Doctor's Going Broke - CNN article

[jman128]

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http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/smallbusiness/doctors_broke/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3&hpt=hp_c1

The future doesn't look bright.

 

[Stumpyman]

"I personally would love to see some sort of programs that would forgive Doctors and Nurses of their student loans if they agree to work for so many years in areas of this country that desperately could use a medical clinic."

I think I agree with this.

 

[EBTrailRunner]

Dang. I guess I should forget about going in August.

 

[deleted307836]

Warning: Do not read the comments to avoid going insane.

This is a good article. I think that salaried physician positions in hospitals/larger care systems are part of the future of medicine -- the viability of private practices has decreased every year for at least a decade now. It's unfortunate if private practice is what you wanted but I don't think anything is stopping this train now.

 

[gettheleadout]

Dr. Mike Gorman has taken out an SBA loan to keep his rural solo practice running in Logandale, Nev. "If things don't improve fast, I will have no choice but to close my doors," he said.

Logandale is one of three towns in Moapa Valley, Nevada, which has a total population under 6,000. Not that surprising that he can't sustain a business with the expected insurance distribution in that setting.

 

[camierz]

Warning: Do not read the comments to avoid going insane.

This is a good article. I think that salaried physician positions in hospitals/larger care systems are part of the future of medicine -- the viability of private practices has decreased every year for at least a decade now. It's unfortunate if private practice is what you wanted but I don't think anything is stopping this train now.

I was just going to comment on that. I don't know whats scarier, doctors going broke or the comments below that article.

 

[gettheleadout]

Warning: Do not read the comments to avoid going insane.

Doctors u're the same as we're.So Get broke!!
You can say 'diet', but you need to go on one.

Alright then.

 

[deleted307836]

I was just going to comment on that. I don't know whats scarier, doctors going broke or the comments below that article.

I think a large segment of the general population is always going to view doctors as "audi driving d-bags," to quote one poetic user. Maybe they'll become more sympathetic once they have trouble getting care for themselves and their family and realize why.

 

[RollTide22]

The comments on this article are ridiculous (we'll be saving these ungrateful people's lives someday!). Anytime something like this happens, we should make it known to SDN so we can have a massive uprising and bombard the comment section with truth bombs 😉

 

[ahens23]

I think a large segment of the general population is always going to view doctors as "audi driving d-bags," to quote one poetic user. Maybe they'll become more sympathetic once they have trouble getting care for themselves and their family and realize why.

I agree, people really have a bad idea of doctors with regards to their income. And most think that their primary care doctor is just in it for the money...If they only new that that physician is among the lowest paid of all doctors, maybe they'd chill. Lack of knowledge is a terrible thing.

 

[mauberley]

Warning: Do not read the comments to avoid going insane.

Generally good practice when reading any comments-enabled article on the Internet. 😉

 

[ahens23]

The comments on this article are ridiculous (we'll be saving these ungrateful people's lives someday!). Anytime something like this happens, we should make it known to SDN so we can have a massive uprising and bombard the comment section with truth bombs 😉

Roll Tide to that brother.

 

[RollTide22]

Roll Tide to that brother.

👍 Roll Tide.

 

[AntiHouseMD]

The basic principle of internet comments: anyone who doesn't directly benefit you is a greedy idiot. I stopped reading them a long time ago.

 

[Koosalagoosagoo]

Dear god I read the comments before reading this thread...i love the internet

 

[RySerr21]

"I personally would love to see some sort of programs that would forgive Doctors and Nurses of their student loans if they agree to work for so many years in areas of this country that desperately could use a medical clinic."

I think I agree with this.

i'm pretty sure they do have programs like this. I'm not sure where that quote came from or what area you are talking about....but

http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/

I'm sure there are more, this is just the first thing that popped up on google.

 

[Slack3r]

I agree, people really have a bad idea of doctors with regards to their income. And most think that their primary care doctor is just in it for the money...If they only new that that physician is among the lowest paid of all doctors, maybe they'd chill. Lack of knowledge is a terrible thing.

If the "lowest paid" doctor is still making twice, maybe even three times as much as the average person, people are still going to be upset. People will pay $9 a beer while watching Michael Vick rake in $100 million, but god forbid you fork over $20 for a ****in co-pay. 😡

 

[Bacchus]

I posted this article on FB because I wanted to see what people had to say. This was just posted on the link:

Well, then they'll know what the middle class feels like: the class that was NOT born into it, has had to work two or more jobs to try and support their family and STILL are losing their homes because their jobs are shipped OVERSEAS.

I don't feel bad for Drs. going broke at all. They're living beyond their means, just like third-string NFL players crying because they can't support their family on 250k/year. Haha, really? Because people are running around Afghanistan getting shot at for 25k/year. Get the **** outta here.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

By going broke, you mean getting paid under 200k.
Time to switch to Culinary Arts 😀

 

[HoltMD]

By going broke, you mean getting paid under 200k.
Time to switch to Culinary Arts 😀

And flip burgers??? LOL A friend of mine graduated 2 years ago from Johnson and Wales. He is a fry cook. Sad but true. Lucky his parents are paying off his student loans.

 

[Narmerguy]

Generally good practice when reading any comments-enabled article on the Internet. 😉

The basic principle of internet comments: anyone who doesn't directly benefit you is a greedy idiot. I stopped reading them a long time ago.

+1. Too many people have computers with internet now.

 

[jsp132]

the comments make me cry and hurt my head

prime example "What's next, Movie stars going homeless? doctors make much more than they deserve. "

is this what the human race has come to?

uninformed idiots?

scary frankly

and doctors being accused of being greedy for saving lives and preventative care? compared to other idiots making millions of dollars for acting ?

 

[HoltMD]

Check out the comments on Yahoo:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/small-business-doctors-going-broke-101200127.html

Hilarious!

 

[BrandNewDay]

I just love how Snooki can not know how to exchange currency, but I likely won't make what she makes yearly in my entire life.

 

[flatearth22]

From the comments:

But think about this? Why is it that nurse practitioners, physician assistants, osteopaths, and medical technicians are now doing the exact jobs of an M.D. at hospitals and outpatient clinics?

It's because the prolonged years of medical training are unnecessary. Ask any MD if they actually use their organic chemistry or physical science knowledge in practice. The answer is no.

Everyone should realize that the current medical school process is OLD-SCHOOL. Yes, our medical education needs a tremendous revamp because so much of the stuff their teaching is useless.

For instance, the stethescope. Anyone realize that the stethescope is really a uniform decoration. Medicine these days no longer rely on stethescope findings, especially because of its subjectivity. Imaging gives us the definitive answer.

If you want to get into the entire spiel of how antiquated our medical education system is, bring it on. show less

 

[Charles Darwin]

From the comments:
img1
img2

HAHAHAHA!!!

I love the stethoscope comment.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

 

[Charles Darwin]

I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

How much debt do they incur from their training/education?

 

[typicalindian]

logan111, Yesterday 07:43 PM
Doctors u're the same as we're.So Get broke!!
You can say 'diet', but you need to go on one.

YEAH TAKE THAT ALL YOU DOCTORS!

This was my favorite comment

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

How much debt do they incur from their training/education?

Post-secondary education is free - but a 200K US education doesn't justify a career making 5 times the salary!

From an economic view point - do you want to be educated and practice in Deutschland or USA? My point exactly...

 

[Skinceutical]

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

So I'm assuming that when you're an attending in whatever specialty, you will be keeping only 50-55K of your annual salary (just enough for you to live on), and donating the rest to charitable causes.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

So I'm assuming that when you're an attending in whatever specialty, you will be keeping only 50-55K of your annual salary (just enough for you to live on), and donating the rest to charitable causes.

i also wouldn't mind netting 50-55k/yr when pretty much all other aspects of my life are state supported and nearly free.

more importantly, it's not a good idea to financially incentivize intelligent young people to stay away from medicine.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

So I'm assuming that when you're an attending in whatever specialty, you will be keeping only 50-55K of your annual salary (just enough for you to live on), and donating the rest to charitable causes.

I'm not saying I don't like money - more $$ the better of course.

However, my point is - if you truly want to become a physician and have such ethics - then you would easily ACCEPT a "living stipend" - not fighting the Battle of Berlin to keep your 300K paychecks!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm not saying I don't like money - more $$ the better of course.

However, my point is - if you truly want to become a physician and have such ethics - then you would easily ACCEPT a "living stipend" - not fighting the Battle of Berlin to keep your 300K paychecks!

you contradict your own statement

 

[notbobtrustme]

I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

German doctors also don't work 60+ hours a week ever in their training. For US doctors, working 60+ hours a week is the norm.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

i also wouldn't mind netting 50-55k/yr when pretty much all other aspects of my life are state supported and nearly free.

more importantly, it's not a good idea to financially incentivize intelligent young people to stay away from medicine.

Deutschland has a prosperous social programs - like maternal/paternity leaves, retirement, unemployment, and cheap healthcare - BUT the cost of living exceeds that of USA.

A 50K salary living in Berlin means you will probably rent a 1 bedroom studio in a good location, or a 2 bedroom apartment in a distant location. You will never own a car (but we do have a very advanced public transit), and will live very modestly.

Food, clothing, electronics, furniture...etc etc things we take for granted in USA are considered luxuries in Germany - it is very very EXPENSIVE. You only take someone to McDonald's on their birthday for example, laptops/computers are to be used for many years until they break down...etc etc.

 

[Koosalagoosagoo]

I just love how Snooki can not know how to exchange currency, but I likely won't make what she makes yearly in my entire life.

 

[deleted307836]

German doctors also don't work 60+ hours a week ever in their training. For US doctors, working 60+ hours a week is the norm.

+1. There was a thread a while ago comparing French and American physician income -- absent from the comparison was the fact that French physicians frequently work ~35 hours a week, are physicians six years out of high school, and incur no educational debt.

 

[Skinceutical]

you contradict your own statement

Exactly as expected.

I'm not saying I don't like money - more $$ the better of course.

However, my point is - if you truly want to become a physician and have such ethics - then you would easily ACCEPT a "living stipend" - not fighting the Battle of Berlin to keep your 300K paychecks!

If you're going to sit around a preach that a career in medicine should be seen as an undertaking similar to AmeriCorps or the Peace Corps, then you should be willing to put your money where your mouth is.

It's easy to launch into diatribes on altruism and motivations for a career in medicine when you're so far removed from the field. Get back to me when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and have spent a couple years in residency. I'd be curious to see how your opinions on physician compensation evolve.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

you contradict your own statement

No, I do not.

If I win the lottery, great! I'm happy to accept the $$.

If I don't, then I carry on doing whatever job my calling is.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

Exactly as expected.


If you're going to sit around a preach that a career in medicine should be seen as an undertaking similar to AmeriCorps or the Peace Corps, then you should be willing to put your money where your mouth is.

It's easy to launch into diatribes on altruism and motivations for a career in medicine when you're so far removed from the field. Get back to me when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and have spent a couple years in residency. I'd be curious to see how your opinions on physician compensation evolve.

Do the math - a 200K tuition debt does not call for a 6X salary for LIFE!

 

[gettheleadout]

I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

How much debt do they incur from their training/education?

Almost nothing.

http://americanviewsabroad.org/FAQs_about_healthcare_in_Germany_v4.pdf

Also, we're different countries with different systems, and who is anyone to say how much compensation any profession "should" be due for their service? In the United States, for almost anything besides medicine an independent service professional can offer services and has control over how much reimbursement they will accept as payment for rendering said services. In our system this is so far out of the norm that it only exists in smaller cash-only boutique-style practices.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Deutschland has a prosperous social programs - like maternal/paternity leaves, retirement, unemployment, and cheap healthcare - BUT the cost of living exceeds that of USA.

A 50K salary living in Berlin means you will probably rent a 1 bedroom studio in a good location, or a 2 bedroom apartment in a distant location. You will never own a car (but we do have a very advanced public transit), and will live very modestly.

Food, clothing, electronics, furniture...etc etc things we take for granted in USA are considered luxuries in Germany - it is very very EXPENSIVE. You only take someone to McDonald's on their birthday for example, laptops/computers are to be used for many years until they break down...etc etc.

Food and clothing are considered luxuries in Germany?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

No, I do not.

If I win the lottery, great! I'm happy to accept the $$.

If I don't, then I carry on doing whatever job my calling is.

then do as skin says and make sure you donate all the excess and live the austere life of your beloved fatherland.

Food and clothing are considered luxuries in Germany?

it also shows how far removed he is from actual financial responsibility for anything. electronics? furniture? this stuff is pennies compared to the things you'll have to pay for while raising a family, things that aren't covered by 'prosperous social programs'

 

[Skinceutical]

"It's not that German doctors live in poverty. The average German primary-care doctor makes around $123,000 a year before taxes...German doctors are the best-earning professional group in Germany."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036

 

[notbobtrustme]

Do the math - a 200K tuition debt does not call for a 6X salary for LIFE!

American doctors work anywhere from 1.5x to 2x as much as German doctors, not including vacation time. American doctors get 2-4 weeks, depending on the group involved, and most often to have buy that extra time (eg only 2 weeks is paid for), German doctors automatically have 6 weeks of vacation time.

Secondly, German doctors don't get paid "50k", they get paid around 100k for primary care, according to this piece on NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036). Considering they have zero debt burden, can practice far sooner and don't have to work insane hours like American doctors, that's an amazing deal.

 

[gettheleadout]

YEAH TAKE THAT ALL YOU DOCTORS!

This was my favorite comment

I totally posted that before. 🙁

Post-secondary education is free - but a 200K US education doesn't justify a career making 5 times the salary!

From an economic view point - do you want to be educated and practice in Deutschland or USA? My point exactly...

It doesn't? Wait, 5 times what? Doctor's definitely don't make a mil on average and comparing a $200k costly education here to a free one in Germany doens't lend itself to a proportion very well so...

Anyway, so we lower income for doctors in the US and keep the cost of med ed the same, who can afford to ever become a doctor? Only those born into wealth?

Do the math - a 200K tuition debt does not call for a 6X salary for LIFE!

Compound interest + reality of loan repayment + residency.

 

[shoehornlettuce]

Warning: Do not read the comments to avoid going insane.

This is a good article. I think that salaried physician positions in hospitals/larger care systems are part of the future of medicine -- the viability of private practices has decreased every year for at least a decade now. It's unfortunate if private practice is what you wanted but I don't think anything is stopping this train now.

I took a peak... and then read a few more hoping a larger sample size would restore my faith in humanity... it didn't... I am truly appalled by the ignorance and idiocy of so many people.

 

[iggs99988]

I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

good 1 brosef. I has 300k loanz but I can payz with 50k salary np.

 

[SSLiebstandarte]

Food and clothing are considered luxuries in Germany?

Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...

For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!