's degree in my early 20s like many people, I spent two semesters part-time at a community college, but ultimately spent the last 10 years working. I've finally decided to go for my goal of being a vet and make a career change later in life.

Here's my problem: Do vet school applications require you to submit a transcript from every school you have ever attended? Of the 5 classes I took at a community college over a decade ago, I have an A, a B, a C, and two drops. I did the math, and the three graded classes will drag down my grade point average by .1 if they are included for consideration by vet schools. (And having drops doesn't make me look great, either.) The classes I took are completely irrelevant to vet school, were just taken for fun, and will be 14 years old by the time I apply. I'm concerned that in such a competitive environment, that extra .1 reduction in my overall GPA could cost me admission to vet school. If I just don't list that community college on my vet school application, is that considered cheating?

Thanks for any advice!
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The good news is, your more recent grades will most likely be waited higher. Each school compiles your GPA differently too. I liked that LSU calculated our "required course" GPA, and also added in any A's that were science based to help bring the value up! Look into each school and see how they do things. Applying to vet school takes hours and hours of researching which school will be right for you. Best of luck, and congrats on your career change decision! 🙂
 
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Thanks for the replies.

Side question: I also didn't have the best grades in high school. Is it possible to "spin" that on a vet school application as a demonstration that I'm a more mature and committed student now that I'm older and know what I want? Or do they assume "lackadaisical teenagers grow up to be inherently lackadaisical 30-somethings", even if I get good grades now?
 
twelvetigers said:
Lol. #7, 30ACT - not too bad... shame it went downhill from there huh.
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it all depends on how many people were in your HS class.... if you only had 10 students, you might have a problem :laugh: My graduating class had over 350, so I'm proud of my teens.
(Yes, I'm bitter that your rank was slightly better than mine.)

And totally random, but what do you put if you were homeschooled? #1? haha
 
cowgirla said:
it all depends on how many people were in your HS class.... if you only had 10 students, you might have a problem :laugh: My graduating class had over 350, so I'm proud of my teens.
(Yes, I'm bitter that your rank was slightly better than mine.)

And totally random, but what do you put if you were homeschooled? #1? haha
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There were like 120 of us. It was a 3.8 for what it's worth, and I never studied and who knows. Seems pretty irrelevant.
 
latetothegame said:
If I just don't list that community college on my vet school application, is that considered cheating?
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Yes, it would be, because you attest to the accuracy and completeness of your application. So leaving something out would be fraudulent.

That said, let me help make you feel better. I'm a UMN CVM student. One of the transcripts I had to send them was from my one semester at that very school, where I had a GPA of 0.0. Try and imagine how embarrassing submitting THAT transcript was.... 😉
 
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I think you're safe in excluding any courses you never actually transferred for credit.

For instance, back in 2002 when I was a jackass, I took two writing courses. I failed one and got an impressive C in the other. When I applied to my current university, almost 10 years later, I didn't include those courses in my transfer credits. I retook those courses, which appear on my current transcript. For all intents and purposes, those original courses have disappeared into the ether.

I do have a small ethical twinge about this, but I've rationalized it considering that the courses were not science classes and never factored into the degree I'm getting. Equally, it was so long ago that it seems almost idiotic to dredge them up.

That said, I paid out of pocket, so there's no financial aid record of those courses.

I'm not advocating this as an admissions strategy, by any means, but it does illustrate that there are some circumstances where old courses may not need to factor into your current application.
 
LetItSnow said:
Yes, it would be, because you attest to the accuracy and completeness of your application. So leaving something out would be fraudulent.
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There is also this.

Which is probably why I will end up shipping that transcript, in retrospect.

In the end, it comes down to what you find morally acceptable, I guess. I want to present the best application possible, but I definitely don't want to get in on a scam, regardless of how insignificant.

But... there definitely are some loopholes that you can slide things through, in the interest of fully fleshing out the question.
 
I think if there are actual grades on a transcript that can be calculated into your GPA, then the transcript needs to be sent. However, if you started a semester at a school and withdrew, there are no grades on a transcript.
 
It's definitely required to send all transcripts regardless of whether they reflect poorly on you. Even if you retake the courses. Many of us returning students have classes we would like to forget and wish we would not judged on. If you're just starting out then you have complete control over the rest of your grades. Just kick ass now and explain those grades on your application when the time comes. Some universities allow you to petition to have grades from a certain time period not considered. Just start reading up on all the schools and learn about their evaluation procedures.

And again - most importantly - kick ass now - get As, volunteer, get good experience, and show them what you're made of now.

Good luck!!!
 
Dsmoody23 said:
For instance, back in 2002 when I was a jackass [...]
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:laugh:

Dsmoody23 said:
In the end, it comes down to what you find morally acceptable, I guess. I want to present the best application possible, but I definitely don't want to get in on a scam, regardless of how insignificant.

But... there definitely are some loopholes that you can slide things through, in the interest of fully fleshing out the question.
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Yeah, I'd definitely send all transcripts in so that you don't jeopardize your application. I mean... if for some odd reason the adcom finds out that you omitted one somehow, that in itself could technically be grounds for throwing your app away (or even worse, rescind their offer). That being said, I personally omitted one transcript from my apps :shrug:. Circumstances were a lil different though.

As for including improvement from high school, I wouldn't unless you're including it to talk about coming from a disadvantaged background. Esp since it's been a decade ago that you were a high schooler, I don't think it matters all that much. In fact, I think they'd be concerned that perhaps you think that it's normal for people to not mature between their teens and late 20s. If you were a traditional applicant at the ripe age of 20, it might be relevant, but even then it's kind of sketchy.
 
Minnerbelle said:
:laugh:



Yeah, I'd definitely send all transcripts in so that you don't jeopardize your application. I mean... if for some odd reason the adcom finds out that you omitted one somehow, that in itself could technically be grounds for throwing your app away (or even worse, rescind their offer). That being said, I personally omitted one transcript from my apps :shrug:. Circumstances were a lil different though.

As for including improvement from high school, I wouldn't unless you're including it to talk about coming from a disadvantaged background. Esp since it's been a decade ago that you were a high schooler, I don't think it matters all that much. In fact, I think they'd be concerned that perhaps you think that it's normal for people to not mature between their teens and late 20s. If you were a traditional applicant at the ripe age of 20, it might be relevant, but even then it's kind of sketchy.
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I've heard about professional school kicking people out even after you've started if they found out you omitted information from your application - transcripts specifically.

As a person who would love to drop some of my less successful semesters from my record but can't because they are included on my transcript no matter what because that's the university I graduated from - I find it disheartening to hear that people would make a choice to do this. Its dishonest and in my mind its cheating. I am working very hard to overcome my lower overall GPA because of poor choices I made as an 18 year old. I would like to think I'm on an even playing field - but it sounds like I'm not.
 
^If doing the right thing doesn't seem convincing to you there's always the National Student Clearinghouse to prod you in that direction.
 
Emiloo4 said:
I liked that LSU calculated our "required course" GPA, and also added in any A's that were science based to help bring the value up!
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Would that count animal science classes also?
 
Cypress said:
I've heard about professional school kicking people out even after you've started if they found out you omitted information from your application - transcripts specifically.
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Which is why I don't recommend it.

In my case though, this one teeny transcript with just 1 course on a quarter system from back in high school would only have helped me. This was not a case of concealing anything for my gain. I kinda doubt vet school would kick me out now because I didn't send them one of two transcripts showing that I was a math prodigy back in the day.

And reasonable attempts were made to procure the transcript. I actually tried pretty hard. I couldn't figure out what my student ID number was from so many years ago... and I couldn't look it up because they only send it to the email they had on file (which was my aol account from eons ago), AND no response from admin. I was kinda stuck. I was not about to trek out to CA just to knock on their door to find my transcript. I was advised by my health professions advisor to just leave it... so I did. Being as neurotic as I am, I'm pretty sure I talked to at least one vet school to ask for their opinion.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Which is why I don't recommend it.

In my case though, this one teeny transcript with just 1 course on a quarter system from back in high school would only have helped me. This was not a case of concealing anything for my gain. I kinda doubt vet school would kick me out now because I didn't send them one of two transcripts showing that I was a math prodigy back in the day.

And reasonable attempts were made to procure the transcript. I actually tried pretty hard. I couldn't figure out what my student ID number was from so many years ago... and I couldn't look it up because they only send it to the email they had on file (which was my aol account from eons ago), AND no response from admin. I was kinda stuck. I was not about to trek out to CA just to knock on their door to find my transcript. I was advised by my health professions advisor to just leave it... so I did. Being as neurotic as I am, I'm pretty sure I talked to at least one vet school to ask for their opinion.
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I have to say I am so grateful you posted the details to your story - I was feeling very frustrated knowing that people applying or already in vet school had cheated the system to some extent. The only thing I am struggling with in my application is over coming my average undergrad GPA - and this is almost impossible to do when you've taken as many classes as I have. So to hear that people wouldn't use a transcript because it would hurt their chances was so disheartening.

Your situation is completely different - and understandable.

I heard about a girl that was in dental school who had failed out of pharm school and when she applied to dental school she didn't tell them about her experiences in pharm school - she got in and was in the program and they found out she had lied on her application. They tried to kick her out but with a lawyers help she was able to stay in. This was what I was referring to.

Like I said before - we all have things we would like to go back and erase or do over - choosing to leave out a transcript because it would negatively affect your chances of getting into vet school - that is dishonest - and beyond morals - its cheating the system to your advantage - pretty lame if you ask me.
 
Cypress said:
I have to say I am so grateful you posted the details to your story - I was feeling very frustrated knowing that people applying or already in vet school had cheated the system to some extent. The only thing I am struggling with in my application is over coming my average undergrad GPA - and this is almost impossible to do when you've taken as many classes as I have. So to hear that people wouldn't use a transcript because it would hurt their chances was so disheartening.

Your situation is completely different - and understandable.

I heard about a girl that was in dental school who had failed out of pharm school and when she applied to dental school she didn't tell them about her experiences in pharm school - she got in and was in the program and they found out she had lied on her application. They tried to kick her out but with a lawyers help she was able to stay in. This was what I was referring to.

Like I said before - we all have things we would like to go back and erase or do over - choosing to leave out a transcript because it would negatively affect your chances of getting into vet school - that is dishonest - and beyond morals - its cheating the system to your advantage - pretty lame if you ask me.
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Meh.

It's inherently an un-level playing field, and trying to pretend that everyone is starting off from some sort of equal standing is a ridiculous assumption to make.

If you're not wealthy, you're already starting on the 10 yard line while a good portion of your competition was pretty much born at the 95.

If an applicant can afford the best academic preparation, the best GRE prep courses, and can fully concentrate on school because they don't need to work during undergrad, that's already an unfair advantage far beyond anything mentioned in this thread.

Beyond that, even living in the right state determines your chances of success on a significant level.

The admissions process dresses up like a meritocracy but it's engineered with countless weird loopholes and unfair advantages. If you're going to make a value judgement about morals and fairness, at least cover the spectrum.
 
Dsmoody23 said:
Meh.

It's inherently an un-level playing field, and trying to pretend that everyone is starting off from some sort of equal standing is a ridiculous assumption to make.

If you're not wealthy, you're already starting on the 10 yard line while a good portion of your competition was pretty much born at the 95.

If an applicant can afford the best academic preparation, the best GRE prep courses, and can fully concentrate on school because they don't need to work during undergrad, that's already an unfair advantage far beyond anything mentioned in this thread.

Beyond that, even living in the right state determines your chances of success on a significant level.

The admissions process dresses up like a meritocracy but it's engineered with countless weird loopholes and unfair advantages. If you're going to make a value judgement about morals and fairness, at least cover the spectrum.
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Choosing to not disclose poor transcripts is not the same thing as your financial situation growing up or the support you had while in undergrad, or what state you live in. Not the same thing at all. Those are things you don't have control over - being truthful and honest on your application is something you have complete control over.

I was not "born at the 95 yard line" and I take issue with the assumption that most people applying to vet school were. No - life is not an even playing field - neither is the educational system - this does not give anyone the right to lie on their application to their benefit.

The right thing to do would be to discuss the situations that contributed to the poor grades and discuss the hardships you have faced that made getting to vet school harder than it might have been for others.

I failed Algebra as an 18 year old - damn that sucks - I was an idiot - but was it because I had poor math education during my elementary years and struggled with math my whole life - maybe a little bit - but did it have more to do with the fact that I needed to learn responsibility in going to class and toughing out through the hard stuff - yeah. Did I struggle the semester my grandfather died? Yeah - but I'm not the only one who's lost a loved one while in college.

We all have reasons why we struggled with grades in the past - does that give us the right to pretend it never happened? No. Simple as that.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I should clarify that my intent wasn't getting advice on how to cheat, I wanted to know if it's cheating to exclude a transcript from a long time ago.
 
Interesting. I know a veterinary student who omitted an entire semester at an entire college (just never sent the transcript and never brought up what happened in that magical gap in time).

I thought they could check on that stuff? Like Bunnity mentioned?
 
latetothegame said:
Thanks for all the replies. I should clarify that my intent wasn't getting advice on how to cheat, I wanted to know if it's cheating to exclude a transcript from a long time ago.
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Absolutely nobody thinks that was your intent, latetothegame. It's a fairly common question for people to ask. So don't sweat it.

Dsmoody23 said:
The admissions process dresses up like a meritocracy but it's engineered with countless weird loopholes and unfair advantages. If you're going to make a value judgement about morals and fairness, at least cover the spectrum.
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I actually agree with that. But that doesn't make it right for an applicant to certify the truthfulness of their application when they know it to be otherwise. It's not about whether the application process is fair.

It's like the other argument that gets touted sometimes: "They don't have any right to know <X>." (Usually this one comes up regarding the question about what you've done with time you haven't been working or in school.)

I agree that they don't have much right to know that. But in my mind, the ethically responsible choices, then, are to give them the info, not apply, or apply with a statement saying something like "I decline to answer this question because I believe it to be unnecessarily invasive."

But to omit it and then agree that your application is complete and correct to the best of your knowledge? That's not ethical, and there's no getting around it.

I actually like that this thread comes up fairly regularly ... I have a tendency to fall into the trap of thinking "gosh golly, vet people are so neat that they all must be awesome people." Threads like this remind me that someday when I own a clinic, I'll need to do an exceptionally thorough review of the history of any finalist candidates for jobs, just to weed out the people who think it's somehow ok to lie because the world is an unfair place.

These comments were meant generally, not at you specifically Dsmoody. I know you already made it clear you'd prefer to get in on your own merit without a scam.
 
Cypress said:
Choosing to not disclose poor transcripts is not the same thing as your financial situation growing up or the support you had while in undergrad, or what state you live in. Not the same thing at all. Those are things you don't have control over - being truthful and honest on your application is something you have complete control over.

I was not "born at the 95 yard line" and I take issue with the assumption that most people applying to vet school were. No - life is not an even playing field - neither is the educational system - this does not give anyone the right to lie on their application to their benefit.

The right thing to do would be to discuss the situations that contributed to the poor grades and discuss the hardships you have faced that made getting to vet school harder than it might have been for others.

I failed Algebra as an 18 year old - damn that sucks - I was an idiot - but was it because I had poor math education during my elementary years and struggled with math my whole life - maybe a little bit - but did it have more to do with the fact that I needed to learn responsibility in going to class and toughing out through the hard stuff - yeah. Did I struggle the semester my grandfather died? Yeah - but I'm not the only one who's lost a loved one while in college.

We all have reasons why we struggled with grades in the past - does that give us the right to pretend it never happened? No. Simple as that.
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I'm excited by how quickly you connected the dots from not reading my post to patting yourself on the back.
 
LetItSnow said:
I actually agree with that. But that doesn't make it right for an applicant to certify the truthfulness of their application when they know it to be otherwise. It's not about whether the application process is fair.

It's like the other argument that gets touted sometimes: "They don't have any right to know <X>." (Usually this one comes up regarding the question about what you've done with time you haven't been working or in school.)

I agree that they don't have much right to know that. But in my mind, the ethically responsible choices, then, are to give them the info, not apply, or apply with a statement saying something like "I decline to answer this question because I believe it to be unnecessarily invasive."

But to omit it and then agree that your application is complete and correct to the best of your knowledge? That's not ethical, and there's no getting around it.

I actually like that this thread comes up fairly regularly ... I have a tendency to fall into the trap of thinking "gosh golly, vet people are so neat that they all must be awesome people." Threads like this remind me that someday when I own a clinic, I'll need to do an exceptionally thorough review of the history of any finalist candidates for jobs, just to weed out the people who think it's somehow ok to lie because the world is an unfair place.
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I'm in full agreement with this.

My original post in this thread was was in the vein of: "If they don't ask, do you have a responsibility to tell them?"

And the answer to that is unequivocally 'No.' I don't plan on filling my application with every negative detail of my life, in the interest of full disclosure, unless there are specific questions that address that information.

But it's definitely a different ball game when you sign your name to a statement verifying completeness.
 
LetItSnow said:
I have a tendency to fall into the trap of thinking "gosh golly, vet people are so neat that they all must be awesome people."
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Aren't you old people supposed to bring life experience to the table? Very disappointed in your naivety. 🙄

I've def seen waaaaay more overt cheaters in vet school than I did in UG.
 
Dsmoody23 said:
And the answer to that is unequivocally 'No.' I don't plan on filling my application with every negative detail of my life, in the interest of full disclosure, unless there are specific questions that address that information.
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Oh hell no. I'd never advocate bringing up things that may lower your chances unless you absolutely have to because it's the direct answer to a specific question.

And even then, I think you have to do your best to frame it as positively as you can, while still being honest. For instance, with my academic buffoonery I gave it a sentence or two explaining what happened, but then three or four sentences contrasting how well I had done later.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Aren't you old people supposed to bring life experience to the table? Very disappointed in your naivety. 🙄

I've def seen waaaaay more overt cheaters in vet school than I did in UG.
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For serious.

The pre-vets at my school live in a moral vacuum, only outdone by the pre-med folks.

I can't imagine what they'll be like once there's actual stress and real competition to contend with.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Aren't you old people supposed to bring life experience to the table? Very disappointed in your naivety. 🙄

I've def seen waaaaay more overt cheaters in vet school than I did in UG.
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No need to italicize that one, MB, because it's true. 😛

I've always been a bit of an optimist when it comes to trusting people. I know it's hard to believe, given my bouts of cynicism here, but.....
 
Minnerbelle said:
Aren't you old people supposed to bring life experience to the table? Very disappointed in your naivety. 🙄

I've def seen waaaaay more overt cheaters in vet school than I did in UG.
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Was reading an article the other day about stealing in bookstores, and someone who had worked in a school bookstore claimed the med students were the worst thieves. 😱
 
Minnerbelle said:
So true. We should start a thread that lists topics for threads that you should only start at your own peril so that unsuspecting newbies get fair warning.
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No worries, I'm not new to the internet, so I know it's like that with all communities. I have a friend who runs a dessert blog - which one would think is a cute and innocuous topic - and she has to moderate flame wars between people viciously insulting each other over things like which bakery makes the best muffins. Whatever the topic, if people are invested in it, everything becomes a debate.
 
Dsmoody23 said:
There is also this.

Which is probably why I will end up shipping that transcript, in retrospect.

In the end, it comes down to what you find morally acceptable, I guess. I want to present the best application possible, but I definitely don't want to get in on a scam, regardless of how insignificant.

But... there definitely are some loopholes that you can slide things through, in the interest of fully fleshing out the question.
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Keep in mind that you have already identified yourself on this forum and Adcomms do visit this forum.
 
dyachei said:
Keep in mind that you have already identified yourself on this forum and Adcomms do visit this forum.
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I guess I'll just have to hope that they actually read the thread, instead of stopping at the 4th post and taking it out of context.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Aren't you old people supposed to bring life experience to the table? Very disappointed in your naivety. 🙄

I've def seen waaaaay more overt cheaters in vet school than I did in UG.
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Really? Perhaps it's the school or perhaps I am naive as well.

Or perhaps coming from such a slimy industry perhaps my standards are so low I can't help but be impressed with awesomeness and honesty of vet students.

I can only recall 1 student cheating here and he no longer at our school.
 
Dsmoody23 said:
For serious.

The pre-vets at my school live in a moral vacuum, only outdone by the pre-med folks.

I can't imagine what they'll be like once there's actual stress and real competition to contend with.
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For what it's worth, people in my class have been incredibly nice about sharing study guides, group review sessions, etc. There are people here who are overly competitive about grades, and I'd be surprised if no one ever cheated, but (my own personal, very limited experience with) vet school isn't anywhere near what you might imagine based on your undergrad.
 
Alhazred said:
For what it's worth, people in my class have been incredibly nice about sharing study guides, group review sessions, etc. There are people here who are overly competitive about grades, and I'd be surprised if no one ever cheated, but (my own personal, very limited experience with) vet school isn't anywhere near what you might imagine based on your undergrad.
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Ditto this. During orientation, all professors stressed that the competition was over... We're all in now, and we should all focus on graduating. They'll help us as much as possible, but we should not hesitate to help each other as well. My class, at least, seems to have taken that advice to heart.
 
StartingoverVet said:
Really? Perhaps it's the school or perhaps I am naive as well.

Or perhaps coming from such a slimy industry perhaps my standards are so low I can't help but be impressed with awesomeness and honesty of vet students.

I can only recall 1 student cheating here and he no longer at our school.
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Oh I didn't mean to say that vet school is full of cheaters. That's hardly the case. I don't think I'd hesitate for a second with 95% of my classmates if they came and asked me to loan them money. And I'd fully trust a majority of my classmates to do their part well in a group assignment (as in, I would focus just on my part and trust them with theirs). There's only 1 person I avoid taking a test next to because I felt uncomfortable eye veering and kinda sketchy behavior during an exam.

BUT, when it comes to more tempting situations (more analogous to the omitting transcripts thing), like collaborating on "do not discuss with others" graded assignments, I see people deviating from that all the time. Same with online quizzes that give you answers at the end. And the worst of it I'd have to say prob is school specific, because only CSU is dumb enough to have such assignments, but the "closed book, take home, online exams when on the ranking system rather than a gpa system" brought out dishonesty in people. Overall I can't say that I trust a majority of my classmates on situations where people are likely to think "well.... it's not going to hurt anyone" and they have lots to gain.

I think a big part of it is comparatively speaking too. Yes, compared to the public at large, or I'd imagine a slimy profession or classes full of goof-offs, vet school would be a moral haven. I'm personally from a school where the honor code was pretty much the bible. Thanks to the honor code, you self-schedule your finals so that everyone takes them at different times, with the expectation that no one talks about the exam with others. The most I've ever heard anyone break the rules on that was if they admitted that they thought they did well/poorly on the exam. I've never heard anyone actually ask or disclose content of the exam, and I've never even heard of anyone else having heard of those things happening. I'm sure that it does happen to a certain degree, but it happens so little that people generally believe that the system is fair and works. I would not feel comfortable with such a system in vet school based on what I've seen thus far. I don't think it's so much that vet students are more dishonest, as much as it is that the setup/culture of vet school isn't conducive to keeping students honest in such situations.
 
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