Doctors = dumb-er versions of PhDs?

[CidHighwind]

Depends on the Ph.D? Some fluff humanities PhD from some third rate uni? Unlikely. Some top Ph.Ds in STEM fields (especially Physics), I believe it. Just from the people I know, the PhD people I know definitely seem more “intellectual” and just generally seem smarter than my med school friends. Like a lot of people in my class are smart, but theres definitely some people that make you wonder. There’s some smart doctors, but a lot of medicine is about pattern recognition and memorization. There’s obviously more to it, but there’s a difference in being able to write a thesis on chemical reactions and quantum physics vs memorizing all of First Aid and UWorld.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[spartan25]

Only dumb people spell dumber with a hyphen

 

[LoGo]

These threads are always a joke, mostly people without knowledge of the other side making broad claims on something that doesn’t matter at all.

I did both - MD and PhD in engineering.

The PhD was harder, and doing engineering research is mentally more challenging than being a doctor. It was also easier to get into - not really a reflection of which requires more smarts to get into, but rather a simple ratio of number of interested applicants vs number of available spots and that ratio is definitely less skewed for grad school compared to med school.

The MD is more tiring. Physically more challenging (long, crappy hours), less ability to be creative and frankly more bland and repetitive in the day to day. But it can also be fun, social, nice to help people pretty quickly, and pays well.

Someone made a comment above about the kind of intelligence someone needs behind choosing a career that makes 70K instead of doing med school. Well, after doing both I’m now in a very competitive residency that will pay above average as a staff, but mark my words I will NEVER work full time clinically. More money or not, I’d go insane doing pure medicine every day for the rest of my life.

So maybe it also takes a certain level of intellect to recognize that making a boatload of money doesn’t do you any good if you don’t have time to enjoy it or if you burn yourself out early.

Plus AI isn’t going to take over a PhDs job (sarcastically looking at you rads).

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Doctors =smarter version of phds.

Who spends 4-5 years in a lab only to make part time GP money after?

 

[Osteosaur]

1) How is this at all a productive discussion?
2) Why do premeds keep posting nonsense in the medical student forums?
3) Who cares what "some guy" in a lab says? Did he lose a grant to an MD?

You're comparing apples and oranges. Its two very different skillsets. To be a doctor you need to be able to learn and apply a vast amount of very generalized information. To be a successful PhD (not a PhD in Intersectional Sociology or other nonsense) you need to have more creative and problem-solving abilities. Granted, I think it is easier for a mediocre person to skate by as a graduate student if they are given a nice PI or an institution is dead-set on graduating them. I've met brilliant graduate students and dumb ones, the same with medical students, but if you're a dumb or lazy medical student there are way more checkpoints.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Doctors for the most part require people skills. Research labs are fraught with dysfunction and pettiness. In my experience, N=2, a family relative couldn't score above 27 on old MCAT and now is a research PhD. I had an MD, PhD trainer from Columbia who was a complete boob. A walking textbook unable to apply knowledge to individual patients. Hence lacking wisdom, according to Whitehead. So go figure. It's the age old question Hellmans or Miracle Whip? Wars have been fought over less!

 

[CidHighwind]

Doctors for the most part require people skills. Research labs are fraught with dysfunction and pettiness. In my experience, N=2, a family relative couldn't score above 27 on old MCAT and now is a research PhD. I had an MD, PhD trainer from Columbia who was a complete boob. A walking textbook unable to apply knowledge to individual patients. Hence lacking wisdom, according to Whitehead. So go figure. It's the age old question Hellmans or Miracle Whip? Wars have been fought over less!

Those types would probably do better at something like pathology vs clinical medicine. Also I think it depends on what type of doctor. Nowadays bedside manner and being nice to others is emphasized, but I’ve met a lot of older docs that are terrible with people and have poor bedside manner.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Christopher Duntsch has both, so maybe they’re both stupid.

 

[libertyyne]

There are idiots in both fields.

I will say some of the physics / math / hard science people could mop the floor with a majority of physicians I have met or people in my class.

There is probably a larger variation in PHDs with the SD's being large to the point where the comparison is hard to make.

Anyone who thinks medical school itself requires genius level intelligence is blowing smoke up their own behind. A majority of medical school is rote memorization of small factoids and being good at taking dumb tests that literally ask you that. IMO, Most people of average intelligence could brute force their way to a STEP 1 score one standard deviation above the mean.

Most people in my class would not qualify for mensa.

The old MCAT test in the 90's was accepted at 95th percentile? How many people actually score at that range and get accepted into medical school? Probably close to 10% at MD schools.


Oddly enough one of the smarted people i know does have a phd in communications. But that person is by far the exception to the rule .

 

[CidHighwind]

There are idiots in both fields.

I will say some of the physics / math / hard science people could mop the floor with a majority of physicians I have met or people in my class.

There is probably a larger variation in PHDs with the SD's being large to the point where the comparison is hard to make.

Anyone who thinks medical school itself requires genius level intelligence is blowing smoke up their own behind. A majority of medical school is rote memorization of small factoids and being good at taking dumb tests that literally ask you that. IMO, Most people of average intelligence could brute force their way to a STEP 1 score one standard deviation above the mean.

Most people in my class would not qualify for mensa.
View attachment 277321
The old MCAT test in the 90's was accepted at 95th percentile? How many people actually score at that range and get accepted into medical school? Probably close to 10% at MD schools.


Oddly enough one of the smarted people i know does have a phd in communications. But that person is by far the exception to the rule .

I think a more elegant way to restate your point is that the floor for PhD candidates is lower than that of MDs, but that the ceiling for PhDs is MUCH higher. Think the Einsteins, Hawkings, Tysons, etc.

 

[deleted964179]

My theory is that this is a trap to see how dumb physicians, premeds, and med students are and at how much depth they’ll go into with this to boost their ego. Just a theory. It’s a good one imo.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My theory is that this is a trap to see how dumb physicians, premeds, and med students are and at how much depth they’ll go into with this to boost their ego. Just a theory. It’s a good one imo.

I majored in math, but I was too dumb to get a PhD in that so I went to med school instead.

 

[MSTP18]

I majored in math, but I was too dumb to get a PhD in that so I went to med school instead.

I have a friend who did a PhD in math and I legit have no ****ing idea what he did or what any of it means. I’ve never been so lost listening to someone talk.

 

[MSTP18]

Those types would probably do better at something like pathology vs clinical medicine. Also I think it depends on what type of doctor. Nowadays bedside manner and being nice to others is emphasized, but I’ve met a lot of older docs that are terrible with people and have poor bedside manner.

Someone without people skills would not do well in path. We are dealing with people all the time. It’s just none of them are patients.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Oh god who cares

 

[nimbus]

I have a friend who did a PhD in math and I legit have no ****ing idea what he did or what any of it means. I’ve never been so lost listening to someone talk.

Similar story. Fellow audiophile friend who has Ph.D. in high energy physics from Univ of Chicago, worked as a strat at Goldman, now a managing director at Deutsche Bank. I was always good at math but his quantitative skills/ability to imagine abstract concepts is an order of magnitude beyond mine.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have a friend who did a PhD in math and I legit have no ****ing idea what he did or what any of it means. I’ve never been so lost listening to someone talk.

Lol yeah I mean I was mostly joking but the stuff those guys work on is super up there. A math degree like gives you the very basic foundation to start learning that stuff but a lot of what those people do is beyond us too, which sounds crazy but grad level math just requires a lot of foundational knowledge. They don’t usually teach stuff like Lie groups in undergrad.

 

[deleted964179]

Nobody cares

 

[RNthenDoc]

The smart people don't sit around talking about who's smart; they're too busy accomplishing things

 

[Goro]

Doctors =smarter version of phds.

Who spends 4-5 years in a lab only to make part time GP money after?

People who get paid to go to grad school in a buyer's market and who also are actively sought after for their post-graduate training. $0 debt after graduation as well.

It's the job hunting part that's harder.

We don't have to worry about getting sued for malpractice, either!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

People who get paid to go to grad school in a buyer's market and who also are actively sought after for their post-graduate training. $0 debt after graduation as well.

It's the job hunting part that's harder.

We don't have to worry about getting sued for malpractice, either!

I’ll take residency over endless postdocs lol.

 

[deleted972488]

I’ll take residency over endless postdocs lol.

I will most likely have the lovely opportunity to do both.

 

[libertyyne]

I will most likely have the lovely opportunity to do both.

Getting A psychiatrist would be cheaper.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

People who get paid to go to grad school in a buyer's market and who also are actively sought after for their post-graduate training. $0 debt after graduation as well.

It's the job hunting part that's harder.

We don't have to worry about getting sued for malpractice, either!

I’ll take residency over endless postdocs lol.

Endless post docs sounds harsh. In the clinical psychology world a post doc is someone who completed 4-5 years of coursework and did an internship but still needs more hours after internship to be licensed as a clinical psychologist. So not endless But most of us do need malpractice insurance

 

[deleted972488]

Endless post docs sounds harsh. In the clinical psychology world a post doc is someone who completed 4-5 years of coursework and did an internship but still needs more hours after internship to be licensed as a clinical psychologist. So not endless But most of us do need malpractice insurance

I’ve known several people in my field who have done 2-3 postdocs (AFTER a PhD) and took ~ 5 years for each postdoc position. They were eventually promoted to staff scientists, but it’s just not worth it imho. You have to really love the benchwork.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

I’ve known several people in my field who have done 2-3 postdocs (AFTER a PhD) and took ~ 5 years for each postdoc position. They were eventually promoted to staff scientists, but it’s just not worth it imho. You have to really love the benchwork.

Have no clue what field you’re in but clinical psych post doc is 1 year and you’re then licensed as a clinical psychologist. Most people in clinical PhD programs after they graduate do clinical work and not research . Though some people do research but majority do clinical work .

 

[deleted972488]

Have no clue what field you’re in but clinical psych post doc is 1 year and you’re then licensed as a clinical psychologist. Most people in clinical PhD programs after they graduate do clinical work and not research . Though some people do research but majority do clinical work .

That sounds nice. I’m in more basic biomedical research.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

People who get paid to go to grad school in a buyer's market and who also are actively sought after for their post-graduate training. $0 debt after graduation as well.

It's the job hunting part that's harder.

We don't have to worry about getting sued for malpractice, either!

My Niece is a PhD. Seems grant money has really dried up, unless you have an established lab. She has had a couple rejected so far this past year?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Have no clue what field you’re in but clinical psych post doc is 1 year and you’re then licensed as a clinical psychologist. Most people in clinical PhD programs after they graduate do clinical work and not research . Though some people do research but majority do clinical work .

Yeah hard science post docs are not like that lol.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Yeah hard science post docs are not like that lol.

Yeah, clinical/school/counseling psychology are probably the oddball Ph.D.'s as after you complete them and internship and post-doc you get a license to be able to treat patients. But if you do a Ph.D. in sociology or Ph.D. in other social scienes you will also be doing endless post-docs.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, clinical/school/counseling psychology are probably the oddball Ph.D.'s as after you complete them and internship and post-doc you get a license to be able to treat patients. But if you do a Ph.D. in sociology or Ph.D. in other social scienes you will also be doing endless post-docs.

Yeah my sister has a PhD in clinical psych. She just finished and is now doing a postdoc.

 

[Goro]

My Niece is a PhD. Seems grant money has really dried up, unless you have an established lab. She has had a couple rejected so far this past year?

It's a furnace out there. I've been told of Nobel Laureates who are begging for money. And nowadays to get a faculty job one has to have grant money coming in! I really lucked out in landing at a teaching intensive school.

 

[mwsapphire]

Being a janitor is hard too. We need janitors. The end?

I...are you trying to say that's controversial? Have you ever stepped into a public building?

 

[7331poas]

I...are you trying to say that's controversial? Have you ever stepped into a public building?

Would you say that janitors are dumber than doctors?

 

[mwsapphire]

Would you say that janitors are dumber than doctors?

Would I say all doctors have the patience and humility to be janitors? Would I say that there are other valuable human traits beyond IQ? Would I say you have an ego that needs stroking? yes.
( and to answer your question, well, yeah, but "dumb" compared to a doc isn't necessarily a bad thing).

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Would you say that janitors are dumber than doctors?

Have you ever been to Newark airport?

 

[Ludwig2000]

Have you ever been to Newark airport?

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

Is there a difference?

 

[7331poas]

Would I say all doctors have the patience and humility to be janitors? Would I say that there are other valuable human traits beyond IQ? Would I say you have an ego that needs stroking? yes.
( and to answer your question, well, yeah, but "dumb" compared to a doc isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Those questions werent posited in the opening post, so I did not address them.

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

There are idiots in both fields.

I will say some of the physics / math / hard science people could mop the floor with a majority of physicians I have met or people in my class.

There is probably a larger variation in PHDs with the SD's being large to the point where the comparison is hard to make.

Anyone who thinks medical school itself requires genius level intelligence is blowing smoke up their own behind. A majority of medical school is rote memorization of small factoids and being good at taking dumb tests that literally ask you that. IMO, Most people of average intelligence could brute force their way to a STEP 1 score one standard deviation above the mean.

Most people in my class would not qualify for mensa.
View attachment 277321
The old MCAT test in the 90's was accepted at 95th percentile? How many people actually score at that range and get accepted into medical school? Probably close to 10% at MD schools.


Oddly enough one of the smarted people i know does have a phd in communications. But that person is by far the exception to the rule .

I definitely agree with most of what your saying. Problem is with this, is that you need a incredibly high amount of work ethic for medical school to keep up. Most of the people I met in undergrad would never be able to keep up. Also, medical school isn't the "end goal."

 

[PikminOC]

I cant really believe that. Some of the bottom tier Family med MDs are not as smart as the physics PhDs I used to work with (in my humble opinion)

That's not a valid comparison. Most PhD are not in physics

 

[PikminOC]

I definitely agree with most of what your saying. Problem is with this, is that you need a incredibly high amount of work ethic for medical school to keep up. Most of the people I met in undergrad would never be able to keep up. Also, medical school isn't the "end goal."

Correct. And to keep up with the competition of other vetted and filtered medical students

 

[PipetteDreams]

I definitely agree with most of what your saying. Problem is with this, is that you need a incredibly high amount of work ethic for medical school to keep up. Most of the people I met in undergrad would never be able to keep up. Also, medical school isn't the "end goal."

Many things in life require an incredibly high amount of work ethic. You're working hard, but don't let that blind you to how difficult other tracks are, too. It's not a competition.

While in medicine, you are constantly getting feedback, milestones, and landmarks indicating progress. You are essentially hopping from carrot-to-carrot along a difficult path -- but there's still significant support.

That is not true during a PhD. It's months to years without meaningful feedback (grant application, paper revisions, etc) or an end in sight. You are navigating a problem with no known solution, often working horrible hours on tedious experiments to just take a chance at getting a small part of the answer... assuming no random act of misfortune ruins your months-long experiment (say, an infection being transferred to your mouse colony). It, too, is not for the faint of heart.

While I had a great PhD experience, I love medical school way more. Patient interaction, constant learning, frequent feedback, momentum in progress, and scheduled breaks make it a much easier road to travel.

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

Many things in life require an incredibly high amount of work ethic. You're working hard, but don't let that blind you to how difficult other tracks are, too. It's not a competition.

While in medicine, you are constantly getting feedback, milestones, and landmarks indicating progress. You are essentially hopping from carrot-to-carrot along a difficult path -- but there's still significant support.

That is not true during a PhD. It's months to years without meaningful feedback (grant application, paper revisions, etc) or an end in sight. You are navigating a problem with no known solution, often working horrible hours on tedious experiments to just take a chance at getting a small part of the answer... assuming no random act of misfortune ruins your months-long experiment (say, an infection being transferred to your mouse colony). It, too, is not for the faint of heart.

While I had a great PhD experience, I love medical school way more. Patient interaction, constant learning, frequent feedback, momentum in progress, and scheduled breaks make it a much easier road to travel.

Of course. I'm not saying other fields don't work hard, but rather a special type of work ethic is needed for medical school that most undergraduates don't have. Usually those types of people wouldn't get a PhD either. Nothing compares to the volume of information you get, and the competition your up against. In undergrad I knew people who would only study a couple days before an exam, get a C, and be happy with it. I was just saying this in terms of "anyone could do it" nonsense that is perpetuated

 

[keolu hills]

Hands down!! You definitely need a high work ethic to finish a PhD. I did both, so I know. Sticktoitiveness is an understatement.

 

[aldol16]

It's a furnace out there. I've been told of Nobel Laureates who are begging for money. And nowadays to get a faculty job one has to have grant money coming in! I really lucked out in landing at a teaching intensive school.

It's due to the intense competition and (in my opinion) supersaturation of the PhD market in most fields. The problem is why would a university hire you as faculty over someone else who is bringing grant money? Even if you did your post-doc with someone more well-known, even if you have more papers. The person who got the grant (who needed at least some good ideas to get the grant in the first place) is more likely to continue bringing in grant money in the future, and already has a running start. Less money out of the university's pocket.

 

[Goro]

It's due to the intense competition and (in my opinion) supersaturation of the PhD market in most fields. The problem is why would a university hire you as faculty over someone else who is bringing grant money? Even if you did your post-doc with someone more well-known, even if you have more papers. The person who got the grant (who needed at least some good ideas to get the grant in the first place) is more likely to continue bringing in grant money in the future, and already has a running start. Less money out of the university's pocket.

Yup!

 

[nimbus]

For those who think derm and ortho are competitive.

Young scientists flail in sink or swim system

More support is needed to keep early-career investigators in a biomedical research career

www.natureindex.com

 

[aldol16]

For those who think derm and ortho are competitive.

Young scientists flail in sink or swim system

More support is needed to keep early-career investigators in a biomedical research career

www.natureindex.com

I think the crux of the issue is captured in this one statement: "Every year, another 10,000 biomedical and clinical PhDs join the ranks of postdoctoral fellows, while funding and faculty positions flatline."

In medicine, the competitive specialties are "gated" at the door. This means that it's competitive in the sense that few people actually get through the "doors" of the specialty and instead have to do something else. In science, the competition is beyond the door. It's gated at the level of getting grant funding.

Now this creates a huge issue. In medicine, while there's intense competition to get through the door of competitive specialties, once you're in, you're in and can be guaranteed to become a doc in that specialty with all its benefits. If you don't get in or are not competitive enough, then you end up doing something else. You still become a doctor in whatever other specialty you go into, with all of its benefits. In other words, you don't end up training for 5+ years in a competitive specialty only to find out that you may never be hired to do that job. The problem with science is that the gating mechanism is at the grant level. So you get your PhD, but that does not guarantee you a job or funding. So now you've spent 5+ years of your life training for something that you may never end up doing. This creates an increasing population of PhD scientists who cannot capitalize on their PhDs. You don't have the same phenomenon with MDs.

So the solution, in my opinion, is to move the gating mechanism in science back. Graduate fewer PhDs who are of higher quality. Now, there are multiple challenges to this, including the fact that science is driven by high-throughput publication. PIs are rewarded for quantity (and to a lesser extent, quality) of their work. So it's to their advantage to hire as many grad students as they can afford to further their own careers.

 

[deleted972488]

I think the crux of the issue is captured in this one statement: "Every year, another 10,000 biomedical and clinical PhDs join the ranks of postdoctoral fellows, while funding and faculty positions flatline."

In medicine, the competitive specialties are "gated" at the door. This means that it's competitive in the sense that few people actually get through the "doors" of the specialty and instead have to do something else. In science, the competition is beyond the door. It's gated at the level of getting grant funding.

Now this creates a huge issue. In medicine, while there's intense competition to get through the door of competitive specialties, once you're in, you're in and can be guaranteed to become a doc in that specialty with all its benefits. If you don't get in or are not competitive enough, then you end up doing something else. You still become a doctor in whatever other specialty you go into, with all of its benefits. In other words, you don't end up training for 5+ years in a competitive specialty only to find out that you may never be hired to do that job. The problem with science is that the gating mechanism is at the grant level. So you get your PhD, but that does not guarantee you a job or funding. So now you've spent 5+ years of your life training for something that you may never end up doing. This creates an increasing population of PhD scientists who cannot capitalize on their PhDs. You don't have the same phenomenon with MDs.

So the solution, in my opinion, is to move the gating mechanism in science back. Graduate fewer PhDs who are of higher quality. Now, there are multiple challenges to this, including the fact that science is driven by high-throughput publication. PIs are rewarded for quantity (and to a lesser extent, quality) of their work. So it's to their advantage to hire as many grad students as they can afford to further their own careers.

Most of the productivity in the laboratory comes from postdocs, rather than PhD students. Postdocs are actually cheaper (because you don't have to pay for their tuition/fees) and require less training/supervision/guidance, too.

Yes, we are training more PhDs than are necessary to fill all of the faculty positions, but that isn't the only type of job that allows one to use the skills gained from obtaining a PhD.