Do you crack on your DO collegues?

[Chief Resident]

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Now why does Chief Resident have this particular interest in finding out if most DO students were MD rejects?

Just wondering because nobody's given a clear answer on it yet.

But it's kind of interesting that some of the more vocal D.O. proponents are refraining from answering this simple question.

 

[Gfunk6]

MD schools are competitive because of a limit in the seats, not because of some people are unqualified to be good doctors, just like certain specialties are competitive not because only a select few are capable. Anyone of decent intelligence could be well-trained in a specialty after spending all that resources and practicing for 7 years .

Some MDs/people have this really simple minded mentality thinking that if something's competitive to get in therefore people who don't meet the "standards" cannot possibly perform well. For example, We all know that derm is super competitive but come on, someone with a 190 on usmle or 27mcat(if people love looking at "prior" stuff)can be just as great of a dermatolgist, but in no way would he be able to match. Derm is not that hard

teh truth 👍

Though RadOnc is exceedingly competitive now, it was the domain of FMGs as recently as seven years ago. To assert that the current attendings who trained before then are somehow not qualified is ludicrous.

 

[Chief Resident]

Also regarding this issue, do residency directors on average prefer D.O. grads or M.D. grads fom foreign schools (assuming they had comparable stats)?

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Also regarding this issue, do residency directors on average prefer D.O. grads or M.D. grads fom foreign schools (assuming they had comparable stats)?

Given that they have similar entering qualifcations and a similar USMLE failure rate (you have to adjust the reported 30% DO failure rate downward for the self-selection factor of which students take it), I don't think there is any particular benefit, though you'll probably hear some of these "non-competive outraged by the hipocracy of thinking academic achievement bears some significance to long-term performance as a physician" state otherwise. If you look at the match lists from a DO school and a Carribean school (a comparison was made here a few days ago-- don't remember the thread off-hand), you'll see that they're pretty similar. Largely primary care at community programs, but a few Hopkins, Mayo, type matches in non-uber-competitive fields (gas, pm&r, for example). The people who really, truly are there because they chose it or who had some legitimate exenuating circumstances for low undergrad performance seem to do fine in the match.

I don't really understand why these guys are so down on academic achievement or seem so mystified by why people would be annoyed when they go and argue that getting a 3.9 and 3.4 in your undergrad studies are equivalent or that having an 8% versus a 40% Step 1 failure doesn't indicate anything. Then, they'll claim that having a crappy MCAT means you're a nicer person. By that logic, we should admit people with the lowest MCATs possible-- I'm sure they have a lot of "humility," though probably not for the right reasons.

 

[D.O. Guy]

I have nothing against DOs, 90% of them will never have a chance to be anything but primary care docs, and better them than NPs and PAs getting more territory, but I do have a problem when they are so defensive about the obvious fact that it is possible that such crazy things as mcat and gpa might have something to do with how good of a doctor you are going to be. I mean, everyone knows you have to take the mcat to go to med school and that you have to do well. Doing well requires two things, hard work and intelligence, and if someone gets a low score, say 23 (average D.O. score), I question whether they had the proper work ethic or intelligence if they can't do well on a test that they know will have a big effect on their future.

 

[ivan lewis]

To answer the original post, there are definitely MDs out there (lots of them) at all levels who tend to look down on FMGs and DOs. Whether you agree or disagree with these guys should not affect your decision in choosing a medical school. I think you should look at it this way.
If you go to a DO school, most likely you'll end up with a good medical education but also end up with a serious disadvantage when it comes to residency selection. If you decide during med school that you love family practice and want to do that in Iowa, hey no prob matching there with a MD or a DO. But let's say you decide that you love neurosurg and have to live in a large city either in Cali or the Northeast. If you went to an MD school and did fairly well you'll probably secure a spot. However you'd better be a f-ing superstar for you to even have a shot as a DO. And there is no way you're matching at one of the academic powerhouses. There are many programs in the country who will not even consider(!) DOs for their residencies.
What I'm trying to say is that you just have so many more doors open for you with an MD vs a DO. Why would you throw away that advantage b/c you had a fuzzy feeling when you visited a DO school???
You might be saying to yourself "well, I DO want to be a FP in Iowa!!!" Yeah, well, I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician before med school and now I'm in surgery. A good majority of people (at least in my med school) change their minds multiple times before they settle on one.
Think about this rationally and it's really a no brainer!

 

[OSUdoc08]

I have nothing against DOs, 90% of them will never have a chance to be anything but primary care docs, and better them than NPs and PAs getting more territory, but I do have a problem when they are so defensive about the obvious fact that it is possible that such crazy things as mcat and gpa might have something to do with how good of a doctor you are going to be. I mean, everyone knows you have to take the mcat to go to med school and that you have to do well. Doing well requires two things, hard work and intelligence, and if someone gets a low score, say 23 (average D.O. score), I question whether they had the proper work ethic or intelligence if they can't do well on a test that they know will have a big effect on their future.

The statistics and averages here (90%, 23, etc.) are just false. Back this up with some proof, buddy.

TCOM had an average of 28 on the MCAT last year, for example.

 

[redgrover]

Yeah, yeah. And I didn't go to Harvard because I didn't get in. Heck, I didn't even bother applying. Better example? I didn't go to Emory because I didn't get in. And neither did you.

So anyone who doesn't at least go to Emory doesn't deserve the same respect as those who did? You have to draw a line somewhere, right? I mean, at what point does it become demeaning that you didn't get into a place?

I'm not busting on any DOs for whatever reason. They go through the med school curriculum and are allowed to practice medicine, then let them be doctors just like the rest of us M.D.s. That makes them my colleagues in my book, and I'm not above to putting myself above a colleague until I find them incompetent and/or dangerous to patients. And frankly, I think all med students are potentially dangerous to patients. 🙂

 

[allendo]

The reason I'm happy with D.O. is b/c I know I will end up doing one of the three(IM, EM, or FP) Maybe a combo of IM/EM or FP/EM and will have no problem matching as a D.O. Oh and for the neurosurg comment, there are D.O. neurosurg programs and I don't hear alot of people in my class wanting to go into that field anyway. Most say FP, Peds, IM, or EM (all primary care)!

 

[crys20]

Wow finally a thread of mine takes off. 🙂

Chief Resident...Yes, I would say that a MAJORITY of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools, or maybe enough MD schools to stay in a certain state. When you say most I don't know what you mean. I'm sure it isn't 90%, ya know what I mean? I'll be a DO w/ a 30 MCAT and I know of many others who will be too. Not EVERYONE at these schools is an allo reject and not EVERYONE has a wretched MCAT, so making generalizatiosn really sucks.

Allendo, I'm w/ ya again. I agree that going DO over MD limits you. But I am pretty damn certain I will go into something primary. IM, FP, or peds, or med-peds maybe, OB possibly, ER probably not. Surgery no. Derm, rads, gas, no interest. Yes I realize that people change their minds, but the chance of me changing my mind from those fields to something uber competitive is slim. The other clincher is I feel pretty certain that I would at least be HAPPY in any of those fields, ya know. So yeah DO is a disadv for residency but what is the chance that that will ever affect me? 10%? So then it becomes not such an issue for me in my decision.

 

[allendo]

Wow finally a thread of mine takes off. 🙂

Chief Resident...Yes, I would say that a MAJORITY of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools, or maybe enough MD schools to stay in a certain state. When you say most I don't know what you mean. I'm sure it isn't 90%, ya know what I mean? I'll be a DO w/ a 30 MCAT and I know of many others who will be too. Not EVERYONE at these schools is an allo reject and not EVERYONE has a wretched MCAT, so making generalizatiosn really sucks.

Allendo, I'm w/ ya again. I agree that going DO over MD limits you. But I am pretty damn certain I will go into something primary. IM, FP, or peds, or med-peds maybe, OB possibly, ER probably not. Surgery no. Derm, rads, gas, no interest. Yes I realize that people change their minds, but the chance of me changing my mind from those fields to something uber competitive is slim. The other clincher is I feel pretty certain that I would at least be HAPPY in any of those fields, ya know. So yeah DO is a disadv for residency but what is the chance that that will ever affect me? 10%? So then it becomes not such an issue for me in my decision.

Amen, the worst case would be I have to go FP but I can still work ER in my hometown b/c it's small 30k pop. Basically, any primary care doc can do ER from the area I'm from so I'm fine either way. Most of the docs in our area are the dreaded primary care doc and they make $$$$$$$. I know it's not flashy, but then again I not a flashy person.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

just like I believe that majority of General Surgery residents were probably rejects from other surgical specialties such as neuro, cardio

Hey now... I don't think that's a fair statement. I hope to match into GS (eventually... I'm only a first-year) and it's because working on abdominal and thoracic viscera holds more interest for me than bones or brains. General surgeons do the bread-and-butter casework that medicine depends on, and they are the oncologists' best friend. GS also has the big surgical fellowships like trauma, CT (that would be your "cardio") and so on. Saying that only people who can't match into other surgical fields match into surgery is as fallacious as stating that only people who can't match into other specialties go into IM.

/rant

 

[samdwi]

After all has been said and done, I look forward to working with my MD counterparts wherever I end up in my medical career. Our nation will face a shortage of 200,000 physicians by 2020, which will be, for most of us on this thread, our prime working years. I trust all of us to be WAY too busy to be able to even care who amongst us is DO or MD as long as we can effectively clear the waiting room - waiting rooms which will be filled with the generation of our parents - don't lose focus guys!

 

[Bull's eye]

Just wondering because nobody's given a clear answer on it yet.

But it's kind of interesting that some of the more vocal D.O. proponents are refraining from answering this simple question.

The answer is yes. Most go to DO school because they didn't get into MD school. Who knows what the percentage is, but there are a surprisingly large group that choose the DO path. THere are also some that would rather go to a DO school then their state school but it is cheaper so they end up at the state school. For example, I turned down KU to go to KCUMB (formerly UHS) because the rumor (from an alumni) was they were doing bad on the USMLE and it may cause problems. Was it true? I don't know, but I ended up in DO school because of it. Now I'm in Orthopedics, work alongside MD residents and it is never an issue. As a matter of fact, I'm the only one who ever brings it up in a joking way ("Don't mess with the power of the DO." That type of stuff.)

 

[priu]

I find it disheartening that D.O.'s are perpetuating some of the "stereotypes" (quoted because to a CERTAIN EXTENT they are true), like how all DO's want to go into and end up in primary care in response to the person who was saying why DO when you can get the specialty advantages of an MD. Now I'm not saying he's wrong, but I disagree with the extent of its portrayal. For the in state schools, our DO school residency match list is right on par with the MD schools and in some specialities exceeds it (3 derm matches at the DO whereas one of the MD schools has 2 derm matches and the other MD 2). I'd love to give a breakdown and go more in depth, but I don't have the time... if you're interested then check out residency match lists. Sure you'll find maybe a few or some DO schools in which the vast majority of residency matches are primary cary, but then again these schools are not representative of the whole. The 'whole' is certainly primary-care ORIENTED, but NOT definitevely. I'm one of those applicants who has a shot at MD and DO, but would still give equal consideration to attending a DO school.

 

[fuegorama]

Also regarding this issue, do residency directors on average prefer D.O. grads or M.D. grads fom foreign schools (assuming they had comparable stats)?

Not a cop out, but isn't this a pretty subjective decision with multiple factors involved. I'll use the tired and accurate anecdotal evidence that DOs make up about 4% of the physician workforce but account for ~15% of the PM&R docs. Could there be some bias for folks that have manipulation skilz?

On the other hand, some of my pre-matriculation residency targets won't even let me rotate. (something I did not know during application) Is there a bias against??????...well I'm not sure what the bias is if you won't even give a candidate a chance, but it's definitely there .


Now to get back to the OP and ask an anti-DO MD wannabe a question-will you be "ripping" on a colleague that takes and passes two separate sets of boards, rotates with your peers and can hang/occasionally wow them, gets into that ACGME residency despite the barriers of ignorance?
Is this enough?
Is anything? (short of re-applying to AMCAS and going to a Jeebus Tech School of Medical Things that carries LCME accreditation)

Or in your undoubtedly young sparkly and intelligent eyes is the DO a mark of shame that deserves only your derision no matter what quality physician carries those initials?

 

[ForbiddenComma]

"For example, I turned down KU to go to KCUMB (formerly UHS) because the rumor (from an alumni) was they were doing bad on the USMLE and it may cause problems. "

Heh, I did the exact opposite 😉

Whatever rumors you heard were exaggerated. KU may not be a top-10 school, but we hold our own not only with the boards, but also with the shelf exams that most or all of the preclinical courses use. Step 1 pass rates are well into the 90s, and we are typically above the 50th percentile on the shelf exams.

Not to say that KU is "better" than KCUMB of course... Once a month we first-years pull a day of clinical work, and my attending also takes on M3s from KCUMB. Very cool people. We join together to bag on UMKC

 

[MrTee]

Ummmmm.....thousands, if tens of thousands of students graduate every year with between $50K and $150K in undergraduate debt. They vast majority of them will only find jobs starting at between $35K-$75K. Are they f'ing *****s too?

Yes, it's pretty *****ic to go to a private undergrad institution and be in massive debt to earn 35K. I would have a hard time justifying paying that kind of cash even if the school was Harvard, Yale, or Princeton if I knew I wasn't going to go into something lucrative.

 

[PoorMD]

It is well documented that the best primary care schools are all DO granting schools. There is no reason to "rip on" DOs, especially since they are statistically at or above our level (MD level) in primary care education. To belittle someone for attending a DO school is like the kids who played football making fun of the hockey team- it's just ridiculous. We all represent the same cause anyway, and those hard-working DOs should be given respect

 

[Poety]

While I generally agree with the sentiment of your post (and agree that med students are not in a position to make fun of attendings or more experienced doctors in any respect), your above quote assumes that the academic quality of the student body adds nothing to the quality of the education. I'm not sure that is true, given the amount you tend to end up learning from your fellow students in med school. There are sometimes definite learning advantages in surrounding yourself with uber-smart overachievers ("self-centered, egotistical, arrogant" though they may be) and you lose out on this if your school's admissions standards and criteria are set too low.

Ever here of DIVERSITY? I learned the most from two types of people, the ones with minimal experience that knew how to take exams and could help me study in the first two years, and the ones with a TON of life experience that helped me keep everything in perspective. BALANCE PEOPLE BALANCE!!

Its naive to think that a medical school class should be made up of uber-smart overachievers alone - often those brilliant people lack in other areas and VICE VERSA for the ones that aren't as brilliant.

Do you as physicians not realize that gifts can come in all different forms? That perhaps what appears to be lack of intelligence to some may actually be brilliance in another form - i.e. I thought this one resident was just dense, I really really did, but you know what? That resident had a GIFT with working with children and when I saw his interaction and how he could get through to them, calm them, etc etc.. I FELT stupid.

Medicine is an ART, if you don't have a nice balance you will either end up as 1. the dingus that no one likes that knows EVERYTHING, but no one cares that you know everything because they can't stand you anyway

or

2. the idiot that doesn't know crap and needs everyone to explain everything to them which is utterly annoying AND scary

Everyone whos bashing other people on this thread needs to take a look at themselves and find some BALANCE. Yeah perhaps some people do care about DO/MD/IMG, but why should these people even matter? They're ignorant.

And by the way, I'm a US MD grad, and I love DO's and IMG's.

 

[MrHide]

test

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yeah, yeah. And I didn't go to Harvard because I didn't get in. Heck, I didn't even bother applying. Better example? I didn't go to Emory because I didn't get in. And neither did you.

So anyone who doesn't at least go to Emory doesn't deserve the same respect as those who did? You have to draw a line somewhere, right? I mean, at what point does it become demeaning that you didn't get into a place?

I'm not busting on any DOs for whatever reason. They go through the med school curriculum and are allowed to practice medicine, then let them be doctors just like the rest of us M.D.s. That makes them my colleagues in my book, and I'm not above to putting myself above a colleague until I find them incompetent and/or dangerous to patients. And frankly, I think all med students are potentially dangerous to patients. 🙂

awesome post!

 

[matthew45]

I guess I'm always a little bit curious what exactly the "philosophy" of DO education entails... Can someone maybe enlighten me?

I've heard that it's all about "treating the whole pt" or some other such thing but I can tell you my MD school is pretty touchy-feely about stuff like that too... (Not that it's a bad thing)

 

[sacrament]

I guess I'm always a little bit curious what exactly the "philosophy" of DO education entails... Can someone maybe enlighten me?

I've heard that it's all about "treating the whole pt" or some other such thing but I can tell you my MD school is pretty touchy-feely about stuff like that too... (Not that it's a bad thing)

Anybody who spouts the whole "DO philosophy" selling point has been brainwashed by the propaganda. The only discernable difference between MD and DO philosophy is that DOs place more importance on therapeutic massage.

 

[Chief Resident]

If you check out the DO forum on SDN you'll find threads like:

Why do DO's hide their credentials from the public?
and
do you tell people you go to an "osteopathic" medical school?

They are virtually ripping on their own degree so it's no surprise that others give them a hard time.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I guess I'm always a little bit curious what exactly the "philosophy" of DO education entails... Can someone maybe enlighten me?

I've heard that it's all about "treating the whole pt" or some other such thing but I can tell you my MD school is pretty touchy-feely about stuff like that too... (Not that it's a bad thing)

Osteopathic schools place an emphasis on somatovisceral, viscerosomatic, and somatosomatic responses. Allopathic schools do not provide traning on the treatment of somatic problems.

No comments about the validity of somatic problems, please. Physical therapists are employed by allopathic physicians to treat such problems everywhere. Osteopathic physicians learn to treat this problem without the help of an outside provider, and utilize additional techniques as well.

 

[tkim]

If you check out the DO forum on SDN you'll find threads like:

Why do DO's hide their credentials from the public?
and
do you tell people you go to an "osteopathic" medical school?

They are virtually ripping on their own degree so it's no surprise that others give them a hard time.

Your statement would be more valid if either of the original posters were DO students. Neither one is.

 

[Chief Resident]

Your statement would be more valid if either of the original posters were DO students. Neither one is.

But those responding were, and some of them reaffirmed the OPs. Not to mention some DO's do try to 'hide' their degrees as mentioned in those threads (having Dr. ___ on their white coats so they can avoid writing the D.O. instead of having ___, D.O.)

 

[tkim]

But those responding were, and some of them reaffirmed the OPs. Not to mention some DO's do try to 'hide' their degrees as mentioned in those threads (writing Dr. ___ on their white coats instead of ___, D.O.)

The OP of one thread made the observation - who knows why this is - we can guess all day long. To my knowledge, not one other poster to either thread has 'torn their own profession apart' - as you say, or taken pains to obscure their degree. It's a little bit of hyperbole on your side - sort like a medical student naming themselves 'chief resident' - don't you think? 😉

 

[Chief Resident]

The OP of one thread made the observation - who knows why this is - we can guess all day long. To my knowledge, not one other poster to either thread has 'torn their own profession apart' - as you say, or taken pains to obscure their degree. It's a little bit of hyperbole on your side - sort like a medical student naming themselves 'chief resident' - don't you think? 😉

Well if DOs are just writing Dr. and leaving out the DO that should tell you they do not want their patients or co-workers to see their D.O. degree.

 

[tkim]

Well if DOs are just writing Dr. and leaving out the DO that should tell you they do not want their patients or co-workers to see their D.O. degree.

If that's what you want to believe is the reason, then godspeed.

 

[Chief Resident]

If that's what you want to believe is the reason, then godspeed.

Looks like you're burying your head in the sand because you don't have an explanation why they would do it.

 

[DrMom]

I've seen MDs who have Dr. so-and-so on their coats, too. Some people just like to keep it simple, others want to leave off their first name.

 

[tkim]

Looks like you're burying your head in the sand because you don't have an explanation why they would do it.

I have no explanation why they do it, because I don't know whether it's really done, and if it is, I have no clue why it would be done.

Again, if that's what you call 'burying my head in the sand', please enjoy.

 

[allendo]

If you check out the DO forum on SDN you'll find threads like:

Why do DO's hide their credentials from the public?
and
do you tell people you go to an "osteopathic" medical school?

They are virtually ripping on their own degree so it's no surprise that others give them a hard time.

Chief Resident your a ***! The only people who do this are the M.D. rejects that shouldn't be in our schools anyway. I'm proud to go to D.O. school and don't hide it. Get over it

 

[DrMom]

Closing. This has gone on long enough.