Do White applicants have better educational status then Asian applicants?

[sejin8642]

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I just found some interesting facts that the acceptance rate of the White applicants of 2005 cycle was about 50.3 percent, whereas the acceptance rate of the Asian applicants was 43.1 percent. Do White students have better GPA and DAT scores? If not, do the most White applicants have outstanding extracurricular activities? If so, do you know where I can find that information? I want to find some statistic datas to fulfill my curiousity.

 

[pine88]

Might partly be because asian is an over-represented minority, so affirmative action works against Asian applicants.

 

[sejin8642]

Might partly be because asian is an over-represented minority, so affirmative action works against Asian applicants.

But my question is what is their educational status such as GPA, DAT, or extracurriculums. Because the Asian applicants' average status can be lower than the White applicants.

 

[zthang]

But my question is what is their educational status such as GPA, DAT, or extracurriculums. Because the Asian applicants' average status can be lower than the White applicants.

Depends...for instance on the DAT, i'm willing to bet asian either Org/Chem/QT scores are higher for asians, while Reading Comp is probably higher for whites.

 

[DDSY]

Depends...for instance on the DAT, i'm willing to bet asian either Org/Chem/QT scores are higher for asians, while Reading Comp is probably higher for whites.

As far as I know reading comprehension counts a lot more than math for dental school admission.. If it is true that whites have a much higher reading comp, then that largely explains the discrepancy.

I do not think there is affirmative action against asians--they are pretty much counted as whites in the application process.

 

[tinman831]

Are these "rates" the percent of Asians who get accepted out of the number of asians who applied or the simply the percentage of Asians attending dental school? The numbers lean towards Caucasians simply because there are more of them applying. I don't think either really has an edge over the other. What's your source for these numbers?

 

[tinman831]

Depends...for instance on the DAT, i'm willing to bet asian either Org/Chem/QT scores are higher for asians, while Reading Comp is probably higher for whites.

Let's not start stereotyping now. Do you have any statistics to back up your claim? 🙂

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

As far as I know reading comprehension counts a lot more than math for dental school admission.. If it is true that whites have a much higher reading comp, then that largely explains the discrepancy.

I do not think there is affirmative action against asians--they are pretty much counted as whites in the application process.

This is an assumption on top of another assumption...where is the stats for RC that whites did better? and you dont know if the majority of the schools value RC higher. What about grades, the other 50%...who gets that? May I remind you that most of us Asian Americans are second generation, and I dont think RC is a problem. Besides, the RC section is not like the verbal section on the SAT. For most schools it works against us, making ways for other race. NYU seems to be fair base on the number applied and the number accepted. Afirmative action is not a good piece of legislation because it makes different race compete agaisnt each other....there got to be a better way.

 

[dentstd]

This is an assumption on top of another assumption...where is the stats for RC that whites did better? and you dont know if the majority of the schools value RC higher. What about grades, the other 50%...who gets that? May I remind you that most of us Asian Americans are second generation, and I dont think RC is a problem. Besides, the RC section is not like the verbal section on the SAT. For most schools it works against us, making ways for other race. NYU seems to be fair base on the number applied and the number accepted. Afirmative action is not a good piece of legislation because it makes different race compete agaisnt each other....there got to be a better way.

No, there definately are stats for all this and much more. The ADA published those stats on their User Guide.

The Asians blow away the group in QR.

The Whites blow away the others in RC. The second highest scorer is, strangely enough, the American Indians.

Asians top the charts again in Bio. Close second by the Whites.

They top the charts in Gen Chem. Distant second by the Whites.

Likewise for Organic.

They top the charts in PAT. Very close second by the Whites.

And for all those sexists, the men did better in every section. They performed significantly better in PAT.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

No, there definately are stats for all this and much more. The ADA published those stats on their User Guide.

The Asians blow away the group in QR.

The Whites blow away the others in RC. The second highest scorer is, strangely enough, the American Indians.

Asians top the charts again in Bio. Close second by the Whites.

They top the charts in Gen Chem. Distant second by the Whites.

Likewise for Organic.

They top the charts in PAT. Very close second by the Whites.

And for all those sexists, the men did better in every section. They performed significantly better in PAT.

so we blew away on almost every other section and our gpa is probably higher than most yet we are not getting as much love? Once again, you're not taking gpa into account. People are overlooking that fact that we are over representing in the health business that's why they're not taking as much because of affirmative action. Look at the big picture. 😴
~What pisses me off is that we struggle just like every other minority, and yet we get no cigars. The Japanese got thrown into concentration camps, and the chinese got their ponytails cut of by ancient rednecks. WFT...no justice.

 

[dentstd]

so we blew away on almost every other section and our gpa is probably higher than most yet we are not getting as much love? Once again, you're not taking gpa into account. Also, may I remind you (again) that we have higher DAT scores. People are overlooking that fact that we are over representing in the health business that's why they're not taking as much because of affirmative action. Look at the big picture. 😴

The original quote sounds like a misquote. Not percent accepted but percent of the class?

Personally, I'd rather the entire dental class be one guy, ...me. And 74 girls in the class. White, Asian, American Indian...etc. (Am Ind. girls are remarkably attractive.)

 

[pacbum]

i bet that since they have a larger applicant pool, they have a larger variety of people, and more people with great stats, and more people with lower stats that don't get in. don't think it's a race game at all. just happens to work out that way

 

[dentstd]

so we blew away on almost every other section and our gpa is probably higher than most yet we are not getting as much love? Once again, you're not taking gpa into account. Also, may I remind you (again) that we have higher DAT scores. People are overlooking that fact that we are over representing in the health business that's why they're not taking as much because of affirmative action. Look at the big picture.

Get over it. This is healthcare. It's not about academics as much as ...providing care.

People with lower scores are also some of the MOST people-friendly persons out there. The interview is partly a means for determining who has the people skills and personality to make an excellent clinician. It is more than likely that those bookworms with higher scores who are antisocial, are just filtered out.

 

[StephL26]

~What pisses me off is that we struggle just like every other minority, and yet we get no cigars. The Japanese got thrown into concentration camps, and the chinese got their ponytails cut of by ancient rednecks. WFT...no justice.

Haha. That's awesome-not history- but your point is definitely true. I think Asians are too "Asian" in the States, yet too "American (White)" in Asia. It's really unfair sometimes-where the hell do second generation+ Asians fit in??? 😛

 

[CSI Dentist]

I think asking for your race on an application is very pointless. It should not be about that, as a matter of fact, it should be optional for you to state what race you are. That way it is a fair competition.

 

[dentstd]

I think asking for your race on an application is very pointless. It should not be about that, as a matter of fact, it should be optional for you to state what race you are. That way it is a fair competition.

That'd wipe out the minority applicants. There would be virtually no Blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

No, there definately are stats for all this and much more. The ADA published those stats on their User Guide.

The Asians blow away the group in QR.

The Whites blow away the others in RC. The second highest scorer is, strangely enough, the American Indians.

Asians top the charts again in Bio. Close second by the Whites.

They top the charts in Gen Chem. Distant second by the Whites.

sLikewise for Organic.

They top the charts in PAT. Very close second by the Whites.

And for all those sexists, the men did better in every section. They performed significantly better in PAT.

There is also the possibility that admissions committees value the RC score because it helps to root out Asian applicants and allows them to accept more white applicants.

But dentstd's numbers are the only objective thing on this thread. Those numbers draws no conclusions and doesnt suggest anything. However, lets not start a "whites are better than asians" argument because that is what this OP is looking for.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

Get over it. This is healthcare. It's not about academics as much as ...providing care.

People with lower scores are also some of the MOST people-friendly persons out there. The interview is partly a means for determining who has the people skills and personality to make an excellent clinician. It is more than likely that those bookworms with higher scores who are antisocial, are just filtered out.

This is the most pretentious post ever. You're suggesting that those that score high (asians) are most likely antisocial and that is why they're not being accepted.

So here is my argument, dental school is about providing care. So why drop one great applicant in favor of a less prepared applicant just because he/she has a different skin tone? I'm assuming those who are most prepared to learn and to disseminate learned information are most qualified to provide healthcare.

Your post is something the admissions committee would use to justify the fact that qualified Asian students are being left out in favor of what adcoms call "diversity."

 

[dentstd]

This is the most pretentious post ever. You're suggesting that those that score high (asians) are most likely antisocial and that is why they're not being accepted.

So here is my argument, dental school is about providing care. So why drop one great applicant in favor of a less prepared applicant just because he/she has a different skin tone? I'm assuming those who are most prepared to learn and to disseminate learned information are most qualified to provide healthcare.

Your post is something the admissions committee would use to justify the fact that qualified Asian students are being left out in favor of what adcoms call "diversity."

It's pretentious only if you misread meaning into it. I made no reference to race. You placed that reading there yourself.

Smart people tend to have less people skills, regardless of their race. People skills are essential in health fields. That's what the interviews are for. In screens for those lacking it. Thus, those exceptionally smart people lacking people skills will be filtered out.

 

[tinman831]

There is also the possibility that admissions committees value the RC score because it helps to root out Asian applicants and allows them to accept more white applicants.

But dentstd's numbers are the only objective thing on this thread. Those numbers draws no conclusions and doesnt suggest anything. However, lets not start a "whites are better than asians" argument because that is what this OP is looking for.

The admissions committee values the RC score because it helps to determine whether or not someone has a basic understanding of the English language, not because it weeds out Asian applicants like you suggest. The ADA makes you take the test so that schools can see whether or not you can handle the curriculum and the interview is there to test whether or not an applicant can communicate effectively. Race doesn't play much of a factor during the admissions process. Dental schools want people who are intelligent AND can communicate their thoughts and ideas.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

It's pretentious only if you misread meaning into it. I made no reference to race. You placed that reading there yourself.

Smart people tend to have less people skills. People skills are essential in health fields. That's what the interviews are for. In screens for those lacking it. Thus, those exceptionally smart people lacking social skills will be filtered out.

You seem to be forgetting your argument. TheDon states that Asians aren't "getting love" from dental schools. You counter by saying that its about providing healthcare, not about academics. Then you back up your claim by suggesting that those who do not get in must lack in social skills, directly refering to the Asian applicants that TheDon was originally talking about.

I didn't misread anything. You're simply taking away something you suggested because it helps your current argument with me 😉

 

[dentstd]

This is the most pretentious post ever. You're suggesting that those that score high (asians) are most likely antisocial and that is why they're not being accepted.

So here is my argument, dental school is about providing care. So why drop one great applicant in favor of a less prepared applicant just because he/she has a different skin tone? I'm assuming those who are most prepared to learn and to disseminate learned information are most qualified to provide healthcare.

Your post is something the admissions committee would use to justify the fact that qualified Asian students are being left out in favor of what adcoms call "diversity."

Who said anything about denying one applicant "because he/she has a different skin tone?" You're assuming race is the critical distinction here. How do you know that it's not some other factor? That distinction based on skin color is artificial.

Who says intelligence equates to excellence in clinical practice. You're artificially equating high entrance stats with being most qualified. Have you ever talked to the admissions committee? 4.0's are notorious for making HORRIBLE health practicioners. Schools purposely avoid accepting students with ultra high board scores/ultra GPA's for the very reason that they don't want socially inept clinicians dealing with the average patient.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

The admissions committee values the RC score because it helps to determine whether or not someone has a basic understanding of the English language, not because it weeds out Asian applicants like you suggest. The ADA makes you take the test so that schools can see whether or not you can handle the curriculum and the interview is there to test whether or not an applicant can communicate effectively. Race doesn't play much of a factor during the admissions process. Dental schools want people who are intelligent AND can communicate their thoughts and ideas.

Tinman, you are absolutely right when you talk about dental school admissions policies regarding the importance of RC scores. I actually made my earlier statement to bring light to the fact that admissions committees for every institution of higher education had to change their focus ever since Asians started taking a larger percentage of seats at colleges. In the past, grades and test scores were enough to get people into college. Nowadays, its about what you do outside of school and your extracurriculars. How bout them apples?

 

[dentstd]

You seem to be forgetting your argument. TheDon states that Asians aren't "getting love" from dental schools. You counter by saying that its about providing healthcare, not about academics. Then you back up your claim by suggesting that those who do not get in must lack in social skills, directly refering to the Asian applicants that TheDon was originally talking about.

I didn't misread anything. You're simply taking away something you suggested because it helps your current argument with me 😉

I'm not talking about TheDon, nor am I making any reference to him.

Are you not entering a health profession? or are you going into academic dentistry?

 

[EyeAmCommi]

Who said anything about denying one applicant "because he/she has a different skin tone?" You're assuming race is the critical distinction here. How do you know that it's not some other factor? That distinction based on skin color is artificial.

Who says intelligence equates to excellence in clinical practice. You're artificially equating high entrance stats with being most qualified. Have you ever talked to the admissions committee? 4.0's are notorious for making HORRIBLE health practicioners. Schools purposely avoid accepting students with ultra high board scores/ultra GPA's for the very reason that they don't want socially inept clinicians dealing with the average patient.

I agree. The smartest people will not always make the best practitioners. But I don't see how keeping out the smartest kids causes Asians to lose seats at dental schools cause I'm asian and I'm not smart.

 

[cdpiano27]

I am in a graduate program with 50% from Asian countries and mostly mainland China and they can get in 99th percentile verbal GRE by having very innovative study techniques.

I got in 94th percentile verbal by the way. There are many ways of simply test-taking.

 

[dentstd]

I agree. The smartest people will not always make the best practitioners. But I don't see how keeping out the smartest kids causes Asians to lose seats at dental schools cause I'm asian and I'm not smart.

Is this "keeping Asians out" mentality a truth, or simply the most common reading based on dissatisfaction of not getting in? As it is, close to half the spots in dental schools are asians. Is that not good enough? Must there be more?

 

[You]

Answer is NO! Simply there are more white applicants in the pool.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4402852&postcount=5

Some schools don't even seem to care much about RC. Not all white people have high RC anyway.

Stop fooling yourself or enlist others into this warp stereotype.

Your views about life will emanate from within. If you questions everything in terms of racially questions, in the end, you'll get racial answers. Funny how our mind works.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

Is this "keeping Asians out" mentality a truth, or simply the most common reading based on dissatisfaction of not getting in? As it is, close to half the spots in dental schools are asians. Is that not good enough? Must there be more?

I'm not looking for a bigger slice of the pie. I don't feel like I am the spokesperson in the fight to help Asians consume every single seat in dental school either. I'm merely bringing light to an ancient topic that has hurt Asian applicants over the past decade.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

Answer is NO! Simply there are more white applicants in the pool.

The OP was talking about percentages; not numbers of applicants.

 

[nokia123]

Depends...for instance on the DAT, i'm willing to bet asian either Org/Chem/QT scores are higher for asians, while Reading Comp is probably higher for whites.

i second this.

 

[sejin8642]

Are these "rates" the percent of Asians who get accepted out of the number of asians who applied or the simply the percentage of Asians attending dental school? The numbers lean towards Caucasians simply because there are more of them applying. I don't think either really has an edge over the other. What's your source for these numbers?

I got it from ADEA website.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

There is also the possibility that admissions committees value the RC score because it helps to root out Asian applicants and allows them to accept more white applicants.

This is the argument that my premed/predental advisor are pointing to Asians at my school. For the SAT they got the verbal part, for the MCAT they got the verbal part, for the DAT they got the RC. These are locked gates for many Asian Americans. Other people got an unfair advantage over us because their parents speak the language on the test at home, while we speak "pow choa khoa woo wao tao fuk dis.. dis suk arse" at home with our parents because it's our language, and it doesn't help us on the test. I hate to see my friends gettting 800 on the math part then 370 on the verbal, 14 14 and 7 on the mcat, and a 15 on RC.

 

[sejin8642]

I see a lot of racial arguments here because my post might have led you to mispoint. I was simply asking the datas to determine which school has what stats and where I can find them et cetera.

 

[cdmOMR]

Asians make up 4.3% of the total US population.

40-50% of the people attending dental school are asian.

Stop complaining.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

Asians make up 4.3% of the total US population.

40-50% of the people attending dental school are asian.

Stop complaining.

What does it got to do with the population? to make this case valid you look at the number of applicants vs acceptance rate. Stop complaining?????? I bet Martin Luther King and Ghandi were complaining too!

 

[maksidaa]

i still don't understand how smart people = not friendly = poor dentists = asians. i think the fact of the matter is that as long as race plays a role in the application process issues like these will always arise.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

i still don't understand how smart people = not friendly = poor dentists = asians.

It's a stereotype that most Americans have probably internalized. When an interviewer sees an Asian American applicant, this is probably the first thing he/she thinks.

 

[dentstd]

Let's all just stop this stupidity before it escalates into something even more stupid. This topic must die, and this thread must die.

 

[cdmOMR]

What does it got to do with the population? to make this case valid you look at the number of applicants vs acceptance rate. Stop complaining?????? I bet Martin Luther King and Ghandi were complaining too!

Oh yes today's asians are just as opressed as the blacks in the 1950's🙄 . I was watching a story on Nightline or one of those shows about this asian kid who had all the bells and whistles of a perfect SAT and a perfect GPA and all of that...and was making a huge fuss because he didnt get into Harvard (or one of the Ivy Leagues)...the poor kid had to settle for Yale 😱 . I think that bias against asians compared to whites in dental schools is questionable at best (in a true racist "we dont want asians here" kind of way), and I agree that asians just kinda get lumped in with whites by the Adcoms for the most part. The application process is not a cut and dry one...if all the dental schools just took the top X GPA's and DAT scores you would need a 3.8 to get into any place.

I agree that using a persons race as a factor when getting in to a school (either work for or against them) is wrong but if we dont want a completely asian and white dominated field, then we are going to have to live with some discrimination. Do I like it, no, but then again I have no say in the process.

*also I used population to show over-representation....and not a little over, a lot over. not saying its a bad thing, but it shows why the Adcoms may be "weeding out" asians. Unless by over-representation it is meant by the percent of people accepted within their race?? That I dont know.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

Oh yes today's asians are just as opressed as the blacks in the 1950's🙄 . I was watching a story on Nightline or one of those shows about this asian kid who had all the bells and whistles of a perfect SAT and a perfect GPA and all of that...and was making a huge fuss because he didnt get into Harvard (or one of the Ivy Leagues)...the poor kid had to settle for Yale 😱 . I think that bias against asians compared to whites in dental schools is questionable at best (in a true racist "we dont want asians here" kind of way), and I agree that asians just kinda get lumped in with whites by the Adcoms for the most part. The application process is not a cut and dry one...if all the dental schools just took the top X GPA's and DAT scores you would need a 3.8 to get into any place.

I agree that using a persons race as a factor when getting in to a school (either work for or against them) is wrong but if we dont want a completely asian and white dominated field, then we are going to have to live with some discrimination. Do I like it, no, but then again I have no say in the process.

*also I used population to show over-representation....and not a little over, a lot over. not saying its a bad thing, but it shows why the Adcoms may be "weeding out" asians. Unless by over-representation it is meant by the percent of people accepted within their race?? That I dont know.

if you don't know i don't think you should say anything. I wish we are lumped with the whites, but the stats don't show it. I was making an analogy, don't take it to extreme. You sound like my cat when it farts.

 

[tncekm]

if you don't know i don't think you should say anything. I wish we are lumped with the whites, but the stats don't show it. I was making an analogy, don't take it to extreme. You sound like my cat when it farts.

I think this may be your problem...its not not scores, its communication skills. You make absolutely no sense!

Where the hell did the farting cat come from? Jesus.

 

[cdmOMR]

if you don't know i don't think you should say anything. I wish we are lumped with the whites, but the stats don't show it. I was making an analogy, don't take it to extreme. You sound like my cat when it farts.

I was stating my opinion on what the adcoms do while doing their job. If you know what really goes on behind closed doors please enlighten us! And as for the over-represented thing, does it not mean there are more people in dental school of a particular race then are people of that particular race in the country? If its not that please tell me, because that is what I have always thought, and I dont want to keep on thinking the wrong thing.

Oh, and thanks for the personal attack, it really makes you better than me👍 .

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

all i'm trying to say is standing up for injustice is not complaining! And yes i said it...injustice

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

it was my cat and it just farted....

but it sounds like you need to work on your communication skills too...

...its not not scores

 

[tncekm]

it was my cat and it just farted....

but it sounds like you need to work on your communication skills too...

I made a typo and you made a very stupid comparison. Big difference.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

Oh, and thanks for the personal attack, it really makes you better than me👍 .

I apologize for the personal attack...i tend to get a bit emotional when it comes to this topic.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

I made a typo and you made a very stupid comparison. Big difference.

sorry about the cat analogy!

 

[tncekm]

sorry about the cat analogy!

Meh, bygones.

BTW, I just ran a crude t-test on acceptance rates over the past 4 years (based on MSAR, premed, data) of whites v asians.

Over 4 years the average white acceptance rate was 52.6% and asian was 50.4% with a P = 0.07 (therefore, no significance b/c P > 0.05)

Considering the very close performance among white and asian applicants in the science fields of the MCAT, this is not too suprising. I see no evidence of discrimination there.

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

Meh, bygones.

BTW, I just ran a crude t-test on acceptance rates over the past 4 years (based on MSAR, premed, data) of whites v asians.

Over 4 years the average white acceptance rate was 52.6% and asian was 50.4% with a P = 0.07 (therefore, no significance b/c P > 0.05)

Considering the very close performance among white and asian applicants in the science fields of the MCAT, this is not too suprising. I see no evidence of discrimination there.

if you are as passionate on this topic as I am...go here for a better stats comparision http://www.asianam.org/sap.htm

or here http://www.asianam.org/statistics reverse.htm

reserve discrimination is not an illusion