Do you think using nootropics is unethical?

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Do you think using nootropics is unethical?

  • Yes, any form is unethical.

    Votes: 16 19.5%
  • Somewhat, only rx drugs used illegally is unethical.

    Votes: 31 37.8%
  • No, use whatever gives you an edge.

    Votes: 18 22.0%
  • It's impossible to say, where do you draw the line?

    Votes: 17 20.7%

  • Total voters
    82

BrachialPLXS

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I was having a discussion with some fellow classmates about the use of different nootropics, such as racetams, amphetamines, etc. There are varying opinions about this topic. What do you think about using them in medical school to help with cognition?
 
I was having a discussion with some fellow classmates about the use of different nootropics, such as racetams, amphetamines, etc. There are varying opinions about this topic. What do you think about using them in medical school to help with cognition?

I don't really think they make your smarter or change your cognition. You can't feed adderall to an idiot and expect them to become smart.

Obviously they increase you attention span, but I don't really like the term nootropic, becuase many people think you mean "smart pill."
 
I was having a discussion with some fellow classmates about the use of different nootropics, such as racetams, amphetamines, etc. There are varying opinions about this topic. What do you think about using them in medical school to help with cognition?

Yep. Better kick out all the kids with ADD.

Why stop there, there's always forced sterilization, that's still legal in the USA.
 
Yep. Better kick out all the kids with ADD.

Why stop there, there's always forced sterilization, that's still legal in the USA.

I'm guessing the OP was probably referring to the use of nootropics for a completely healthy person, not those students diagnosed with ADHD that require Adderall or similar types of prescriptions.

In my opinion, the line is nearly impossible to draw. Is it unethical for a student to drink a cup of coffee or Red Bull while they are studying or before an exam? Is it unethical for a student to exercise every single day while maintaining a healthy diet rich in Omega-3s? Both of these things should help cognition.

If a student wants to buy a racetam, while they are not available at your local drugstore, they are readily available online and are completely legal. An earlier post questioned whether they work. Even if they provide a placebo effect, doesn't that still help the student? As for Adderall, Ritalin, Vyvanse, Dexedrine, etc, they require a prescription and otherwise must be purchased illegally. The student assumes great risk in that regard.
 
I had an interesting talk with a genetics professor about this a few years ago. To sum up his argument, if increasing intelligence was as easy as dumping a chemical (in this case a nootropic, like a -racetam), nature would have already found the solution throughout the course of evolution. According to him, it is unlikely that supplementing with nootropics won't have deleterious consequences in the long term.

Obviously, I know just as well as you that the LD50 for supplements like piracetam is quite high; even unattainable, in some studies. I also believe that empirical studies with piracetam have shown a significant effect on mental acuity in the short term, with regard to a few categories. Nonetheless, I think there is some merit to this professor's argument, as the long term effects have not been well categorized at this time. This may or may not be a matter of grave importance.

In our case, most of us on this board are doctors in training, who will soon be MD's in 1-4 years. If you ask me for my opinion on the ethics of this population taking nootropics, I will have to say I consider it completely unethical. What if 15-20 years down the line, our brain physiology becomes dependent in some way on a nootropic that has been taken for years, and increasing the dosage only works for some time. At this point, the drug may stop working entirely, or the side effects may be too much to handle as a practicing physician. What now? You cannot go out and buy a new brain, and all those resources used to train you will go to waste. Additionally, think about the patients that could be needlessly harmed.

At the same time, I am in favor of an extremely limited selection of performance enhancers like caffeine. The reasoning here is that we have MUCH more experience with this drug, especially with regards to the long term effects. So to sum up my argument, I am morally and ethically against most performance enhancers, with the exception of well-characterized ones like caffeine.
 
I had an interesting talk with a genetics professor about this a few years ago. To sum up his argument, if increasing intelligence was as easy as dumping a chemical (in this case a nootropic, like a -racetam), nature would have already found the solution throughout the course of evolution. According to him, it is unlikely that supplementing with nootropics won't have deleterious consequences in the long term.

Obviously, I know just as well as you that the LD50 for supplements like piracetam is quite high; even unattainable, in some studies. I also believe that empirical studies with piracetam have shown a significant effect on mental acuity in the short term, with regard to a few categories. Nonetheless, I think there is some merit to this professor's argument, as the long term effects have not been well categorized at this time. This may or may not be a matter of grave importance.

In our case, most of us on this board are doctors in training, who will soon be MD's in 1-4 years. If you ask me for my opinion on the ethics of this population taking nootropics, I will have to say I consider it completely unethical. What if 15-20 years down the line, our brain physiology becomes dependent in some way on a nootropic that has been taken for years, and increasing the dosage only works for some time. At this point, the drug may stop working entirely, or the side effects may be too much to handle as a practicing physician. What now? You cannot go out and buy a new brain, and all those resources used to train you will go to waste. Additionally, think about the patients that could be needlessly harmed.

At the same time, I am in favor of an extremely limited selection of performance enhancers like caffeine. The reasoning here is that we have MUCH more experience with this drug, especially with regards to the long term effects. So to sum up my argument, I am morally and ethically against most performance enhancers, with the exception of well-characterized ones like caffeine.

I don't buy that...intelligence isn't correlated strongly with survival of the fittest.

Cockroach's are very fit by evolutional standards yet are dumb as rocks.


In our society the most evolutionarily fit people are often the crackheads on welfare who have a half of dozen kids. Most well educated people only have 1-2 offspring...yet are less "evolutionary fit" therefore we should evolve away from that trait.
 
Just like most other things in life, it's only wrong if you get caught.
 
I don't buy that...intelligence isn't correlated strongly with survival of the fittest.

Cockroach's are very fit by evolutional standards yet are dumb as rocks.


In our society the most evolutionarily fit people are often the crackheads on welfare who have a half of dozen kids. Most well educated people only have 1-2 offspring...yet are less "evolutionary fit" therefore we should evolve away from that trait.

👍 Human devolution or a plunge into idiocracy. Let's see how far dysgenics takes us 👍
 
if you are viewing the situation from a standpoitn of utilitarian ethics, then of course.
--nootropics enhance performance .. better performing doctors treat patients more effectively. (unless you are talking about 'cognitive constriction', a phenomenon associated in research studies with some psychotropics/stimulants, in which case you could argue that lack of creativity could inherantly hurt a doctor's practice)

if you are talking about the ethics of whether or not a human should attempt to interfere with natural consciousness in the broadest sense ie the mormon perspective, in which case I would argue that this discussion is not relevant to pre-allo.


Of course the argument is not really one to bring out to debate in practice.. most healthcare workers I know would ignore/scorn anyone suggesting their coffee drinking habits were unethical.


Caffeine shows the most proven benefit and has the most data , and is the most widely used of all nootropics.

http://8pmwarrior.com/2010/10/medical-professionals-top-the-list-of-%E2%80%9Cleast-productive-without-coffee%E2%80%9D/

any thoughts? 😀
 
I've thought about this myself. Would it be unethical to give physicians, who are going on 12+ hours of work a stimulant such as adderall to prevent weariness and a decrease in mental function?
 
if you are viewing the situation from a standpoitn of utilitarian ethics, then of course.
--nootropics enhance performance .. better performing doctors treat patients more effectively. (unless you are talking about 'cognitive constriction', a phenomenon associated in research studies with some psychotropics/stimulants, in which case you could argue that lack of creativity could inherantly hurt a doctor's practice)

any thoughts? 😀

Still, from a strictly utilitarian perspective, if a short-term (week, month, 5-10 year?) positive effect on competence is followed by an eventual deficit in competence(in perhaps 5, 10, or 20 years), it is an unsound argument. That being said, I think it is possible to quantify the uncertainty and include that as a factor in the determination of ethical behavior.

When you start talking about the implementation of regulatory practices around nootropics, you have to figure if this is the right action for all physicians. As a society, would we want all of our doctors on nootropics for a possible gain in performance, at the (small) risk of long-term problems? Considering the lack of long-term cohort studies, would an arbitrary 5% chance of severe long-term problems be acceptable, or how about 1% or .1%?
 
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I've thought about this myself. Would it be unethical to give physicians, who are going on 12+ hours of work a stimulant such as adderall to prevent weariness and a decrease in mental function?

The US Government already gives fighter pilots prescription amphetamines to avoid disasters (they call them 'go pills'). They're taken at the pilots' discretion, too. Although their use is monitored by physicians. I'd be for it. Caffeine doesn't do crap for someone who has been up 24+ hours.
 
I've thought about this myself. Would it be unethical to give physicians, who are going on 12+ hours of work a stimulant such as adderall to prevent weariness and a decrease in mental function?

From what I hear, that's how they did it back in the day 🙂

My take on it is my take on all drugs. If it impairs performance, don't do it so that it impairs work and if asked, don't lie about it. Otherwise everyone should be free to decide what does or doesn't go into their body. Anyone who says otherwise on the latter point is asserting their sovereignty over my body.
 
If only Bradley Cooper would show up with some of that NZT stuff haha.

But seriously, if you or a loved one were being treated, I think I would prefer for the doc to be at his most alert and highest functioning level (naturally or artificially). I've never taken anything, so I can't say what, adderall for instance, does for people that don't technically need it. I'd imagine tired doctor + adderall > tired doc though.
 
If only Bradley Cooper would show up with some of that NZT stuff haha.

But seriously, if you or a loved one were being treated, I think I would prefer for the doc to be at his most alert and highest functioning level (naturally or artificially). I've never taken anything, so I can't say what, adderall for instance, does for people that don't technically need it. I'd imagine tired doctor + adderall > tired doc though.

👍
 
I had an interesting talk with a genetics professor about this a few years ago. To sum up his argument, if increasing intelligence was as easy as dumping a chemical (in this case a nootropic, like a -racetam), nature would have already found the solution throughout the course of evolution. According to him, it is unlikely that supplementing with nootropics won't have deleterious consequences in the long term.

Obviously, I know just as well as you that the LD50 for supplements like piracetam is quite high; even unattainable, in some studies. I also believe that empirical studies with piracetam have shown a significant effect on mental acuity in the short term, with regard to a few categories. Nonetheless, I think there is some merit to this professor's argument, as the long term effects have not been well categorized at this time. This may or may not be a matter of grave importance.

In our case, most of us on this board are doctors in training, who will soon be MD's in 1-4 years. If you ask me for my opinion on the ethics of this population taking nootropics, I will have to say I consider it completely unethical. What if 15-20 years down the line, our brain physiology becomes dependent in some way on a nootropic that has been taken for years, and increasing the dosage only works for some time. At this point, the drug may stop working entirely, or the side effects may be too much to handle as a practicing physician. What now? You cannot go out and buy a new brain, and all those resources used to train you will go to waste. Additionally, think about the patients that could be needlessly harmed.

At the same time, I am in favor of an extremely limited selection of performance enhancers like caffeine. The reasoning here is that we have MUCH more experience with this drug, especially with regards to the long term effects. So to sum up my argument, I am morally and ethically against most performance enhancers, with the exception of well-characterized ones like caffeine.

I think that seems to really oversimplify evolution, and I'm surprised it came from a geneticist because they should understand some of the complexities. I guess he would think that dumping a chemical into your body to fight off infections, heart disease, diabetes, or any other reason we take medications would also be ineffective/counter-productive since evolution would have naturally done so if it was beneficial. It also seems to ignore the fact that a lot of evolution is based off of the available food we dump into our bodies every day.
 
I think that seems to really oversimplify evolution, and I'm surprised it came from a geneticist because they should understand some of the complexities. I guess he would think that dumping a chemical into your body to fight off infections, heart disease, diabetes, or any other reason we take medications would also be ineffective/counter-productive since evolution would have naturally done so if it was beneficial. It also seems to ignore the fact that a lot of evolution is based off of the available food we dump into our bodies every day.

You missed the point, and made a straw-man argument instead.
 
You missed the point, and made a straw-man argument instead.

I didn't mean to insult you or your genetics professor, and I sometimes misinterpret things. Could you please explain your point another way then? It sounded like you were saying there is no long term benefits to chemicals because evolution would have already made the improvement if there was one to be had. That's why I made the analogy to other chemical medications humans commonly use.
 
You missed the point, and made a straw-man argument instead.

I disagree. At least to your professors point. It isn't a straw man to identify flimsy logic behind a point. A straw man is to misrepresent the point all together.

Evolution doesn't necessarily share all of the same opinions as we do in terms of what is "good". We can't just assume that because nature didn't give it to us on a silver platter that it will necessarily come with negative consequence. From an evolutionary standpoint, mortality is a very good thing. Think Sockeye Salmon


Also your speculation on long term effects sound like a great science fiction movie but not much more.
 
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wow 45% of you guys think its unethical only bc its illegal?

thats a shame
 
Do you guys count cocaine a nootropic? definitely keeps you up studying
🙄
 
Do people seriously equate legality and ethics?

i know! thats what i was saying. like sure its fine if you are against the use for almost any other reason, but simply saying its illegal so its bad... you would think most people would be more logical

unless they are trying to say that because it is illegal... it creates a disparity of use because not everyone is willing to risk legal repercussions to have access to stimulants. this disparity is what makes it unethical, and this disparity is a direct result of it being illegal
 
wow 45% of you guys think its unethical only bc its illegal?

thats a shame

The "survey" isn't worded well. There should be a category saying that using "nootropics" is ethical for medical conditions. What medical professional could credibly argue that people with ADHD should not seek pharmacological treatment under the direction of a psychiatrist for their medical condition. The only legitimate choice available that allows for this is the "as long as it isn't illegal" one.
 
The "survey" isn't worded well. There should be a category saying that using "nootropics" is ethical for medical conditions. What medical professional could credibly argue that people with ADHD should not seek pharmacological treatment under the direction of a psychiatrist for their medical condition. The only legitimate choice available that allows for this is the "as long as it isn't illegal" one.

i don't think anyone is arguing that stimulants shouldn't be used if you have a medical condition.

im pretty sure the survey is only regarding those without a medical condition

edit: maybe that i shouldn't have assumed that though. i believed it should be assumed because i completely agree with your second statement.
 
unless they are trying to say that because it is illegal... it creates a disparity of use because not everyone is willing to risk legal repercussions to have access to stimulants. this disparity is what makes it unethical, and this disparity is a direct result of it being illegal

That is part of the reason I chose this option. In addition, it is just the way the answer choice is worded. "Illegal" "nootropic" drugs are merely a description of the drugs we are discussing.
 
LOL @ this thread and some of the people here. Claiming the use of legal/unscheduled nootropics by medical students/physicians is unethical is like saying the use of creatine by professional athletes is unethical. Truth is, a large proportion of medical students and the vast majority of professional athletes use PEDs that are scheduled/illegal. Perhaps our laws should address exactly which neurotransmitters are OK to tinker with and to what degree.

You can sit and argue ethics/legality all that you want. When it comes down to it, you're shunning the future of medicine/pharmacology when you blindly reject new chemical compounds and/or theories regarding the enhancement of normal physiological functioning. Medicine NEEDS people willing to embrace these ideals and strive for them. Regenerative medicine, life extension, nootropics... There will always be plenty of researchers working on existing diseases, but when will we start advancing treatments to address/enhance physiological functioning? The general practicing medical community has a history of being against this kind of thinking and it's ridiculous. The rhetoric about PEDs has been passed down through generations of physicians and it needs to end.
 
I don't use them but I also don't drink coffee while literally everyone else does. Caffeine makes you less tired and improves your concentration too. The one time I drank coffee in clinic I was like "wtf everyone has a huge advantage over me drinking this everyday." Energy drinks also do the same thing.

If you want to say taking adderall to study or work is unethical, so is any stimulant, including coffee and energy drinks. In fact, coffee and energy drinks work better than adderall bc they give you a burst of energy too. Adderall keeps you awake and improves concentration but lacks that energy boost IMO.
 
I don't use them but I also don't drink coffee while literally everyone else does. Caffeine makes you less tired and improves your concentration too. The one time I drank coffee in clinic I was like "wtf everyone has a huge advantage over me drinking this everyday." Energy drinks also do the same thing.

If you want to say taking adderall to study or work is unethical, so is any stimulant, including coffee and energy drinks. In fact, coffee and energy drinks work better than adderall bc they give you a burst of energy too. Adderall keeps you awake and improves concentration but lacks that energy boost IMO.

Pretty sure most studies showed caffeine, while making you more awake, had no longterm benefits. Haven't looked at em in years.
 
I think you make an excellent point.

However, I don't know about coffee being more effective than adderall... that might be a big strong... but otherwise, damn good point.

I don't use them but I also don't drink coffee while literally everyone else does. Caffeine makes you less tired and improves your concentration too. The one time I drank coffee in clinic I was like "wtf everyone has a huge advantage over me drinking this everyday." Energy drinks also do the same thing.

If you want to say taking adderall to study or work is unethical, so is any stimulant, including coffee and energy drinks. In fact, coffee and energy drinks work better than adderall bc they give you a burst of energy too. Adderall keeps you awake and improves concentration but lacks that energy boost IMO.
 
I don't use them but I also don't drink coffee while literally everyone else does. Caffeine makes you less tired and improves your concentration too. The one time I drank coffee in clinic I was like "wtf everyone has a huge advantage over me drinking this everyday." Energy drinks also do the same thing.

If you want to say taking adderall to study or work is unethical, so is any stimulant, including coffee and energy drinks. In fact, coffee and energy drinks work better than adderall bc they give you a burst of energy too. Adderall keeps you awake and improves concentration but lacks that energy boost IMO.

?

What the literature says about amphetamines-family drugs and their typical effects contradicts this

But always interesting how psychoactive substances can reportedly affect people differently.
 
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