MD Do you have to be married to your career to be a good surgeon?

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canmed96

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Hi there. Just wrapped up first year. Interested in Ortho. I've discovered to me, medicine is a job. It is not a passion i wake up excited for or have a burning desire for. It's a job i'd rather do than any other but my happiness is derived from going to the gym, hanging out with family and friends etc.

My question is can i be a good surgeon and still have these few hobbies? I see so many people living and breathing medicine or at least pretending to. Immersed in research, reading papers in their free time etc. I know that will never be me but i really like ortho more than any other specialty.

Thoughts?

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Maybe start doing some ortho reserach, but if this is your attitude you'll probably get a reality check when you're rotating on surgery. Then you can semi-realistically appraise whether or not surgery is for you.

I actually picked surgery as my first rotation because I thought I would hate it, and thought I wanted something lifestyle friendly. Turns out I love the OR and surgery, so now I'm trying to weigh the same question.
 
Regardless of how much time and energy you want to devote to your practice when you're done with your training, you won't have a choice but to be married to your specialty during residency. Also, your reputation and skills will be important in this field so consider the dedication necessary to be an excellent surgeon in order to build a referral base.

I'd imagine the answer to your question is "eventually yes" but you have to finish training, establish yourself, and be good at what you do before you can take your foot off the gas a bit. But what do I know, I'm just a third year 😛
 
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Orthopedic surgeons do work quite a bit on average. It is definitely not a lifestyle specialty, but given how much of a money maker it is, you could probably work part time after gaining financial independence by working hard for several years and still live a great lifestyle. The trick would be finding a good part time gig you enjoy after becoming independent.
 
Hi there. Just wrapped up first year. Interested in Ortho. I've discovered to me, medicine is a job. It is not a passion i wake up excited for or have a burning desire for. It's a job i'd rather do than any other but my happiness is derived from going to the gym, hanging out with family and friends etc.

My question is can i be a good surgeon and still have these few hobbies? I see so many people living and breathing medicine or at least pretending to. Immersed in research, reading papers in their free time etc. I know that will never be me but i really like ortho more than any other specialty.

Thoughts?
Would you want a surgeon for yourself who says surgery is not a passion its just a job?
If a musician said playing music is just a job, its not my passion? do you think they would be worth a darm?
You think Miles Davis, or JOhn coltrane said that about their music?
Ill give you a hint: Coltrane slept with his saxophone. and was caught playing the fingers in the air in his sleep.

DOes that answer your question?
 
Would you want a surgeon for yourself who says surgery is not a passion its just a job?
If a musician said playing music is just a job, its not my passion? do you think they would be worth a darm?
You think Miles Davis, or JOhn coltrane said that about their music?
Ill give you a hint: Coltrane slept with his saxophone. and was caught playing the fingers in the air in his sleep.

DOes that answer your question?

I'm sorry, but you must be very naive to assume that those within their niches do what they do out of sheer passion. You think people like Justin Bieber with 300m+ net worth, Nicholas Cage who takes whatever role in whatever ****ty movie to gain back his 100m+ in savings after having bought 10+ mansions in the nation and hence mitigate his bankrupcty do it out of passion? The overwhelming majority do it because of $$$. Otherwise you wouldn't have these idiot actors for Game of Thrones have temper tantrums because their drug addict friends were making 1 000 000 $/each EPISODE and decided to make sure their "little pay" of 500 000 $/episode rised to match with their peers. Most do it for the money.

Also, surgeons don't make alot of money. Not until they make 30 million USD/year for a 40 hour work week. That would RELATIVELY speaking be good pay. Until then, all physicians are underpaid.
 
I'm sorry, but you must be very naive to assume that those within their niches do what they do out of sheer passion. You think people like Justin Bieber with 300m+ net worth, Nicholas Cage who takes whatever role in whatever ****ty movie to gain back his 100m+ in savings after having bought 10+ mansions in the nation and hence mitigate his bankrupcty do it out of passion? The overwhelming majority do it because of $$$. Otherwise you wouldn't have these idiot actors for Game of Thrones have temper tantrums because their drug addict friends were making 1 000 000 $/each EPISODE and decided to make sure their "little pay" of 500 000 $/episode rised to match with their peers. Most do it for the money.

Also, surgeons don't make alot of money. Not until they make 30 million USD/year for a 40 hour work week. That would RELATIVELY speaking be good pay. Until then, all physicians are underpaid.

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Would you want a surgeon for yourself who says surgery is not a passion its just a job?
If a musician said playing music is just a job, its not my passion? do you think they would be worth a darm?
You think Miles Davis, or JOhn coltrane said that about their music?
Ill give you a hint: Coltrane slept with his saxophone. and was caught playing the fingers in the air in his sleep.

DOes that answer your question?

As long as a surgeon is competent at their job then that’s fine with me.

My partner is a musician and that’s just who he was born to be. Luckily he makes good money doing it, but even if he didn’t make a penny he’d still be a musician. He often falls asleep "air playing” instruments.

I personally wasn’t born a doctor. If I won the lottery I’d quit clinical medicine in a heart beat. Being a doctor isn’t the core of who I am. I’m still a great doctor and I don’t fault anyone who doesn’t make their job their entire encense of their being.
 
Here comes the honesty train, bro.

If medicine is just a job and not a passion, why on earth are you even considering something surgery related? Pull your head out of that pipe dream and figure out a better fit for yourself.

Every surgeon I’ve ever talked to has clearly stated to steer clear of surgery unless you could not be happy doing something else. I’d talk to some surgeons yourself and get the advice straight from the horses’ mouth.
 
Would you want a surgeon for yourself who says surgery is not a passion its just a job?

Surgery can be your passion and still he just a job... you absolutely don’t have to completely give up all other aspects of your life to be a good surgeon. This thought process is absurd.

OP once you get out of training then yeah you can have control over how “married” you are to surgery. Until then though surgery will be your wife and your wife will be your mistress.
 
I am a surgical intern. Take what I have to say with a grain of salt given that my response is likely imbued with naivety and inexperience.

I applied to medical school wanting to be a surgeon. I went through medical school wanting to be a surgeon. I am at the point in my career where by rights I could probably refer to myself as a surgeon and have that be technically correct. However I am not a surgeon. Not yet.

In the mere few weeks I've been a resident, several things have been impressed upon me about the fundamental tenets of building a surgeon. Surgery and all of its subspecialties are fields where you are expected to be able to do everything perfectly* every time. If you cannot, people will get hurt or may even die, and both of these things can happen quickly. Don't have the ability to do that C-section? Patient dies. Can't get that EVD in properly? Patient dies. Can't find and control the bleeding large vessel? Patient dies. These are things you will be expected to do by yourself at the end of your training. The buck stops with you.

Becoming a surgeon is about developing judgment and skill through experience. Knowledge is obviously requisite and informs decision making, but experience is really what builds your ability to perform and mature. But you don't get that experience without putting in the work. And putting in the work means giving your best effort. I attempted a relatively simple bedside procedure today and was unable to complete it to satisfaction. The situation was more difficult than others I had faced and I did not have the experience to navigate these particular circumstances. That is okay because I am an intern and I have my seniors backing me up. But eventually I'll be at the point where I am the backup, and if I am not able to do it, then there isn't anyone else. That level of skill and responsibility is the intended end result of this work and the experience that comes with it. I will attempt and execute this procedure many more times over the course of my residency because when I leave, I need to be able to do it as close to perfectly as possible every time.

And it's not all about procedures. Perhaps more important than technical skills are judgment and the ability to adapt to new or evolving situations. Learning how to navigate these again requires experience. Lots and lots of experience to the point where you have the tools necessary to handle any situation within your scope of practice. Handle does not necessarily mean definitively solve. It just means handle.

My life as a surgical trainee is actually pretty good right now. I work 6 days a week, I haven't broken 90 hours/week yet, and I usually have an hour or two at the end of my day to myself to do whatever I want. Other than eating, I can use that time to read, go to the gym, talk to friends and family, watch TV, or pursue another hobby (apparently right now it means posting on SDN). My primary focus right now and for the next X years is learning to be a good resident so that one day I can refer to myself as a surgeon without feeling abashed or unsure because I will have the experience to handle the responsibility that such a descriptor implies. That does not mean I don't have time for other things, it just means when I need to make choices and prioritize, I unquestionably prioritize my training above everything else because to do anything else would be irresponsible to myself, to my team, and most importantly to my patients.

So to summarize, surgery requires judgment and skill acquired through experience gleaned through hard work and appropriate prioritization. You can describe that however you wish, but if you want to be able to call yourself a surgeon, that is what is required of you.
 
I’m an orthopaedic surgeon.

It’s possible to have hobbies, but they must be carefully curated, along with family time and work. You won’t be able to have time for everything you want to do— you must prioritize and choose a few “most important” things and eliminate the rest as distractions.

But surgery is a tough road if it’s “just a job.” Much better to do something that doesn’t murder you on a regular basis.
 
I'm sorry, but you must be very naive to assume that those within their niches do what they do out of sheer passion. You think people like Justin Bieber with 300m+ net worth, Nicholas Cage who takes whatever role in whatever ****ty movie to gain back his 100m+ in savings after having bought 10+ mansions in the nation and hence mitigate his bankrupcty do it out of passion? The overwhelming majority do it because of $$$. Otherwise you wouldn't have these idiot actors for Game of Thrones have temper tantrums because their drug addict friends were making 1 000 000 $/each EPISODE and decided to make sure their "little pay" of 500 000 $/episode rised to match with their peers. Most do it for the money.

Also, surgeons don't make alot of money. Not until they make 30 million USD/year for a 40 hour work week. That would RELATIVELY speaking be good pay. Until then, all physicians are underpaid.
If you just cut off that last comment, I would totally agree with you. Sorry, over 150k a year is 'good pay' in 95% of the populations mind. I like your 30 million, but thats beyond good pay.
 
You have a fair number of attendings who have responded so far and overwhelmingly they are telling you a career in surgery requires passion for surgery.

I'm a plastic surgery resident currently on a very light non-surgical rotation and I miss the OR. When I have free time I go hang out and scrub cases in the OR. Every single one of my co-residents has done the same thing because that's what we think is a good time. In surgery, you either drank the Kool-aid or you're miserable doing this "job".

You've only completed one year medical school so far and haven't started rotations yet. If you still feel lukewarm about everything but kinda like ortho the best after third year is finished, come back and ask again then. You really can't decide specialty until after doing rotations.
 
You have a fair number of attendings who have responded so far and overwhelmingly they are telling you a career in surgery requires passion for surgery.

I'm a plastic surgery resident currently on a very light non-surgical rotation and I miss the OR. When I have free time I go hang out and scrub cases in the OR. Every single one of my co-residents has done the same thing because that's what we think is a good time. In surgery, you either drank the Kool-aid or you're miserable doing this "job".

You've only completed one year medical school so far and haven't started rotations yet. If you still feel lukewarm about everything but kinda like ortho the best after third year is finished, come back and ask again then. You really can't decide specialty until after doing rotations.

How did M3 surgery rotation go for you? How did you feel about the other rotations? Did you know right away you were going to do surgery?
 
How did M3 surgery rotation go for you? How did you feel about the other rotations? Did you know right away you were going to do surgery?
I had actually been planning on a general surgery specialty based on my previous job experience and the research I was doing in med school. When I started M3 on IM, it was the only time I thought I had made a mistake going to med school. I didn't hate it but I didn't really like it. I did surgery next and the days felt shorter and I was a lot happier. I was excited to go to the hospital at 5am, and I'm not a morning person. I also felt like I'd found "my people". Rotated on the gen surg specialty I was planning to go into and on plastic surgery and ended up falling in love with plastics instead, though I liked gen surg too.

I really wanted to like EM or derm because they're short residencies with good pay/hours ratio, but I hated both. I liked OB/gyn, was surprised to like peds, found neurology to be OK, disliked FM and psychiatry.

My choice was very easy, though I recognize it isn't that way for everyone.
 
I’m finishing a surgical residency this year and will add my thoughts to the many excellent points above:

1) can you be a good surgeon and have those other hobbies? Probably. I know plenty of workaholic surgeons who are mediocre and plenty who are great. Same goes for the more lifestyle aware surgeons- skills that run the gamut. There is so much variability in how people learn that this is hard to answer.

2) your lifestyle as a surgeon is directly related to your skill. If you are slow and it takes you 12 hours to do a case that takes someone else 6 hours, you’re going to have a crap lifestyle and they will be home early having dinner with the family and enjoying hobbies. It’s just that simple. If the 6 hour surgeon boards 2-3 cases a day then their lifestyle sucks too but they at least have some choice.

3) you learn for your whole career but residency is the most intense time of training where you can operate every single day doing great cases (at least toward the end). Your poor attendings are slogging away in clinic 2-3 days a week to book those cases while you get to mooch off their hard work and reputation. As such this is the best time to learn your craft. If you half ass it, you may set yourself back; see #2 above re skills and lifestyle. Most trainees view residency as a time to err more on the work side in order to have a great lifestyle later.

4) practice setup and choice of field are also huge determinants of lifestyle. Some of my staff are essentially on call 24/7 for their patients because they practice some very esoteric subspecialty field and only a few of their partners are willing/able to handle complications. Others take almost no call at all. I’m sure ortho has its own practice areas that are similar.

5) surgery is terribly unpredictable. I’ve had many times I’ve had to call in staff not on call because something emergent came in. Some days can run long. It’s much harder to predict with certainty your schedule. Even if you are just seeing a clinic day, it just takes a new patient with a surgical emergency or some other train wreck to keep you at work until after dinner. For some reason these patients tend to come on Friday afternoons. If your family and hobbies are flexible then this works fine; if not, you can run into trouble.

6) everything has a trade off. If you want no pager and no call, then trauma may work if your setup is more shift based and you just hand off the pager to the next attending. But then you’re stuck doing trauma. Some people like it; others don’t. You want to do hand work then you may have additional call responsibilities and even off call work if you’re the only surgeon at your shop who does those cases. But you get to do hand which pays well and is really cool (disclosure: if i did ortho, I would have wanted to do hand).

Something they told me when I worked in the arts also applies to surgery: if you can see yourself being happy doing something else, you would be wise to do that instead. Literally every field is more lifestyle friendly than surgery. The worst pediatrics lifestyle is still better than the best surgical lifestyle.
 
I’m finishing a surgical residency this year and will add my thoughts to the many excellent points above:

1) can you be a good surgeon and have those other hobbies? Probably. I know plenty of workaholic surgeons who are mediocre and plenty who are great. Same goes for the more lifestyle aware surgeons- skills that run the gamut. There is so much variability in how people learn that this is hard to answer.

2) your lifestyle as a surgeon is directly related to your skill. If you are slow and it takes you 12 hours to do a case that takes someone else 6 hours, you’re going to have a crap lifestyle and they will be home early having dinner with the family and enjoying hobbies. It’s just that simple. If the 6 hour surgeon boards 2-3 cases a day then their lifestyle sucks too but they at least have some choice.

3) you learn for your whole career but residency is the most intense time of training where you can operate every single day doing great cases (at least toward the end). Your poor attendings are slogging away in clinic 2-3 days a week to book those cases while you get to mooch off their hard work and reputation. As such this is the best time to learn your craft. If you half ass it, you may set yourself back; see #2 above re skills and lifestyle. Most trainees view residency as a time to err more on the work side in order to have a great lifestyle later.

4) practice setup and choice of field are also huge determinants of lifestyle. Some of my staff are essentially on call 24/7 for their patients because they practice some very esoteric subspecialty field and only a few of their partners are willing/able to handle complications. Others take almost no call at all. I’m sure ortho has its own practice areas that are similar.

5) surgery is terribly unpredictable. I’ve had many times I’ve had to call in staff not on call because something emergent came in. Some days can run long. It’s much harder to predict with certainty your schedule. Even if you are just seeing a clinic day, it just takes a new patient with a surgical emergency or some other train wreck to keep you at work until after dinner. For some reason these patients tend to come on Friday afternoons. If your family and hobbies are flexible then this works fine; if not, you can run into trouble.

6) everything has a trade off. If you want no pager and no call, then trauma may work if your setup is more shift based and you just hand off the pager to the next attending. But then you’re stuck doing trauma. Some people like it; others don’t. You want to do hand work then you may have additional call responsibilities and even off call work if you’re the only surgeon at your shop who does those cases. But you get to do hand which pays well and is really cool (disclosure: if i did ortho, I would have wanted to do hand).

Something they told me when I worked in the arts also applies to surgery: if you can see yourself being happy doing something else, you would be wise to do that instead. Literally every field is more lifestyle friendly than surgery. The worst pediatrics lifestyle is still better than the best surgical lifestyle.

Agree with all except number 2. Skill doesn’t have a lot to do with lifestyle once you get past a certain experience. I’m a trauma surgeon. Trauma lifestyle sucks no matter how fast you are. It also depends on the hospital and practice structure— when you have 2 rooms running plus a bunch of residents doing the simple surgeries and closures for you, you can chill out in the lounge and your lifestyle is better, compared to those of us slogging away in one room with PAs.
 
One thing to remember: med school sucks. It can be humiliating. Residency is much better but sucks too.

I kind of hated working in medicine unless I had autonomy. Yeah I liked the disease process etc but I hated having to present to the attending and get pimped and the whole thing about not being the “real” doctor, etc. So the fun part of residency was when I was a third and fourth year and got good at what I was doing. Now that I’m a private practitioner I’m really good at it and I enjoy it. I’m betting that if you become an orthopedic surgeon, you’ll get good at it and enjoy it a lot more. It might even become your passion.

And yes. When you get out in the real world there will be time for working out and spending time with friends. You don’t just have to be a surgery robot.
 
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