Doctor's Going Broke - CNN article

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Unfortunately a lot of people believe being a doctor is the road to status and riches.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. If you account for all the years you're not working full-time and you factor in the cost of medical school it is not a great investment.

Also account for the fact that you are living in a bubble and not getting real world experience.

Being a doctor should be about pursuing your passion... helping people. That's what it is about.
 
I agree that all of the evidence is pointing to the road ahead being anything but easy for physicians, and it is clear that you should not go into medicine unless you are truly interested in it - not to get rich. The question remains, though - will it be difficult to even have a decent life as a physician? I absolutely do not want an Audi, I don't want a big house, I don't want a snappy wardrobe - but I do want to be financially secure after investing the time, money and energy needed to become a practicing physician.

Will this be very difficult 8 years from now?
 
Being a doctor should be about pursuing your passion... helping people. That's what it is about.

I've heard this so many times that it seems to possess no meaning. What, really, does this mean?

And is it wrong to want more than simply this? I work as a teacher, and I am helping people every day. But I want more: I want to understand and work more closely with the processes of health and human biology; I want to use my knowledge to help improve human life. And I also want to be rewarded financially for this work.

In discussions of becoming a physician, I so frequently see this binary division- aggrandized accusations of people becoming doctors purely for "status and money," and the other group - "good docs," people going into medicine for "pure" (but never exactly specified) motivations.

Group #1 needs to GTFO, and god bless Group #2. But I don't think anyone really is purely in one group or the other. So what is left in the future of medicine for people like us?
 
If you are going to rely on the cardiologist or radiologist to diagnose every patient, and the diagnosis more or less dictates the treatment, what value added is there to primary care? Part if being a doctor is being able to examine a patient and through history and physical exam come up with a pretty comprehensive but short list of differential diagnosis. You should be able to accurately come up with a differential for most patients with nothing more than your eyes, ears, nose and fingers. And THEN start using tests to narrow the differential. Not just blindly send every patient for an EKG and CT and sip your coffee while you wait for the specialists to tell you what is wrong with your patient. There's nothing wrong with getting a test to prove a diagnosis or to rule out something in your differential. There is a big problem with relying on this in lieu of coming up with a differential.

You really don't have much experience being a primary care doctor, I see. Otherwise you would have a more accurate idea of what a PCP does. You may not have meant it, but your post is really pretty insulting.

And I WISH I had time to sip coffee while waiting for specialists. As it is, while seeing patients in our FP clinic, I barely have time to go to the bathroom between patients. 🙄
 
Please elaborate. Are there specific instances you have observed where a physician over-treated a patient for personal financial gain?

I can give you anecdotal evidence. A professor of mine in undergrad told us about how he hurt his arm in a farm accident. He went to a hospital which paid it's doctors in a fee for service manner and the orthopedic surgeon tried to schedule a surgery right away. A bit turned off by the way that surgeon acted, he went to get a second opinion at a nearby university hospital in which doctors are salaried. The orthopedic surgeon there told him he could get the surgery, but that he would invariably recover as well by just resting it. His arm is more/less fine now, without the surgery.

This doesn't exactly fit what I'm saying, but I view this as an abuse: at my mother and grandmother's office, there is a TV in the small waiting room which blasts (loudly because many of her patients are elderly) an infomercial, in loop, for a cosmetic fat removal procedure she does.

One of my GF's good friends is an attending pediatrician at a top 10 university where all doctors are salaried, and she's observed differences in the way her fellow docs treat vs. those at another excellent hospital in which doctors are paid in a fee for service manner. One pediatrician she knows for instance performs tonsillectomies whenever possible, and strongly encourages his patients to have them. Obviously this is hearsay, but she was saying that may of the procedures this doctor performs are unnecessary, however because the reimbursements are so generous, he tries to do as many as possible.

Another story I heard of was about a colleague of my girlfriend's ex, a gastroenterologist, who basically mastered a single procedure (not sure what it was, maybe colonoscopy), because even though he was salaried, if he hit his quota for this procedure, he would get very sizable bonuses for each subsequent procedure. Accoording to her he avoids seeing patients unless he can do said procedure.

The radio show This American Life also had a great segment on the looming health crisis, and in discussing over treatment, they mentioned the preferential use of a certain new metal device for spinal surgery, over the use of the former standard, which used parts from a pig (I don't remember the exact procedure). This metal device cost far more, and reimbursed better, and unsurprisingly, even though it did not show any greater efficacy, it was preferentially used by surgeons. It also discussed research that showed that putting more doctors in a given area didn't force down costs because of increased competition, but rather doctors found ways to get more services out of the fewer patients they had to maintain their profits.

There's more, but you get the point.

In all honesty, this shouldn't be a shock. I would imagine most doctors wouldn't look at their patients as meat-bags full of cash, however there are some who do, and there are many others who might be very tempted to perform a procedure that while not necessary, might help a patient, and will also reimburse quite well. The fee for service system is set up for abuse, not only because of the massive conflict of interest, but because of the strong trust between the doctor patient relationship. It is very easy, when it comes to personal health, and more so for the health of loved ones, to get people to agree to anything.

I don't understand what the problem is here.

Cardiac auscultation is an inexact, highly observer-dependent science. There's no dearth of studies out there that have shown that even experienced cardiologists (who have been extensively taught how to "distinguish murmurs and diagnose with the scope") have difficulty picking up mild-moderate pathology on auscultation alone. If there's appropriate clinical suspicion, then what's wrong with sending a patient for a safe, non-invasive, highly accurate diagnostic test?

Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but what I was getting at is the use of expensive diagnostic tests in a situation where a well trained and versed physician could rule out pathologies without their use. This reliance on good, but expensive, diagnostic tests make for physicians who are less able to avoid using them. I'm sure for instance that a doctor who is skilled in auscultation will be more able to distinguish innocent murmurs and avoid sending a patient to get an echo.

I also don't mean to imply that the problem is only from the physician end. It's a systemic problem, with patients being equally responsible for the massive problems there are in healthcare.
 
I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the guy that's touting the German healthcare system has the Gestapo 'SS' in his screen name?

I wouldn't mind working as a doctor for 50-55K a year if I didn't have to pay six times that in loans without calculated interest.
 
I'm not saying I don't like money - more $$ the better of course.

However, my point is - if you truly want to become a physician and have such ethics - then you would easily ACCEPT a "living stipend" - not fighting the Battle of Berlin to keep your 300K paychecks!
SSLieb: The problem is greed, not wealth. Look, the more money you have (if you have a good heart), the better you will be able to help others. Think about it; you cannot lift someone up if you are below them. Or as Abraham Lincoln is quoted as saying:

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

You have to understand that people with good hearts WILL turn down the profession if they do not feel they will be able to sustain themselves, their families, and their practices without running themselves into the ground. There are many things that need reform, but I think the problem is deeper-rooted than just money.
 
Jesus guys, stop feeding the troll. SSLiebstandarte: if I had a troll award to give you, you'd get it.
 
It's going to be 37 and partly cloudy in Chicago tomorrow. Boston has a high of 41 tomorrow and will mostly sunny. Detroit has a low of 29 😱 and there is a good chance of thunderstorms. Also, tomorrow at 7:30 GM is unveiling the Cadillac ATS at the Detroit Auto Show. It is sure to be a 3 series F30 killer. Houston beat beat Cincy today and it wasn't even close. Tebow and Roethlisberger go at it tomorrow. The Heat game is just about to start right now :highfive:
 
One of my GF's good friends is an attending pediatrician at a top 10 university where all doctors are salaried, and she's observed differences in the way her fellow docs treat vs. those at another excellent hospital in which doctors are paid in a fee for service manner. One pediatrician she knows for instance performs tonsillectomies whenever possible, and strongly encourages his patients to have them.
You kinda lost your credibility with this example.

Barack Obama made this exact claim, almost verbatim, during the debate leading up to his healthcare reform plan. He was subsequently lambasted in the medical world, because pediatricians do not perform tonsillectomies, and do not receive kickbacks from the ENTs for the referrals. Moreover, the number of tonsillectomies performed per year has actually dramatically declined over the past 30 years.

Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but what I was getting at is the use of expensive diagnostic tests in a situation where a well trained and versed physician could rule out pathologies without their use.
I love this hoopla about the dying art of the physical exam. The fact of the matter is that many of our physical diagnosis skills are based on little more than medical tradition, and are incredibly insensitive, even in the hands of "well trained and versed physicians." Exclusive reliance upon them would result in countless missed diagnoses.

I highly recommend that every med student and resident take a look at this book at some point:
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Based-Physical-Diagnosis-Steven-McGee/dp/1416028986
 
I think the problem is that back in the day, doctors were able to come up with diagnosis that were generally pretty accurate without sending patients through a barrage of tests.
I have a hard time believing that they weren't missing diagnoses left and right.

Yes, maybe 60 years ago a GP could diagnose a lobar pneumonia based on the presence of fremitus, egophony, whispered pectoriloquy, the Hoffman-Petersen-Montgomery-Creeley-Jackson-Smith-Anderson-Cooper sign, but there's no way they were catching that incidental lung cancer without a CXR.

Today, both because of convenience, loss of these skills, and defensive medicine, we are losing (or perhaps have lost) this skill set and simply sending patients off for studies. An NP can send a patient off for studies just as effectively as a doctor. Heck, this plays right into the hands of folks who suggest medicine just become a set of algorithms for computers like Watson to follow. If you are going to rely on the cardiologist or radiologist to diagnose every patient, and the diagnosis more or less dictates the treatment, what value added is there to primary care? Part if being a doctor is being able to examine a patient and through history and physical exam come up with a pretty comprehensive but short list of differential diagnosis. You should be able to accurately come up with a differential for most patients with nothing more than your eyes, ears, nose and fingers. And THEN start using tests to narrow the differential. Not just blindly send every patient for an EKG and CT and sip your coffee while you wait for the specialists to tell you what is wrong with your patient. There's nothing wrong with getting a test to prove a diagnosis or to rule out something in your differential. There is a big problem with relying on this in lieu of coming up with a differential.
I never advocated blindly ordering diagnostic tests. Nor am I calling the physical exam entirely useless. Heck, I'm in a field where the overwhelming majority of the diagnoses I make are based on detailed physical exams alone.

But that doesn't change the fact that may of many of our much touted historical physical diagnosis skills (like cardiac auscultation) were highly insensitive, and are not a replacement for our highly accurate (albeit more expensive) diagnostic tests. For instance, if a 70 year old patient were to walk in with progressive SOB, angina, and LE edema, I honestly don't care if even the oldest, curmudgeonliest physical diagnostician in the hospital (I think every med school/academic medical center has one of these guys) says that the patient doesn't have an S3 or an S4. The patient needs, and will get, an echo regardless.
 
You really don't have much experience being a primary care doctor, I see. Otherwise you would have a more accurate idea of what a PCP does. You may not have meant it, but your post is really pretty insulting.

And I WISH I had time to sip coffee while waiting for specialists. As it is, while seeing patients in our FP clinic, I barely have time to go to the bathroom between patients. 🙄

I think you misread or misconstrued my post. I wasn't implying that primary care docs sit around doing nothing. In fact my post said nothing of the sort. The sentence you bolded didn't purport to say what primary care doctors actualy do. It clearly stated this is NOT what their role should be. I was suggesting that the role of doctoring is to come up with a differential and THEN use tests to narrow that differential, not the other way round. I don't think there are a lot of people who would dispute this. At any rate I apologize if you were somehow insulted by my post, but i think if you reread it you will see that it didn't actually even say what you are suggesting.
 
You kinda lost your credibility with this example.

Barack Obama made this exact claim, almost verbatim, during the debate leading up to his healthcare reform plan. He was subsequently lambasted in the medical world, because pediatricians do not perform tonsillectomies, and do not receive kickbacks from the ENTs for the referrals. Moreover, the number of tonsillectomies performed per year has actually dramatically declined over the past 30 years.

😀 Don't hate on me too much, I'm on repeating the stories she told me herself. Perhaps my memory added details, or maybe she's full of crap. I still don't doubt that there is "malicious" over treatment, perhaps it just is a bit overblown, which would be nice.

I love this hoopla about the dying art of the physical exam. The fact of the matter is that many of our physical diagnosis skills are based on little more than medical tradition, and are incredibly insensitive, even in the hands of "well trained and versed physicians." Exclusive reliance upon them would result in countless missed diagnoses.

I highly recommend that every med student and resident take a look at this book at some point:
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Based-Physical-Diagnosis-Steven-McGee/dp/1416028986

Thanks for the link. I am not disputing that there something like an MRI, or an echo, are undoubtedly better diagnostic tools than a physical exam, or other less sensitive tests; I'm only pointing out that our current medical system is unsustainable. I'm also not saying we should exclusively use physical exams, and throw out expensive diagnostic tests. Unless echos and MRIs themselves can be brought down very significantly in costs, I imagine that in the future, they will made less accessible in a more frugal healthcare system.

This article well makes my point
http://171.66.125.180/content/49/2/163.full.pdf

It does also interestingly point out that perhaps, if echo's are made more accessible in primary care, that they could replace auscultation, which would be fine so long as it wasn't cost prohibitive.
 
I think that clinical decision making has lost part of its art - a lot of it now depends on diagnostics tests that are expensive.

I mean - do you really need to get a CT r/o PE on patients who come in with what any other physician would call decompensated HF?
 
Medicare is absolutely necessary, as private insurance for older people, especially with regard to those with chronic conditions, is fairly unaffordable. As people near retirement, their income drops and they have to rely more on SS/retirement savings which are prone to fluctuations based on the market. This is at a time when their medical expenses will rise. What we need is sensible medicare reform, involving means-testing, reformation of the disbursement schedule, etc etc. We shouldn't be so blinded by greed that a substantial portion of the population suffers greatly for it. Healthcare is one product that everyone will need. This isn't toothpaste or an Xbox. We are talking about people's quality and quantity of life. That should remain at the forefront of any talk of healthcare reform.

Doctors will always be well compensated, however, we are witnessing the demise of private practice as it currently stands.

Your statement is an assumption unsubstantiated by anything. In a lot of places of the world, especially country with government health care systems, physicians are not well compensated.

Regarding Medicare, as you expand Medicare to include more people, your two options are either 1. Increase government spending in healthcare dramatically 2. Cut reimbursements to physicians dramatically. Option 1 is hardly an option at all given the 15 trillion dollar national debt. So effectively, by expanding Medicare you are insuring that physician compensation will be decreased dramatically.

Medicare payments are already very low. Decrease them further and doctors may just not be able to take Medicare patients and may not be able to keep their practice afloat. So by trying to improve healthcare access you've screwed over doctors AND made it harder for patients to find a doctor.

Sometimes, less is more. That is a lesson lost on a lot of people who just want a massive new government program to solve every little thing they can think of.
 
I can give you anecdotal evidence. A professor of mine in undergrad told us about how he hurt his arm in a farm accident. He went to a hospital which paid it's doctors in a fee for service manner and the orthopedic surgeon tried to schedule a surgery right away. A bit turned off by the way that surgeon acted, he went to get a second opinion at a nearby university hospital in which doctors are salaried. The orthopedic surgeon there told him he could get the surgery, but that he would invariably recover as well by just resting it. His arm is more/less fine now, without the surgery.

This doesn't exactly fit what I'm saying, but I view this as an abuse: at my mother and grandmother's office, there is a TV in the small waiting room which blasts (loudly because many of her patients are elderly) an infomercial, in loop, for a cosmetic fat removal procedure she does.

One of my GF's good friends is an attending pediatrician at a top 10 university where all doctors are salaried, and she's observed differences in the way her fellow docs treat vs. those at another excellent hospital in which doctors are paid in a fee for service manner. One pediatrician she knows for instance performs tonsillectomies whenever possible, and strongly encourages his patients to have them. Obviously this is hearsay, but she was saying that may of the procedures this doctor performs are unnecessary, however because the reimbursements are so generous, he tries to do as many as possible.

Another story I heard of was about a colleague of my girlfriend's ex, a gastroenterologist, who basically mastered a single procedure (not sure what it was, maybe colonoscopy), because even though he was salaried, if he hit his quota for this procedure, he would get very sizable bonuses for each subsequent procedure. Accoording to her he avoids seeing patients unless he can do said procedure.

The radio show This American Life also had a great segment on the looming health crisis, and in discussing over treatment, they mentioned the preferential use of a certain new metal device for spinal surgery, over the use of the former standard, which used parts from a pig (I don't remember the exact procedure). This metal device cost far more, and reimbursed better, and unsurprisingly, even though it did not show any greater efficacy, it was preferentially used by surgeons. It also discussed research that showed that putting more doctors in a given area didn't force down costs because of increased competition, but rather doctors found ways to get more services out of the fewer patients they had to maintain their profits.

There's more, but you get the point.

In all honesty, this shouldn't be a shock. I would imagine most doctors wouldn't look at their patients as meat-bags full of cash, however there are some who do, and there are many others who might be very tempted to perform a procedure that while not necessary, might help a patient, and will also reimburse quite well. The fee for service system is set up for abuse, not only because of the massive conflict of interest, but because of the strong trust between the doctor patient relationship. It is very easy, when it comes to personal health, and more so for the health of loved ones, to get people to agree to anything.



Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but what I was getting at is the use of expensive diagnostic tests in a situation where a well trained and versed physician could rule out pathologies without their use. This reliance on good, but expensive, diagnostic tests make for physicians who are less able to avoid using them. I'm sure for instance that a doctor who is skilled in auscultation will be more able to distinguish innocent murmurs and avoid sending a patient to get an echo.

I also don't mean to imply that the problem is only from the physician end. It's a systemic problem, with patients being equally responsible for the massive problems there are in healthcare.

Well said Misha, well said.

Let me give another example of greedy physician and dentist (oral surgeons & anesthesiologists).

In the divided Post-WWII Germany, it was extremely common for the West Germans (following the USA model) to proactively take out their wisdom teeth or there will be "impending doom" as explained by their dentist. A lot of surgery involved an anesthesiologists putting the patient to sleep because it was necessary for such an invasive procedure.

However, in the East Germans its virtually unheard of for people to proactively take out their wisdom teeth. Only a very small fraction of the population actually pulls out their teeth, only when it was causing problems. Vast majority of people lives with their impacted wisdom teeth without a problem for their entire lives.

So are you saying East Germans and West Germans, in such short 40 year existence have somehow became so genetically different that the West Germans MUST have their wisdom teeth taken out or face impending doom?

My point exactly.
 
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the guy that's touting the German healthcare system has the Gestapo 'SS' in his screen name?

I wouldn't mind working as a doctor for 50-55K a year if I didn't have to pay six times that in loans without calculated interest.


The SS had some of the best medics and army doctors in the world. When the Soviets reached the river Ode, Hitler ordered whatever remaining physicians and medics to fall back to the Fortress Berlin. The SS and Wehrmacht physicians, in the small numbers remaining, were sent to the flak towers to treat both military and civilian casualties.

My grandfather tells me vividly the day Soviets launched a 3000 artillery barrage onto the city center, each physician had to assess over 100 casualties a MINUTE and had to decide which case can be savaged and which cases are hopeless (and thus left to die with no treatment). Each physician worked at least 48 hours straight without food or water to save, amputate, and operate as many people as they could.

During the final days of WWII, my grandfather, entrenched in the Reich Chancellery, was hit by shrapnels from Soviet Artillery. Rushed to the nearby Flak Tower, a fellow SS physician GAVE HIS OWN BLOOD to my grandfather to save his life. You tell me whether or not any American doctor would give up his own life, LET ALONE PAYCHECK, to save his patients lives!
 
My grandfather tells me vividly the day Soviets launched a 3000 artillery barrage onto the city center, each physician had to assess over 100 casualties a MINUTE and had to decide which case can be savaged and which cases are hopeless (and thus left to die with no treatment). Each physician worked at least 48 hours straight without food or water to save, amputate, and operate as many people as they could.

100 casualties a minute... hmm doesnt that seem a little unrealistic?
 
The SS had some of the best medics and army doctors in the world. When the Soviets reached the river Ode, Hitler ordered whatever remaining physicians and medics to fall back to the Fortress Berlin. The SS and Wehrmacht physicians, in the small numbers remaining, were sent to the flak towers to treat both military and civilian casualties.

My grandfather tells me vividly the day Soviets launched a 3000 artillery barrage onto the city center, each physician had to assess over 100 casualties a MINUTE and had to decide which case can be savaged and which cases are hopeless (and thus left to die with no treatment). Each physician worked at least 48 hours straight without food or water to save, amputate, and operate as many people as they could.

During the final days of WWII, my grandfather, entrenched in the Reich Chancellery, was hit by shrapnels from Soviet Artillery. Rushed to the nearby Flak Tower, a fellow SS physician GAVE HIS OWN BLOOD to my grandfather to save his life. You tell me whether or not any American doctor would give up his own life, LET ALONE PAYCHECK, to save his patients lives!

Since we're using uncorroborated anecdotes to justify our positions, the answer to your question is "yes."
 
100 casualties a minute... hmm doesnt that seem a little unrealistic?

I read this and laughed.

The Eastern Front was that intense. The Battle of Kursk, alone, could have qualified as it's own war.
 
100 casualties a minute... hmm doesnt that seem a little unrealistic?

Berlin was made into a FORTRESS - and Zhukov and Konev's 2 armies has surrounded the entire city in 2 large flanking moves so no civilians/soldiers can escape.

The Soviets used 1000s of long and medium artillery, over 500 heavy bombers, over 1000 Il-2 attack aircrafts, and the famous Katyusha rockets to bombard the heavily populated city in the opening days of the Berlin strategic offensive.

The civilians and the military were moved in 2 areas - underground bunkers and the flak towers. When the Red army moved closer into the city, it was ordered that the underground bunkers be FLOODED to drown any soviet troops - thus killing thousands of civilians and german soldiers already in there.

After this flooding, remaining troops (SS, Wehrmacht, Volsturmm) and rest of 10,000s civilians all had to escape out of the ruin into the flak towers. There was a brief ceasefire as Zhukov and Weidling & Keitel met to discuss surrender terms. The meeting was in vain, and the rest of the Red Army opened fire with everything they had into a concentrated small area full of soldiers and civilians on the move around the Reich Chancellery.

The flak tower my grandfather was rushed into had only 3 physicians (2 wehrmacht, 1 SS). Thousands of wounded were sent into the entrance in a short period of time. The physician could do no more than just check the pulse, assess the wound, and check the treatment supplies before deciding whether he/she should be treated or left to die. My grandfather was hit by shrapnel and was losing blood, but his vital organs were not penetrated, so the SS physician admitted him and gave his own blood (once he knew the blood type). The situation was so dire, that the physician were even trying to extract blood from the DEAD or critically injured in order to save treatable victims.
 
Berlin was made into a FORTRESS - and Zhukov and Konev's 2 armies has surrounded the entire city in 2 large flanking moves so no civilians/soldiers can escape.

The Soviets used 1000s of long and medium artillery, over 500 heavy bombers, over 1000 Il-2 attack aircrafts, and the famous Katyusha rockets to bombard the heavily populated city in the opening days of the Berlin strategic offensive.

The civilians and the military were moved in 2 areas - underground bunkers and the flak towers. When the Red army moved closer into the city, it was ordered that the underground bunkers be FLOODED to drown any soviet troops - thus killing thousands of civilians and german soldiers already in there.

After this flooding, remaining troops (SS, Wehrmacht, Volsturmm) and rest of 10,000s civilians all had to escape out of the ruin into the flak towers. There was a brief ceasefire as Zhukov and Weidling & Keitel met to discuss surrender terms. The meeting was in vain, and the rest of the Red Army opened fire with everything they had into a concentrated small area full of soldiers and civilians on the move around the Reich Chancellery.

The flak tower my grandfather was rushed into had only 3 physicians (2 wehrmacht, 1 SS). Thousands of wounded were sent into the entrance in a short period of time. The physician could do no more than just check the pulse, assess the wound, and check the treatment supplies before deciding whether he/she should be treated or left to die. My grandfather was hit by shrapnel and was losing blood, but his vital organs were not penetrated, so the SS physician admitted him and gave his own blood (once he knew the blood type). The situation was so dire, that the physician were even trying to extract blood from the DEAD or critically injured in order to save treatable victims.

go away
 
I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

Cause you're a raging phaggot who doesn't have a clue how north american people innately operate. People here love money, especialy if they're putting in so much into it.

Lower the salaries to 60-70k and you'll end up with the sh*ttiest doctors you could imagine. Most smart people who would have made great doctors will go into a business field and take their chances... either make 40-50k or make 10x that. Why would they go into medicine, where they invest away their 20s only to recieve compensation that's far far worse than a kick in the nuts by a juiced up powerlifter that squats 800 pounds.
 
Unfortunately a lot of people believe being a doctor is the road to status and riches.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. If you account for all the years you're not working full-time and you factor in the cost of medical school it is not a great investment.

Also account for the fact that you are living in a bubble and not getting real world experience.

Being a doctor should be about pursuing your passion... helping people. That's what it is about.
The 4 doctors in my family are actually quite rich. Using hefty salaries along with nice investments, they now have tons of $$$.
As for a general perspective, for USA you may be somewhat correct in some cases. Here in Canada... low tuition/low insurance/ makes being a doctor a very good deal.

But I think you're forgetting that:

1) Most docs who are "broke" didn't know how to invest/save from day 1, and just threw away all their money right away at whatever they wanted

2) the job economy sucks ***** and no career is doing well right now. You really think spending 6-7 years in school + 2 years of a sh*tty job only to get an MBA, and then to make 80k per year is a good deal vs. spending that much time becoming a doctor? srs brah?
 
Its interesting that this article used Oncology (300k salary) and Cardiology (400k salary) as examples. If anyone is going broke in medicine its the pedriatricians, endocrinologists, family docs, and Ob/ gyns.
 
Cause you're a raging phaggot who doesn't have a clue how north american people innately operate. People here love money, especialy if they're putting in so much into it.

Lower the salaries to 60-70k and you'll end up with the sh*ttiest doctors you could imagine. Most smart people who would have made great doctors will go into a business field and take their chances... either make 40-50k or make 10x that. Why would they go into medicine, where they invest away their 20s only to recieve compensation that's far far worse than a kick in the nuts by a juiced up powerlifter that squats 800 pounds.

1. He's trolling, move on.
2. use a gay slur like that again and I will get you banned from this site.
 
Its interesting that this article used Oncology (300k salary) and Cardiology (400k salary) as examples. If anyone is going broke in medicine its the pedriatricians, endocrinologists, family docs, and Ob/ gyns.
How do family docs make so little in the U.S compared to Canada? Here if you're pretty good, you can definitely make 300k no problem, and lots make 400k just beause they can see 40 patients a day... (+/- a few). Charging each patient an average of 35-40 dollars per visit (regular visit being 32$), hell you can make 500k if you work MORE than regular 40 hour weeks (let alone 60ish hours for some specialties)... How do the american counter parts get screwed so far?
 
1. He's trolling, move on.
2. use a gay slur like that again and I will get you banned from this site.
online status: anti-gay joke tough guy
real life status: wimpy skinny nerd
 
Real life: gay.

If you think I'm a wimpy nerd come try me
oh nozz we got an SDNer e-tough guy.

220 pound bodybuilder, come at me brah. u mirin or u jelly?
 
Post-secondary education is free - but a 200K US education doesn't justify a career making 5 times the salary!

From an economic view point - do you want to be educated and practice in Deutschland or USA? My point exactly...

Germans get, what, probably three weeks or a month of paid vacation each year. And they don't have to bulls**t around and schedule patients for three visits when they really only need one, just so that they can get reimbursed a decent amount by the insurance companies. Or fill out false claim codes, just so that they can get their patients what they actually need and not get denied by the bean-counter in charge of making sure that the CEO can afford a new superyacht.

How horrible. And you know what, because Germany hasn't been subject to a decades-long propaganda campaign by the insurance companies, they probably don't have to read ridiculous comments like the ones for this article.

They just have to listen to stories about the compassionate doctors of the Waffen-SS Mengele Brigade... :laugh:
 
I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ankers-defy-fury-pocket-billions-bonuses.html
Salaries of physicians are peanuts compared to bonuses of bankers, so stop whining...I do hope salaries for American doctors exceeds the $1M bar in the future to be able to compete with the executives pay...
 
1. He's trolling, move on.
2. use a gay slur like that again and I will get you banned from this site.

online status: anti-gay joke tough guy
real life status: wimpy skinny nerd

I think now would be a good time to remind everyone that, while we encourage open debate on SDN, we request that you avoid using slang terms that negatively refer to someone's ethnicity, race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Furthermore, we ask that you avoid personal insults in the forums. Either put each other on ignore, or take it to PMs, but take it out of the thread.

Finally, keep things on topic.

Thanks.
 
We should stop looking at the salaries for a second. The medical school debt is the real problem. There should be some sort of federal forgiveness or commitment program for future and present physicians, where all their education debt is sealed and paid for, provided they commit to be a physician for a certain amount of time, while still getting a regular salary. These are academically qualified and superior individuals who commit more than 10 years of their life learning for the sole reason of trying to make the world a healthier place, yet they have to carry this burden of debt.

Physicians save lives. Why don't we save theirs?
 
How do family docs make so little in the U.S compared to Canada? Here if you're pretty good, you can definitely make 300k no problem, and lots make 400k just beause they can see 40 patients a day... (+/- a few). Charging each patient an average of 35-40 dollars per visit (regular visit being 32$), hell you can make 500k if you work MORE than regular 40 hour weeks (let alone 60ish hours for some specialties)... How do the american counter parts get screwed so far?
What are you talking about? The vast majority of family docs in Canada do not make $300k "no problem". Have you checked out one of the province's blue books? Many are making much less than that and that is BEFORE overhead at 40% and income tax and malpractice insurance costs. The state of primary care in Canada isn't all butterflies and rainbows as you have so misleadingly illustrated. It is also rife with its own problems.
 
I have a hard time believing that they weren't missing diagnoses left and right.

Yes, maybe 60 years ago a GP could diagnose a lobar pneumonia based on the presence of fremitus, egophony, whispered pectoriloquy, the Hoffman-Petersen-Montgomery-Creeley-Jackson-Smith-Anderson-Cooper sign, but there's no way they were catching that incidental lung cancer without a CXR.

Is that a real thing lol? :wow:
 
So I'm assuming that when you're an attending in whatever specialty, you will be keeping only 50-55K of your annual salary (just enough for you to live on), and donating the rest to charitable causes.

Some of the docs in the original cnn article would have been happy to make that amount (at least for a yr or 2). The main doc in the article was making $0 and actually had to take $ from his savings to keep the practice afloat.
 
This thread is a giant train wreck but I wanted to contribute something.

I am interested in primary care and geriatrics, and this article is scary. Essentially, every method of paying doctors is cutting back reimbursement rates, and will continue cutting back reimbursement rates in the future. I understand that this is not new, but I think the consequences are starting to finally sink in to the public brain. When citing challenges in becoming a doctor, many folks focus on declining income of the doctor and crippling student loan debt. This article is pointing out that there are doctors going entirely broke personally and professionally because their practices are failing to meet expenses due to low reimbursement rates.

From a business perspective, a 30% cut in reimbursement rates is downright catastrophic. New doctors with boatloads of debt are not going open their own practices if they can't say afloat, and the people that are going to suffer is everyone! All those Americans who are aging and rely on social entitlement programs to pay physicians enough to take care of them.
 
Some of the docs in the original cnn article would have been happy to make that amount (at least for a yr or 2). The main doc in the article was making $0 and actually had to take $ from his savings to keep the practice afloat.

Agreed. In my prior career I've worked with a few businesses in downward spirals, and folks often try to keep the businesses float by throwing money in for months to years in hopes a bit more time keeps things going until they get a nice reimbursement check in. Some of the guys in the article are not making their payroll and going broke fast as is -- not clear they can survive a prolonged economic downturn or another hit to receivables. Not everyone is in as bad a hole, but a few years ago these folks wouldn't have been either. The times they are a changin.
 
This thread is a giant train wreck but I wanted to contribute something.

I am interested in primary care and geriatrics, and this article is scary. Essentially, every method of paying doctors is cutting back reimbursement rates, and will continue cutting back reimbursement rates in the future. I understand that this is not new, but I think the consequences are starting to finally sink in to the public brain. When citing challenges in becoming a doctor, many folks focus on declining income of the doctor and crippling student loan debt. This article is pointing out that there are doctors going entirely broke personally and professionally because their practices are failing to meet expenses due to low reimbursement rates.

From a business perspective, a 30% cut in reimbursement rates is downright catastrophic. New doctors with boatloads of debt are not going open their own practices if they can't say afloat, and the people that are going to suffer is everyone! All those Americans who are aging and rely on social entitlement programs to pay physicians enough to take care of them.

Agreed. Reimbursements have been declining for a while, but the safety valve for a while has been that doctors could simply work more hours and make up the difference. But there is a limit on this, and reimbursements have now surpassed this. Add to this a generally bad economy, and some practices are failing that would have been viable just a few years ago. I think healthcare is still a bit more recession proof than many other segments of the economy, but what this article should do is blunt some of the expectations of guaranteed high incomes and career stability some premeds are living under.
 
Agreed. Reimbursements have been declining for a while, but the safety valve for a while has been that doctors could simply work more hours and make up the difference. But there is a limit on this, and reimbursements have now surpassed this. Add to this a generally bad economy, and some practices are failing that would have been viable just a few years ago. I think healthcare is still a bit more recession proof than many other segments of the economy, but what this article should do is blunt some of the expectations of guaranteed high incomes and career stability some premeds are living under.

But isn't this somewhat unique to private practices? This seems to be just hurrying along the transition from individually owned private practices to larger group owned/hospital based practices. I've met plenty of physicians that operate in a larger group environment and still seem to do just fine.

I'm not sure that the latter are necessarily worse than the former.
 
But isn't this somewhat unique to private practices? This seems to be just hurrying along the transition from individually owned private practices to larger group owned/hospital based practices. I've met plenty of physicians that operate in a larger group environment and still seem to do just fine.

I'm not sure that the latter are necessarily worse than the former.

Perhaps that's the intention?

And the Nazi guy has been the first person I've ever added to my Ignore List. I encourage everyone else to do the same! 👍
 
The main culprit in the article is Medicare. If the government doesn't want to pay, them maybe doctors should stop taking medicare patients. If enough doctors do that, the government will be forced to make medicare more attractive.

Unfortunately, medicine's focus is more and more on business rather than patient care. And doctors who do not have their business side covered and focuses mainly on patient care will be the ones not practicing.
 
But isn't this somewhat unique to private practices? This seems to be just hurrying along the transition from individually owned private practices to larger group owned/hospital based practices. I've met plenty of physicians that operate in a larger group environment and still seem to do just fine.

I'm not sure that the latter are necessarily worse than the former.

No, The issues are not unique to private practices. The impact just hits them first. Hospital practices are tightening their belts and increasing requirements for number of cases/patients their employees need to see, as we speak. They too live and die by reimbursements, they are just able to weather the storm a bit longer.
 
I hope some of you realize what other physicians do like the ones in my grandfather's situation - compared to American ones thinking they have it bad with a little cut in reimbursement.
 
Berlin was made into a FORTRESS - and Zhukov and Konev's 2 armies has surrounded the entire city in 2 large flanking moves so no civilians/soldiers can escape.

The Soviets used 1000s of long and medium artillery, over 500 heavy bombers, over 1000 Il-2 attack aircrafts, and the famous Katyusha rockets to bombard the heavily populated city in the opening days of the Berlin strategic offensive.

The civilians and the military were moved in 2 areas - underground bunkers and the flak towers. When the Red army moved closer into the city, it was ordered that the underground bunkers be FLOODED to drown any soviet troops - thus killing thousands of civilians and german soldiers already in there.

After this flooding, remaining troops (SS, Wehrmacht, Volsturmm) and rest of 10,000s civilians all had to escape out of the ruin into the flak towers. There was a brief ceasefire as Zhukov and Weidling & Keitel met to discuss surrender terms. The meeting was in vain, and the rest of the Red Army opened fire with everything they had into a concentrated small area full of soldiers and civilians on the move around the Reich Chancellery.

The flak tower my grandfather was rushed into had only 3 physicians (2 wehrmacht, 1 SS). Thousands of wounded were sent into the entrance in a short period of time. The physician could do no more than just check the pulse, assess the wound, and check the treatment supplies before deciding whether he/she should be treated or left to die. My grandfather was hit by shrapnel and was losing blood, but his vital organs were not penetrated, so the SS physician admitted him and gave his own blood (once he knew the blood type). The situation was so dire, that the physician were even trying to extract blood from the DEAD or critically injured in order to save treatable victims.


For those of you calling me a troll or thinks my account is "uncorroborated" here is a link for you to educate yourself with -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/berlin_01.shtml
 
Certainly not taking sides in you guys' little spat... but just to point out for posterity purposes:::

Weighing 220 pounds and being a bodybuilder have very little, if anything, to do with A) defending oneself in a confrontation and B) delivering a proper whoopin'.😀

...Now if you said that you were an mma-trained fighter, boxer, olympic powerlifter or sprinter -- you would at least A) portray that you know something about defense or, at minimum, B) train in a sport that will build the hell out of your fast twitch muscle fibers (read: hope for efficacy of explosive strikes)... and, perhaps, that would be a different story.

The utility of 220-pounder biceps/forearms, at best, would maybe help with some chokes...and, at worst, make one look silly when getting worked by the skinny guy. 😀

EDIT: /PSA

I train regularly with my friend who's an olympic wrestling prospect, and have 11 years of athletic experience (excellent cardio/flexibility). Also done some BJJ training.

But putting that aside, having a good street fighting instinct, plus some good basic techniques.... you can smash nearly everyone you see if you're stronger than them. The very large majority of the population doesn't have advanced fighting training.
 
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