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Don't want to get into this, but let's just say I got told this by a "friend" from a research lab. Thoughts?
Doctors = dumb-er versions of PhDs?
- Thread starter Thesimplelifeofamyloid
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It's possible. I've met some actually unintelligent doctors.
It takes a different type of thinking to be an MD vs PhD.
It takes a different type of thinking to be an MD vs PhD.
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Then don't.
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deleted972488
Yikes... just no.
depends heavily on the type of PhD and the type of MD specialist.
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Well a PhD is a doctor so I can't imagine your friend having a very compelling argument
It does not matter what specialty the MD is... Even the worst MD can get a Ph.D. in almost every field except physics/math or related fields. On average, US physicians have higher IQ than every single other profession (even higher than scientists) according to the University of Wisconsin
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deleted957830
Agree with the above^. I once heard someone say that phd’s are smarter than md’s. Then I heard a physician say “I don’t know what kind of intellect it takes to choose a career that makes 50-70k vs 200+, but I’m glad I don’t have it”.
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deleted972488
What's required to get a PhD is not raw intelligence, but passion, determination, and persistence. I know many people who have gotten both degrees and they all say the PhD was more challenging. You don't need to be "smart" in the traditional sense, though.
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907914
Two completely different realms.
PhD is 4 - 8 years dedicated exclusively towards the theory of something and the "how/why" with an additional however long and however many number of post-docs with ever increasing focus. They know A LOT about a specific area. They are likely subject matter experts on the theory of their field.
MD is 3-5 years of general and broad study covering 'this is a person and this is how you treat it' with a lot of "what" and a good chunk of the "why/how." This is followed by 3-8 years in either a broad knowledge base (like FM) producing a jack-of-all-trades or a VERY specific skill set directed towards anatomy or anatomical concept (like cardiology).
Likely the broad knowledge folks do not know as much about any one particular subject as a PhD but they know something about more subjects. And likely the specific-knowledge MD/DO could hold a conversation with a PhD in their field, but the PhD would know more about the theory whereas the 'cardiologist' would know more about the practice.
This is really simplified and likely slightly or grossly inaccurate, however comparing the intelligence of individuals based on the degree they have is not constructive in itself. A PhD vs an MD/DO is like comparing apples to oranges.
PhD is 4 - 8 years dedicated exclusively towards the theory of something and the "how/why" with an additional however long and however many number of post-docs with ever increasing focus. They know A LOT about a specific area. They are likely subject matter experts on the theory of their field.
MD is 3-5 years of general and broad study covering 'this is a person and this is how you treat it' with a lot of "what" and a good chunk of the "why/how." This is followed by 3-8 years in either a broad knowledge base (like FM) producing a jack-of-all-trades or a VERY specific skill set directed towards anatomy or anatomical concept (like cardiology).
Likely the broad knowledge folks do not know as much about any one particular subject as a PhD but they know something about more subjects. And likely the specific-knowledge MD/DO could hold a conversation with a PhD in their field, but the PhD would know more about the theory whereas the 'cardiologist' would know more about the practice.
This is really simplified and likely slightly or grossly inaccurate, however comparing the intelligence of individuals based on the degree they have is not constructive in itself. A PhD vs an MD/DO is like comparing apples to oranges.
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deleted972488
Lol. Maybe not everyone values money in the same way that this particular physician does. But there are many careers that make more money than physicians, so why did this person get an MD?
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deleted957830
I don’t know about “many”. There are very few careers that offer the same stability and income as physicians.
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deleted972488
Either way, people have different value systems.
There are none that offer both...
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907914
Nigerian prince. All you have to do is send emails and people send you money. Pretty stable with high income based on the effort you put in.
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deleted972488
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deleted957830
And regarding intelligence, this is purely anecdotal, but:
-I know many people pursuing phd's after failing to receive a medical school acceptance
-I know zero people pursuing md's after failing to receive a grad school acceptance
-And every year around step 1 time, phd's at my school always shake their heads and say "I don't know how you guys do this, but that's why you go on to make the big bucks".
Nevertheless, these degrees are two different beasts. One is more concentrated, the other is more broad. Both take dedication, yada yada yada. But if I had to put money on it, I would pick the MD being smarter.
-I know many people pursuing phd's after failing to receive a medical school acceptance
-I know zero people pursuing md's after failing to receive a grad school acceptance
-And every year around step 1 time, phd's at my school always shake their heads and say "I don't know how you guys do this, but that's why you go on to make the big bucks".
Nevertheless, these degrees are two different beasts. One is more concentrated, the other is more broad. Both take dedication, yada yada yada. But if I had to put money on it, I would pick the MD being smarter.
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deleted972488
MD programs are harder to get into... PhD programs are harder to get out of (successfully).
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I mean.... why does anyone care? Why do we feel the need to have this pissing contest?
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907914
Because this community is completely filled with pre-meds, medical students, residents, and even attendings who are constantly seeking validation from further and further self-flagellation and no amount of success will ever be good enough for us/them so we feel the need to either beat others down to make ourselves feel better or beat ourselves up for 'failing to prove ourselves.'
I cant really believe that. Some of the bottom tier Family med MDs are not as smart as the physics PhDs I used to work with (in my humble opinion)
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deleted964179
They’re both hard. We need each other. The end.
Being a janitor is hard too. We need janitors. The end?
Doctors are very knowledgeable about their chosen field.
I’m fully confident you do not need to be a a genius to have a doctorate in anything. An average IQ and a lot of hard work can get you an MD/DO or a PhD.
Although I personally think a medical doctor is the most useful degree. And the person people are talking about when they yell, “Is anyone here a doctor?!”
I’m fully confident you do not need to be a a genius to have a doctorate in anything. An average IQ and a lot of hard work can get you an MD/DO or a PhD.
Although I personally think a medical doctor is the most useful degree. And the person people are talking about when they yell, “Is anyone here a doctor?!”
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Of the most brilliant people I have ever met, (which includes some Nobel Laureates), some were PhDs, some were MDs and one had a BA and MS.
Medical school would have done this to me:
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How does med school differ from PHD programs?
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deleted972488
In just about every way possible.
It is not about pissing contest or penis measuring contest. It's an anonymous forum... Other professionals always question why physicians make 'so much' money, and one way they try to question your salary is by questioning how rigorous it is to become a physician... I have heard the 'could have' or 'would have' gone to med school by others. In fact, one NP told me that last week.
The question is: Why do people feel the need to compare their degree with a medical degree? I have never heard a physician compare his/her degree with some other degree.
The question is: Why do people feel the need to compare their degree with a medical degree? I have never heard a physician compare his/her degree with some other degree.
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It has to do with who has the least amount of post void residual volume!
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Sitting as an MD-PhD applicant, I wonder where I fall using this logic...
Regardless, I don't think discussing this topic is going to be useful. It's like comparing apples to oranges - the two career paths do vastly, vastly different things and have very different responsibilities. Comparing on the basis of salary would imply that financial executives and stock traders might be the most intelligent of all professions.
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deleted972488
This is essentially what I was trying to say and I agree completely.
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deleted964179
You’re captious and *****ic.
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Only came for the comments.
Yep. All of my classmates agreed that the PhD was harder. Medical training, particularly medical school, is heavily roadmapped with lots of resources telling you exactly what you need to know and need to do as you are trying to learn a body of knowledge to apply to new situations. For a PhD, you show up and there's no "First Aid for the PhD" that tells you exactly what you need to know and need to do. The whole point is that you are *generating* knowledge and venturing into the unknown. Many of my PhD only colleagues talk about how difficult a life in medicine must be and how they could never do it, but the fact is I don't think it's a coincidence that among those of us who have actually done both, there's a clear majority opinion.
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Will add my two cents in since I’m torn between getting a PhD in clinical psychology and med school. They are completely different things. Also I’ve heard in grad school tests aren’t multiple choice. When I speak to my PI I’m blown away by the amount of knowledge he has about psychopathology, cognition and other concepts. Most MDs/DOs are also pretty smart but it’s a different type of knowledge they possess .
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Pissing contests are for cheeky banter.
In the end, no one, except the insecure, cares.
In the end, no one, except the insecure, cares.
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907914
Is a standard pissing contest in reference to velocity, distance, or volume of the piss?
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I’ve many times referred to myself as a clinical, empiricist dumb***. I don’t pretend to erudition, I’ve made my study what works to get people better. And I have all love and respect for those doing the basic research to inform me how to do that better.
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Distance and volume of piss. The integral of velocity with respect to time is distance, so that is accounted for.
Penor size is bonus points.
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It’s just a different mode of thinking. Scientists are all about asking questions, exploring theories, designing experiments etc. I think it is not as difficult to get into a biology PhD program, but it is genuinely hard to be a top notch researcher.
Medicine is much more applied. Is there a point to someone who only sees patients knowing details about differential spine density in a certain type of brain cancer? Especially when animal studies don’t always align well with humans.
It’s just different priorities. I’m an MD/PhD student and I think that if I manage to graduate, both of my degrees will be earned through lots of work. There’s so much to learn for both degrees and I have immense respect for people who excel in one or both!
Medicine is much more applied. Is there a point to someone who only sees patients knowing details about differential spine density in a certain type of brain cancer? Especially when animal studies don’t always align well with humans.
It’s just different priorities. I’m an MD/PhD student and I think that if I manage to graduate, both of my degrees will be earned through lots of work. There’s so much to learn for both degrees and I have immense respect for people who excel in one or both!
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907914
Velocity and volume will also be dependent upon urethral size. Is there a scalar applied to account for different penile ad urethral cross sectional area?
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For the most part, you take coursework that is geared toward your area of expertise. For example, take a look at the anatomy program at BU:
No biochem, micro, immuno, pathology or physiology in sight.
The amount of class time is nowhere near what medical students have.
On top of class time, there are required rotations in different PI's labs, where you figure out who you want to supervise your research.
No national Boards, just a qualifier exam (written by Program Faculty) and perhaps some time of exercise, like a seminar, or writing a grant proposal, at the end of year two.
That's two years; the remaining time (3+ years) will be engaged in research. Some TA'ing might be required.
I think there are different national priorities for MDs vs PhDs
Society needs a certain number of competent medical doctors for a functioning medical system. Therefore, there is a more defined path to becoming a licensed and practicing MD (First Aid for the Boards*, etc) out of necessity.
Society doesn’t need as many PhDs. Yes, it needs some brilliant, high functioning PhD scientists to direct research. It’s clear that the cream will rise to the top and truly gifted will fill those positions. But so many more PhD candidates can fall by the wayside and it won’t really affect the function of society. They can just as easily become lecturers in University with a masters. So the PhD track can be more uncharted and “uncertain”.
Becoming an excellent physician/surgeon or excellent PhD scientist are both very difficult and only the smartest and hardest working achieve that.
*Fun Fact* The author of First Aid for the Boards was my supervising resident in the CCU when I was an intern
Society needs a certain number of competent medical doctors for a functioning medical system. Therefore, there is a more defined path to becoming a licensed and practicing MD (First Aid for the Boards*, etc) out of necessity.
Society doesn’t need as many PhDs. Yes, it needs some brilliant, high functioning PhD scientists to direct research. It’s clear that the cream will rise to the top and truly gifted will fill those positions. But so many more PhD candidates can fall by the wayside and it won’t really affect the function of society. They can just as easily become lecturers in University with a masters. So the PhD track can be more uncharted and “uncertain”.
Becoming an excellent physician/surgeon or excellent PhD scientist are both very difficult and only the smartest and hardest working achieve that.
*Fun Fact* The author of First Aid for the Boards was my supervising resident in the CCU when I was an intern
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907914
Every source I can find suggests there are more PhDs than Professional degrees in the US (2% vs 1.5%)
Does that speak to necessity of the degree?
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907914
Touché
I’m certainly not denigrating PhDs. Yes, we need research scientists. Do we need as many of them as we need physicians? Look at the quality of research that they do on the top end vs those on the lower end.
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deleted972488
We don't have as many of them as we do physicians. There are only enough tenure-track faculty jobs to accommodate about 10% of people who complete a PhD (at least in the biomedical sciences). If you think the only thing a PhD can get you is a faculty job, then you're participating in a pyramid scheme. PhD students are cheap labor for PIs and most of them do not go on to be PIs themselves, but the training comes with transferrable skills for industry, teaching, or medicine.
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