Do you write for ambien from the ED?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

witzelsucht

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
475
Reaction score
728
Or any sleep drug? Trazodone? Or just tell them to get some melatonin.

Not the drug addict weirdos, just legitimate people who swing by at 1am and can't get in to a PCP for a week or two.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Speaking as a PCP, please don't. Otherwise they come to me on Ambien and nothing else will ever work for them and they will refuse things like basic sleep hygiene or CBT.

I'd love for you to not write for any sleep drug, but at the very least don't write for Ambien (unless they are already on it and just ran out before they're able to get in to see a PCP, that's OK).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
Nope.

Also, not an emergency.

Also, never seen a "legitimate" person with this chief complaint at 1am.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Nope.

Also, not an emergency.

Also, never seen a "legitimate" person with this chief complaint at 1am.

i guess what i meant was "less floridly illegitimate than average" but sure
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I've never written for Ambien.

I have given hydroxyzine to patients boarding overnight in the ED who complain that they can't sleep.
 
Or any sleep drug? Trazodone? Or just tell them to get some melatonin.

Not the drug addict weirdos, just legitimate people who swing by at 1am and can't get in to a PCP for a week or two.
What? Absolutely not. As has been alluded to previously, the people that come to the ED for insomnia at 1 AM are not normal people. The last one I had was convinced that he had fatal familial insomnia. I asked if anyone in his family had it. They did not. He went home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I've written for a single tab before, always after a convo about how this isn't an emergency and how medicine is not appropriate for long term or regular usage. I've never written for anything other than ambien for insomnia (and never order anything else for boarding patients, aside from continuation of chronic meds) since I don't believe antihistamines actually promote useful sleep
 
No but one time an MSW was trying to pressure me into writing a script so we could dispo a patient
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Never write for it, but I do suggest melatonin. Some voodoo there, but I do like it post nights.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I’ve written for vistaril a few times if there is an anxiety component and they seem pretty reasonable and not high on meth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
No. Never.

I have fielded complaints from our turbo-wealthy/entitled patients about why I wouldn't do so.

Each and every time, there was another drug or three on board. Benzos. Booze. Buspar. Whatever. Not an emergency. Go the hell home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I've written for it maybe once or twice in my career. Everyone keeps saying not an emergency, but in reality, 85% of what I see day to day is not a true emergency. With proper screening and questioning (no prior substance abuse history, relatively normal person), it may be appropriate in the right setting. I've never Rx'd for more than 2 tabs. I suffered from insomnia in college and it's no fun. If people find that it improves their quality of life, they can pursue a longer term Rx from their PCP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Patient satisfaction-centered care leads to higher death rates and promotes drug abuse and diversion.

The Cost of Satisfaction

Patient Satisfaction, Prescription Drug Abuse, and Potential Unintended Consequences

Thank you so much for that! I just emailed that to our department. If you find more articles/research on the impact of patient satisfaction driven care, please share them with us. I will continue to hammer my department leadership with it. Even if they choose to do nothing, I will at least get to annoy them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not only not an emergency but giving in and prescribing even "just one pill" encourages visits for this kind of nonsense, plus as our primary care colleagues have said, makes their jobs harder. We've all had insomnia. Not life threatening. Take a benadryl and read the phone book.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not only not an emergency but giving in and prescribing even "just one pill" encourages visits for this kind of nonsense, plus as our primary care colleagues have said, makes their jobs harder. We've all had insomnia. Not life threatening. Take a benadryl and read the phone book.

Agree completely. I like to make patients dissatisfied so they won't come to the hospital for this kind of BS, or if they do they will seek another facility at which I don't work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
I have, ONCE ever, and I think for #2 pills. In a patient with a compelling story, having tried multiple things, and having full access to their PCP's EMR (they had multiple visits over the past few weeks about insomnia, and the plan WAS to try ambien next) and full access to the PMP (zero hits in past 12mo).

So once per decade.

I have suggested melatonin, sleep hygiene, atarax for anxiety component many times.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I bet I've done it a handful of times. Never more than #5-7. Usually in association with a traumatic incident like finding a spouse hanging or a rape or something.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I bet I've done it a handful of times. Never more than #5-7. Usually in association with a traumatic incident like finding a spouse hanging or a rape or something.

I have, for one entire tablet. There's no reason for more than one or two from the ER- they can follow up with PMD on Monday. If they are that traumatized, they need F/U. If they aren't, then they def need follow up :)
 
I agree with the last several posts. If asked, my answer would be "never", but EM is so crazy at times I have learned never to say never. I can't think of a time where I would ever diagnose (or have ever diagnosed) insomnia and given Ambien. If a hotel burns down and one of them ends up with us and says they lost their ambien... maybe a couple until they get back home. (If that is the best they say they lost, then I will probably believe they are telling the truth.) A traumatic event where I might consider a benzo and they only ask for Ambien? O.K., maybe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Anyone noticed a weird trend on this forum where we all compete to see who is toughest on the patients? This seems like one of those threads.

There are a lot of things I don't do routinely that I do once in a blue moon. Like write for thirty oxycodone 30s or ambien or give a cab voucher or admit a fibromyalgia patient or order a drug screen or start someone on antihypertensives or metformin or something. It just makes sense in the situation. We don't live in an ideal world. We live in reality. You know, that place where you see patients who won't be seeing a PCP on Monday for one of a half dozen reasons.

I don't think I could hand a patient a prescription for one pill with a straight face. What's the point? If you think they're a druggie, don't give them any and tell them why. If you don't think they're a druggie, why are you being such a dick? How would you feel to go to the pharmacy and wait a half hour for one Ambien or one Norco?

/rant
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
I don't think I could hand a patient a prescription for one pill with a straight face. What's the point? If you think they're a druggie, don't give them any and tell them why. If you don't think they're a druggie, why are you being such a dick? How would you feel to go to the pharmacy and wait a half hour for one Ambien or one Norco?

/rant
I did that, once, in South Carolina. I told the pt that they would get a very small amount of Percocet, namely, one (1) pill RX, and that's what I did. The Pt's boyfriend then said, while leaving, that I had "a horrible bedside manner".
 
I give prescriptions for 1-2 pills for psych stuff (mainly on weekends and I explain that they need to see their doc on Monday to reevaluate their meds). They are OK with it and I think it's safer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't think I've ever prescribed Ambien before, but not based on any principled stand. I have, however, prescribed Ativan or Xanax for a patient with anxiety and insomnia. But, only when I actually believed the patient and felt bad for them.

I agree with White Coat's post. I never prescribe 1-2 pills. Why even do it then?

I try to be in the middle of the road when it comes to controlled substances. I'm bothered by extremes: I worked in one place where they would discharge fractures with Ibuprofen, and another where they gave out Percocet goodie bags.
 
How would you feel to go to the pharmacy and wait a half hour for one Ambien or one Norco?
If I suckered an EM doc into writing for it? I'd feel fine.

Feed the bears, and they become dependent. Just like with the proparacaine for corneal abrasions, anyone who trusts patients to do the right thing (for most of us) is a fool.

And I have the best reviews and Press-Ganeys of anyone with whom I work. I have a colleague that is a candy man, and his numbers suck. He has complaints every single week.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I've never written for Ambien, but I have very occasionally, in some of the situations WCI mentioned... sexual assault, big emotional trauma etc, write for a few (like 8-12) ativan tablets - if you can't sleep because you found your spouse having blown his head off after a suicide, yeah, you probably aren't going to sleep well (assuming, of course, you don't get admitted for chest pain, which is almost more likely.) That's different than insomnia. Plain-old insomnia gets sleep hygiene, melatonin, benadryl.

If you have insomnia because you slept with a girl who might have had leprosy (yes, I saw this patient - at 2 am), and you're fixated on it because you googled leprosy, you get reassurance, and advice to not randomly sleep with people because there are far more dangerous things than leprosy, which you can't catch that easily.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If you have insomnia because you slept with a girl who might have had leprosy (yes, I saw this patient - at 2 am), and you're fixated on it because you googled leprosy, you get reassurance, and advice to not randomly sleep with people because there are far more dangerous things than leprosy, which you can't catch that easily.
Hansen's disease, man! (Woman!) You're so insensitive!!

(No, you are not.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
90+% of patients I've seen with a cc of insomnia have slept for a significant portion of their stay in the ED. YMMV. I try not to prescribe habit forming medications for diseases that aren't self-limited. I will give a dose in the ED for many of the reasons that have been stated above (death of spouse being a big one), but otherwise I feel like I'm wandering way out of my lane.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
As previous posters have noted there is no "always" and "never" in my emergency practice; but generally I do not and I have not yet prescribed ambien. I could conceive of a hypothetical situation where I would. Despite my liberal use of benzos in the ER for agitation and anxiety; I have yet to prescribe outpatient doses of them for anxiety or psychiatric concerns either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Anyone noticed a weird trend on this forum where we all compete to see who is toughest on the patients? This seems like one of those threads.

I think there are a couple of related issues that are worth discussing. First, I disagree with that assessment because the general consensus seemed to be that while there are general rules, every patient is different and there are always exceptions. If I wanted to be tough I would say no "feel goods" (as our behavioral med folks like to call them) ever.

All medicine is local. Where I am, it is relatively easy to get patients to see a PCP, assuming that they don't have one already: reasonable health insurance mix, religious non-profit hospitals dominate and they expect their physicians to see Medicare and reimburse for charity care, a couple of FM residency programs that have "undeserved" clinics. etc. If I was in a situation where the ED was essentially primary care, my response would be different. In addition, over the years, we have worked out a truce with our primary care physicians, it is unwritten, and a matter of convention, but it essentially goes, we will not practice primary care, and they will not practice emergency medicine. Like all platitudes, it sounds better in words than in action. They won't tell their patients, "go to the ED and they can get an MRI and EMG done this afternoon", and we will not deliberately "stab them in the back." There are things that I cannot effectively treat out of the ED; anxiety, depression, insomnia, etc. My goal is to get them alive and in one piece to the physician who can at least give it a shot. If I give the insomnia patient 14 days of Ambien, I have essentially forced their hand with respect to evaluation and treatment. Granted, there is not duty to make their physician's job easier, but their is also no reason to make it more difficult. If a patient tells me that they have an appointment with their FM doc the next day, and I decide to write for ambien, I am writing for one pill. They can deal with it after that. Most of the time our patients can be seen by primary care within 48 business-hours, so that determines the quantity of what I am willing to prescribe. Someone here for business for ten days? That is a different dynamic - in several respects, actually.

As to the "foolish for filling one pill", I picked up a prescription for one Xanax for my wife last month: MRI and claustrophobia, so it isn't completely unheard of.

But again, all medicine is local and every patient is different. I am not going to stop writing for one ambien if indicated (see above) just because it is weird, but I am also not going to keep from writing for 10 in the very rare situation it is indicated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Every single person on this thread has written a prescription for something, for no reason other that to get a patient to leave the ED, at least once.


.




.



.


Except me, of course.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Anyone noticed a weird trend on this forum where we all compete to see who is toughest on the patients? This seems like one of those threads.

I try this "intentional dissatisfaction" technique at times, too. Its because (ready?) we feel like we have ZERO control over our work environment because although we're responsible for everything, we have the power over nothing; so we try to find something to "run things our way" and hit back at the completely unrealistic expectations of your average idi- er, ... patient. The prevailing logic here is "they can't reach a reasonable conclusion and behave appropriately, so I'll have to do it for them."

It hurt to write that, but its true. And I know I'm not alone on this forum.
 
Top