DO vs. Caribbean?

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racinemitch

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Hey everyone,

I hope this hasn't already been discussed, if so, my bad for the lack of research. I'm wondering, if two students want to go into a general surgery residency, one is from a DO school and took the USMLEs, and the other is from one of the top four or so Caribbean schools and scored the exact same on the USMLEs, with identical extra curricular things and grades, who gets the spot more often? Assuming interview skills were even as well.
 
I'm not going to go to the effort to find all of the research to back this up because this has been discussed AT LENGTH on this forum, but the DO student will have a measurable advantage in obtaining any residency (general surgery included), especially now that DO/MD residencies have merged into a single residency accreditation system. With the increasing number of medical students and stagnant number of residency slots, foreign medical grads are going to have an even tougher time matching in the next 5 years. The end.
 
racinemitch said:
Hey everyone,

I hope this hasn't already been discussed, if so, my bad for the lack of research. I'm wondering, if two students want to go into a general surgery residency, one is from a DO school and took the USMLEs, and the other is from one of the top four or so Caribbean schools and scored the exact same on the USMLEs, with identical extra curricular things and grades, who gets the spot more often? Assuming interview skills were even as well.
Click to expand...

I'm a DO student but this isn't even a discussion. DO all the way, especially now that the merger has gone through.

If your looking for data, someone made an awesome spreadsheet. I don't remember who did it though.
 
touchpause13 said:
:beat:
Click to expand...
dead-horse.gif
Same thing in HD.

OP, any US school is >>>> Caribbean.
 
In terms of USMLE performance it goes US MD > US DO > FMG. FMGs have a harder time landing residencies, and I would assume even harder now that the AOA/ACGME merger has gone through. You'd have to work your @$$ off in Carib school to land a decent residency.
 
FMG is the first group residency directors eliminate when they have plenty of good candidates. DO is considered a good candidate, so DO >>>>>> FMG any day.
 
MDOnlyWillDo said:
FMG is the first group residency directors eliminate when they have plenty of good candidates. DO is considered a good candidate, so DO >>>>>> FMG any day.
Click to expand...

inb4 IMG applicants with 270 Step1 score.
 
Arcumis said:
US DO >>>>No Job>>>>Caribbean
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lulz, given how it's not an uncommon scenario to see Carib grads without jobs after finishing their MD's, having no job without the Caribbean debt makes this an actually valid statement.
 
DO, but try for a real US MD med school. DOs have snags with residencies in certain specialities and if you're interested in those certain specialities that won't help.
 
mrh125 said:
DO, but try for a real US MD med school. DOs have snags with residencies in certain specialities and if you're interested in those certain specialities that won't help.
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Exactly. It's not so much that getting a DO will close doors so much as an MD really keeps all doors open. You have to kick down a lot more doors as a DO. Two sets of accreditation exams, applying to two sets of residencies, etc.
 
There is absolutely no contest here. Remain stateside and earn your medical degree on U.S. Soil.
US MD > US DO > Carribean. There will be foreign schools that supercede even some US MD schools or some US DO schools, but I imagine if one is contemplating DO or Carribean then these types of programs (UTokyo, McGill, KCL, Oxford, for example) are not attainable options.
 
My vote (re: question in title): DO.

Why: My understanding or misunderstanding is that most Caribbean schools are like money-hungry monsters. They seem to feed off of desperate students who want an MD and who believe that they can out compete the rest of the class to land a residency.

The Problem: Apparently many (if not most) Caribbean MD students eventually get stuck with $250k+ debt and no residency. This, I believe, is unique to Caribbean schools.

An aside: It surprises me that these Caribbean schools have yet to unleash a PR campaign or reputation management. For a few dollars, they can hire people to come on here and argue that they are terrific.
 
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d"Gauss44 said:
My vote (re: question in title):An aside: It surprises me that these Caribbean schools have yet to unleash a PR campaign or reputation management. For a few dollars, they can hire people to come on here and argue that they are terrific.
Click to expand...

Not sure if serious...but they already do this ontop of sending reps to damn near every US college. Don't buy Ross' pizza!!!
 
touchpause13 said:
I saw quite a few posters for them at UND.
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Haha! Yeah, my one year as an officer for the pre-med org at NDSU a rep from Ross came with their pizza and spoke about how amazing of an opportunity they offer. Our pre-med advisor (same person who said I'd be lucky to even get an interview at a DO school 🙄) arranged the whole thing and we tried to cancel it to no avail. A whole 3 people showed up - 2 freshman and our advisor, who just took pizza and left.
 
WillburCobb said:
Haha! Yeah, my one year as an officer for the pre-med org at NDSU a rep from Ross came with their pizza and spoke about how amazing of an opportunity they offer. Our pre-med advisor (same person who said I'd be lucky to even get an interview at a DO school 🙄) arranged the whole thing and we tried to cancel it to no avail. A whole 3 people showed up - 2 freshman and our advisor, who just took pizza and left.
Click to expand...
My premed advisor was criminal. Said that you couldn't get into med school with a BA. And that taking Physio and anatomy was a requirement. I ended up murdering my gpa with Physio 🙁
 
touchpause13 said:
My premed advisor was criminal. Said that you couldn't get into med school with a BA. And that taking Physio and anatomy was a requirement. I ended up murdering my gpa with Physio 🙁
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha! I wonder if I meet with your advisor (I was I I this close to going to UND and only ended up at NDSU on a whim). I don't even know where to begin with my pre-med advisor. I have a laundry list of ****ty advice, misinformation, and just generally ridiculous stories about her. My favorite is that she had her lecturing duties revoked for arguing with tenured faculty in more than one intro to bio class, but the school still kept her as an advisor. Or when I told one of my LOR writers I had been accepted his response was, "glad to see you made the gauntlet of xxxxxx's ****ty advice."
 
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DopaDO said:
I'm a DO student but this isn't even a discussion. DO all the way, especially now that the merger has gone through.

If your looking for data, someone made an awesome spreadsheet. I don't remember who did it though.
Click to expand...
@HockeyDr09
 
WillburCobb said:
Haha! Yeah, my one year as an officer for the pre-med org at NDSU a rep from Ross came with their pizza and spoke about how amazing of an opportunity they offer. Our pre-med advisor (same person who said I'd be lucky to even get an interview at a DO school 🙄) arranged the whole thing and we tried to cancel it to no avail. A whole 3 people showed up - 2 freshman and our advisor, who just took pizza and left.
Click to expand...
No offense but that's kind of rude. I don't agree with the SDN sentiment of vilifying IMGs. Whether you like it or not you'll be practicing with you (most of the time) and you'll find out they're people who want to be good physicians all the same. It's a shame they go to IMGs, yes, but I'd wager to say most of them are ignorant of DO grade replacement and may not feel any other opportunity. I'm not an advocate of failure, and sincerely feel bad for students who go there and face such difficulties.
 
NontradCA said:
No offense but that's kind of rude. I don't agree with the SDN sentiment of vilifying IMGs. Whether you like it or not you'll be practicing with you (most of the time) and you'll find out they're people who want to be good physicians all the same. It's a shame they go to IMGs, yes, but I'd wager to say most of them are ignorant of DO grade replacement and may not feel any other opportunity. I'm not an advocate of failure, and sincerely feel bad for students who go there and face such difficulties.
Click to expand...

I understand your point and it's true to some degree. My issue is more with the schools cherry picking their stats and then raping people with their ridiculous attrition and high tuition, not IMGs in general. I know two people who ended up being thrown out of Caribbean schools within the first semester for very arbitrary reasons. Both knew about, and had competitive stats for DO schools (one even had a LOR from a DO) but were much more concerned about the two letters after their name.
 
WillburCobb said:
I understand your point and it's true to some degree. My issue is more with the schools cherry picking their stats and then raping people with their ridiculous attrition and high tuition, not IMGs in general. I know two people who ended up being thrown out of Caribbean schools within the first semester for very arbitrary reasons. Both knew about, and had competitive stats for DO schools (one even had a LOR from a DO) but were much more concerned about the two letters after their name.
Click to expand...

I agree. The problem I have with foreign schools promising to grant "US" MDs is that they are mostly charlattans. A good friend of mine went to UNIBE in Costa Rica straight out of high school in spite of his good gpa and top sat score because he and his family thought it would save him time and money. I wish I was knowledgeable about the medical school process back then (three years ago) to tell him to run away and never look back. They are expensive failure mills where students go to be robbed of their money and dreams. There is nothing wrong with going to another country for your medical education if you wish to serve that country's population but the business model behind most of the Caribbean schools and a lot of other schools like UNIBE is a disgrace to the medical profession.


Also, we should all get together and do everything we can to shut down valueMD for purposely misinforming the public about their options in medical education.
 
WillburCobb said:
I understand your point and it's true to some degree. My issue is more with the schools cherry picking their stats and then raping people with their ridiculous attrition and high tuition, not IMGs in general. I know two people who ended up being thrown out of Caribbean schools within the first semester for very arbitrary reasons. Both knew about, and had competitive stats for DO schools (one even had a LOR from a DO) but were much more concerned about the two letters after their name.
Click to expand...

My issue is that pre-med committees keep doing this at schools, knowing that it's not a great option.. or at least they should know.
 
gumdrops said:
lulz, given how it's not an uncommon scenario to see Carib grads without jobs after finishing their MD's, having no job without the Caribbean debt makes this an actually valid statement.
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Have you met anyone in this scenario? I knew a guy who was jobless from Caribbean for 4 years until he matched pediatrics. I never had the heart to inquire about how they deal with the debt.
 
Arcumis said:
I agree. The problem I have with foreign schools promising to grant "US" MDs is that they are mostly charlattans. A good friend of mine went to UNIBE in Costa Rica straight out of high school in spite of his good gpa and top sat score because he and his family thought it would save him time and money. I wish I was knowledgeable about the medical school process back then (three years ago) to tell him to run away and never look back. They are expensive failure mills where students go to be robbed of their money and dreams. There is nothing wrong with going to another country for your medical education if you wish to serve that country's population but the business model behind most of the Caribbean schools and a lot of other schools like UNIBE is a disgrace to the medical profession.


Also, we should all get together and do everything we can to shut down valueMD for purposely misinforming the public about their options in medical education.
Click to expand...

What happened to your friend?
 
Are people that go to Caribbean schools just overlooking DO schools or plainly cannot get into DO schools?
 
orangeman25 said:
Are people that go to Caribbean schools just overlooking DO schools or plainly cannot get into DO schools?
Click to expand...

Both. A guy with a 2.8 and a 22 MCAT isn't getting into any American school. Also, some people don't want DO after their name. They would rather spend years on an island getting their MD. I think it's a combination of misinformation and weird sense of pride. Like, they'll do anything to have MD after their name (and take a chance on their future) instead of having a stable life as a DO.
To each his own, I guess.
 
Member10billion said:
Both. A guy with a 2.8 and a 22 MCAT isn't getting into any American school. Also, some people don't want DO after their name. They would rather spend years on an island getting their MD. I think it's a combination of misinformation and weird sense of pride. Like, they'll do anything to have MD after their name (and take a chance on their future) instead of having a stable life as a DO.
To each his own, I guess.
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I don't know about your experience, but every Caribbean student I have met pretends they got into osteopathic school and they chose Caribbean. I don't buy it. They are just trying to salvage ego.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
I don't know about your experience, but every Caribbean student I have met pretends they got into osteopathic school and they chose Caribbean. I don't buy it. They are just trying to salvage ego.
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That's sad. No, I have not met one of those people. My friend did pretend she got a 30+ on her MCAT and chose Caribbean. Now THAT I don't buy.
 
touchpause13 said:
My premed advisor was criminal. Said that you couldn't get into med school with a BA. And that taking Physio and anatomy was a requirement. I ended up murdering my gpa with Physio 🙁
Click to expand...
How does this person have a job as the pre-med advisor?........ Shouldn't the school do something about it? Isn't it in the school's best interest for their students to succeed?
 
Member10billion said:
How does this person have a job as the pre-med advisor?........ Shouldn't the school do something about it? Isn't it in the school's best interest for their students to succeed?
Click to expand...
Sad thing is, said school has a very good med school 😉
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Have you met anyone in this scenario? I knew a guy who was jobless from Caribbean for 4 years until he matched pediatrics. I never had the heart to inquire about how they deal with the debt.
Click to expand...

Yeah, so aside from the Caribbean, there are these degree-mill type medical schools in Poland and India that are similar in that they're for profit, have some US rotations set up at various community programs and dangle the possibility of matching into US allopathic residencies.

I had a couple of friends who didn't match when they graduated from these medical schools and have met a couple of people who didn't match from Ross and St. George's. To be fair, their Step 1 scores were below 200 and they reapplied to less competitive specialties like family medicine and psych and matched. Still, they went through the excruciating process of wondering whether they'd left with $300,000 of debt and no prospects of practicing medicine in the US. They did categorical surg programs and the like or worked in labs and reapplied. One is now a writer and didn't practice medicine at all. She was alright because her parents footed the bill for medical school entirely. Another has failed Step 1 twice now (from AUG) and is figuring out the next step. I sense that she's beginning to close the door on practicing. 🙁

You were right to be so gentle as to not ask about how they deal with debt. From having listened to friends' agonizing late-night phone calls over the curriculum with no relevance to Step 1, the low pass rate, the lack of clinical rotations and finally, e-mails that contained the dreaded news that they did not match, I can tell you right now that to even compare DO programs to the Caribbean is trollish and ridiculous ****e pulled by MD students with an unfounded superiority complex. They're going through their own personal hell so you were a good friend to just be caring and gentle without rubbing in their faces that things are very, very uncertain for them unlike the rest of us graduating from US programs.
 
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Member10billion said:
That's sad. No, I have not met one of those people. My friend did pretend she got a 30+ on her MCAT and chose Caribbean. Now THAT I don't buy.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised at just how misinformed people are and just how poor many 21-22 year olds' decision making processes are. Just sayin'.
 
racinemitch said:
Hey everyone,

I hope this hasn't already been discussed, if so, my bad for the lack of research. I'm wondering, if two students want to go into a general surgery residency, one is from a DO school and took the USMLEs, and the other is from one of the top four or so Caribbean schools and scored the exact same on the USMLEs, with identical extra curricular things and grades, who gets the spot more often? Assuming interview skills were even as well.
Click to expand...

US graduate every time.
 
Member10billion said:
That's sad. No, I have not met one of those people. My friend did pretend she got a 30+ on her MCAT and chose Caribbean. Now THAT I don't buy.
Click to expand...

I remember a Caribbean med student who said that they had a 30+ MCAT score and that some doctors he worked with said he was "shoo-in". Then he blamed race/gender for not getting in. Because clearly it couldn't have been his clearly superior application that he refuses to go into detail with, or his winning personality, or his complete and utter lack of any sense of entitlement.
 
MedWonk said:
I remember a Caribbean med student who said that they had a 30+ MCAT score and that some doctors he worked with said he was "shoo-in". Then he blamed race/gender for not getting in. Because clearly it couldn't have been his clearly superior application that he refuses to go into detail with, or his winning personality, or his complete and utter lack of any sense of entitlement.
Click to expand...

:clap:

P.S. - MedWonk congrats on your acceptances to UMass and UVM.
Really like it when I see non-trads getting the acceptances.
 
I have a friend who is a former classmate of mine that before he came to the post bac program we were both in he was a student at Ross.

He said that they accept somewhere around 500 students knowing that most of them will fail out. He said that there are no safety nets and the work to begin the weeding out begins immediately. He became really sick and wasn't given a break so he dropped out. He was saying he had to do a year of what he described as post bac work before he started MS1. He spoke like this was the norm. He's now even more in debt and he wishes that he just studied more and retook his mcat than wasting both his time and money going to Ross. He was studying to re-take the MCAT when we last caught up and is applying this year.

I hope going to Ross won't shoot his application down.
 
Gauss44 said:
My vote (re: question in title): DO.

An aside: It surprises me that these Caribbean schools have yet to unleash a PR campaign or reputation management. For a few dollars, they can hire people to come on here and argue that they are terrific.
Click to expand...
It seems like they do spend a lot of money for PR. I saw a few posters of them at school. Sending a tons of emails (I receive quite a lot from a few different schools). Even some webinar. And they are smart enough to understand that no SDNers would buy their so-called reputation.
 
I just wanted to revive this thread because I recently had a discussion about MD Caribbean vs DO with my family/relatives, and wanted to get some opinions from the SDN community.

My family knows two MDs who got their degrees from Caribbean schools and they seem to be doing phenomenal in life (lifestyle, job wise). Now when I tell my family how this is only n=2, they tell me that "if we know of 2 people like this, there has to be many out there!"

I am going to be an applicant who will be borderline for MD schools in the US(3.5/31). Though I'm also applying to DO schools, if a DO school doesn't work out also, I'm now considering the Caribbean (I really hoped I didn't have to).

So I guess my question is, on SDN do we patronize the Caribbean MD degree too much? Are they more successful than we think?
 
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