DO vs. MD Match

[wilner2]

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I am sure that this has been posted somewhere else before, but does anyone know if you match for the DO match, are you still allowed to try and match at an allopathic residency program after you already have your DO spot. Is it possible to maybe defer your DO spot and see if you can get an allopathic spot? Just checking.Thanks.

 

[Idiopathic]

I am sure that this has been posted somewhere else before, but does anyone know if you match for the DO match, are you still allowed to try and match at an allopathic residency program after you already have your DO spot. Is it possible to maybe defer your DO spot and see if you can get an allopathic spot? Just checking.Thanks.

Absolutely not. If you match osteopathic, you are automatically withdrawn from the allopathic match. On some occasions (programs that start PGY-2) you can match as an intern in the osteopathic match and match PGY-2 in the allopathic match.

Such is the risk associated with being a DO in the MD match. If you shoot for an allo program and dont get it, you have to scramble for a spot, no matter how competitive you are.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I am sure that this has been posted somewhere else before, but does anyone know if you match for the DO match, are you still allowed to try and match at an allopathic residency program after you already have your DO spot. Is it possible to maybe defer your DO spot and see if you can get an allopathic spot? Just checking.Thanks.

No. Once you match DO, you are pulled from the MD match. There are lots of different threads discussing how to finesse the system to get the program you want, according to different residencies. Do a search.

jhug also reported that there is some conversation about combining DO and MD matches, with an exclusion of FMG's from the match (they may scramble afterwards). It sounds like this idea is in it's infancy, and who knows whether it will ever see the light of day.

 

[Idiopathic]

jhug also reported that there is some conversation about combining DO and MD matches, with an exclusion of FMG's from the match (they may scramble afterwards). It sounds like this idea is in it's infancy, and who knows whether it will ever see the light of day.

The AOA would never allow this, because it would destroy the quality of their match.

 

[jhug]

the AMA-MSS is in the process of studying the pros/cons of restructuring the match process. A major suggestion that was brought up is combining the MD/DO match (so we don't have to decide on a DO residency months in advance thus eliminating ourselves from the MD match)
(Also, they are contemplating eliminating FMG's from the initial stage of the match simply because this is the AMERICAN match (not international) Once sites are filled (scramble time) the sites would then be open for FMG's to fill any unfilled spots.)
from what i've heard on the AMA side, the aoa was at first very short and not interested...but since (somehow) have realized that qualified DO's are deciding to put all their eggs in the ACGME basket totally eliminating the DO option...with this new restructuring, a DO could put jh or mayo first, and a great osteo program second...if you don't match at jh or mayo you go to the DO program...as it is right now, that applicant probably wouldn't risk missing out on the option of jh/mayo and just skip the DO match all together. This won't "destroy the quality of the DO match", more, it would allow qualified DO's to try and shoot for the top programs while not sacrificing the option of an osteopathic residency...plus, it may encourage our beloved aoa into improving the quality and number of osteopathic residencies available (ex: i want to do peds and there are more allo peds residencies in the state of california than osteo in the nation)
who knows if/when this will happen...but it is nice to see some in the AMA recognize our contribution to medicine

 

[Idiopathic]

This won't "destroy the quality of the DO match", more, it would allow qualified DO's to try and shoot for the top programs while not sacrificing the option of an osteopathic residency...plus, it may encourage our beloved aoa into improving the quality and number of osteopathic residencies available (ex: i want to do peds and there are more allo peds residencies in the state of california than osteo in the nation)
who knows if/when this will happen...but it is nice to see some in the AMA recognize our contribution to medicine

Please...I know plenty of people that would list 100 allo programs before any osteo ones, but would never risk not matching, so they would ordinarily partake in the osteo match. So, the AOA is saying they would be willing to lose all the students who actually could get into JH or Mayo? No way. If I was shooting for Hopkins and my second choice was an osteo residency, you better believe I would take the second choice in the osteo match and forgo the chance to match Hopkins (unless I was sure I could get the spot) for fear of not matching.

 

[EvoDevo]

The AOA would never allow this, because it would destroy the quality of their match.

Is this true?

I dunno, Idio....the impression that I get from SDN (admittedly my only source ATT) is that the quality of Osteopathic residency programs is in decline.....am I wrong?

What I would like to see is the osteo community try and be more robust....

 

[jhug]

If I was shooting for Hopkins and my second choice was an osteo residency, you better believe I would take the second choice in the osteo match and forgo the chance to match Hopkins

this may be where you differ from someone else...if i had the chance to match at the best residency available (not that jh is, just using it as an example) i would do all i could to land it...even if that meant passing on the DO option...that way i'm not settling for anything less than the best.
true, there are some that would list hundreds of allo programs before an osteo...but don't you think they do that by skipping the osteo match process completely? as it is, the aoa is already losing too many very qualified residents.

 

[Idiopathic]

this may be where you differ from someone else...if i had the chance to match at the best residency available (not that jh is, just using it as an example) i would do all i could to land it...even if that meant passing on the DO option...that way i'm not settling for anything less than the best.
true, there are some that would list hundreds of allo programs before an osteo...but don't you think they do that by skipping the osteo match process completely? as it is, the aoa is already losing too many very qualified residents.

How could you risk not matching? Lets say I want to do neuro or ortho. I cant take a chance on scrambling into general surgery and 'working my way up', I have to have the match. I admit that makes up a fraction of the applicants, but why would the AOA want to let anyone who is capable of matching at Mayo, etc. have an easier time of it.

 

[Idiopathic]

there are some that would list hundreds of allo programs before an osteo...but don't you think they do that by skipping the osteo match process completely? as it is, the aoa is already losing too many very qualified residents.

So you think the AOA wants to make it easier for people to not go AOA?

 

[Idiopathic]

Is this true?

I dunno, Idio....the impression that I get from SDN (admittedly my only source ATT) is that the quality of Osteopathic residency programs is in decline.....am I wrong?

What I would like to see is the osteo community try and be more robust....

I agree, I am not arguing that there is some great 'quality' to most osteo residencies, but what quality they do have would be seriously undermined. There were 700 unmatched allo FP spots last year. Is the AOA ready to lose 700 osteopaths? Because that is what would happen. I havent decided myself, and I would appreciate the consolidation, because there are so few spots in what I want to do, and I would rather rank Harvard ahead of Grandview (just because its Harvard...) and I would probably not match there, but my assertion is why would the AOA take the chance?

My theory is they know that they will not have any way to account for the number of graduates. They already only have about 1400 funded internships (about half the number of graduates) and it will only get worse. They may have no choice but to combine. Just as they are now saying that they will accept all allo PGY-1 years if you finish at an osteo (sort of an allopathic internship year, if you will).

 

[EvoDevo]

I agree, I am not arguing that there is some great 'quality' to most osteo residencies, but what quality they do have would be seriously undermined. There were 700 unmatched allo FP spots last year. Is the AOA ready to lose 700 osteopaths? Because that is what would happen. I havent decided myself, and I would appreciate the consolidation, because there are so few spots in what I want to do, and I would rather rank Harvard ahead of Grandview (just because its Harvard...) and I would probably not match there, but my assertion is why would the AOA take the chance?

My theory is they know that they will not have any way to account for the number of graduates. They already only have about 1400 funded internships (about half the number of graduates) and it will only get worse. They may have no choice but to combine. Just as they are now saying that they will accept all allo PGY-1 years if you finish at an osteo (sort of an allopathic internship year, if you will).

Naw, I didn't think you were making a "quality" argument at all.....

So I take that you ARE considering/going to do Neurosurgery? Good on ya. 👍

My take is that residents need to go to the absolute best residency program that you can. It's all about playing to the level of the program you're in. I know that I push myself harder/learn more when the bar is raised than not.

And as far as AOA accepting allo PGY-1 years, that handwriting' on the wall. I mean, ~90% states in the country have no such "Osteo-PGY-1" requirement for licensure..

Ack, I'm tired and not being coherent. I'll just end by saying this: I wanna be kick ass at whatever I decide to do, and I'm going to try to get the best possible residency that I can. Now, if that happens to be an Osteo residency progam, so be it. But if it's an allo program, you can bet your ass that I'm gonna try for it. "Cause my patients down the road are ultimately best served by my receiving the best possible training.

BTW, congrats again on your board scores, man. You've given me quite the goal to work for when I start next year. 👍





Even if you ARE an Okie.

 

[Idiopathic]

So I take that you ARE considering/going to do Neurosurgery? Good on ya. 👍

Since day one...

 

[Idiopathic]

Even if you ARE an Okie.

You, of course, know that I graduated from a little school of 50K students down in Texas, just north of San Marcos...right?

 

[EvoDevo]

You, of course, know that I graduated from a little school of 50K students down in Texas, just north of San Marcos...right?

No!! I didn't! When didja graduate?

Oh Lord, how have you dealt with living in Hell????????????


Apparently there are a LOT of things I didn't know. esp. the Neuro thingy. Way to go, man.

 

[Idiopathic]

Grad of 2002








Oklahoma is interesting, to say the least...

 

[EvoDevo]

Grad of 2002

Oklahoma is interesting, to say the least...

2K grad here.

Here's my Okie story: in 2000 I moved to Bakersfield, CA to work for a year. I was driving down the street in my truck (festooned with UT stickers, of course) minding my own business (or JDA - "just driving along").

All of a sudden, I hear the car horn from Hell. It sounded like Gabriel's horn was blowing. I look out the driver's window into a tire. A BIG tire. Tall as my truck. Raising my gaze ABOVE the tire, I saw this.....fellow leaning out the passenger window of a truck, holding onto his OU hat and screaming obscenities at my L0ngh0rn ass. I yelled back. It was fun.


The cop thought so too. He was from OU. 🙄

 

[DrMom]

The AOA would never allow this, because it would destroy the quality of their match.

Actually, the AOA is currently in discussion with the NRMP. The absolute earliest class that could benefit from this is 2007...and that's if things move along smoothly.

 

[jhug]

drmom...where did you get your info? i didn't know type of time-line had been set up.

 

[DrMom]

I'm the student member on an AOA committee that is dealing with this issue.

There's no time line, though. I was just stating what the earliest possible time would be based on when info would have to be exchanged between the DO and MD match systems. Do know, however, that this is definitely being examined and seriously considered.

BTW: I'm strongly campaigning for the 2 matches to be completely integrated so that we could rank MD and DO programs together.

 

[Docgeorge]

Tell them to hurry up. I'm in the class of 2007 and that would help me out a lot. I really dont want to get screwed like we did for the boards. New computerized boards will be available in Aug of 2005, that means we can only take them if we fail in June. That really sucks.

 

[DrMom]

I'm working on it, but no guarantees. I just hope that the powers that be keep an open mind.

As to computerized boards, I hate doing stuff like that on the computer...but at least the exam will be shorter. You'll get the computerized Step 2, though.

 

[Idiopathic]

BTW: I'm strongly campaigning for the 2 matches to be completely integrated so that we could rank MD and DO programs together.

Let me say that I am strongly for this. However, I am not holding my breath.

There must be serious pressure on the AOA to do this, because they have the most to lose, in my opinion.

 

[DrMom]

That is an issue with them...they don't really want to give up control. At the same time, they are starting to realize that they may very well be able to fill more osteopathic slots in a combined match since so many don't even participate in the DO match the way things are now.

 

[DireWolf]

I'm working on it, but no guarantees. I just hope that the powers that be keep an open mind.

As to computerized boards, I hate doing stuff like that on the computer...but at least the exam will be shorter. You'll get the computerized Step 2, though.

Are we the first class to get the computerized Step 2? And how many questions are they going to use?

 

[jhug]

That is an issue with them...they don't really want to give up control. At the same time, they are starting to realize that they may very well be able to fill more osteopathic slots in a combined match since so many don't even participate in the DO match the way things are now.

this is exactly how i feel...drmom, you never cease to amaze me!!!

 

[Su4n2]

computrized in aug? are they ******ed? why would they do that when we take it in june?! honestly, they never cease to a amaze me....

 

[DrMom]

Are we the first class to get the computerized Step 2? And how many questions are they going to use?

I've been told that we are. Can't remember how many questions, but it's definitely fewer than 750. Supposed to be close to the # on the USMLE.




Jhug: That's part of the argument I presented at my meeting...and will be presenting in a report shortly. This will be a long process, but I hope to eventually see it accomplished.

 

[stoic]

It seems that the good DO programs have a lot to gain and the bad DO programs have a lot to lose if the matches combine. I think it is a step in the right direction. If some of the mediocore/sub-par DO programs lose all of their residents to ACGME programs, they're gonna have to either get themselves up to par or close their doors. Probably would cause some initial problems, but in the long run it would be a way of ensuring AOA GME was staying competative with ACGME standards.

 

[DrMom]

It seems that the good DO programs have a lot to gain and the bad DO programs have a lot to lose if the matches combine. I think it is a step in the right direction. If some of the mediocore/sub-par DO programs lose all of their residents to ACGME programs, they're gonna have to either get themselves up to par or close their doors. Probably would cause some initial problems, but in the long run it would be a way of ensuring AOA GME was staying competative with ACGME standards.

👍

 

[OnMyWayThere]

would this mean that allopaths would be able to match into osteopathic spots as well?

 

[stoic]

would this mean that allopaths would be able to match into osteopathic spots as well?

Though I'm not familiar with the details of the proposed plan, I would imagine MD's wouldn't be matching into DO spots. Why? Lack of OMT training. Many (if not most) DO residencies have OMT worked into their programs. MD's just don't have the training to do it. Perhaps Dr. Mom will chime in with some more specific info soon.

 

[DrMom]

would this mean that allopaths would be able to match into osteopathic spots as well?

It is being discussed, but separately from the issue of combining the matches. So basically, if the matches are combined the DO slots will still only be open to DOs. To open up the DO slots to MDs has a variety of problems involved including the lack of OMM training and the fact that the AOA's bylaws would have to be changed to allow for this (from what was said at my mtg). This will also be discussed further at my next cmte mtg, though, so it still is on the table.


If you guys want to give me your thoughts and opinions on these issues, feel free to PM or email me. I'm happy to see what you all think & that would give me some more "ammunition" to go back to Chicago with. 🙂

 

[Aaron Earles]

This is some good information. Great thread and posts. Good luck to you all. I do hate to hear that the board exams will be computerized. I always get headaches when I take tests on computers.

BTW: thank Dr. Mom for pushing the issue of combining the two matches. I think it will make it a lot less stressful on DOs if this comes about. Just my 0.02.

ACE

 

[Boomer]

:
Oh Lord, how have you dealt with living in Hell????????????

Hell you say?

If I owned Austin and Hell, I'd rent out Austin, and live in Hell....

Of course, Austin would still be a local call.....

 

[Robz]

I do hate to hear that the board exams will be computerized. I always get headaches when I take tests on computers.

Its how the USMLE is. If they end up doing it for step one it takes the test from two days to one day....any extra time for me is bonus. I get headaches too but I like computers cause everything is a few clicks away! 🙂

 

[OnMyWayThere]

As limited as the osteopathic spots are combined with new schools opening up (and not new residencies), I would be worried if allopathic physicians were also competing for these spots.

 

[DrMom]

As limited as the osteopathic spots are combined with new schools opening up (and not new residencies), I would be worried if allopathic physicians were also competing for these spots.

I pointed this out to the cmte as a significant issue. We're told that there aren't enough spots for all of us, they then complain when we apply to the MD spots, and then they're considering opening them up to MDs? I don't know how seriously this is being considered, but we are discussing it. I explained that it would be a hard sell to the osteopathic students.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

As limited as the osteopathic spots are combined with new schools opening up (and not new residencies), I would be worried if allopathic physicians were also competing for these spots.

Overall, there are more than enough residency positions available for every medical school graduate in the country every year. If the AOA/ACGME matches were to be combined, it would force the AOA programs to come up to the ACGME standard if they hope to compete with the ACGME programs for graduates each year.

Currently, the only way they compete is by scaring osteopathic students into doing an osteopathic internship, which is then linked to an osteopathic residency. Of course, there is the whole deal with different match dates and automatic removal from the ACGME match...

Pathetic, really. Maybe someday they'll compete on merit, rather than fear and manipulation. But then again, FUD has been the AOAs MO for years.

I think combining matches would be a step in the right direction. Go DrMOM!! Bring it home!

jd

 

[DeLaughterDO]

I pointed this out to the cmte as a significant issue. We're told that there aren't enough spots for all of us, they then complain when we apply to the MD spots, and then they're considering opening them up to MDs? I don't know how seriously this is being considered, but we are discussing it. I explained that it would be a hard sell to the osteopathic students.

DrMom,

Heck, if the AOA residencies think they can draw allopathic grads, let them go... Like I said in my reply above, maybe the competition would better the programs and bring them up to the standards to which the ACGME holds its programs.

I'm not worried about not enough spots.. there will always be spots open in allo programs. Besides, there are only 1 or 2 EM osteo programs I would ever consider applying to.

jd

 

[BayesianDoc]

I say open the AOA residencies up to Allo students. Its only fair. The programs or individual attendings can work around their lack of OMT knowledge. Really, how much is OMT is really integrated into some of these DO residencies. There are a few specialties I would be surprised that it was incorporated into. But hell what do I know. I do know of an AOA approved EM residency where the residents only exposure to OMT is when they either elect to do an omt rotation, travel to PCOM (recommended but not mandatory) or rotate with with an DO FP, but this FP probably also sees other residents on rotations that are MDs and he doesn't train them on OMT. Where am I leading with this? I don't know, other than I think if the match is combined it may lead to further dual accredidation of residencies that would help students, hurt bad programs or at least force them to some new standard, and help those AOA programs that are good get some well deserved recognition.
One of the problems I can see in all this is for DO's is that for some reason the well sought after residencies in like Derm, Ortho, Rads (Hi money specialties) will start matching a proportionate amount of MD students that in comparison is the same as their allo counterparts. This will either further alienate DO's in those profession like is already happening (not sure on the stats so it may not be that bad) or push DO students to become more competitive (I am hard pressed to compare competitiveness of DO vs. MD for obvious reasons). So what about COMLEX vs. USMLE. This is a whole other issue that may come into play.
Of course these are just my thoughts, if I am totally ignorant on these topics please ignore post as I am trying to reach 500.

 

[jhug]

if the AOA residencies think they can draw allopathic grads, let them go... Like I said in my reply above, maybe the competition would better the programs and bring them up to the standards to which the ACGME holds its programs.

i agree...
i guess what we have to ask is why...why would we want to combine the match? what do we all gain?
definitely more options/less limitation on what, when, and where...quality will have to increase or you will lose residencies (a fear might be an attitude of "let the md's do all the work of setting up and funding post-grad education...we'll just keep opening new schools") but i hope we have more pride (collectively) in our profession than to let that happen. I believe we could expand osteopathic medicine like never before...both ways, DO's into allo programs and MD's into osteo programs...the ama/allo community has been nice enough and accomodating enough to allow DO's to match into their programs (without that how many DO's would graduate and not have a place to do ANY residency???) i feel that we would "owe" them (for lack of a better word) the opening of our programs as well...