Doctors' Salaries in 10-15 years?

[bodla]

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Do you all think that the salaries of doctors in the next 10-15 years will be considerably lower than now? How much do you all think it will decrease or increase? Obviously, it might increase because of inflation, but the overall purchasing power will decrease.

I just wanted some general comments on this issue.

Thanks

 

[Skip Intro]

General Comment:

Don't choose medicine if you want to become rich.

 

[ny skindoc]

The question here is not about getting rich,only about whether or not physician salaries will be stable.Thats a legitimate concern considering the high costs of medical education and the great personal sacrifices of time and energy involved.No one can say for sure how things will go,but so far in spite of the revolution in managed care and its heavy cost pressures,physician salaries have held up well compared to many other fields.With the rapidly expanding and ageing population the demand for medical care will remain high and will be paid for one way or the other.There will continue to be much variation among specialties.Those fields with the most limited numbers of graduates will likely mantain an edge economically.

 

[nero]

Originally posted by Skip Intro
General Comment:

Don't choose medicine if you want to become rich.

true, but the money u get from medicine can make you rich if invested properly.....and not many other careers will give you the spare money that can be used for investing......but money shoudl not be the sole reason, but it can be A reason....that's not the point here....anyways i think their salaries will increase...cooperation btw insurance companeis and docs, salaries wil lincrease and with help from the gov't malpractice should decrease if there is a cap to how much a patient is allowed to collect......right now docs are quitting and many are unhappy, reality of it is, is that insurance companies need the docs too, and slowly as more docs have a say, salaires will increase.....not like teh 80s, but they shoudl go up...

nero

 

[surfdevl02]

Doctors will NEVER struggle financially....it is historically and will be the highest paid profession in the US for the foreseeable future.

 

[droliver]

Actually, Physicians were never one of the higher paid specialties until the mid 20th century as employer-based health insurance & the Medicare systems came into existence. Prior to that cash register, they tended to earn a pretty modest living

 

[ItsGavinC]

Another general comment:

Salaries will continue to fall. Yet, doctors will still be in the top 15% of incomes.

Sometimes we health-students become jaded and forget that even $70,000 is a *GREAT* income these days.

 

[doc05]

70K is NOT a great income unless you are a single person living in montana.

I certainly wouldn't waste my time in medical school for a lousy 70k! That's barely enough to support one person, much less an entire family.

Let's not fool ourselves with that holier-than-thou attitude. Hard work deserves appropriate compensation.

 

[TulaneKid24]

$70K is indeed a great income. It is more than double the average American income.

However, after you take into consideration that physicans have lost all their earning potential for at least 11 years (undergrad, med school, and residency) combined with $150 - 200K debt, then $70 is an aweful salary. In countries like Germany and Sweden, doctors make $60k. But in these countries, their social infrastructure is much better and education is totally free.

I agree with doc05, hard work should be compensated, especially when many people have TONS of debt.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Skip Intro
Don't choose medicine if you want to become rich.

Uhhh...why not? According to every source I've found over the past 4-5 years (Job Almanac, Bureau of Labor Statistics), Medicine is THE highest paying job in the U.S....period. Listen, as someone who contemplated his career decision as a 30 y/o, I reseached my options heavily, and decided on medicine largely because of the money. I considered other health careers...PA, PT, OT, PharmD, DMD, etc....but I decided that if I was going to go through all that schooling, I wanted to be compensated on the other side.

I love it when all these people out there say that "if you want to make money, go into business." What, are you kidding me? Yeah, there are a few MBAs doing extremely well...there are also a lot of B-school grads that are working entry-level management...making 40-50K/yr. On average, B-school grads' salaries don't even approach physicians' salaries. Let's not even talk about job-security of B-school grads versus MDs/DOs

A medical degree is the only degree I can think of that pretty much GUARANTEES a 6-fig starting salary. An MBA or JD certainly does not come with such a guarantee.

My sister just graduated Cum Laude from CWRU Law School...she's starting in the mid-60K range...only a handful (read: <5) from her class of >250 have 6-fig starting salaries...about half of her class doesn't even have job offers yet!

Again, for those of you that say medicine isn't where the money's at, please tell me where the money IS at....tell me the degree that guarantees higher pay than what doc's are getting (please cite your sources too) 😉

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Listen, as someone who contemplated his career decision as a 30 y/o, I reseached my options heavily, and decided on medicine largely because of the money.

This is not an ideal reason to enter medicine -- not because the pay isn't good -- but because the work is hard, long, at time painful, exhausting etc.

Other careers come without an income guratantee, but also with fewer pressures, fewer headaches, faster returns. Don't get me wrong: medicine is a good career. But in my opinion the pros and cons are close enough that the balance is only tipped in favor for people who are genuinely interested in medical sciences or the humanitarian aspects of medicine. The money alone would not be enough for me.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by eddieberetta
This is not an ideal reason to enter medicine -- not because the pay isn't good -- but because the work is hard, long, at time painful, exhausting etc.

Other careers come without an income guratantee, but also with fewer pressures, fewer headaches, faster returns. Don't get me wrong: medicine is a good career. But in my opinion the pros and cons are close enough that the balance is only tipped in favor for people who are genuinely interested in medical sciences or the humanitarian aspects of medicine. The money alone would not be enough for me.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, I AM genuinely interested in medical sciences / humanitarian aspects of medicine....all the careers I was contemplating were in the medical field. However, in choosing amongst those careers, I chose medicine largely because of the money.

One thing I do disagree with you on is this "fewer pressures, fewer headaches" notion that some have with regard to other careers. I can tell you...I have friends in careers varying from public defender to military officer to pharmaceutical sales to CFO....they're ALL stressed and under enourmous pressure. This notion that physicians have the monoploy on job stress is silly....IMHO.

 

[random_fool]

Originally posted by eddieberetta
This is not an ideal reason to enter medicine -- not because the pay isn't good -- but because the work is hard, long, at time painful, exhausting etc.

Other careers come without an income guratantee, but also with fewer pressures, fewer headaches, faster returns. Don't get me wrong: medicine is a good career. But in my opinion the pros and cons are close enough that the balance is only tipped in favor for people who are genuinely interested in medical sciences or the humanitarian aspects of medicine. The money alone would not be enough for me.

I have to disagree with your comment about ideal reasons for entering medicine. I believe that everyone has their own reasons for choosing their path in life, and it is rarely one particular reason that sets them down that path. Concurrent with that thought is the idea that there are no wrong reasons for choosing a career, only different expectations, perceptions and experiences.

In regards to declining real salaries, I agree with Teufelhunden. There are few professional careers with the financial incentives of medicine. People just love to bitch about how bad they have it, and medical doctors are not any different. Things are not so bad. We will mostly make a good salary (within the top 5% of the US population) with outstanding security, we can choose from a wide range of residencies depending on interest and competency, and we are placed in a position of relative respect and responsibility. So all problems are relative; and while medicine is certainly not as lucrative as in the past, it is still a good life.

This is not to say that there are no problems, but these issues abounds in all fields. If we are so unhappy, we should be more proactive as a group and lobby the federal/state government for change.

 

[johnstoner]

any job you choose is going to be long and hard...thats if you want to be the best that you can be...so going into medicine because of the money is not a bad reason...if someone wants to be financially secure...medicine is a great career.

I think people in general want it both...the chance to make a difference in people's lives in the best way that they can, and to have a good income and security for their family and their own. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to be financially well off...I don't know why theres this attitude that you have to sacrifice your whole life, youth, livelihood, and financial security to be able to go into medicine...it doesn't make sense.

Trust me...i want to help people but I also want to help myself and medicine probably one of very few ways that I can accomplish that.

 

[bgreet]

I'm really contemplating my future at the moment. I have my heart set on the medical industry, however financial stability does play a large factor in which job I wish to pursue. Right now I am really torn between both pharmacy and becoming a doctor. Financially speaking, I know pharmacists do well however I am very confused over how well doctors actually do now a days after deducting malpractice insurance rates from salary. I live in the north eastern United States, where rates are rather astronomical. Can anyone possibly give me an idea on the relation of income from a pharmacist to a doctor? My mother is currently a registered nurse, and has been for approximately 25 years and absolutely does not wish for me to become a doctor. Please shed some light, if possible, on this situation. Thanks to all that reply to this barrage of questions.

 

[doc05]

Originally posted by bgreet
I'm really contemplating my future at the moment. I have my heart set on the medical industry, however financial stability does play a large factor in which job I wish to pursue. Right now I am really torn between both pharmacy and becoming a doctor. Financially speaking, I know pharmacists do well however I am very confused over how well doctors actually do now a days after deducting malpractice insurance rates from salary. I live in the north eastern United States, where rates are rather astronomical. Can anyone possibly give me an idea on the relation of income from a pharmacist to a doctor? My mother is currently a registered nurse, and has been for approximately 25 years and absolutely does not wish for me to become a doctor. Please shed some light, if possible, on this situation. Thanks to all that reply to this barrage of questions.

medicine and pharmacy are very different fields. in this case you should choose based on your own interests. as an aside, physicians do much better than pharmacists, but have to go longer and more difficult training.

p.s. you are too old to base your decisions (esp. career) on your mother's wishes.

 

[nero]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
I love it when all these people out there say that "if you want to make money, go into business." What, are you kidding me? Yeah, there are a few MBAs doing extremely well...there are also a lot of B-school grads that are working entry-level management...making 40-50K/yr. On average, B-school grads' salaries don't even approach physicians' salaries. Let's not even talk about job-security of B-school grads versus MDs/DOs

THANK YOU FOR THINKING!!....i agree its so ridiculous when people say if you want to be rich get an MBA.....what a crock, hello i can get an MBA from University of Phoenix in like a year by sitting in my living room.....unless you go to a top b-school (wharton, fuqua, sloan, stanford, harvard) or combine it with another degree (i.e. PharmD, MD, MHA, MPH) an MBA is crap....pure and simple......if you go to a top school, then you'll be in a small percent who can compete with doc's salaries....besides job stability that MBAs dont' have >90% of docs are in the top 5-10% of salaries in the country.....its likely that <10% of MBAs are in the top 5-10% of salaries in the country.......

nero

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by flindophile
Salary data from BusinessWeek

http://bwnt.businessweek.com/faqsnfigs/index.asp?sg=1&cat=9

University Base salary: Mean Base salary: Median
Harvard University $95,012 $93,050
Stanford University $94,900 $95,000
Columbia University $92,000 $90,000
University of Pennsylvania $91,117 $85,000
Dartmouth College $89,661 $87,000
University of Chicago $88,176 $85,000
Northwestern University $88,000 $85,000
Massachusetts Institute of Technology $87,702 $85,000
New York University $85,531 $85,000
Yale $85,368 $85,000
University of Michigan $84,922 $85,000
Virginia (Darden) $84,302 $85,000
UC Berkeley (Haas) $83,950 $85,000
Cornell University $83,759 $85,000
Duke University $83,575 $85,250
UCLA (Anderson) $82,715 $85,000
Georgetown University $82,000 $81,000
Carnegie Mellon $80,299 $83,400
Texas-Austin $79,175 $80,000
UNC Chapel-Hill (Kenan-Flagler) $79,076 $81,763
Purdue University $79,000 $80,000
Rochester (Simon) $78,361 $79,000
Washington (Olin) $78,200 $80,000
Indiana University $76,934 $80,000
USC (Marshall) $75,000 $78,000
Michigan State University $74,133 $77,560
Emory University $74,078 $78,000
University of Maryland $72,285 $75,000
Vanderbilt (Owen) $72,168 $75,000
Notre Dame $71,873 $75,000

These are starting salaries. I think most MBAs from decent programs have incomes similar to primary care MDs after 5 years.

You must also consider that only about 1/3 or 1/2 at best of MBA grads are finding jobs now days, but nearly 100% of medical grads will find employment. Law is no better either. The graduating class at Iowa this year had only 1/3 of the class finding jobs. So graduating from a top MBA school will help to find a decent salary, but one must face the problem of not finding a job! 🙁

Additionally, plenty of people in their 30s are going to medical school. It's no big deal. If you want to be a physician, then go for it.

 

[bgreet]

Could someone possibly enlighten me, and inform me just how many hours doc's put in? Do you have much time for life outside of work? Do you enjoy a day or two off a week? Thank you for any answers supplied.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by bgreet
Could someone possibly enlighten me, and inform me just how many hours doc's put in? Do you have much time for life outside of work? Do you enjoy a day or two off a week? Thank you for any answers supplied.

After you finish residency, most physicians have 40-50 hours/week work schedules. Some busier practices will require 60 hrs/week.

I am most familiar with ophthalmology. The average ophthalmologist works 40 hours/week and most work 4 days/week.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by flindophile

Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud

I think the fact is that both doctors and MBAs (from top programs) do VERY well -- so you may as well do what you enjoy.

The key here is "Top MBA program". How many actually get into the "top" programs? Not many. Most MBAs have trouble finding trouble finding work in economic down turns.

MDs currently have no problems finding work. Nearly 100% find jobs.

I agree that you should do what drives you; however, numerous MBA grads are turning to medicine too. We've seen a big flux of medical applicants with MBAs.

 

[malusport]

Hi,

I did my undergrad in a business school and I have been thinking about going to law school or medical school. I have done research into this area and I have talked to many graduates of law schools.

This is what I found about law school, business school and medical school.

How do you pull down a salary of $125,000 for law school? You've to graduate from a top law school listed in the US News and World reports. They publish one every year. Top law school means, Yale, harvard, stanford etc. It really doesn't matter about your grades if you go to Yale or Harvard and are in the top 10% or bottom 10%.

What if you don't go to a top law school?

Then you have to go to law school that local. For example, if you're going to law school in New York city you've to graduate from one of the local schools such as Fordham law school, Cardozo law school, or Brooklyn law school but there is a catch.

If you go to one of these "local schools" you've to in top 10% of your class and make law review. Usually in most law schools law review is based on grades, but in some schools there is a writing competition.

If you're interested in law school strongly urge you to read "Planet Law school" by Atticus Falcon, one of the top top books if you're even remotly thinking about going to law school. Excellent book. 5 stars.

How do you pull down $100,000 salary from a business school?

Connections! Business is all about connections. I did my undergrad in a New York city school and they had excellent career service and my school was close to wall street. So, if you wanted work for a company over the summer it was pretty easy to find a job.

Going to a top school listed in the US news helps you secure a top paying job and look for a business school with a lot of connections in the business community.

One very very important thing about being a business person or a lawyer: You're very very easily replaceable. There are a lot of other people looking for the same position.

Now, let's get to being a doctor.

How do you make $125,000 as a doctor?

Graduate from medical school and get licensed to practice. How about if you don't get into a US MD school? Attend a DO school, you make the same salary.

What if you don't get into a DO program? Attend one of these carribean schools. St. George, Ross, American Univeristy of the Carribean, and Saba.

Why these four? SGU, AUC and Ross are accredited both by California and New York and you can practice in both of these states which has the hardest accreditation policies.

Why Saba? They just have been approved by New York. Not by california yet.

Are you easily replacable being a doctor? I higly doubt it. You can even practive in a rural community where they desparetly need doctors.

Sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I hope my analysis helps someone.

 

[Firebird]

Originally posted by Skip Intro
General Comment:

Don't choose medicine if you want to become rich.

This comment has always confused me. Doctor's don't make the salaries of CEO's and doctor's don't make the salaries of those in the Entertainment Industry. So if you're looking for salaries in excess of one million a year, then no...medicine won't make you that rich.

But if you're satisfied with a quarter million and you consider that rich (I do) then you'll pull that off in medicine fairly easy especially if you go outside of primary care.

 

[Doc AdamK in 2006]

Just remember if the single payer system ever took effect physcians will never make more than $100K.

Just like Canada, Sweeden, and Germany a family practice Docs will make $60K and specailists will make $80K on average.


And also note that AMSA and Senator Kucinich (butchered the name) is working hard to achieve this system.

well I hope I make more than $60-80K

Jusat in case I have someone attack me....
For the record I'm not against universal health care, I'm against a single payer system that will not respect the physician role in health care.



AK

 

[Smoke This]

Originally posted by random_fool
This is not to say that there are no problems, but these issues abounds in all fields. If we are so unhappy, we should be more proactive as a group and lobby the federal/state government for change.

That's some good advice.

 

[docuw]

Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
After you finish residency, most physicians have 40-50 hours/week work schedules. Some busier practices will require 60 hrs/week.

I am most familiar with ophthalmology. The average ophthalmologist works 40 hours/week and most work 4 days/week.

Wow, that is quite an easy schedule that Opthos get. That very ATYIPCAL for the average phyisician. I have worked in IM clinics for quite some time. At one of the clinics the docs work on average 80 hours per week. One of the clinics has a husband and wife team. The husband works 85 hrs/wk on average, and his wife, who just had a kid cut her hours back to half time - she now works 40-50 hours per week. (repeated: HALF TIME is 40 HOURS).

Many private practice docs still see patients in morning, come to clinic till 5, sit around doing paper work for a few hours, and then may have to go back to the hospital in the evening. 80 hours/wk is a very good estimate of the average private practice primary care doc's work week.

This doesn't even include the weekend days that they go in on the mornings to see patients in the hospital nor call schedules.

 

[bgreet]

So I guess i can venture to say that hospital work hours vs. private practice work hours vary greatly? Would it be safe to say that hospital hours are usually much less than private practice work hours? Would it also be safe to say that general practicioners have longer hours then say specializations?

 

[medicine2006]

Lost in all this talk about the great pay that physicians make is what non-economic costs are involved in medicine. If you're married or in a serious relationship your partner has to move when you go to med school, then move for your residency, then for your fellowship. This can have a toll on relationships. Doctors have higher than average divorce rate, and that is scarry since the divorce rate in this country is already so high.

Right now most of the problems that my gf and I are having are either directly or indirectly related to medicine.

Factor in the other non-economical factor of the long hours of studying in med school or working during residency and doctors don't have as much time to eat well or excercise.

I say medicine is great but in some respects is killing me slowly.

 

[Axe]

I think the only certainty is that the government/medicare will continue to depress what doctors can earn on the income side while the expense side (malpractice, office space, salaries for support staff, etc.) will continue to go up. If you consider take home pay after taxes and expenses, doctors dont make much. I wouldnt fixate too much on the gross figure numbers on the saalry surveys without knowing the story behind those numbers. What will really sink alot of doctors is when they get hooked to a big lifestyle (think expensive european cars, big McMansion house, private school for kids from K-Grad school).

Still its the only profession I know that is intellectually stimulating, relatively great job security (unless you're a OBGYN or other highly sued specilaty except rads and gas) so no dips in income, with the chance to make a positive contribution to society.

 

[Lactic Folly]

"except rads and gas".. sorry, what did you mean there?

 

[Firebird]

the person meant except radiology and gastroenterology I think

 

[Biodude]

Actually "rads and gas" means Radiology and Anesthesiology...just some lingo a pre-med's picked up on these boards after being here a while 😉

 

[Firebird]

I had actually thought maybe gas referred to anesthesiology but then gastroenterology popped in my head and I thought that mad more sense.

 

[WakeMedHeel]

I think Axe nailed it. Can't get hooked to the big life style.

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by bgreet
So I guess i can venture to say that hospital work hours vs. private practice work hours vary greatly? Would it be safe to say that hospital hours are usually much less than private practice work hours? Would it also be safe to say that general practicioners have longer hours then say specializations?

This is the beautiful thing about medicine, its what you make it. No one (after residency) will force you to work 110 hours a week, you will decide how much you wish to work, in the hospital or in private practice. Just realize many people feel they have to, and your income is linked to how much you do, work less you get paid less. If you are comfortable with that aspect youll be fine.

Hours vary greatly from person to person no matter where they practice. This is something that you will just work out with yourself and your practice/team, etc.

 

[rkim1]

what is the average take-home salary of physicians after malpractice, overhead, etc...?
i am aware that this varies accoring to specialties, location, hospital vs private practice, etc but can anyone provide a range?

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by Doc AdamK in 2006
Just remember if the single payer system ever took effect physcians will never make more than $100K.

Just like Canada, Sweeden, and Germany a family practice Docs will make $60K and specailists will make $80K on average.

I'm against a single payer system that will not respect the physician role in health care.

AK

Dude, for Canada add a one in front of those numbers and you will be a bit closer to the truth. In-demand specialists like Vascular, rads cards, gas can certainly make 350+ and many bill 400.

I all depends on how the single payer system is implemented. If MDs are salaried or capitated, the pressure on salaries is very strong. Canada has a private billing single payer system. That menas the more you do, the more you get paid. Except there is only one insurance "company" per province, and one HUGE doctors union that negotiates the fee schedule.

And we always have the high salaries and threat of leaving for the US (since most of us will be US boarded) to make sure we get what we want! 😉