Do you feel looked down upon?

[txblackbird]

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I'm a student considering going into physical therapy, and I was wondering if you guys feel looked down upon by MDs, specifically if you work in a hospital. I've heard that doctors often see nurses as people that just weren't smart enough to go to medical school. Obviously, that's a really screwed up perspective, not to mention extremely rude, but do get that same feeling as a DPT?

Thanks!

 

[jblil]

If you go through life wondering what others think about you, you'll be pretty miserable.

 

[dizzy88]

In the acute setting, it was a very common occurrence. It wasn't enough to turn me away from the profession, but I have to say it was enough to turn me away from acute care. It wasn't so much that I felt "looked down upon," but rather the way I was treated. I was in an extremely reputable institution as well, so it was quite shocking.

 

[vcnfs]

In the acute setting, it was a very common occurrence. It wasn't enough to turn me away from the profession, but I have to say it was enough to turn me away from acute care. It wasn't so much that I felt "looked down upon," but rather the way I was treated. I was in an extremely reputable institution as well, so it was quite shocking.

Would you elaborate on how you were treated?

 

[wrennywren]

I'm doing a clinical right now. Inpatient acute at a hospital. Honestly? I feel that the nurses seem to treat the PT's as "lessers" than the MD's do.

 

[NewDPT31]

yeah honestly it's not the MDs that look down at us, it's usually the nurses. I think part of it is jealousy. We get paid more and a lot of the time they only see us do evals or walking in the halls. You usually get the look like, "I just got the patient settled and in bed, and now you are coming to get them up for therapy?" And this differs from Acute to SNF depending on the nurses(but im just speaking in generalities).

 

[Azimuthal]

yeah honestly it's not the MDs that look down at us, it's usually the nurses. I think part of it is jealousy. We get paid more and a lot of the time they only see us do evals or walking in the halls. You usually get the look like, "I just got the patient settled and in bed, and now you are coming to get them up for therapy?" And this differs from Acute to SNF depending on the nurses(but im just speaking in generalities).

I hear these things often concerning nurses. My cousins are PharmDs and they tell me that the nurses are the ones always throwing the attitude around. My friend's sister is in a nursing program and she told me that 1) she didn't realize the rigor of a PT program until she saw what I was studying and 2) explained to me how she 'dealt' with 'arrogant' med students and residences. I was taken back a bit on the attitude factor.

In the clinical setting, however, I have been lucky enough to have not experienced working with unpleasant nurses and docs. The nurses I have worked with were top notch and super friendly, but noticed a vast quality difference in day shift nurses compared to graveyard. I overheard a day shifter complain to another nurse about something a night shifter did, and how they like to keep the not-so-common sensical nurses at nights with decreased face time with senior staff and visitors (regardless of pay differentials). Keep in mind that that was only at one location. Also, unlike what many prospective healthcare students may perceive from the pre-Allopathic SDN forum, most that make it to MD/DO programs and graduate are pretty chill and down to earth people. The future is in collaborative healthcare teams, no matter one's opinion on status quo.

 

[Azimuthal]

I'm doing a clinical right now. Inpatient acute at a hospital. Honestly? I feel that the nurses seem to treat the PT's as "lessers" than the MD's do.

It's because they have no idea of the rigor and extensive education required of PT programs. That's because most nurses only interact with PTs in the inpatient setting, where they observe us walk patients, perform a couple of exams and an occasional debridement. They may see a little more in cardiopulm, cardiac, wound care, burns, etc., but not much. Most have no idea what we do on the outpatient side or the differential PT diagnoses (critical thinking) and problem solving aspect of our occupation.

 

[Myosin]

If you stop thinking of yourself as a "medical doctor" and realize what a pt actually is, another health care provider, you won't feel this way.

Nurses look down on everyone. That part shouldn't be a surprise. jk

To be completely honest, I only see this "X looks down on Y" stuff on the internet. I have never seen an actual case of one health care professional actually saying or doing anything that would make you think they "look down" on each other. Everyone is extremely polite and professional in all of the physical therapy settings that I have done observation hours under.

I would not use SDN as a measure of what different health care providers think of each other. People like to role play and joke around on forums and it is not indicative of how they behave in everyday life.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

If you stop thinking of yourself as a "medical doctor" and realize what a pt actually is, another health care provider, you won't feel this way.

Nurses look down on everyone. That part shouldn't be a surprise. jk

To be completely honest, I only see this "X looks down on Y" stuff on the internet. I have never seen an actual case of one health care professional actually saying or doing anything that would make you think they "look down" on each other. Everyone is extremely polite and professional in all of the physical therapy settings that I have done observation hours under.

I would not use SDN as a measure of what different health care providers think of each other. People like to role play and joke around on forums and it is not indicative of how they behave in everyday life.

A lot of what you're saying here is true. However, from the looks of it, you're not a PT and so you have no idea what a PT is, and will not until you actually graduate and get a few years under your belt. Keep in mind that a lot of what you see in the clinic is a facade, and a forum such as this is a way for people to actually express what they really think. I know of no PT in the clinic or on a forum who thinks of themselves as a MD.

 

[Neuronix]

MDs look down on PTs? I've never seen that. I love you guys.

There are jerks in every walk of life. Can't focus on them.

 

[dizzy88]

Would you elaborate on how you were treated?

Doctors were constantly walking in on my sessions (we did in room treatments) without asking my permission. Nursing often used the phrase "your walker" is here. Patient progress was rarely monitored. I would read MD notes that stated "patient participating in therapy and doing well." However, if anyone bothered to read my notes they would see the patient had been refusing therapy, taking max assist of two for any activity they agreed to do, etc. When attempting to contact the teams to inform them of patient status, my calls were never returned.

This kind of behavior didn't really scream respect for your fellow colleagues.

Of course, this is not how it was across the board. I had the pleasure of working with excellent nurses, MDs, PAs, etc. However, these individuals were rare in the acute care setting in comparison to my other experiences.

 

[goyo1010]

Had a physician come in to lecture one class of ours concerning spine surgery. Suffice to say, the phrase "you don't need to know that, you're only going to be PTs" was said more times that "the". Plus, he was a PT in the 80s, so I can't believe he's treat future PTs that way.

 

[jesspt]

👍

MDs look down on PTs? I've never seen that. I love you guys.

There are jerks in every walk of life. Can't focus on them.

 

[DesertPT]

Had a physician come in to lecture one class of ours concerning spine surgery. Suffice to say, the phrase "you don't need to know that, you're only going to be PTs" was said more times that "the". Plus, he was a PT in the 80s, so I can't believe he's treat future PTs that way.

Not to be rude, but if he was a surgeon than that arrogance is pretty typical of all the surgeons I've every visited (which is a fair few).

 

[goyo1010]

The other surgeons who came to lecture for the same class were much different. They were open to our suggestions on what type of material/topics they should focus on. And I know a lot of surgeons are typically arrogant, as I have had clinicals at different hospitals and observed numerous surgeries. The residents are usually really nice and receptive, but the ones further in displayed signs of superiority complexes. This is generalized to all surgeons though. I love physicians and surgeons and I have a deep respect for their knowledge and what they went through to get where they are.

honestly, I don't care whether or not they're arrogant. That one surgeon just rubbed me the wrong way being a former PT. They can act as arrogant as they want for all I care. I'll just give them my "Oh, really? Well, that's nice" look and go about my way treating my patients when I'm a PT.

 

[PhysioRep]

From my observations hours, I would conjecture that treatment of PTs is positive most of the time. I can only recall one incident where a PT and an RN were in disagreement about whether or not a patient needed therapy or not, because the patient appeared to have good strength and mobility. It was a passing disagreement, not a big deal, because it was ordered/approved by the physician anyway. My impression is that the RN simply did not understand the merits/benefits of therapy for a mobile patient (which is not an unreasonable misunderstanding given the differences in training). On that note, I had an ultrasound student ask me if I needed a "certificate or something" to work in physical therapy. So, I would agree that it seems health care personnel (and perhaps society in general) are unfamiliar with the education of a physical therapist and requirements for the field. That being said, however, I never witnessed arrogant treatment by physicians towards PTs and feel they are generally treated/regarded well.

 

[Junta87]

My question is more about why this would matter to you. If someone is arrogant enough to 'look down' on someone else's occupation, why would you care about what they think?

As far as nurses are concerned, I asked my dad (he is an ED nurse) and he said he and his fellow nurses like working with PTs at the hospital and says nurses do not 'look down' on PTs.

 

[DesertPT]

I had an ultrasound student ask me if I needed a "certificate or something" to work in physical therapy.

Well, my reaction is best described with a bit of internet-speak....I lol'd.

 

[NewDPT31]

It happens. MDs have a lot more responsibility and multiple patients at multiple locations(hospital, snf, etc). We have the luxury of spending a lot of 1on1 time with the patients.
As far as walking in, they are rounding. They are the gatekeepers to the patient's healthcare. Who cares if they interrupt for 2 mins. Take the time that they walk in to inform them of the patient's condition and progress. Don't stay quiet, stay casual. I've come to realize that my notes are usually not read much anyway, but I know I'm helping the patient...so I'm ok with that. Or let the nurses know so when the MD pops in she can give him a 5 second blurb on what you said. No big deal.

And you can't label most MDs as arrogant. People are people. You have your *******s and you have the good people....Now if you wanna start talking trash on CNAs, I wont stop you.

http://youtu.be/5kfNQG1vUI4

 

[somedical]

When I worked in a PT clinic, I definitely felt looked down upon and I know the therapists did too.

There were several instances where the therapist would fax the plan of care to the doctor..maybe the original script the MD wrote said 2 times a week, but the therapist wanted 3 times a week. The doctor would fax a note back saying "that's not my plan of care!" or "follow the guidelines in my original script!" or something to that nature.

Also, it just be aggravating to basically be a musculoskeletal expert... And have a doctor fax you a script with a patient that has the wrong diagnosis AND a protocol for that patient. And there is nothing you can do. I saw that happen SEVERAL times.

I was debating on pursuing pt vs medicine, and working in pt made me choose medicine..PTs get treated like under dogs.

I hated to see the therapists sucking up to the doctors for referrals and trying to please them... It sucks that the profession is so limited in that aspect. Yes there is direct access but after a certain time md approval is needed.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

When I worked in a PT clinic, I definitely felt looked down upon and I know the therapists did too.

There were several instances where the therapist would fax the plan of care to the doctor..maybe the original script the MD wrote said 2 times a week, but the therapist wanted 3 times a week. The doctor would fax a note back saying "that's not my plan of care!" or "follow the guidelines in my original script!" or something to that nature.

Also, it just be aggravating to basically be a musculoskeletal expert... And have a doctor fax you a script with a patient that has the wrong diagnosis AND a protocol for that patient. And there is nothing you can do. I saw that happen SEVERAL times.

I was debating on pursuing pt vs medicine, and working in pt made me choose medicine..PTs get treated like under dogs.

I hated to see the therapists sucking up to the doctors for referrals and trying to please them... It sucks that the profession is so limited in that aspect. Yes there is direct access but after a certain time md approval is needed.

This type of thing is all over the place. A recent study came out comparing the outcomes in cervical radiculopathy for those who underwent a fusion plus PT, vs PT alone. No difference in long term, both were beneficial. The interesting part is that the study cites that "structed physiotherapy" was utilized. That I would equate to "skilled physical therapy." What exactly is structured physiotherapy or skilled physical therapy? AND it says that the same PT POC was utilized whether post fusion or non surgical. That makes no sense at all. I think I watched a video as well with a neurosurgeon basically saying that her colleagues over utilize surgery and don't know when it's indicated. Then she went on to imply that the solution somehow is for the patient to see another physician. A neurologist, who might "recommend physical therapy." Not refer to a physical therapist. Is that grammar even correct? Shouldn't it be neurology may refer to physical therapy, OR a neurologist may refer to a physical therapist. Basically, no matter what, the patient needs to have a physician oversight even though there is no basis whatsoever, if one physician isn't getting the job done, then the solution is obviously to see another one.

One of the websites of a POPTS clinic in town here where I live talks about how the physical therapists have "direct access to the surgeons." Nice insult. Not only that but there's separate links to "find a physician/surgeon" and a separate little box to click to "include PA's/NP's in search results." Then the "physical therapy 'team'" tab has PT's and PTA's. Nice grammar once again. How stupid of me, I completely forgot that physical therapy is a generic term and it's a service.

Cervical radiculopathy (if that's what it really is)

The guidelines intervention wise say to do thoracic manipulation or mobs/exercise if inappropriate, cervical traction, deep cervical flexor strengthening, and neurodynamics. That's what I do as long as it is appropriate and the patient agrees. No exceptions, I could care less what some "script" says and I will never follow some bonehead baseless script or guidelines.

Bummer for the patient that they are stuck in the middle of this dictatorcare/prestigecare.

 

[DesertPT]

When I worked in a PT clinic, I definitely felt looked down upon and I know the therapists did too.

There were several instances where the therapist would fax the plan of care to the doctor..maybe the original script the MD wrote said 2 times a week, but the therapist wanted 3 times a week. The doctor would fax a note back saying "that's not my plan of care!" or "follow the guidelines in my original script!" or something to that nature.

Also, it just be aggravating to basically be a musculoskeletal expert... And have a doctor fax you a script with a patient that has the wrong diagnosis AND a protocol for that patient. And there is nothing you can do. I saw that happen SEVERAL times.

I was debating on pursuing pt vs medicine, and working in pt made me choose medicine..PTs get treated like under dogs.

I hated to see the therapists sucking up to the doctors for referrals and trying to please them... It sucks that the profession is so limited in that aspect. Yes there is direct access but after a certain time md approval is needed.

This is going to vary widely state by state, depending on laws restricting PT access that may or may not be in place. I am glad AZ is a direct access state...the PT I've been to told me that she makes money on the side visiting cash-pay patients on the weekend, and many PT's have similar gigs...but I don't think this is possible in all states.

 

[PTStudent215]

How often do those of you who are PT's get this type of treatment?

I really love PT, and want a career in it, but after all that hard work I do not want to be looked at as "lower" than someone else.

 

[DesertPT]

How often do those of you who are PT's get this type of treatment?

I really love PT, and want a career in it, but after all that hard work I do not want to be looked at as "lower" than someone else.

I seriously wouldn't worry about it. There aren't many PT's out there who don't like their jobs...

Every career has pros and cons. No matter what field you think about going into, it is always possible to get yourself worked up over one particular drawback or another...don't let that dissuade you from doing something you want to do, unless it's really major. For example, I thought for a while I would go into pharmacy, but realized that the strong possibility of having to work nights, weekends and/or holidays was too big of a drawback for me to overcome. There are drawbacks to PT too, but none of them have seemed big enough to dissuade me.