Does anyone ever think they can't do it....?

[Psycho Doctor]

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Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

 

[Law2Doc]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

Odds are that people less smart than you have made it through. If the med school accepted you, they think you can do it. Give it a try - what have you got to lose.

 

[emack]

The short answer is: yes, I think we all feel like that sometimes. But there's a chance that you're feeling it worse than is necessary.

If you think your apathy might be a deeper issue than that brand of "what-the-hell-is-the-point-of-all-this-mindless-memorization" feeling we all get sometimes, you might consider talking to someone about it. Does your school have advisors or counsellors? This is supposed to be hard, and it's not always fun, but you shouldn't be miserable either.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

The short answer is: yes, I think we all feel like that sometimes. But there's a chance that you're feeling it worse than is necessary.

If you think your apathy might be a deeper issue than that brand of "what-the-hell-is-the-point-of-all-this-mindless-memorization" feeling we all get sometimes, you might consider talking to someone about it. Does your school have advisors or counsellors? This is supposed to be hard, and it's not always fun, but you shouldn't be miserable either.

I didn't mean to imply apathy; I actually care A LOT but sometimes it seems like the constant struggles never end or get better...is that weird or normal?

 

[thackl]

Nearly everyone feels this way..... even the straight A gunners. Just get through it!

 

[tupac_don]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

Push it to the limit, limit, don't let anything stand in your way, just push it, do it and get it done. That's all.

 

[GtownCobra]

dude, i don't know why people complain about the preclinical years.... i never went to class, slept till noon, played pleanty of video games, and still passed everything just fine... medstudents all have cluster C personality disorders, that's the problem.... "like, oh my god, if I'm not AOA, or if i'm not kissing this attending's ass right, i won't get into plastics"

i'm not talking about anyone in particular, just yapping

 

[futuredo32]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

I would imagine that almost every med student feels this way sometimes! I think it's totally normal.

 

[tupac_don]

I would imagine that almost every med student feels this way sometimes! I think it's totally normal.

Then again he is a PsychoDoctor, so I don't know

 

[MoosePilot]

PD, if you talk like this and get all As this semester, I think you really need to do some self analysis. It would be healthy.

"Wow, I was really super negative and thought I failed the MCAT. Then I got the results back and I really got a X (where X >35). I was really super negative and thought med school academics were too difficult and couldn't imagine doing that for the next couple of years, but then I got all As. If I'd wanted to take it easier, I could have and settled for a B in a class, or taken it quite a bit easier, gotten all Cs, and still graduated with an MD and probably in a good position to get into psychiatry. Maybe life isn't as tough as I think."

I do this to myself, too. I think it might be surmountable, you just have to really point out to yourself when life is really being too tough and when you're making it seem tougher than it is.

 

[ExtraCrispy]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

PD, I can sympathize. Just hold on to those moments that DO fulfill you, with patients, etc., tuck in your chin and keep pushing. I hated the preclinical years for exactly the reasons you mentioned - I hated the memorization, the sheer volume of material that precluded any kind of comtemplation or focus on critical thinking, the steady sapping away of the things I loved - and I became so discouraged by the midpoint of second year, that I started to look into PhD programs in English literature. I also can say that I'm not alone - a good portion of my classmates have told me that they underwent similar doubts at some point during the preclinical years. Just know that the routine in M1 and M2 is NOTHING like the actual wards. Taking care of patients is a dynamic, exciting, perplexing task, much different from the monotony with which you're struggling now.

Just make sure that you hold onto to the things that make you happiest, and keep your focus ahead. You'll get through this! 👍

 

[Tiki]

I don't really understand why you would have to do an all-nighter. I've never once had to an all-nighter. I'm willing to give up alot to get good grades, but I will not lose sleep during the first two years. There will come a time (in the very near future for me, lol) where I will be forced to give up sleep, until then I'm getting eight hours.

Medical school always seems more bearable when you have a good eight hours of sleep. 🙂

 

[DrYo12]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

who HASN'T felt like this? And more than once, I might add.

 

[Fed Meat]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

Psycho, all that really matters is that you pass. Really, the knowlege difference between the guy bringing it home with a 75 and the guy with a 90 is pretty slim. The 90 guy just knew a few fine details that will be gone in a few short weeks.

Learn to get over feeling badly about grades, and you'll feel better about yourself. Strive, try to do well, but get your focus off of grades. You'll be happier.

You have what it takes. Anyone who puts up with this crap and actually cares about what the end results will be has what it takes.

C=MD. Everything else is just to make you happy. If Bs are going to make you happier, fine, shoot for Bs. Same thing with As. But who gives a crap about what your grade is if you move on to 2nd year? And third year? And graduate. And finish residency.

Some day someone is going to come up to you and say, "What did you think about anatomy?" And you're going to say, "Eh, I lived through it and passed." And that will be that, and you'll never hear another word about the pterygomaxillary fissure or the tensor vill palantini. Who cares? And if you do need to hear of them again, you'll learn them.

 

[Paws]

Psycho, all that really matters is that you pass. Really, the knowlege difference between the guy bringing it home with a 75 and the guy with a 90 is pretty slim. The 90 guy just knew a few fine details that will be gone in a few short weeks.

Learn to get over feeling badly about grades, and you'll feel better about yourself. Strive, try to do well, but get your focus off of grades. You'll be happier.

This makes me feel better. I am right there along with Psycho D. We just had our final today and I am feeling like: wha ... that's all I got for all that &^% work? Ugh, my grades go up and down and all over the place. My self-esteem seems to as well, which bugs me. I love working with patients and doing the clinical stuff and I feel confident that I can do good work there. But this impossible "here, memorize 500 pages in two weeks," stuff is hard to take.

I would say that I am as smart as my friend who pulls 90's and above. But I am not willing to become insane in order to get some extra points. I might get a 78 to his 95, but I seem to retain alot more of the material for some reason. This stuff be crazy man ...

 

[DrYo12]

While everyone has their own set of talents and skills, most people in medical school fancy themselves smarter than their contemporaries. Most will deny this, but facts are facts, and people who get into medical school think they're good at academics, and that they are going to be the next top dog in school. Many come in thinking that THEY are different. THEY have it all figured out. I remember before I was in medical school and thinking to myself, now if all these people have to do is go to school and don't work or anything else, how do they not have enough time to study and do well? They must not be putting in enough time. Well, I tell you that I put in the time. I study all the time. I study with people, I study alone. I study on the weekends, I study every night. And the reality is, unless you can figure out what is going to be important to the professors on the exam, you just have to learn as much as you can, and keep moving forward.

I know it seems like we're taking in so much and we don't have enough time to digest it, but in all honesty, I have been asked questions by non-medical people and find myself in disbelief at the words coming out of my mouth. I didn't even think I knew that stuff. In undergrad, you could go into an exam and feel like you were ready. In medical school, you go into an exam feeling like you'd might as well get it over with. You will never feel ready, you will never feel like you 'aced' anything, and you'll probably never believe how much information we have to learn in a short amount of time, nor the amount of detail that is being omitted.

Grades have a whole different meaning in medical school. For most pre-meds, an A represented hard work and intelligence as an undergrad, a C represented a lack of effort or ability (or committment, even). However, the meanings behind the grades makes a serious change and the important thing is that you have to realize that a C in medical school does not equal or represent or even signify anything that it did before. I have never worked so hard to be constantly reminded how mediocre I am. And yet I keep going back there every day. This is what we've been working for and they're going to have to drag me kicking and screaming to get me out of there.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I have never worked so hard to be constantly reminded how mediocre I am. And yet I keep going back there every day. This is what we've been working for and they're going to have to drag me kicking and screaming to get me out of there.

haha so true

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Psycho, all that really matters is that you pass. Really, the knowlege difference between the guy bringing it home with a 75 and the guy with a 90 is pretty slim. The 90 guy just knew a few fine details that will be gone in a few short weeks.

Learn to get over feeling badly about grades, and you'll feel better about yourself. Strive, try to do well, but get your focus off of grades. You'll be happier.

You have what it takes. Anyone who puts up with this crap and actually cares about what the end results will be has what it takes.

C=MD. Everything else is just to make you happy. If Bs are going to make you happier, fine, shoot for Bs. Same thing with As. But who gives a crap about what your grade is if you move on to 2nd year? And third year? And graduate. And finish residency.

Some day someone is going to come up to you and say, "What did you think about anatomy?" And you're going to say, "Eh, I lived through it and passed." And that will be that, and you'll never hear another word about the pterygomaxillary fissure or the tensor vill palantini. Who cares? And if you do need to hear of them again, you'll learn them.

thanks, that does make me feel better. And so many of you saw right through me; i never mentioned grades althpugh I guess deep down as I was going into exams, i was concerned about how well or poorly i would do on them. As someone mentioned in undergrad i generally fe;lt confident going into an exam and I almost always felt confident coming out of an exam, but in med school i never feel confident going into an exam and I ratrely can even predict how I did on an exam. And I hate to admit i actually feel better after an exam if everyone else thought it was terrible and they thought they did poorly...at least it matches many of my feelings.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

This makes me feel better. I am right there along with Psycho D. We just had our final today and I am feeling like: wha ... that's all I got for all that &^% work? Ugh, my grades go up and down and all over the place. My self-esteem seems to as well, which bugs me. I love working with patients and doing the clinical stuff and I feel confident that I can do good work there. But this impossible "here, memorize 500 pages in two weeks," stuff is hard to take.

I would say that I am as smart as my friend who pulls 90's and above. But I am not willing to become insane in order to get some extra points. I might get a 78 to his 95, but I seem to retain alot more of the material for some reason. This stuff be crazy man ...

yup gross anatomy 👎

 

[DieselPetrolGrl]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

this is horrible. have you looked into talking to your school councelor about these feelings.


ps: how dare you not be peppy about every inch of medschool....you must be sick. j/k

(ha!)

 

[Paws]

Thank you DrYo12, I like your post. 👍 I almost never feel 'ready' for an exam and how I feel coming out is almost never an accurate indication of what the results will be. Usually now I just feel intense relief, that I can go do my laundry, buy some groceries, call a friend, pay a bill and sleep a little more than my alotted 8 hours. I am usually physically tired and need to just rest.

It's a whole 'nother ball game, and I just have to get used to this vague uneasy feeling that I am not ever fully prepared. Clinicians tell me, you just never feel totally prepared again. You always feel sort of unsure.

I am really glad to hear other people's feelings about this!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

this is horrible. have you looked into talking to your school councelor about these feelings.


ps: how dare you not be peppy about every inch of medschool....you must be sick. j/k

(ha!)

you're not really serious about seeing a counselor, are you? I thought everyone was saying this was normal. Anyway, how are you doing? How ar eyou enjoying med school?

 

[funshine]

you're not really serious about seeing a counselor, are you? I thought everyone was saying this was normal. Anyway, how are you doing? How ar eyou enjoying med school?

I think feeling overwhelmed and anxious about med school is normal, but your professed lack of sleep and rate of coffee consumption on other threads is worrisome...I don't know, maybe a lot of high-achievers do this? Some people don't seem to have a limit on how hard they can push themselves, but I don't know if that's a "problem" that needs to be addressed by anyone other than yourself.

 

[PreMedAdAG]

Morning: wake up.. excited to start day
Lunch: irritated that I'm going to miss oprah AGAIN
After I get home: study study study
Before I Go to bed: feel doomed, like i have no life and wonder what the eff I'm doing in med school and why I'm not simply just the BEST soccer mom in the world and baking cookies while I watch oprah (sorry if this sounds sexest, but I'm old fashioned and would prefer to do this at times)

Morning: surprisingly... wake up... excited to start the day


welcome to med school.... the only institution (in my opinion) operating the most amazing emotional rollercoaster you'll ever ride 😉

 

[funshine]

Morning: wake up.. excited to start day
Lunch: irritated that I'm going to miss oprah AGAIN
After I get home: study study study
Before I Go to bed: feel doomed, like i have no life and wonder what the eff I'm doing in med school and why I'm not simply just the BEST soccer mom in the world and baking cookies while I watch oprah (sorry if this sounds sexest, but I'm old fashioned and would prefer to do this at times)

Morning: surprisingly... wake up... excited to start the day


welcome to med school.... the only institution (in my opinion) operating the most amazing emotional rollercoaster you'll ever ride 😉

sometimes, i think how nice it would be to be a trophy wife, and just throw dinner parties for a career.

and then i remember: oh yeah, i'm going to med school and possibly becomign a surgeon. i have ambition. a ten-year plan. must not forget.

 

[stoic]

yo PD, it's clear you're stressing yourself out a little bit too much. now of course med school is ****ing stressful. but to me the important thing has been being able to recognize when i'm toasted and just have to take some time away from the books. even if it is only to cook a real dinner or do yoga or play with the cat. the difference between undergrad and med school is that in med school, you can't actually know everything. in undergrad you pretty much knew exactly how much you knew about the material; in med school it seems (to me at least) that there is always stuff you don't know - no matter how hard you study. so the trick has been being comfortable with not knowing stuff. you just work as hard as you can, and when you're burnt out, you have to stop for a while. this is a long term thing, and all of us have to do the things that keep us happy and healthy or we will never make it through the next 3.5 years and residency.

so dude, i'm ordering you to enjoy break. i'm ordering you to watch a movie you've been meaning to watch and read a book you've been meaning to read. and i order you to keep a couple beers in the fridge so that next semester when you're frazzled to the max, you can crack one open and go drink it while thinking about how much you've learned, the person/physician the experience is turning you into, and how great it is to get a chance to get to do exactly what you love.

ok, that's my profoundness for the break. back to playing computer games and sleeping till noon.

merry christmans,
dave

 

[UCLA2000]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

I think that we all feel that way at some point during med school. Med school is emotionally, physically, and mentally taxing. Just remember that it's a marathon you're running. You're not sprinting here.

Med school is like a roller coaster. Once you're there, all you gotta do is just hold the *&() on for 4 years.

Med school feels like it will never end...and then one day...once you've given up hope, and forgotten what it felt like to have a life, you're a 4th year. A 4th year with no idea what to do with all the spare time that they now have.

Hang in there. You'll be alright.

 

[kathy10]

Sometimes I feel I just go through the actions; I mean yes seeing patients makes you feel for them and want to heklp them. But it's the classwork; sometimes i feel i just go through the motions...go to class, study, go to class, study again, pull all-nighters, take an impossible exam and then wonder if it's sinking in and if I have what it takes. I love the case studies and clerkships and things like that, but the regurgitation of sometimes pointless memorization...I'm never sure if I'll get through the next day.

Hey PD,
I know how you feel because I felt the same way these past couple weeks during finals and my advice is that you should hang in there because there are many ppl who feel the same way...you are not alone!!!!! Look on the bright side cause the bright side is where we are 🙂 going!!!!!!!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I think feeling overwhelmed and anxious about med school is normal, but your professed lack of sleep and rate of coffee consumption on other threads is worrisome...I don't know, maybe a lot of high-achievers do this? Some people don't seem to have a limit on how hard they can push themselves, but I don't know if that's a "problem" that needs to be addressed by anyone other than yourself.

hmmm...you mean people actually remember things others admit on other threads and draw conclusions from them? i better watch what i say. And my sleep patterns and my coffee consumption are well developed over the past few years so they are nothing to really be concerned about. 😀 When I start popping pills to do it, then I'll worry.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

yo PD, it's clear you're stressing yourself out a little bit too much. now of course med school is ****ing stressful. but to me the important thing has been being able to recognize when i'm toasted and just have to take some time away from the books. even if it is only to cook a real dinner or do yoga or play with the cat. the difference between undergrad and med school is that in med school, you can't actually know everything. in undergrad you pretty much knew exactly how much you knew about the material; in med school it seems (to me at least) that there is always stuff you don't know - no matter how hard you study. so the trick has been being comfortable with not knowing stuff. you just work as hard as you can, and when you're burnt out, you have to stop for a while. this is a long term thing, and all of us have to do the things that keep us happy and healthy or we will never make it through the next 3.5 years and residency.

so dude, i'm ordering you to enjoy break. i'm ordering you to watch a movie you've been meaning to watch and read a book you've been meaning to read. and i order you to keep a couple beers in the fridge so that next semester when you're frazzled to the max, you can crack one open and go drink it while thinking about how much you've learned, the person/physician the experience is turning you into, and how great it is to get a chance to get to do exactly what you love.

ok, that's my profoundness for the break. back to playing computer games and sleeping till noon.

merry christmans,
dave

Hey there stoic, that sounds like excellent advice and i'm following it. I am really relaxing this vacation. Did some shopping, some volunteer work tha ti really enjoy doing: visiting sick kids in the hospital and working at a soup kitchen and homeless shelter and trying to give them something to make their holiday happy. And my gf has been here to visit. Then my family is going to Florida for Christmas, I'm doing just great, thanks. Hope you are relaxing and enjoying your down time too.

All the best...

 

[DrRobert]

dude, i don't know why people complain about the preclinical years.... i never went to class, slept till noon, played pleanty of video games, and still passed everything just fine... medstudents all have cluster C personality disorders, that's the problem.... "like, oh my god, if I'm not AOA, or if i'm not kissing this attending's ass right, i won't get into plastics"

I find it amazing how everyone just dismisses this post as if it doesn't even exist. In reality, this person has figured out the secret to medical school success. Actually, it's not really a secret at all. I think it is dependent on which school you go to, but every class has a certain percentage that figures this out early. And these are usually the happiest and highest-achieving members of the class.

It really is this simple. Sleep in, skip class, study at your own pace, watch TV, workout, cook dinner or eat out, talk on the phone, surf the web, spend time with family/friends, go to bed. Start over the next day.

I had more free time in med school than I did in high school or college.

It is better to figure this out sooner than later, before it's too late.

 

[UCLA2000]

dude, i don't know why people complain about the preclinical years.... i never went to class, slept till noon, played pleanty of video games, and still passed everything just fine... medstudents all have cluster C personality disorders, that's the problem.... "like, oh my god, if I'm not AOA, or if i'm not kissing this attending's ass right, i won't get into plastics"

i'm not talking about anyone in particular, just yapping

Some schools have attendance requirements.

Mine didn't. I WISH that I had figured that secret out earlier. My problem is that both of my parents were teachers and they instilled in me guilt for not going to class. The classes were very low yield because the lecturers were going entirely too fast or were getting lost on stupid tangents. I'd spend the rest of the evening reading my notes and studying.

I would have been much happier during med school (and probably gotten higher grades) if I had skipped class altogether, worked out, slept well, and studied throughout the day.

 

[TracksuitsRock]

you're not really serious about seeing a counselor, are you? I thought everyone was saying this was normal. Anyway, how are you doing? How ar eyou enjoying med school?

I would like to offer that seeing a counselor doesn't imply you or your thoughts are abnormal. Many issues people go to counselors with are "normal" but they still find it helpful to talk to somebody to work through the issues in more depth than they might be able to do alone or with friends. What if your dad died and you were grieving and started seeing a counselor for support. There is not necessarily anything abnormal about your grief. Some people find counseling helpful and some don't but it is not a bad suggestion to try it out if things don't get better.

Keep your head up and enjoy the holidays!

 

[run4boston]

Some schools have attendance requirements.

Mine didn't. I WISH that I had figured that secret out earlier. My problem is that both of my parents were teachers and they instilled in me guilt for not going to class. The classes were very low yield because the lecturers were going entirely too fast or were getting lost on stupid tangents. I'd spend the rest of the evening reading my notes and studying.

I would have been much happier during med school (and probably gotten higher grades) if I had skipped class altogether, worked out, slept well, and studied throughout the day.

At my school, I think it requires some flexibility when it comes to skipping lectures. Some classes are purely based on pre-written notes. Others, require you to be at the lecture and listen to the main points of the professor. So, it's a mix and match as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Fusion]

The big difference between material presented in medical school (as well as undergrad to some degree) is that it is important to differentiate information that is a "must know" as opposed to "nice to know, but not absolutely essential." One of my biggest challenges in college was being able to distinguish the important concepts and big picture from the minutiae. After completing my first semester of medical school, I find myself not only becoming a better test taker, but also being able to predict test questions and picking up on important points more easily. It is virtually impossible to learn everything that is presented to us in our lectures and handouts. No one can know everything. We know this, our professors know this, everyone knows this (at least almost everyone 😉 ). But at the same time we as future physicians should try to learn as much as possible not just for ourselves, but for the benefit of our patients as well. So as far as the basic sciences go, I think that striking a balance between the fundamentals and minutiae should be our goal in the end.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I would like to offer that seeing a counselor doesn't imply you or your thoughts are abnormal. Many issues people go to counselors with are "normal" but they still find it helpful to talk to somebody to work through the issues in more depth than they might be able to do alone or with friends. What if your dad died and you were grieving and started seeing a counselor for support. There is not necessarily anything abnormal about your grief. Some people find counseling helpful and some don't but it is not a bad suggestion to try it out if things don't get better.

Keep your head up and enjoy the holidays!

i was not objecting to seeing a counselor. In fact i've spent more sessions with a grief counselor and even a psychiatrist than I care to admit. Without them, i would not even have made it to finish undergrad. But dealing with the stress of med school is something everyone of us has to deal with so i didn't think it was anything unusual necessitating a counselor.