Does age matter, for GS?

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mandinca

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Evenin', all.

I'm wondering what the general consensus is regarding age.....I'm one of the second-career medical students seeking a general surgery residency....and I'm a woman....and from a DO school. 😛 Yes, I'm applying broadly, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with or knowledge of "older people" entering into GS and whether there is a stigma against >30-ish.

Thanks!
 
> 30ish. No. (and are we talking 30ish = early 30s or really closer to 40?)

> 40ish. Perhaps, probably.

>50ish. Yes.

By the time I hit my Chief year, I was older than a couple of my junior attendings but it wasn't a big deal.
 
> 30ish. No. (and are we talking 30ish = early 30s or really closer to 40?)

> 40ish. Perhaps, probably.

>50ish. Yes.

By the time I hit my Chief year, I was older than a couple of my junior attendings but it wasn't a big deal.


Hey, thanks. And I'm 35. No kids coming (b/c i KNOW that'll be a question).
 
Hey, thanks. And I'm 35. No kids coming (b/c i KNOW that'll be a question).

It's illegal to ask that question. It will be a question in their minds, though, with all female applicants. It will be less of a question for a 35 yo female than a newly-married 26 year old.
 
Sure, it's illegal. But when I interviewed, I basically got that question straight-up or backhanded "what about your family/kids?" at EVERY place (by at least one person) I interviewed. I still remember talking to my med school roommates about it, and they basically got that or "are you married?" at all their (non-surgery residency) interviews too. Did the men get that question? Not as often.
 
To be fair though, I did get the "how about family" type of question at all interviews as well. Maybe they didn't press me as hard as the women applicants, but I was also pretty up front w my particular situation.
 
Sure, it's illegal. But when I interviewed, I basically got that question straight-up or backhanded "what about your family/kids?" at EVERY place (by at least one person) I interviewed. I still remember talking to my med school roommates about it, and they basically got that or "are you married?" at all their (non-surgery residency) interviews too. Did the men get that question? Not as often.

I agree that women likely get asked this much more often than men do.

And let's not forget the lovely practice of attendings asking if you're pregnant whenever you complained during residency of not feeling well.
 
General surgery seems to be a somewhat sexist and biased (against DOs) specialty.

Is it just an old boy's club?
 
General surgery seems to be a somewhat sexist and biased (against DOs) specialty.

Is it just an old boy's club?

If you want to do an allopathic residency you should have gone to an allopathic medical school. Otherwise it will remain an uphill climb for most specialties, especially the more competitive ones.
 
If you want to do an allopathic residency you should have gone to an allopathic medical school. Otherwise it will remain an uphill climb for most specialties, especially the more competitive ones.


Too bad it wasn't fully appreciated just how biased the surgery profession still is, at the time I applied to med school....I certainly WOULD have chosen the allopathic route, in retrospect....Hopefully my work will end up speaking for itself. My plan is to stay focused, work hard, and never give up 🙂 But thanks for those who gave encouraging words here. It helps 🙂
 
To be fair though, I did get the "how about family" type of question at all interviews as well. Maybe they didn't press me as hard as the women applicants, but I was also pretty up front w my particular situation.

in my 9 interviews it came up only once... the PD at that interview was like "Oh, I notice you have a wedding ring on.."
 
Thanks! You didn't address the sexism, though...

It just seems as if many other allopathic specialties have less difficulty admitting that DOs can be equally qualified in terms of board scores, grades, research, etc. And I actually want to do allopathic GS. I guess it'll just push me that much harder!


Can't say I know anything about sexism in GS since I'm male and not a general surgeon. We had plenty of female GS residents where I trained and it didn't seem like an old boys club to me.

DO's can be equally qualified. But when you have a ton of super qualified allopathic students, why worry with other students who usually take a different board examination and try and compare that to USMLE? Generally class rank isn't helpful either because a decent percentage of DO students didn't get in to an allopathic school so even a marginal DO student will have a high class rank. Again, if you wanted to do allopathic residency you should have gone to an allopathic medical school. What is wrong with the DO residency spots in your opinion?
 
in my 9 interviews it came up only once... the PD at that interview was like "Oh, I notice you have a wedding ring on.."

As a resident in a small program I got to interview all the candidates. I sure hope no one cared when I asked this type of question. I know it's not technically allowed but the goal of an interview is to get to know someone and asking about their family seems a good way to do that. I never had intention of using it in any other way. Though I will say that we were in a geographically isolated area and if you have a SO that does some very specific type of work then it might not have been a good fit where I trained.
 
Can't say I know anything about sexism in GS since I'm male and not a general surgeon. We had plenty of female GS residents where I trained and it didn't seem like an old boys club to me.

DO's can be equally qualified. But when you have a ton of super qualified allopathic students, why worry with other students who usually take a different board examination and try and compare that to USMLE? Generally class rank isn't helpful either because a decent percentage of DO students didn't get in to an allopathic school so even a marginal DO student will have a high class rank. Again, if you wanted to do allopathic residency you should have gone to an allopathic medical school. What is wrong with the DO residency spots in your opinion?

Just to preface, I am in no way trying to start an argument here. I am genuinely curious as to the mentality.

Similar to OP, if I had known of the bias, I would have attended an allopathic school. I have always wanted GS and never knew of the difficulty of entering the field from my position.

I understand the difficulty of/unwillingness to compare a COMLEX score to a USMLE score, though I can't say I agree about the class rank. I have a rather competitive USMLE score so I figured that would help even the playing field.

From my POV, I just feel the ACGME programs will give me the training I want. That isn't a slight to any AOA-trained general surgeon out there; it is simply a personal preference. I also don't want to be geographically limited, as there are considerably fewer AOA GS residencies than there are ACGME. I am also thinking about fellowship options, and there are two reasons for wanting ACGME: 1) ease of acceptance/entry into an ACGME fellowship, and 2) more fellowship options.

Sorry to hijack your thread, OP. That wasn't my intent at all.
 
I'm not a General Surgeon and I've been out for several years. When I finished training, around half of the residents in GenSurg were female. I'm faculty at a program that more or less defined "old school" on the GenSurg side. We have a substantial female contingent, probably around 1/3 of the residents (I'm not super involved with GenSurg and only see them when they rotate with us as interns).

As has been noted, it is a violation of the ACGME's rules to inquire about marital status, plans for family, sexual orientation . . .

Most violations are probably benign -- us simply trying to get to know the candidate.

As has been noted, DOs face an uphill climb to match into MD programs in competitive specialties like surgical subspecialties and the more prominent GenSurg programs. While it isn't impossible, you're best off knowing this in advance so you can buff the heck out of your application to "make up" for the stigma of the DO degree. That isn't a judgment by me, just my observation. I have no interaction in the GenSurg selection process at my place. I am intimately involved in the PRS process, though.
 
I'm not a General Surgeon and I've been out for several years. When I finished training, around half of the residents in GenSurg were female. I'm faculty at a program that more or less defined "old school" on the GenSurg side. We have a substantial female contingent, probably around 1/3 of the residents (I'm not super involved with GenSurg and only see them when they rotate with us as interns).

As has been noted, it is a violation of the ACGME's rules to inquire about marital status, plans for family, sexual orientation . . .

Most violations are probably benign -- us simply trying to get to know the candidate.

As has been noted, DOs face an uphill climb to match into MD programs in competitive specialties like surgical subspecialties and the more prominent GenSurg programs. While it isn't impossible, you're best off knowing this in advance so you can buff the heck out of your application to "make up" for the stigma of the DO degree. That isn't a judgment by me, just my observation. I have no interaction in the GenSurg selection process at my place. I am intimately involved in the PRS process, though.


MD's rule and DO's drool!!

Also, chicks don't make good surgery residents because they're always on their periods and stuff.....
















.................😀
 
Sure, it's illegal. But when I interviewed, I basically got that question straight-up or backhanded "what about your family/kids?" at EVERY place (by at least one person) I interviewed. I still remember talking to my med school roommates about it, and they basically got that or "are you married?" at all their (non-surgery residency) interviews too. Did the men get that question? Not as often.

As a late-20s woman, recently married, and couples' matching (so everyone will know I'm married...) I'm curious if there is a recommended way of dealing with the "what about kids" question?

As much as I'd love to have an open conversation with every program about how they deal with residents (male and female) having kids, timing with research years, etc., my sense is that would not be a highly recommended strategy 🙂

Do most people just defer the question ("oh... we haven't made up our minds... career is our first priority right now... " etc.)?

(sorry for another detour from the original topic!)
 
Thanks for this thread, OP. I've been wondering the same thing.
Wish there was more hard data backing up the statements, but...better than nothing.

Problematically, plastics/recon would put me in everyday contact with the exact people I'm trying to avoid by going DO...



Getting pretty tired of reading all the " how bad is the lifestyle" threads. I've been married 14 years--I prefer sleeping in the on-call room at this point. The hours and focus are part of the allure. Being able to re-attach limbs...are you kidding me? Compared to piano recitals and helping with algebra?
 
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I was associate program director for a few years and reviewed a ton of ERAS applications. Date of birth appears on one part of the application, but quite honestly, I doubt most people even look at that. Probably the most commonly used filter is USMLE score (you can set for scores >220, etc) and then get a list of candidates that fall within your criteria.

I can appreciate your concerns as I was a "nontraditional" applicant for colorectal fellowship- applied after having been in practice for a few years. Though my situation is a bit different, I don't think it was too much of a hinderance, though I can appreciate why a program may be apprehensive about trying to train an older person who may be "set in their ways." On the interview trail, I thought it would be obvious but realistically most late 20 to early 30-year olds don't look drastically different than those in their mid to late 30's.

My guess is it may not be that obvious just by looking at you that you're roughly 10 years older than the "traditional" applicant though they may put 2&2 together by reading what you've done with your life thus far. I don't think mid-30's would be seen by most as a big deal (50 would be another story.)

As an aside, at the program where I was faculty there was a female resident (also a DO) who was a few years older than I was when I joined the staff. She was excellent, did very well in the program, and ultimately went on to fellowship. Until one day when she and I were talking in the OR, I wouldn't have guessed that she was older based on her appearance. I think having life experience served her well- she was very mature and respectful; one of my favorites to work with.

Good luck
 
Our program will only take DO candidates who took USMLE.

Pay to play
 
I was associate program director for a few years and reviewed a ton of ERAS applications. Date of birth appears on one part of the application, but quite honestly, I doubt most people even look at that. Probably the most commonly used filter is USMLE score (you can set for scores >220, etc) and then get a list of candidates that fall within your criteria.

I can appreciate your concerns as I was a "nontraditional" applicant for colorectal fellowship- applied after having been in practice for a few years. Though my situation is a bit different, I don't think it was too much of a hinderance, though I can appreciate why a program may be apprehensive about trying to train an older person who may be "set in their ways." On the interview trail, I thought it would be obvious but realistically most late 20 to early 30-year olds don't look drastically different than those in their mid to late 30's.
My guess is it may not be that obvious just by looking at you that you're roughly 10 years older than the "traditional" applicant though they may put 2&2 together by reading what you've done with your life thus far. I don't think mid-30's would be seen by most as a big deal (50 would be another story.)

As an aside, at the program where I was faculty there was a female resident (also a DO) who was a few years older than I was when I joined the staff. She was excellent, did very well in the program, and ultimately went on to fellowship. Until one day when she and I were talking in the OR, I wouldn't have guessed that she was older based on her appearance. I think having life experience served her well- she was very mature and respectful; one of my favorites to work with.

Good luck

Thank you so much! Appreciate the kind and informative words.
 
Our program will only take DO candidates who took USMLE.

Pay to play

As far as I've seen with my classmates and friends, we all take the USMLE....especially if we're applying ACGME.

And DOs who do ACGME residencies all take the same surgical boards as MDs, too...just to dispell the age-old concern ;-)
 
As far as I've seen with my classmates and friends, we all take the USMLE....especially if we're applying ACGME.

And DOs who do ACGME residencies all take the same surgical boards as MDs, too...just to dispell the age-old concern ;-)

Is there a concern? 😕

I think it fairly common knowledge (at least amongst residents and attendings) that if you do an ACGME residency, you do the ABS exams regardless of your medical school degree.
 
I certainly have alot of "old school" surgical beliefs, but......

In these contemporary days, there is not much difference in the quality of MD vs DO training. Some of the best general surgeons I know are from DO background.

Interestingly enough, i have yet to see a DO surgeon achieve significant prominence in the field of cv surgery. I guess there are still too many dinosaurs around to give the DOs a shot
 
Is there a concern? 😕

I think it fairly common knowledge (at least amongst residents and attendings) that if you do an ACGME residency, you do the ABS exams regardless of your medical school degree.

Yes, but unfortunately I've learned that some surgeons and PDs are of an "older mindset"....
 
I certainly have alot of "old school" surgical beliefs, but......

In these contemporary days, there is not much difference in the quality of MD vs DO training. Some of the best general surgeons I know are from DO background.

That's encouraging!
 
In these contemporary days, there is not much difference in the quality of MD vs DO training.
Agreed. They're merging the match process now, I guess. I think it's just a matter of time before the degrees are merged as well. It's not 1900 any more.
 
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