DO vs. Caribbean MD

[MightyMoose]

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Moose, your avatar is pure awesome! 😀

Thanks. 🙂

I see 14 future Neurosurgeons from the DO side, 7 (combined, without any details of what type of degrees, training, etc, the Non-US IMG had OR what the US IMGs did before matching) from the IMG side.

14 > 7 ???

It's not 7, it's really 3. Four of the 7 are NON-US IMG's.

As a whole, in answer to the OP's question, there are DO specific residencies that you can match into, so that means that you can match into most things through DO programs, without even having to match ACGME. This is partly because you really won't have a shot at ACGME Neurosurgery, Derm, Optho, etc. as a DO. It's just so competitive regardless of the degree and if you're not an Ivy grad or don't go to a school that has a program in said specialty (i.e., Jefferson for Optho), especially when the MD counterparts applying for the same positions most likely have research, publications, etc. in that field, the DO's just aren't going to get a shot there.

As far as the IMG's who go Neurosurgery or other competitive specialties, those guys probably cured some disease in a small country or their mom/dad was able to pull strings at those hospitals. Granted this is an exaggeration, but not by much. If you want neurosurgery or another competitive field it is going to be an uphill battle as an MD or a DO, but as an IMG you will be facing an even harder challenge.

 

[MightyMoose]

people generally know what an MD is. but alot of people dont know what a DO is and you may have to explain what it is if you get asked.

it's not that they have a negative view of DO's, i just wouldn't want to keep answering what my title means to patients.

Your patients won't know, but if they ask you can just tell them. It's easy enough. I went to an Osteopathic medical school and trained and was board certified in X specialty at Y institution, my total training time was 12 years including undergrad, medical school, and residency. Now I am certified to be able to shove my finger in your butt and you're going to pay me to do it. End of story.

 

[samuraiR]

Your patients won't know, but if they ask you can just tell them. It's easy enough. I went to an Osteopathic medical school and trained and was board certified in X specialty at Y institution, my total training time was 12 years including undergrad, medical school, and residency. Now I am certified to be able to shove my finger in your butt and you're going to pay me to do it. End of story.

LOL, u win👍

 

[Meerkatology]

Your patients won't know, but if they ask you can just tell them. It's easy enough. I went to an Osteopathic medical school and trained and was board certified in X specialty at Y institution, my total training time was 12 years including undergrad, medical school, and residency. Now I am certified to be able to shove my finger in your butt and you're going to pay me to do it. End of story.

random guess, X = EM?

 

[JaggerPlate]

it's not that they have a negative view of DO's, i just wouldn't want to keep answering what my title means to patients.

I think the 'telling patients what it means all the time' might be another SDN myth. It was brought up in the Osteopathic forums once, and a handful of residents said that in their 3-6 years of residency (obviously different people in different fields) said they have gotten the question maybe 1-2x (over the course of 3-6 years) and it took them 20 seconds to explain.

 

[samuraiR]

I think the 'telling patients what it means all the time' might be another SDN myth. It was brought up in the Osteopathic forums once, and a handful of residents said that in their 3-6 years of residency (obviously different people in different fields) said they have gotten the question maybe 1-2x (over the course of 3-6 years) and it took them 20 seconds to explain.

i dont know about you...but i want that 40 seconds of my life back

 

[Algophiliac]

i dont know about you...but i want that 40 seconds of my life back

As opposed to the years you'd be wasting reapplying to MD schools?

It seems as though DO's are fairly equal to MD's in most specialties, but if you're looking at the more competitive specialties, it may be better to apply solely MD, if only for security reasons. However, I'm guessing there might be a future push for more equality between the two degrees, so this may change?

 

[samuraiR]

As opposed to the years you'd be wasting reapplying to MD schools?

It seems as though DO's are fairly equal to MD's in most specialties, but if you're looking at the more competitive specialties, it may be better to apply solely MD, if only for security reasons. However, I'm guessing there might be a future push for more equality between the two degrees, so this may change?

dude i was kidding...

 

[JaggerPlate]

i dont know about you...but i want that 40 seconds of my life back

Lol.

Maybe it's just me too (I'm a very pro-DO guy), but I never really mind explaining it. If you can convey the message quickly and clearly (while using some key 'talking points' that people understand and internalize), most people seem to like the idea, and understand that DOs are 'real doctors.' Again though, I rarely explain. I guess I'm a bit spoiled though because everyone in my family (and a lot of my extended family) have seen the same DO family practitioner for 20 years, my aunt works at a hospital in Long Beach and gets a lot of exposure to DOs via Western University, and some of my close friends watched big brother/Dr. 90201 so knew what a DO was via Will Kirby, DO.

 

[Emerica]

This wouldn't even be a question for me. I would go DO no doubt. What is important to me is becoming a physician, whether I am a DO or an MD, I will still be able to do what I want to do. In your comparison, the DO route is much more likely to lead to being a physician than Caribbean MD; so, go DO and don't look back.

 

[osteohopeful09]

How can anyone be asking this question seriously, after spending ANY amount of time here on studentdoc or valuemd.

There is no question, I am wondering if you are trying to start a flame war.

Life will be INFINITELY easier for you to go US DO instead of Carib.

Carib has it's purpose, and that is to give a chance for students who would not get into US MD OR Do. It is possible to succeed at a carrib, but much, much more painful.

Just do yourself a favor and shoot for DO. I love it.

 

[Algophiliac]

How can anyone be asking this question seriously, after spending ANY amount of time here on studentdoc or valuemd.

There is no question, I am wondering if you are trying to start a flame war.

Life will be INFINITELY easier for you to go US DO instead of Carib.

Carib has it's purpose, and that is to give a chance for students who would not get into US MD OR Do. It is possible to succeed at a carrib, but much, much more painful.

Just do yourself a favor and shoot for DO. I love it.

Really? Actually, I think SDN is one of the most intense in terms of DO vs. MD and prestige and etc. arguments. I am not trying to start a flame war, just getting opinions.

Thanks, seems like I can safely apply to both schools, then.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

if you have trouble finding an MDvsDO thread on SDN you shouldnt be allowed to practice medicine.

👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, there are a lot of arguments on SDN.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

why not just eliminate the pre-allo and pre-osteo boards and just make it a pre-med board? that might help limit the stupidity that runs rampant on the "debate".

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

why not just eliminate the pre-allo and pre-osteo boards and just make it a pre-med board? that might help limit the stupidity that runs rampant on the "debate".

The AOA would sue.

 

[jvesco22]

why not just eliminate the pre-allo and pre-osteo boards and just make it a pre-med board? that might help limit the stupidity that runs rampant on the "debate".

since there is a pre-osteo, how bout you stay with your own kind? (no racist)

(not srs)

 

[JaggerPlate]

why not just eliminate the pre-allo and pre-osteo boards and just make it a pre-med board? that might help limit the stupidity that runs rampant on the "debate".

They considered it at one point I think ... but it was shot down.

 

[Trolking]

I'd agree about the last statement because a lot of programs won't even look at your app because you're IMG. Some programs might listen a bit more to Caribb apps because they know the schools a lot better, cut you could go to a top notch university in Ireland, Latin American or wherever and most programs will still think you graduated from ho-bum school because they aren't familiar with foreign med schools at all.

If you go international like I did (I did because I've lived in Mexico most of my life), prepare yourself for the possibility of having to practice medicine in a country that isn't the US. I don't know how easy it is for a DO to get jobs outside of the US. There is 1 school in Mexico that grants something like a DO degree so at least in Mexico it might be possible but an MD is good everywhere especially if you have a residency under the belt in certain countries. I could equally go to Argentina, Spain or France with my MD degree.

DOs are currently able to practice in 45 countries with full medical rights and in several others with restricted rights. heres a list of some of the countries that grant a full license to DOs:
Argentina
Australia (varies by state)
Austria
Bahamas
Brazil
Canada (restricted in one provence)
Cayman Islands (UK)
Chile
China
Costa Rica
Denmark
Ecuador
Finland
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
New Zealand
Lebanon
Nigeria
Sweden
Taiwan
United Kingdom

 

[TarHeelEMT]

DO >> Caribbean MD in the eyes of most residency programs.

 

[ZzzZzzZzzZzzZzz]

carribean is easier to get in than DO

carribean is more of a gamble, lots of people drop out and don't match.

20 years from now, carrbean graduate will walk around with MD after their name and DO graduates, still a DO, if that's something that you care about.

some programs don't consider DO's at all for residency. But i think all programs will at least take a look at carrib App's, doesn't mean you have a good chance of course.

+1million. It doesn't matter how people try to defend DOs, there will always be a stigma associated with DOs. Patients you care for might never know the difference, however those you work with will see the title and make a quick judgment. This is more common with the older generations.

That being said there are some crappy MDs and DOs out there. In the end, it just matters how well you can play doctor.

 

[Longshanks]

+1million. It doesn't matter how people try to defend DOs, there will always be a stigma associated with DOs. Patients you care for might never know the difference, however those you work with will see the title and make a quick judgment. This is more common with the older generations.

That being said there are some crappy MDs and DOs out there. In the end, it just matters how well you can play doctor.

That stigma is mainly left in the minds of pre-meds, those who will soon be out of the profession, or those who made the decision to remain ignorant and close-minded. There are plenty of successful DOs working alongside MDs in the traditional ACGME accredited world. If discrimination was still as prevalent as made out to be on the pre-allo forum then a DO wouldn't be the president & CEO of the FSMB (one of the organizations that administer the USMLE). Of course, its only an example, but there are plenty others.

 

[ZzzZzzZzzZzzZzz]

That stigma is mainly left in the minds of pre-meds, those who will soon be out of the profession, or those who made the decision to remain ignorant and close-minded. There are plenty of successful DOs working alongside MDs in the traditional ACGME accredited world. If discrimination was still as prevalent as made out to be on the pre-allo forum then a DO wouldn't be the president & CEO of the FSMB (one of the organizations that administer the USMLE). Of course, its only an example, but there are plenty others.

Of course, anecdotal evidence that are outliers. 👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

+1million. It doesn't matter how people try to defend DOs, there will always be a stigma associated with DOs. Patients you care for might never know the difference, however those you work with will see the title and make a quick judgment. This is more common with the older generations.

That being said there are some crappy MDs and DOs out there. In the end, it just matters how well you can play doctor.

No.
Not to mention plenty of those Carib "MD's" will be walking around without a job as they will fail to get into a residency. I mean get real, DO > Carib MD.

 

[transfec]

No.
Not to mention plenty of those Carib "MD's" will be walking around without a job as they will fail to get into a residency. I mean get real, DO > Carib MD.

Agreed.

Is this thread for real?

DO vs. Carib MD?

 

[gettheleadout]

Why did this get bumped? And Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz do what you want, but the rest of us would like to have adequate chances at matching

 

[ZzzZzzZzzZzzZzz]

Why did this get bumped? And Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz do what you want, but the rest of us would like to have adequate chances at matching

I wouldn't do either DO or Caribbean MD.

 

[osteohopeful09]

this thread sucks, I love how everyone replying is a PREmed (who knows nothing but anecdotal stories spread on these forums), telling people what they can/can't do. I believe DO is better than carib for intense residencies, but there still is a spot for carib-trained US IMGs.
Go where you want and work your ass off.

 

[transfec]

this thread sucks, I love how everyone replying is a PREmed (who knows nothing but anecdotal stories spread on these forums), telling people what they can/can't do. I believe DO is better than carib for intense residencies, but there still is a spot for carib-trained US IMGs.
Go where you want and work your ass off.

You're obviously fooling yourself. Those with carib education have a much harder time than DO's.

 

[osteohopeful09]

You're obviously fooling yourself. Those with carib education have a much harder time than DO's.

Did I say they didn't?

 

[transfec]

Did I say they didn't?

You said there was a spot for caribs. While that's true, the spot is tiny.

 

[Longshanks]

Of course, anecdotal evidence that are outliers. 👍

So, mentioning people whom can be referenced and actually researched is anecdotal? This isn't from personal account or experience. You can do the research for yourself looking up various programs, and you would find that for the most part, you will find DOs in ACGME residencies in the prevalence or proportion you would expect for having more MD graduates than DO graduates, and also accounting for those who match into ACGME rather than AOA. Of course there are still some enclaves where there may be bias or discrimination, but that has become the exception and not necessarily the rule. You will find DOs in leadership positions and faculty positions across the country. It ceases to be anecdotal when it is a researchable trend.

Though, if you would like to speak anecdotally, then if you ever worked a full-time job at an academic medical center you would know that for the most part professionals do not care and it is not an issue that is brought up, other than by pre-meds whining on internet forums. Naturally there are exceptions, but whether working in a research environment or a clinical setting, I have yet to see any actual bias or professional interaction impaired because of individuals having differing degrees. Those who are so quick to judgment as you claim, are individuals who sadly need to seek validation of their ego or to build their own fragile self-esteem.

 

[iqe2010]

What's the pont of having different medical degrees anyway? I think all DO schools should be changed to MD. I see no point in DO AT ALL. You can be a doctor with either degree...

 

[cbrons]

DO: Get Money, Get Paid, Get Laid.
Carrib: M&Ms - Metformin and Midwest for you Johnson.

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 

[eugenierose]

DO: Get Money, Get Paid, Get Laid.
Carrib: M&Ms - Metformin and Midwest for you Johnson.

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

Love it.

Unless you're looking at a semi-competitive allo program at a Big Name that's so malignant that US kids (DO or MD) won't touch it, you ain't gonna get much as an IMG anymore unless you cured cancer or some ****.

ANY IMG is in for a ****ty ride if they come over trying to play badazz. Especially with the increase in med school spots-- the residency numbers aren't climbing.

And as far as residencies go, osteo gets to double dip their chips, the bastards.

The long and short of it is, DO=MD, except for some idiots who can't get over the chip on their shoulder.

if you have trouble finding an MDvsDO thread on SDN you shouldnt be allowed to practice medicine.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH. Seriously. Second most popular topic after bitching about an A- in underwater basket weaving.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What's the pont of having different medical degrees anyway? I think all DO schools should be changed to MD. I see no point in DO AT ALL. You can be a doctor with either degree...

History.

 

[Longshanks]

What's the pont of having different medical degrees anyway? I think all DO schools should be changed to MD. I see no point in DO AT ALL. You can be a doctor with either degree...

Historical reasons and since DO was addressing American health care needs, as at the time in the 1800s most MDs in America either had no training other than an "apprenticeship" with someone in their town or had to go to a European university to be trained. There were of course exceptions, with some of the older universities in our country and medical colleges in Northeastern cities, but this was mainly a route for the economically elite and did not address the health care needs of the majority of the American population which was rural. Naturally, MD granting institutions have vastly expanded and training has been regulated and codified, and those with both degrees can be found serving any population in America you can imagine. But at the time it was an alternative philosophy to the contemporary medical beliefs and practices at the time, and one that sought to address a population's needs that weren't being met.

Of course things have greatly changed for both degree granting bodies, and medical professionals, over the last 100 years, including the incorporation of evidence based medicine by both. You have to keep in mind though that AMA and AOA, and their respective state associations, had an antagonistic and hostile relationships generally until the late-1970s and didn't really reconcile until the 90s. So today, while it is tough to argue DO "distinctiveness", the AOA has fought for a long time to keep the profession alive and distinct that it would make amalgamation very difficult.