DO vs MD schools

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freshwater

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Just New to this forum,
what is the difference between going to a DO School or MD school.

1) Is the Entrance Criteria easy for DO vs MD (MCAT, GPA..) ?
2) Who is more expensive DO or MD ?
3) Which one is more hard to graduate ?
4) What about the programs difference like studies yrs plus Residency yrs ?
5) What about Jobs after graduating and which one pays higher ?

I am just looking into this so I can decide which way to go..

thanks..
 
There is a DO forum. There is a FAQ there.
 
Use the search button 🙂
I'm sure you'll find the thread
that will answer your question.
 
Just New to this forum,
what is the difference between going to a DO School or MD school.

1) Is the Entrance Criteria easy for DO vs MD (MCAT, GPA..) ?
2) Who is more expensive DO or MD ?
3) Which one is more hard to graduate ?
4) What about the programs difference like studies yrs plus Residency yrs ?
5) What about Jobs after graduating and which one pays higher ?

Your English is not completely clear, but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking:
1) DO schools tend to be less selective than MD schools. Mean GPA for MD is 3.6 and mean MCAT score is 30.6. I don't know the DO statistics for acceptees exactly, but I'd guess GPA of 3.3 and MCAT of 24, or so. (Anyone correct this if you know more accurately.)
2) DO schools are private and are as expensive as some private MD schools. State schools tend to be less expensive MD schools.
3) Both have similiar rates of graduation at about 95% in the US.
4) Both take four years to complete, and residencies in each are the same length. DO can apply for MD residencies, if they take USMLE tests, but MD cannot apply for a DO residency.
5) Salary for each is same if you compare within each specialty.
 
The DO MSAR thingy (whatever it's called) lists the average GPA as 3.45 and MCAT as 25.3. I don't recall if those were matriculant or acceptee averages, though.
 
Your English is not completely clear, but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking:
1) DO schools tend to be less selective than MD schools. Mean GPA for MD is 3.6 and mean MCAT score is 30.6. I don't know the DO statistics for acceptees exactly, but I'd guess GPA of 3.3 and MCAT of 24, or so. (Anyone correct this if you know more accurately.)
2) DO schools are private and are as expensive as some private MD schools. State schools tend to be less expensive MD schools.
3) Both have similiar rates of graduation at about 95% in the US.
4) Both take four years to complete, and residencies in each are the same length. DO can apply for MD residencies, if they take USMLE tests, but MD cannot apply for a DO residency.
5) Salary for each is same if you compare within each specialty.

1) There are public DO schools. Michigan State comes to mind.

2) I'm pretty sure the USMLE isn't required by all (although it will make you more competitive).

OP, you could have found your answers in less time than it took you to do type them on this thread. There is a pre osteo forum and this pretty cool webiste called GOOGLE.
 
I found this info in the pre-osteo, "What are my Chances?" thread:
Osteopathic (DO) Schools MCAT and GPA Averages


  • A.T. Still University School of Osteopathic Medicine – Arizona
    • MCAT – 24
    • Science GPA – 3.3
    • Overall GPA – 3.4
  • A.T. Still University Kirksville School of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 26
    • Science GPA – 3.3
    • Overall GPA – 3.5
  • Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University (AZCOM)
    • MCAT – 27
    • Science GPA – 3.4
    • Overall GPA – 3.4
  • Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University
    • MCAT – 26
    • Science GPA – 3.42
    • Overall GPA – 3.52
  • Des Moines University College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25.7
    • Science GPA – 3.49
    • Overall GPA – 3.56
  • Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25.14
    • Science GPA – 3.46
    • Overall GPA – 3.55
  • Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25
    • Science GPA – 3.2
    • Overall GPA – 3.3
  • Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine – Bradenton Campus
    • MCAT – 25
    • Science GPA – 3.27
    • Overall GPA – 3.35
  • Lincoln Memorial University DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 24.62
    • Science GPA – 3.18
    • Overall GPA – 3.29
  • Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 26-27
    • Science GPA – 3.5
    • Overall GPA – 3.5
  • New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of the New York Institute of Technology
    • MCAT – 26
    • Science GPA – 3.5
    • Overall GPA – 3.5
  • Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25.65
    • Science GPA – 3.33
    • Overall GPA – 3.43
  • Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25
    • Science GPA – 3.47
    • Overall GPA – 3.55
  • Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT –26.1
    • Science GPA – 3.58
    • Overall GPA –3.64
  • Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 24
    • Science GPA – 3.15
    • Overall GPA – 3.3
  • Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine – Georgia Campus
    • MCAT – 24
    • Science GPA – 3.15
    • Overall GPA – 3.3
  • Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 24
    • Science GPA – 3.3
    • Overall GPA – 3.4
  • Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine – New York
    • MCAT – 26
    • Science GPA – 3.1
    • Overall GPA – 3.3
  • Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine – California
    • MCAT – 26.16
    • Science GPA – 3.21
    • Overall GPA – 3.35
  • Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine – Nevada
    • MCAT – 26
    • Science GPA – 3.25
    • Overall GPA – 3.35
  • University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey School of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 27
    • Science GPA – 3.45
    • Overall GPA –3.5
  • University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 25.2
    • Science GPA –
    • Overall GPA – 3.37
  • University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 27
    • Science GPA – 3.44
    • Overall GPA – 3.52
  • Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 24
    • Science GPA – 3.5
    • Overall GPA – 3.6
  • Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific
    • MCAT – 27
    • Science GPA – 3.4
    • Overall GPA – 3.5
  • Western Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
    • MCAT – 23
    • Science GPA – 3.36
    • Overall GPA – 3.4
 
Thanks to all I think you have answered all of my questions.

Now I am thinking why should I go for MD if DO takes same time and the Pay is same for both. It looks like its easy to get into a DO school then MD.
I also read that DO graduates had hard time getting into Res. as compare to MD is that true. I dont want to spend all this time and money just to find out
I can not get a job.. or cannot practice ..

Currently I am a Senior in Electrical Engineering with GPA 3.58. I think I can Ace the MCAT easily.
Decided to go for Med since jobs are not good in engineering line because all
the jobs are moving to India & China.
 
I also read that DO graduates had hard time getting into Res. as compare to MD is that true.

Most DO grads go into DO residencies. They have a high match rate similiar to MDs going into MD residencies. Some DOs choose to take MD exams, do well, and are able to apply and match into MD residencies. What you may have heard, is that it is difficult for DOs to get into MD residencies, which is true, because they have to take two sets of exams to graduate and go into the match, instead of only the usual one set. Also, I get the impression that osteopathic schools are not very enthusiastic about their students jumping ship (so to speak) and thus provide no support to help them succeed.
 
Decided to go for Med since jobs are not good in engineering line because all the jobs are moving to India & China.

You'd better find a better reason for going into medicine when you are writing an application essay. You won't impress the adcomms if you say you want to practice medicine for improved job security.

As you read this forum more, you'll see that you are expected to have significant hours of clinical exposure, meaning being around sick people. So start volunteering somewhere to get that going, if you decide to pursue this course. Most folks also do research. You'll need to collect letters of reference. You need to demonstrate leadership. Non-medical volunteering is hopefully something you've been doing all along.
 
Thanks to all I think you have answered all of my questions.

Now I am thinking why should I go for MD if DO takes same time and the Pay is same for both. It looks like its easy to get into a DO school then MD.
I also read that DO graduates had hard time getting into Res. as compare to MD is that true. I dont want to spend all this time and money just to find out
I can not get a job.. or cannot practice ..

Currently I am a Senior in Electrical Engineering with GPA 3.58. I think I can Ace the MCAT easily.
Decided to go for Med since jobs are not good in engineering line because all
the jobs are moving to India & China.

If you can easily ACE the MCAT why bother asking DO vs. MD? MD all the way! 😎
 
I think I can Ace the MCAT easily.

I would take a few practice tests before you say something like that. In fact, I recommend you take about 10 timed practice tests before taking the real thing. That exam is not all about how much you know.. its equally about logical reasoning and applying it in sometimes very complicated problem solving.

Just giving you the heads up
 
DO's do not have a 'harder time finding res', DOs can apply to both MD residencies and their own AOA residencies (which MDs cant apply too).

DOs are more well rounded. If all you have to your name is some crappy EC, a 3.6 and a 35 on your MCAT you have a good shot at not getting in. DOs seem more about life experience and personability.

DOs have the potential to make more bank then their MD counterparts (especially so in PCP settings). DOs are trained in OMM, neuromusculoskeletal manipulation...
 
DO's do not have a 'harder time finding res', DOs can apply to both MD residencies and their own AOA residencies (which MDs cant apply too).

Please stop drinking the Kool-Aid. They do have a harder time finding allopathic residencies. 43% of osteopathic students think that their own residencies are below their allopathic counterparts in quality. There are, however, some great programs, and some bad ones, just like in the allopathic world. In addition, DO schools tend to land more people in primary care than their allopathic counterparts.

Note that some residencies do not have a counterpart in the DO world, such as Radiation Oncology, for example. And if you are hoping to land a big time university program, you'll have to go to the MD world, as most DO schools are stand alone and do not have the associations with a large research university that most allopathic schools do.

DOs are more well rounded. If all you have to your name is some crappy EC, a 3.6 and a 35 on your MCAT you have a good shot at not getting in. DOs seem more about life experience and personability.

And you base this on what exactly?

DOs have the potential to make more bank then their MD counterparts (especially so in PCP settings). DOs are trained in OMM, neuromusculoskeletal manipulation...

The vast majority of DOs do not practice OMM in their practice.


To answer the question - there is nothing wrong with going DO. You'll get a great education, and if you apply yourself, you can land many residencies, even in the allopathic world. The only downside I can think of is that in certain places (especially out west), many people have not heard of a DO, and you may either be constantly asked about your qualification, or have to deal with some places which are known not to take DOs in their program. Thankfully, this is quickly changing, and especially on the east coast, DOs don't face much/any hurdles in that regard. As time passes by, I think this will be true for the rest of the country as well.

In the end, I would definitely recommend DO over going offshore.
 
Please stop drinking the Kool-Aid. They do have a harder time finding allopathic residencies.

Sure.

43% of osteopathic students think that their own residencies are below their allopathic counterparts in quality.

Please cite reference.

There are, however, some great programs, and some bad ones, just like in the allopathic world.

of course.

In addition, DO schools tend to land more people in primary care than their allopathic counterparts.

Sure, historically. and still today many do go PCP route. Do you have a recent reference please?
Cause I have one for my school:
http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/Match_List.html

Looks like a good deal of students in 08' didnt go the PCP route... go figure.


Note that some residencies do not have a counterpart in the DO world, such as Radiation Oncology, for example.

Yea. Like pathology... and go figure I met a DO pathologist who is pretty damn successful...

And if you are hoping to land a big time university program, you'll have to go to the MD world, as most DO schools are stand alone and do not have the associations with a large research university that most allopathic schools do.

I don't know what you mean by this. If you are talking about doing research, you're right while DO schools do do research... it is no where near as strong as in the allo world.



And you base this on what exactly?



The vast majority of DOs do not practice OMM in their practice.

That's fine. I said they had the potential to make more money in the practice. Do a search in this forum, there are threads about it. Go to a MD pcp for a common ailment he'll write you a scrip. Go to an DO, he will write you a scrip and has the POTENTIAL to do quick OMM depending on ailment.
Both doc's will charge for scrip... DO will charge for OMM too...
Most DOs dont, and thats fine I was talking about potential.


To answer the question - there is nothing wrong with going DO. You'll get a great education, and if you apply yourself, you can land many residencies, even in the allopathic world. The only downside I can think of is that in certain places (especially out west), many people have not heard of a DO, and you may either be constantly asked about your qualification, or have to deal with some places which are known not to take DOs in their program. Thankfully, this is quickly changing, and especially on the east coast, DOs don't face much/any hurdles in that regard. As time passes by, I think this will be true for the rest of the country as well.

In the end, I would definitely recommend DO over going offshore.

Are you even qualified to 'answer the question'?

~15% of all practicing physicians are DO
~20-25% of all military physicians are DO
By 2012 ~20% of all practicing physicians will be DO
(projections by the AMA)

Once you take your MCAT maybe you can give advice then okay?
 
I think I can Ace the MCAT easily.

Wayyy too bold of a statement. The MCAT is a highly critical thinking exam and does not just blatantly test scientific knowledge. In my opinion, to be successful on the test, you have to prepare to take THE test ... not just know your science. You honestly have no clue how you'll do on the test until you take a few practice -ie: verbal could kill you, organic chem might be weak, slow reader, etc etc etc.
 
Please cite reference.

Of course, I should have done it in the beginning:

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/studentreport2004.pdf

Page 40, Table 16.

45% believe better training available at allopathic residencies, 35% believe it opens up more career choices (probably in academia).

Sure, historically. and still today many do go PCP route. Do you have a recent reference please?
Cause I have one for my school:
http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/Match_List.html

Looks like a good deal of students in 08' didnt go the PCP route... go figure.


We are comparing it to MD schools, not by themselves. Are you going to deny that a higher percentage of DO schools go to primary care or that DO schools have a stated goal to focus on this?

Yea. Like pathology... and go figure I met a DO pathologist who is pretty damn successful...

Pathology is not particularly competitive. Radiation Oncology is. How many DO rad. oncs are there per year?


I don't know what you mean by this. If you are talking about doing research, you're right while DO schools do do research... it is no where near as strong as in the allo world.

Yes, I mean basic science and clinical research. And also academic residencies see different cases than community based programs (which one is better depends on your goals, but DO students have to go outside their match to get a big list of academic hospitals).


Are you even qualified to 'answer the question'?

~15% of all practicing physicians are DO
~20-25% of all military physicians are DO
By 2012 ~20% of all practicing physicians will be DO
(projections by the AMA)

I don't really understand this post. I wasn't aware I denied this at all. Have you listened to any residents and people who, you know, actually practice:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=28829
bustbones26 said:
Cliff, you make an excellent point. I went to an osteopathic school on the eastern side of the county and DO's were " a dime a dozen" in most communities. Not many hospitals on the eastern side of the county did not have any difficulty accepting DO applicants. I came to a residency on the western side of the country myself and I saw a world of difference. For example, most of my attendings liken OMT to chiropractic work and think that I am going to cause vertebral artery shears on every patient I see. They even claim that there is literature out there on OMT causing such disasters (but oddly can't quote the source when asked). :laugh: They think it is the most dangerous thing to ever do on a patient. Another reason why they just don't know what a good COMLEX score is and ask me year after year when applications come rolling in and we all sit down to choose applicants.

That is not to say that there are no DOs on the western side of the country, there certainly is. But I certainly appreciated a different treatment and know that most institutions on the west coast cringe just a little when they see a DO application. I know of one particular institution close to where I am at that pretty much will throw your application in the trash, even if you took the USMLE and even if you are a solid applicant. (if you want to know, just PM me)

So, yes, I would agree with Cliff, if you apply to a program in california, do whatever you can to beef up your application. I would also add, that if you apply to any program on the western front: Washington, Oregon, California, do the same and be ready for the DO ignorance.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7071612&postcount=10

Once you take your MCAT maybe you can give advice then okay?

What does that got to do with anything? If I do badly, I won't be a doctor. If I do well, hopefully, I'll be a doctor. That doesn't negate anything I've said.
 
Lohktar not having even taken your MCATs does kind of negate some of what you say only because I'm not entirely sure you know as much about medicine as you profess.

And to freshwater, any MD or DO will see right through you and your attempt at medicine, you have to prove yourself and not just through grades. You'll be needing a history of volunteering, research, etc.
 
Lohktar not having even taken your MCATs does kind of negate some of what you say only because I'm not entirely sure you know as much about medicine as you profess.

I don't mean to imply I know a lot. I can only go by what medical students, residents, etc say. I don't think I've said anything that can't be substantiated, and if I have, I'll gladly take it back. I posted the exact link to the survey as asked, and I'm not making things up.

I don't think a couple months from now, when I'll have taken the MCAT, that I'll be able to do much better. Since you're a medical student, I'd definitely be interested in your opinion on where I'm wrong.
 
I would really advise against taking advice from pre-med students on differences between DO and MD schools.

To set some things straight:

The above, seemingly exhaustive table of DO school stats is outdated by years. For example, DMU's class of 2011 has an average GPA of 3.65 and an average MCAT of 26.63. The class of 2012 has even higher stats.

DOs enter MD and DO residencies. The AOA cites that approximately 70% of DOs within residencies at this time are in allopathic residencies.

The whole idea that "DOs treat the whole person" or are "more well rounded" is bologna. DOs may have pioneered holistic care, but it is not unique to us as it is the standard of care in modern medicine.

Curriculums do not differ between DO and MD schools, save for OMM.

You have the opportunity to enter any specialty as a DO. You may have to do a DO residency to get that derm spot you've always wanted, but once you're board certified, nobody gives a crap about where you trained (just heard a talk on this subject from EM residency program director from U of Iowa). Furthermore, if you work hard enough, you can get a very competitive allo residency.

Some less competitive MD residencies accept COMLEX. If you are remotely thinking about obtaining a competitive allo residency, you will have to take USMLE ( not a big deal since you studied for it by studying for COMLEX)

PM me if you have any more questions about DO schools, or just post them here.
 
I would really advise against taking advice from pre-med students on differences between DO and MD schools.
Does it really matter who says what if they cite reliable sources for the information? I'm not sure what difference taking the MCAT makes in one's knowledge of medical education. I didn't know much at all about med schools after taking (and doing very well on) the MCAT. This Lokhtar bashing seems to be roughly equivalent to the "LOL NUB" posts on video game forums.

The AOA cites that approximately 70% of DOs within residencies at this time are in allopathic residencies.
That's a pretty amazing statistic. What are DO students' Step 1 scores like? What specialties are most of these residents in?
 
I can't find any published data on Step I averages. DO students in 2007 had a 82% passing rate for first time takers (compared to 95% MD students). This is really isn't a bad pass rate as they have to take two exams instead of one and while they test on the same subjects, the focus is different (and obviously OMM).

Someone said the average score of passing students was something like 220-225, but I can't cite that information, so I'm not sure how accurate this is (minimum passing score is 185 for step I).
 
"Most DO grads go into DO residencies"

I can speak for my school -- over 50% went to Allopathic residencies. Not sure if it matters, but wanted to set the facts straight. I know a good deal that matched Osteo first (feb match), but had both sets of interviews during the season.
 
I poked about in the Pre-Osteo "What are my Chances?" thread trying to find more current acceptance stats for DO schools, and found this tool: http://www.studentdoc.com/do-school-search.html

Could those of you with recent experience in the DO application process comment on its accuracy/usefulness?

And thanks for the constructive comments posted above.
 
I poked about in the Pre-Osteo "What are my Chances?" thread trying to find more current acceptance stats for DO schools, and found this tool: http://www.studentdoc.com/do-school-search.html

Could those of you with recent experience in the DO application process comment on its accuracy/usefulness?

And thanks for the constructive comments posted above.

I've found that tool quite inaccurate for all schools.
 
Thank you boner.

and to everyone else. I wanted to point out the fact about lohktars relative inexperience, thats why i brought up the mcat... its too easy for people to feign knowledge.
 
I believe I've sourced the information you asked. I noticed you have no reply to that. And I did not pretend to have any credential I do not have.

In any case, my taking of the MCAT in a couple of months will not change my level of knowledge about the medical school procedure. The MCAT does not address medical school, residency, and practice issues.
 
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You lose lohktar.

Read your own reference.

Pg11: Less than 1/3 of Seniors are now choosing primary care as a speciality

DO's rate their schools as having about an 85% satisfaction rate.

you cite: "Only 12.5% of freshmen entering in 2003 thought that allopathic residencies offered better quality training, while more than 45% of seniors thought so. Geographic location, family considerations,
and the desire for training not available in osteopathic residencies also accounted for much of the
differences of opinion between freshmen and seniors concerning residency choice.
"

Come on man, you have to read all the sentences if you want to pass your MCAT...

You should also look at the table:

Reasons Given for Planning an Allopathic Residency

Believe better training available in allopathic program (45%)
Preferred osteopathic residency not available in preferred geographic location (39%)
Opens more career opportunities (35%)
Family considerations (30%)
Desire specialty training not available in osteopathic program (30%)
Military or government obligation (18%)
Shorter training period (15%)

Higher pay (11%)
Better chance of being accepted in allopathic program (10%)


There is a good portion of respondents who are doing it for OTHER reasons... Oh boy how data can be skewed?

Lohktar. Did you know global warming is directly correlated to the decrease in pirates over the pass 100 years?
As the # of pirates world wide decreases, the planet gets hotter...



EDIT: Take your MCATs then talk to me.
 
bout an 85% satisfaction rate.

you cite: "Only 12.5% of freshmen entering in 2003 thought that allopathic residencies offered better quality training, while more than 45% of seniors thought so. Geographic location, family considerations,
and the desire for training not available in osteopathic residencies also accounted for much of the
differences of opinion between freshmen and seniors concerning residency choice.
"

I still do not see how this statement is false:

"45% of osteopathic students think that their own residencies are below their allopathic counterparts in quality."

This is absolutely accurate. I did not claim, nor imply, that this was the only consideration for picking allopathic residencies.


You should also look at the table:

Reasons Given for Planning an Allopathic Residency

Believe better training available in allopathic program (45%)
Preferred osteopathic residency not available in preferred geographic location (39%)
Opens more career opportunities (35%)
Family considerations (30%)
Desire specialty training not available in osteopathic program (30%)
Military or government obligation (18%)
Shorter training period (15%)

Higher pay (11%)
Better chance of being accepted in allopathic program (10%)


There is a good portion of respondents who are doing it for OTHER reasons... Oh boy how data can be skewed?
I did, and I said:

"45% believe better training available at allopathic residencies, 35% believe it opens up more career choices (probably in academia)."

Again, I did not provide any wrong information. This is true. I am not aware of ever saying that there were no other reasons. Having other reasons does not make the reasons I gave less representative.


Lohktar. Did you know global warming is directly correlated to the decrease in pirates over the pass 100 years?
As the # of pirates world wide decreases, the planet gets hotter...
Yes, 45% of osteopathic seniors choosing allopathic residencies are claiming that better training is available at allopathic institution does not actually mean 45% of osteopathic seniors choosing allopathic seniors actually believe that better training is available at allopathic institutions. Could you elaborate?

Come on man, you have to read all the sentences if you want to pass your MCAT...
EDIT: Take your MCATs then talk to me.

You can choose to ignore me if you wish. I did not resort to personal comments and insults, and I have kept it confined to the facts. I'd appreciate it if you would show enough maturity to do the same.
 
I win.

I pointed out your skewed view, and you are trying to get high and mighty. It's all the same to me. Pre-meds have alot of skewed thoughts on reality.
 
Lokhtar -- sometimes you have to pick & choose your battles. This one seems pretty hopeless to me. It's like beating yourself against a brick wall.. a very dense brick wall. 😛
 
I win.

I pointed out your skewed view, and you are trying to get high and mighty. It's all the same to me. Pre-meds have alot of skewed thoughts on reality.

I am still waiting on where I made a mistake in facts. Also, it is sad that you consider not resorting to name calling 'high and mighty'.

calimed214 said:
Lokhtar -- sometimes you have to pick & choose your battles. This one seems pretty hopeless to me. It's like beating yourself against a brick wall.. a very dense brick wall. 😛

Fair enough. This'll be my last post on this thread.
 
Come on guys, it doesn't NEED to be a personal battle. DannMann made an EXCELLENT post (very good indeed my friend), but I do believe that Lokhtar is applying to several DO schools as well - namely DO/PhD?? So Dann's point definitely hit home, but no need to continually battle.
 
You didn't make a mistake in facts. Lohktar.

But you didn't present all the facts, your original post was as i put it, skewed... There is nothing wrong with that. everyone has their own opinions and agendas, I was just pointing out the fact that there was more to the story.

You ever hear the quote "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

If you feel like I blantantly called you a liar then I am sorry. My only intentions were to clear the air. I did take a pot-shot at you though for still being early in the premed process, what can you do...

This will be my last post on the topic.
 
~15% of all practicing physicians are DO
~20-25% of all military physicians are DO
By 2012 ~20% of all practicing physicians will be DO
Reality check:
The AOA hopes that there will be 90 thousand osteopaths practicing in the US by 2015. This number takes into account the new for-profit and other DO schools that are propping up in an "entrepreneurial fashion," like Rocky Vista.

This would represent less than 10% of all US practicing physicians in 2015 (a liberal estimate). Furthermore, DOs are not evenly distributed. Many places in the US will still have a percentage closer to zero.

There is also expected to be a huge shortage of primary care physicians. The majority of DOs go into primary care, and I expect this majority to grow as the shortage is realized.

N Engl J Med. 2008 Apr 17;358(16):1741-9.
 
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Reality check:
The AOA hopes that there will be 90 thousand osteopaths practicing in the US by 2015. This number takes into account the new for-profit and other DO schools that are propping up in an "entrepreneurial fashion," like Rocky Vista.

This would represent less than 10% of all US practicing physicians in 2015 (a liberal estimate). Furthermore, DOs are not evenly distributed. Many places in the US will still have a percentage closer to zero.

There is also expected to be a huge shortage of primary care physicians. The majority of DOs go into primary care, and I expect this majority to grow as the shortage is realized.

N Engl J Med. 2008 Apr 17;358(16):1741-9.

I think that the 20-25% by 20xx (not sure the actual year) takes into account the fact that right now 1 in every 4 or 5 students enrolled in a medical school is at an Osteopathic Medical school. From this ... it means that when these classes are the attendings of the US and the older guild retires ... 20-25% of physicians will be DOs. I'm not sure how accurate the idea is, but that what I've understood.
 
I think that the 20-25% by 20xx (not sure the actual year) takes into account the fact that right now 1 in every 4 or 5 students enrolled in a medical school is at an Osteopathic Medical school. From this ... it means that when these classes are the attendings of the US and the older guild retires ... 20-25% of physicians will be DOs. I'm not sure how accurate the idea is, but that what I've understood.

Is there any citation for this? If so, is it more credible than a recent, peer reviewed article from the New England Journal of Medicine? I suspect one or both answers are "no."

Also, I think you are missing the point. DannMann said that "15% of all practicing physicians are DO" right now. Not only is that clearly false, they will still be a far cry from 10% in 2015.
 
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Is there any citation for this? Regardless, it doesnt get much more credible than a recent, peer-reviewed article in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Also, I think you are missing the point. DannMann said that "15% of all practicing physicians are DO" right now. Not only is that false, they will still be a far cry from 10% in 2015.

I do not have citation for this, nor do I claim it to be fact (more just SDN conjecture). However, I don't think the data would be too hard to come up with and if anyone has these figures I think we would all appreciate it. I do not think the number of current Osteopathic attending physicians is 15% ( I thought it was somewhere slightly south of 10%), however these last few application cycles have seen record number of DO applicants and I don't think there is much argument that the number of Osteopathic physicians will rise dramatically in the next few decades.

Also, I don't think I would count on DOs necessarily to fill the primary care shortage. Many DO schools have a strong emphasis on primary care (though a lot of MD schools claim the same), but with the very, very poor incentives to enter these fields, more DOs are specializing and far less are going into PC fields.

Sorry I don't have data for some of this - I can double check stuff later.
 
I had this elaborate post which i accidentally closed.

I was wrong about my first number, I believe that was for my home state so I retract that...

I had some fancy math and numbers for you too which summed up the arguement with:

ALOT of MDs will be retiring in the next 20 years. (1/3 are over 55)
DOs = 20% of current students
By 2020 AOA expects 100,000 practicing DOs
The % of physician who are DO will increase greatly as a significant portion of MDs Die/Retire and as DOs open new schools...

Who cares anyway when we expect the nation to be short between 90 and 200 thousand doctors by 2012. No one will be short of business.
 
I had this elaborate post which i accidentally closed.

I was wrong about my first number, I believe that was for my home state so I retract that...

I had some fancy math and numbers for you too which summed up the arguement with:

ALOT of MDs will be retiring in the next 20 years. (1/3 are over 55)
DOs = 20% of current students
By 2020 AOA expects 100,000 practicing DOs
The % of physician who are DO will increase greatly as a significant portion of MDs Die/Retire and as DOs open new schools...

Who cares anyway when we expect the nation to be short between 90 and 200 thousand doctors by 2012. No one will be short of business.

Well there are some more stats for you Decicco. You have sources DannMann??
 
I had this elaborate post which i accidentally closed.

I was wrong about my first number, I believe that was for my home state so I retract that...

I had some fancy math and numbers for you too which summed up the arguement with:

ALOT of MDs will be retiring in the next 20 years. (1/3 are over 55)
DOs = 20% of current students
By 2020 AOA expects 100,000 practicing DOs

Any citations along with those "fancy math numbers"? If it is true that there will be 100,000 practicing osteopaths in 2020, then they will make up about 10% of physicians at that time. Again, DOs are not evenly distributed throughout the US and many places will still be close to 0%. In fields like Family Med, Emergency Med, Ped, and General Internal Med, their numbers may be higher.

N Engl J Med. 2008 Apr 17;358(16):1741-9.

Also, I don't think I would count on DOs necessarily to fill the primary care shortage. Many DO schools have a strong emphasis on primary care (though a lot of MD schools claim the same), but with the very, very poor incentives to enter these fields, more DOs are specializing and far less are going into PC fields.

Peter B. Ajluni of the AOA in 2008: "Since physicians are likely to practice within the area where they received their training, new colleges of osteopathic medicine are being established in some of the nation's most medically underserved regions, including New York City's Harlem community, which welcomed its inaugural class of osteopathic medical students last fall. As the osteopathic medical community looks toward future growth, it will continue to honor its tradition of producing primary care physicians to ensure that all people have access to health care. "
 
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Peter B. Ajluni of the AOA in 2008: "Since physicians are likely to practice within the area where they received their training, new colleges of osteopathic medicine are being established in some of the nation's most medically underserved regions, including New York City's Harlem community, which welcomed its inaugural class of osteopathic medical students last fall. As the osteopathic medical community looks toward future growth, it will continue to honor its tradition of producing primary care physicians to ensure that all people have access to health care. "

I think this is a wonderful goal, and opening up a DO school in a rural area IS a great way to get MORE primary care physicians into needed areas, but this in no way forces students into primary care. Think about it this way ...

Say an area has 2% primary care physicians, a DO school opens in the area and 35% of it's class enters primary care, and of that 10% of that class stay in the area. This greatly increases the needed amount of primary care physicians in the rural community, but in no way indicates that the majority if the class entered primary care, nor that the majority that did stayed in said area. The goal was still achieved, but by no means was the class 100% rural FM.


Also, just some more facts:


  • In 1960, there were 13,708 physicians who were graduates of the 5 osteopathic medical schools.
  • In 2002, there were 49,210 physicians from 19 osteopathic schools.
  • Between 1980 and 2005, the number of osteopathic graduates per year increased over 250 percent from about 1,000 to 2,800. This number is expected to approach 5,000 by 2015.[16]
  • In 2007, there were 25 colleges of osteopathic medicine in 28 locations.[17] One in five medical students in the United States is enrolled in an osteopathic medical school.[18]
  • By 2020, the number of osteopathic physicians will grow to 95,400, say expert predictions, according to the American Medical Association.[19]
-AMA says 95,400 by 2020 and the numbers show a huge increase in the last few decades.

-There is also no doubt some areas will also have more DOs than others (some go as high as 15-25%, others as low as 1-2%).

-Wikipedia (lol) also says that 51% entered MD residencies in 04, 46% in DO.

-Primary care:

Osteopathic physicians have historically entered primary care fields at a higher rate than their MD counterparts. Some osteopathic organizations make claims to a greater emphasis on the importance of primary care within osteopathic medicine. However, the proportion of osteopathic students choosing primary care fields, like that of their MD peers, is declining.[49] Currently, only one in five osteopathic medical students enters a family medicine residency (the largest primary care field).[50] In 2004, only 32% of osteopathic seniors planned careers in any primary care field; this percentage was down from a peak in 1996 of more than 50%.[48]

Also, I'm just curious, where are you getting your numbers from for total # of practicing physicians in 2020? I found a few different numbers while searching around, but too much variation.

Finally, there is a chart floating around SDN with % of DO students entering primary care fields broken down by school. Some schools have as low as 25-30% and others (such as WVCOM, ranked top in primary care) has up to 80%.
 
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This thread has strayed from its original intent. OP, please look at the pre-osteo FAQ here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=240220 for answers to all of your questions.

1) Is the Entrance Criteria easy for DO vs MD (MCAT, GPA..) ?
2) Who is more expensive DO or MD ?
3) Which one is more hard to graduate ?
4) What about the programs difference like studies yrs plus Residency yrs ?
5) What about Jobs after graduating and which one pays higher ?

1) DO ~3.45/26 or 27 ; MD ~3.65/30 or 31
2) School cost varies by school. Private institutions and out of state public schools usually cost the most.
3) Neither is harder to graduate, given you care about your education and get help when you need it.
4) Both programs have 4 years of medical school studies and then 3, 4, or 5 year residencies.
5) You'll get a job as an MD or DO and will not be discriminated in regards to pay.
 
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