Do yourself a favor - take anatomy

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specialkay

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Hi there everyone -

I just wanted to say hello from Florida where I am a MS-1 and everything is going well.

I also wanted to mention something that I'm seeing a lot of fellow students struggle with (I'm talking about 10 out of 160 so its not that many but still worth mentioning).

Do yourself a favor and take anatomy at your undergrad. I know its not a pre-req but it has been incredibly hard for a lot of people.

At my school, we just finished a 10 week anatomy block and that is all the anatomy we get this year. About ten people failed the class and have to re-take it in the summer, and we only get a month off this year so that is terrible timing for them!

I do not learn super-fast and I like to comprehend as much as memorize. So, last semester I took anatomy, physiology and micro just to make sure I would do well.

I just finished anatomy with everyone else and I did well so I am glad I was prepared. It still wasn't easy though! Some people here are really upset that anatomy was so fast and they had never taken it before, the reason being is that "its not a pre-req".

Well, after watching them struggle for the last ten weeks and ultimately fail, I hope I can encourage one person to take anatomy before they get to med school so they can have an easier time. Consider it a pre-req, as well as biochem! Another area people are struggling in, terribly.

Give yourself an advantage. Anatomy at my school was cheap - or take it at a community college. The worst advice I heard was "relax, enjoy your summer and don't worry about anatomy until you get there". That might work for people who do well via memorizing but not for others who go more slowly. I would have taken it over the summer if I didn't take it in the spring.

Good luck and please let me know if this helped you!!

Kay
 
For those of us who can't afford it (due to financial or scheduling constraints) do you think getting a hold of an anatomy book is useful?

I got a packet consisting of a syllabus, exams, answer keys, etc for a biochem class--and I sent off for the book yesterday. But since anatomy is so much more hands-on, I'm not sure if I should do the same for that class. Is there a book someone can recommend that will get me started in the right direction for anatomy?
 
i've heard taking histo beforehand can be helpful. some schools like unecom will even let you get out taking it there.
 
PublicEnemy said:
i've heard taking histo beforehand can be helpful. some schools like unecom will even let you get out taking it there.

Yeah, the University of Washington offers a Histology pre-matriculation program. You take a 4 week intensive Histology class and then you can skip it during the first year.
 
MsEvolution said:
For those of us who can't afford it (due to financial or scheduling constraints) do you think getting a hold of an anatomy book is useful?

I got a packet consisting of a syllabus, exams, answer keys, etc for a biochem class--and I sent off for the book yesterday. But since anatomy is so much more hands-on, I'm not sure if I should do the same for that class. Is there a book someone can recommend that will get me started in the right direction for anatomy?

Yes, getting an anatomy book now and reading through it is extremely helpful.

At my school, we use Netter's Atlas which is mostly pictures. We also have Moore's Clinical Anatomy book. I found that to be dense and used my anatomy book from last semester which is Tortola - Principles of Human Anatomy.

By the second month, everyone was buying my Tortola book because it tells you what you need to know, more or less. The only time I went to the Moore is for the layers of the spermatic cord. I used the Netters for nerves and the abdominal viscera.

Anatomy is hands-on if that's how you learn. We had two cadavers and I NEVER looked at them as we were rarely tested on slides that came from the cadavers. Our tests were based on histology slides and facts about anatomy, the relationships in the body I learned from Netters.

We literally did the entire Tortola book in ten weeks. I highly recommend reading through it and outlining the chapters if you cannot take the class. There are also many websites where you can take practice anatomy tests that I used.

Good luck.

Kay
 
specialkay said:
Hi there everyone -

I just wanted to say hello from Florida where I am a MS-1 and everything is going well.

I also wanted to mention something that I'm seeing a lot of fellow students struggle with (I'm talking about 10 out of 160 so its not that many but still worth mentioning).

Do yourself a favor and take anatomy at your undergrad. I know its not a pre-req but it has been incredibly hard for a lot of people.

At my school, we just finished a 10 week anatomy block and that is all the anatomy we get this year. About ten people failed the class and have to re-take it in the summer, and we only get a month off this year so that is terrible timing for them!

I do not learn super-fast and I like to comprehend as much as memorize. So, last semester I took anatomy, physiology and micro just to make sure I would do well.

I just finished anatomy with everyone else and I did well so I am glad I was prepared. It still wasn't easy though! Some people here are really upset that anatomy was so fast and they had never taken it before, the reason being is that "its not a pre-req".

Well, after watching them struggle for the last ten weeks and ultimately fail, I hope I can encourage one person to take anatomy before they get to med school so they can have an easier time. Consider it a pre-req, as well as biochem! Another area people are struggling in, terribly.

Give yourself an advantage. Anatomy at my school was cheap - or take it at a community college. The worst advice I heard was "relax, enjoy your summer and don't worry about anatomy until you get there". That might work for people who do well via memorizing but not for others who go more slowly. I would have taken it over the summer if I didn't take it in the spring.

Good luck and please let me know if this helped you!!

Kay


I agree---anatomy is more important to take than Histo before you start med school
 
The real problem with most people is that they try to make anatomy into a subject that you memorize. That really is the hard way to learn anatomy. If you try to understand whats going on, tie it in with histology and enbryology you will find anatomy much more enjoyable and recallable on test day.

In the end everything is important. You really can't study for all of your calsses before med school starts. Unfortunately unless you really delve into a subject before you start school you're probally going to forget everything anyway. Enjoy your time off before you start school, cuz you will never have time like that gain. If you picked up good study skills in undergrad or grad school you should be ok in all of your classes. The material really is not that hard or complicated it's just that they kill you with volume.

just my .02 cents take it for what it's worth.
 
i agree with specialkay...if you can, try to familiarize yourself with the anatomical terms. maybe buy high-yield gross anatomy...it's a review book for the boards and it's not too expensive.
 
specialkay said:
Hi there everyone -

I just wanted to say hello from Florida where I am a MS-1 and everything is going well.

I also wanted to mention something that I'm seeing a lot of fellow students struggle with (I'm talking about 10 out of 160 so its not that many but still worth mentioning).

Do yourself a favor and take anatomy at your undergrad. I know its not a pre-req but it has been incredibly hard for a lot of people.

At my school, we just finished a 10 week anatomy block and that is all the anatomy we get this year. About ten people failed the class and have to re-take it in the summer, and we only get a month off this year so that is terrible timing for them!

I do not learn super-fast and I like to comprehend as much as memorize. So, last semester I took anatomy, physiology and micro just to make sure I would do well.

I just finished anatomy with everyone else and I did well so I am glad I was prepared. It still wasn't easy though! Some people here are really upset that anatomy was so fast and they had never taken it before, the reason being is that "its not a pre-req".

Well, after watching them struggle for the last ten weeks and ultimately fail, I hope I can encourage one person to take anatomy before they get to med school so they can have an easier time. Consider it a pre-req, as well as biochem! Another area people are struggling in, terribly.

Give yourself an advantage. Anatomy at my school was cheap - or take it at a community college. The worst advice I heard was "relax, enjoy your summer and don't worry about anatomy until you get there". That might work for people who do well via memorizing but not for others who go more slowly. I would have taken it over the summer if I didn't take it in the spring.

Good luck and please let me know if this helped you!!

Kay

Thanks for the post. I have been contemplating taking an anatomy course but have been dragging my feet. Now I am trying to figure out if I want to audit, P/F or take it for a grade.
 
mfcus said:
Thanks for the post. I have been contemplating taking an anatomy course but have been dragging my feet. Now I am trying to figure out if I want to audit, P/F or take it for a grade.

If you think you will work in that class, take it for a grade, so it can help your GPA. If you don't, then take it pass fail so that it is at least on your transcript and counts for credit hours.
 
Thanks you guys for the advice. I was trying to tell a friend of mine that they will benefit if they take anatomy during their undergrad. I'm not in med school yet but based on what you guys just said I'm glad I took anantomy before I graduated so that it will help me in the future in med school. 🙂
 
specialkay said:
Hi there everyone -

I just wanted to say hello from Florida where I am a MS-1 and everything is going well.

I also wanted to mention something that I'm seeing a lot of fellow students struggle with (I'm talking about 10 out of 160 so its not that many but still worth mentioning).

Do yourself a favor and take anatomy at your undergrad. I know its not a pre-req but it has been incredibly hard for a lot of people.

At my school, we just finished a 10 week anatomy block and that is all the anatomy we get this year. About ten people failed the class and have to re-take it in the summer, and we only get a month off this year so that is terrible timing for them!

I do not learn super-fast and I like to comprehend as much as memorize. So, last semester I took anatomy, physiology and micro just to make sure I would do well.

I just finished anatomy with everyone else and I did well so I am glad I was prepared. It still wasn't easy though! Some people here are really upset that anatomy was so fast and they had never taken it before, the reason being is that "its not a pre-req".

Well, after watching them struggle for the last ten weeks and ultimately fail, I hope I can encourage one person to take anatomy before they get to med school so they can have an easier time. Consider it a pre-req, as well as biochem! Another area people are struggling in, terribly.

Give yourself an advantage. Anatomy at my school was cheap - or take it at a community college. The worst advice I heard was "relax, enjoy your summer and don't worry about anatomy until you get there". That might work for people who do well via memorizing but not for others who go more slowly. I would have taken it over the summer if I didn't take it in the spring.

Good luck and please let me know if this helped you!!

Kay

Thanks for the advice, I was think
ing of taking anatomy and biochem despite all the advice telling me,.. RELAX & ENJOY. its just my type A personality wont let me. Problem is my undergrad (believe it or not) is not offering anatomy right now so i guess Ill have to study on my own..might as well get used to it huh!

Any other suggestions on books/studycards/ ADAM Interactive???

THx
 
I had two anatomy courses as an undergraduate, the first was just a lecture, but the second was a leture and lab (human cadaver dissection). Although you cannot get nearly the same appreciation for the structures of the human body, the basic anatomy class helped alot for the advanced anatomy class. And as well of a background these two courses have given me, I know they are not nearly in depth as we will get this fall. So yeah, a lecture anatomy or even a book should help alot.
 
OmedDOC said:
Thanks for the advice, I was think
ing of taking anatomy and biochem despite all the advice telling me,.. RELAX & ENJOY. its just my type A personality wont let me. Problem is my undergrad (believe it or not) is not offering anatomy right now so i guess Ill have to study on my own..might as well get used to it huh!

Any other suggestions on books/studycards/ ADAM Interactive???

THx


Hi again everyone,

Great! I am so happy to know that you all mostly agree and I am glad I reached some people. It is so hard to help someone in your class when they finally confide that they are failing and you're almost done with the class.

I agree with docgeorge, if you tie in anatomy to the other subjects, you will do well.

I bought the "First Aid for the USMLE" book which has anatomy and other subjects in it - it was a PERFECT review for our anatomy tests!! At the end of the semester I bought the Board Review Series anatomy because it has tests at the end of the chapters but I haven't looked at it yet. Everyone who had it liked it though.

Here's how I studied anatomy (don't laugh - this is full nerd alert):

I bought two book stands from Staples - they are plastic and hold the book up in front of you when you're reading to reduce neck strain.

I bought colored pens - Sharpie makes a nice fine-tipped set.

I bought 1000 sheets of paper.

I bought a large artist's sketchpad with thick unlined paper.

I went to lecture everyday, downloaded the powerpoint lecture on my computer and as the teacher gave the lecture I quickly outlined it in my own handwriting. Yes, these were 70-100 page powerpoints but they usually only have one bullet on them and a slide. Our teacher came from a MD school and used the same lectures he gave there.

I went over that lecture later in my own hand writing, making drawings with my colored pencils (I did this to literally engage my right-brain, or at least that's what I told myself as I stuffed my left-brain with facts!). After a few weeks, all my friends were doing the same things! If I didn't understand something, I would read the book but most of the info was in the lectures.

I went to anatomy lab. I drew out what we were supposed to learn in my artist's sketchbook and labeled it myself - and I am no picasso!! I just enjoyed making the connection visually. I did not do this for everything, just fun stuff. I never looked at the cadaver because the smell made me lose my appetite for about four hours afterwards and I was developing an aversion to Subway sandwiches that started to resemble soggy human flesh. And I live on Subway, so ...

I reviewed with friends. We would go over the lectures together right after the lecture was over with the First Aid book, focusing on what was to be on the boards in a few years. Our tests and the boards coincided quite a bit. We went over the pneumonics in the book instead of making our own - saves time!! We took that book everywhere, on the stairmaster at the gym, in the car, etc.

I did a final review with people I did not study with beforehand to make sure I was hitting all the points because everyone focuses on different subjects, that's just the way it is.

I took the tests well-rested and with a good attitude. Many people in med school still stay up all night, freaking. Working on adrenalin does not work for me, I get too burned out. Some of our tests are 5-6 hours! You need your energy.

And, for all my efforts, I did well. (well being a B, but I am always happy with a B).

If I had to teach myself, I would buy the Tortola book and just start looking up words, reading and outlining chapters. He even has clinical correlations in the chapters. I would also get the First Aid book and learn pneumonics, some are funny.

Again, good luck!! This is all opinion!! I want you all to do well and be awesome doctors!! Keep the questions coming!!

Thanks!!

Kay
 
I'm not an expert by any means, but I have made a point to talk to those who have taken anatomy as well as those who haven't and who are now in medical school. I haven't heard a marked difference in feelings of preparedness between the two groups. I didn't take anatomy, but I read an anatomy book in preparation for the MCAT, and it seems that undergrad anatomy doesn't go nearly as into detail as medical school anatomy texts. Well, I was thinking about taking anatomy, but then after talking to a bunch of people who had taken it and didn't feel like it helped that much, I just decided to wait until medical school.

Keep in mind that many who enter medical school have not taken anatomy and have done just fine. There are plenty of grad level classes we could take that would be similar in content and level of difficulty to medical school classes...but most don't take them-and to no ill effect in their medical school career. I suppose it just depends on how you want to spend your final year before medical school.
 
I took an anatomy class in undergrad, and while it gave a nice overview of the materials we learned this semester, it did jack-squat to prepare me for Med school anatomy. In undergrad you could get away with saying..."why, that's the brachial plexus, period." In med school..."That's the musculocutaneous branch that leads to the blah blah blah." Anyway, I took the summer off before med school, and I entered into the bowels of first-year hell feeling very refreshed. But that's just me...
 
I am not that worried about anatomy, what about biochem? I think that would be much more difficult, anatomy is just memorizing structures, unless you are all refering to physiology as well.
 
LHUEMT911 said:
I am not that worried about anatomy, what about biochem? I think that would be much more difficult, anatomy is just memorizing structures, unless you are all refering to physiology as well.
I would get a background in Biochem. I had to take medical school Biochem and I had no background at that point in time and I found it really challenging. It seemed like people that took before did not have too much trouble with the course but I felt like a fish out of water.
 
So far I have read here that ONE needs a background in the following:

Anatomy
Histology
Biochemistry

How about the other half of first year medical school courses?

Should you get courses in:

Virology/Microbiology
Pharmacology
OMM
Patient care

Lets face it.. it is not going to be easy. But if any of these courses are required to succeed than they might as well make them pre-reqs.

I am not going to take any of these courses prior to starting medical school in Aug. I will just have to ruff it out.
 
DrCoreyOSU said:
I took an anatomy class in undergrad, and while it gave a nice overview of the materials we learned this semester, it did jack-squat to prepare me for Med school anatomy. In undergrad you could get away with saying..."why, that's the brachial plexus, period." In med school..."That's the musculocutaneous branch that leads to the blah blah blah." Anyway, I took the summer off before med school, and I entered into the bowels of first-year hell feeling very refreshed. But that's just me...

Yes, but by taking the anatomy class, you learn medical terminology which absolutely WILL help you in medical school.
 
docbill said:
So far I have read here that ONE needs a background in the following:

Anatomy
Histology
Biochemistry

How about the other half of first year medical school courses?

Should you get courses in:

Virology/Microbiology
Pharmacology
OMM
Patient care

Lets face it.. it is not going to be easy. But if any of these courses are required to succeed than they might as well make them pre-reqs.

I am not going to take any of these courses prior to starting medical school in Aug. I will just have to ruff it out.

This first semester goes alot smoother if you have some background. By the second semester, you are used to the routine.

Also, anatomy & physiology and biochem will be helpful on the MCAT.

I did not take any of these in college, however, but I did take Human Physiology, which really helped.
 
Ok, I took anatomy at the community college level 3 and a half years ago before I transferred to the university, and I had an overview in Paramedic recert course last summer. I start med school next fall, and I could fit in anatomy here at the university with biochem next semester. Do you guys think it would be benficial for someone like me to take it?
 
medic170 said:
Do you guys think it would be benficial for someone like me to take it?
I do not have your backgound, & will be only appliying for the '06 cycle. But now that the MCAT & pre-reqs are out of the way, I am trying to take as many courses as possible that I know will most directly prepare me for med school courses. I'm completing a MA in cell bio with courses in genetics, biochem, neuro, & developemental bio while TAing A&P.
Good Luck
 
medic170 said:
Ok, I took anatomy at the community college level 3 and a half years ago before I transferred to the university, and I had an overview in Paramedic recert course last summer. I start med school next fall, and I could fit in anatomy here at the university with biochem next semester. Do you guys think it would be benficial for someone like me to take it?

No, since I was a paramedic, I didn't take anatomy either.

Consider taking a Physiology or Biochemistry class
 
OSUdoc08 said:
Yes, but by taking the anatomy class, you learn medical terminology which absolutely WILL help you in medical school.

Taking undergrad anatomy can't hurt. I seriously doubt it helps as much as some on this thread think it will/does.
 
Lindyhopper said:
I do not have your backgound, & will be only appliying for the '06 cycle. But now that the MCAT & pre-reqs are out of the way, I am trying to take as many courses as possible that I know will most directly prepare me for med school courses. I'm completing a MA in cell bio with courses in genetics, biochem, neuro, & developemental bio while TAing A&P.
Good Luck

Hi Lindy,

You have the right spirit. You are preparing yourself to become a doctor and challenging yourself now - that is great. Kudos to you for taking more classes, you will do great in med school!

A lot of other people are missing my point. I wasn't making a statement on behalf of everyone that you should all take anatomy come hell or high water. I was just talking about the 5% of people in my class who would have benefited from taking anatomy beforehand. Those who have to repeat anatomy this summer instead of getting a break. Ten out of 160 people.

I wasn't talking to you, Mr. did great in anatomy anyway. I was talking to you, Ms. I'm a little shakey on med terminology and might fail my first course unknowingly and have the free time/money/determination to get a little bit out of the way first. If I didn't get to move back home for my last year I would have had to work as well and I might have been in the same situation as some of these people. Develop some empathy - it could be you failing out!

I never said that you need a background in anatomy or biochemistry. What I said was that taking anatomy would give SOME of you an advantage in the long run.

It sounds like some of you don't WANT to take anatomy so you're trying to get everyone else to agree that if its not going to help a majority of the class, then no one should take it. It also sounds like some of you did great in med school anatomy anyway and therefore, no one should take it beforehand. You're also not mentioning the people in class beside you who've failed and why. What about them? What do you think would have helped them?

Yes, med school is a lot of work and you will be exposed to subjects down the line that you will never have heard of before. Yes, you will be expected to pick up on them quickly. However, there are people in my med school class who are still spelling stomach with a K!

Mfcus - this post is great and I totally agree: "I would get a background in Biochem. I had to take medical school Biochem and I had no background at that point in time and I found it really challenging. It seemed like people that took before did not have too much trouble with the course but I felt like a fish out of water."

At my school, we have now moved into the problem-based learning curriculum where we meet in small groups and discuss cases. Those of us who've taken biochem are doing really well and not having to work as hard, but one girl is lagging behind as we move along because she didn't take anything above the pre-req's. She is getting really frustrated that we all understand the cases much more quickly and she has to spend a lot more time than us studying.

You're going to have to put the time in now or later, why not make things easier on yourself? It is hard for me to watch people pack up their bags and leave our school because they struggled with one class.

Again, good luck everyone. I want you all to do well. We all have different learning styles, hopefully this gave SOME of you a leg up.

Take care,

Kay
 
specialkay said:
A lot of other people are missing my point. I wasn't making a statement on behalf of everyone that you should all take anatomy come hell or high water. I was just talking about the 5% of people in my class who would have benefited from taking anatomy beforehand. Those who have to repeat anatomy this summer instead of getting a break. Ten out of 160 people.

I wasn't talking to you, Mr. did great in anatomy anyway. I was talking to you, Ms. I'm a little shakey on med terminology and might fail my first course unknowingly and have the free time/money/determination to get a little bit out of the way first. If I didn't get to move back home for my last year I would have had to work as well and I might have been in the same situation as some of these people. Develop some empathy - it could be you failing out!

I never said that you need a background in anatomy or biochemistry. What I said was that taking anatomy would give SOME of you an advantage in the long run.



Maybe you shouldn't title your post "do yourself a favor, take anatomy" if you don't mean for everyone to take your advice. I think thats where the misinterpretation is coming in.

I agree that yes, obviously if someone thinks that they will struggle more than the usual amount in med school, that they might want to consider taking anatomy as a prereq. But actually, some better advice for these people would be to split their first year into two years (an option that is available at many medical schools).

To all the rest...do yourself a favor, and try to enjoy life before medical school starts.
 
you should all quit worrying. Everything you need to know is taught in med school. 10 weeks is not enough time to learn much about anything (we spent that much in TAPP alone and I dont feel like i even scratched the surface there. unless you are still in school and have access to grad/PHD level anatomy, then these experiences wont even scrape the surface of what you be held responsible for in a real med anatomy class.. I hate to break it to you but knowing attachments as "tibia", a nerve as "brachial plexus" or a muscle as "hamstring" does not cut it! You get multiple oppurtunities to re-learn your anatomy throughout school and tRaining...dont wreck yourself now worrying about it. If you are picking your ass as an undergrad wondering what to sign up for next semster, then grab any class that will expose you to potential med school studies...histo, immuno etc. Those will help because everything you learn is watered down, and at high speed it just requires time...biochem especially. Gross anatomy will not be duplicated. Seriously, your life will suck soon enough...relax. :luck:
 
mcandy said:
you should all quit worrying. Everything you need to know is taught in med school. 10 weeks is not enough time to learn much about anything (we spent that much in TAPP alone and I dont feel like i even scratched the surface there. unless you are still in school and have access to grad/PHD level anatomy, then these experiences wont even scrape the surface of what you be held responsible for in a real med anatomy class.. I hate to break it to you but knowing attachments as "tibia", a nerve as "brachial plexus" or a muscle as "hamstring" does not cut it! You get multiple oppurtunities to re-learn your anatomy throughout school and tRaining...dont wreck yourself now worrying about it. If you are picking your ass as an undergrad wondering what to sign up for next semster, then grab any class that will expose you to potential med school studies...histo, immuno etc. Those will help because everything you learn is watered down, and at high speed it just requires time...biochem especially. Gross anatomy will not be duplicated. Seriously, your life will suck soon enough...relax. :luck:


Once again, the classes aren't for the purpose of remembering it for when you are in medical school. They are simply to familiarize yourself with the terminology used, because it will be assumed that you know anatomic medical terminology once you begin school. If one doesn't wish to familiarize themselves with specific anatomic terminology, then perhaps a medical terminology class would be more fitting.
 
you will understand soon enough. Three weeks of doing nothing just landed on my plate today. 👍
 
I'm studying for my human anatomy lecture final right now (undergraduate). I just took the lab final for the class this past Thursday.

We used the Tortora text and it is excellent (in my opinion) - I would definitely recomend it for someone wanting to study on their own, outside of a class. We also used the Allen lab manual, and the Basset atlas that had a lot of photos and diagrams.

It sounds like from what everyone is saying in this thread, there is a lot of diversity in what one will find in an undergraduate human anatomy class. I think I read that someone mentioned here that they just memorized names of structures. Thankfully, the Professor who is teaching our class has gone beyond that, we learned a lot more than just naming the structures. The Professor also teaches A&P classes, so he added in some physiology. Plus, just about every class session several questions were asked about how the systems we were going over worked and we went over a bunch of that stuff also.

I guess that I am just happy to hear that my Human Anatomy class will be helpful if I make it to med school! Kind of gives me some incentive to get back to preparing for the final ... :idea:
 
I totally agree....if I had to do it over again before starting my first semester, I would have taken Gross Anatomy
 
OSUdoc08 said:
This first semester goes alot smoother if you have some background. By the second semester, you are used to the routine.

Also, anatomy & physiology and biochem will be helpful on the MCAT.

lol and how would you know about the 2nd semester newbie?

take everything you can manage in to fit in during college, but don't think that it is in any way going to prepare you for the in depth level and amount of material that you will be covering. The only help that I got from my undergrad Anatomy (and it was a good class) was becoming familiar with structural terms such as foramen, ipsilateral, landmarks, etc. The only class I wish I had taken in undergrad was Histology, but that’s because the Prof. in undergrad at one point taught histo at 1 of the Michigan medical schools (if I’m remember correctly)
 
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