Does anyone know anything about UMDNJ - Newark?

[drbon]

I've been looking into the Internal Med prog. at UMDNJ in Newark....can anyone - residents or ppl who have recently interviewed - comment on the program? pros and cons? the hospital? the work load? thanks

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[letusbedocs]

can comment as a student there....

Go to scutwork.com to look at some information about it.
As for the program, it has some of the best clinical experiences you will get, I feel. However, the program is going through a "transition" I'd say as the chief of medicine is being replaced......

The residents are mostly foreign grads (American born Caribbean "sort of high scoring StepIers" and your Harrison's memorizing, excellent clinician, ridiculous amounts of experience grads from Europe, Latin America, and India).

They are pretty good about keeping their own for fellowships, but from what I hear it is TOUGH as a foreign grad from here to get a fellowship in other places. Plus, for the competitive ones, you'd probably have to do a chief year.

That being said, the program has no heme-onc fellowship as of now, so, it might be tough to get that one.

You get a good diversity of experiences with the god-forsaken Newark population to a very middle-class/upper middle class wealthy hospital experience at Hackensack. I've already been sort of smug at the clinical experiences I've had versus what I've seen on interviews at some big-name places. Plus, you get the VA.

The program is relatively decent about capping and its a night float system except for the ICU months. I'd say even as an intern the average work hours are going to be about 65-70 hours.

The attendings at UH at least are quite excellent -- they really WANT to be in Newark and their wealth of experience and teaching ability is quite good. At the VA, the younger attendings are so-so, but the older ones there are excellent.

New York is only 20 minutes away by car or train. (Some residents who are financially able to do it live in Manhattan). And, like I said, you get to have a car and possibly even buy a house. I could actually be in Lower Manhattan or Times Square before a Columbia or Albert Einstein-Montefiore resident can. 🙂

Hoboken is a fun, even closer place to the city where a lot of residents live.
Level I trauma, residencies in all your fields (neurosurg, ortho, OMFS, etc, etc.) so you really get a full academic medical center experience. Their liver and kidney transplant services are quite busy.

Its not a competitive program for most American grads and I'd be content thinking of it as undiscovered gem for clinical experience and making yourself an extremely competent doctor IF NOT FOR:

1. UMDNJ-Newark's scandal ridden atmosphere. Just google the Star-Ledger or New York Times to get a whiff. I'd feel a bit like walking into a sinking ship. (Although the new leadership is committed to ridiculously high ethical standards).

2. The program is sort of content to rest on its amazing pathology. That is, I feel they are not really going to try and fight for you go to other places if you'd like. Thus, I think the mentorship would be weak, but I'm only saying that as a med student.

3. The sort of high level of FMGs and Carribean graduates. I have nothing against them personally and I have learned tons from them and they are hard working and nice to medical students at least. Moreover, the program tries to get the best of this crop. It's just that having so many of them plays into my #2 qualm -- the program sort of lives within itself as most residents stay for fellowship and they all have been friends since the days from Ross, SABA, Grenada, Guadalajara, etc. It just sucks being a minority not of that mindset.

So, that being said, I'm not sure what your background is, but if you're an FMG/IMG its a good teaching place, if you work hard you'll get almost the full range of fellowhip opportunities here, you get to teach med students, and you will SEE A LOT.

Pay is also good (practically same as Manhattan progs but much cheaper to live in Jersey).

If I do end up here, I guess I won't be heartbroken, if that's a compliment or an insult, I'm not sure.

 

[drbon]

awesome reply, thank you so much for that input...i'm really looking to do a fellowship in cards, so the fact that they tend to keep their own is comforting...
you wouldn't happen to know some average step scores of some of those residents would you? when you say high step1's, what do you mean?

 

[mig26x]

thanks!! I have an interview there on Jan 8th.

 

[letusbedocs]

I know one resident who got in on something called the "pre-match" or whatever the hell that is and he said that he got in the mid "80s" or whatever the hell that is (he won't give me a three digit score).

Listen, for the Northeast, I feel like a Carib grad or foreign grad is going to have score at least above 200 for a categorical IM spot.

I know at one place I interviewed at (St. Luke's/St. Roosevelt's) they said that their Foreign Grads scored in the 240s on Step I and the American medical school grads scored in the 210s.

Good luck.

 

[Dr. ZZ]

I interviewd at UMDNJ-newark in november

Pros:
1. Program Director: By far the nicest and most sincere PD i've come across...Seems like she really cares about her residents and her program
2. 3 hospital network: all the exposure u get from the 3 hospitals...will definitely give you the all-around training you need to practice in the real world.
3. Work Load: Talking to the current interns....they seem to have it pretty easy...it's not that hard compared to other programs....at most other places...12 patients a day is the norm...at UMDNJ it's the exception....you rarely get to carry that many patients...and when you're at the VA..it's even less....So you will have a life outside of work and still get good education...(efficient education...)
4. Camarderie: Majority of the residents are in their mid to late 20s as they should be and they speak normal english and have manners. So you will get along with them and form friendships and they can help you out whenever u need it. It's important to like the environment you work in..so for those few days you're working over-time...u wont mind and hate it too much.
5. Distance to NYC: extremetly close...15-20 mins away...you can actually have a social life in nyc and enjoy all the nite life, the girls....the clubs/lounges if that's your thing.

Cons:
1. City of Newark: City with the most murders so far in 2006, last time i checked it was 101. The last person that was murdered was a teengage girl and this happened on the same street that the hospital is located on.
2. Internal Drama??: The chairman of medicine has stepped down for sum reason...no one really knows...
3. Fellowships: Eventhough they have their own fellowships...the spots arent that numerous...so how are you gonna fit 40 residents into 2 GI spots...and if you dont get a fellowship within the hospital...it's hard to get one outside the place....you are basically on ur own.
4. Hospital Housing: to sum this might be a pro..to me it's a con...there is this new complex right next to the hospital....i mean it looks nice from the outside...but the rooms are small..and u pay alot of money for a simple room with simple furniture and when u pull ur curtain open u see the hospital..it's as if you never left..and most likely the ppl that are living next door are med students...and when you see them having more free time than you and drinking more beer....it affects you...

Overall:
I would go here because I think I would get a good education and be a good physician when I'm done. About fellowships....i'll worry about that when I get there..i'll make the most out of it and work hard for whatever I want. I mean nothing is easy in life...u have to earn it. I'll wear my bullet-proof vest when I go home after short call and run into my car and quickly lock my doors and hit the gas pedal to my nice apt in Hoboken...on the hill with the view of NYC. Im sure it will be a good experience....Also im an US-IMG...so beggers cant be choosers....definitely be in my top 3 or 4..still havent decided...i have till feb..so what's the rush

 

[BlahtoThis]

Responding to (2) under Cons

Everybody knows why the chair stepped down if you ask anybody outside the school. Nobody inside will tell you because they've been covering up for one another for over a decade and the corruption for which the chair took the fall involves a lot of people in every department. Of course, this doesn't involve you clinically unless you hope to be involved administratively and get more important/significant positions as faculty, so I wouldn't worry too much from a resident level. But I would never work there if you're an honest person looking to make a name for yourself because of your abilities (most of these people have left and the ones staying behind are either truly dedicated to the community and are great physicians or corrupt people with administrative positions who would be nothings elsewhere).

 

[Dr. ZZ]

it seems like this scandal within the internal medicine department is actually affecting the residency program as well. From now on, the scheduling will be different as less elective months are available and replaced with floor months or unit months. Where ever one goes for residency, always look into the reputation of the program/hospital. UMDNJ-Newark had a so-so reputation before the recent scandal costing the job of the chairman (the captain goes down with the ship, regardless if it was his fault or not). Now the reputation will only get worse. This program is on it's way to being malignant.

 

[Thaitanium]

it seems like this scandal within the internal medicine department is actually affecting the residency program as well. From now on, the scheduling will be different as less elective months are available and replaced with floor months or unit months. Where ever one goes for residency, always look into the reputation of the program/hospital. UMDNJ-Newark had a so-so reputation before the recent scandal costing the job of the chairman (the captain goes down with the ship, regardless if it was his fault or not). Now the reputation will only get worse. This program is on it's way to being malignant.

How will the scandal result in the program being malignant? Please clarify...

 

[Dr. ZZ]

well when they start taking away your elective months and replacing it with floor months...that's not sumthing that usually the residents are looking forward to. The program is going to be watched more closely by the ACGME and they will possibly change the accreditation status or duration of the program.....

 

[mig26x]

well when they start taking away your elective months and replacing it with floor months...that's not sumthing that usually the residents are looking forward to. The program is going to be watched more closely by the ACGME and they will possibly change the accreditation status or duration of the program.....

I saw a topic started by you where you ask to see how to rank some programs and UMDNJ is one of them. I think now you wont be ranking them?

 

[SkidRow]

Dr. Z, I am very familiar with UMDNJ-NJMS. Where did you get your information regarding the electives cut? That is not something I have ever come across, on the contrary, it seems that residents have great elective opportunities. The only negative regarding the scandal I heard is that the students of the NJMS school will have their tuition raised. Other than that, good things are happening including renovations of the hospital. I respectfully must disagree with your allegations. Personally speaking, the residency there seems very well structured and the variety of hospitals (Hackensack included) seems to give you strong connections and a great learning opportunity.

 

[Dr. ZZ]

i have sources within the program...but with everything u hear or read about in life...u take it with a grain of salt....u dont have to agree with me...but im just telling u what i've been hearing....so it's up to you

 

[SkidRow]

Fair enough, I do still think the program is rather strong and is no where near malignant due its great house staff. Work is work..

 

[daisyage]

i'm a current MS3 and had to reply. The Medicine Program is strong for a number of reasons: excellent PD, dedicated teaching attending, incredible pathology.

The scandal is primarily involving the hospital double-billing medicare, however, to put this in perspective, the amount overbilled was ~5milion, and there are numerous other hospitals in the US who have doublebilled or overbilled for far more (St. Barnabus in NJ overbilled for at least 10x that amount).

The Chair of Medicine is taking the fall for some shady dealing that went down many moons ago. Result, the faculty is showing solidarity. No one is fleeing the school or hospital.

I haven't heard any fallout regarding less elective time or any change in the program. Knowing the PD, I doubt that she would allow ANY change that would detract from the educational experience. As far as the ACGME is concerned, the investigation is pretty much on central administration of the hospital, not the medical school.

I am seriously considering staying here for residency. At least I know the people here want to be here for the right reasons.

 

[SkidRow]

daisyage, thanks for your input, very insightful, knowing the program myself, i agree with you. brick city lives.

 

[mig26x]

I was their for an interview a couple of days ago and felt like the program is a very good one. PD is wonderful and the Hospital is expanding.

 

[touchstonemedic]

I hope the people who are praising UMDNJ-Newark will find themselves working in that program. I am speaking from personal experience, I finished the residency program there. The PD is two-faced. During the interview she will promise you the world, once you start it's all over. She is very vindictive and your first few weeks there will set the mood for all three years. The program is full of residents who are stabbing each other in the back and the punishment is very selective. It is absolutely true that the elective time is cut and when you are on elective you will more than likely be pulled to do the floors. If you have a month elective you will spend two full weekends covering the floor or overnight ICU. The PD was smart enough to make the intern year slightly lighter to intice the new interns. Hey, during the interview who asks about 2nd and 3rd year, everyone cares how their 1st year will go. During your 3rd year, while doing every single medicine consult you are also responsible for every single medicine admission that comes through ER and gets transferred to the floor, and this is an overnight call. You will be running around, while your night float intern sleeps. This is approximately 10 new consults and 20-30 admissions/transfers in a 24 hr period. And the chiefs are no longer responsible to distribute the patients, it is your job to find where to stuff these patients since the admitting team only takes 10. If something happens to one of the patients, it is your a$$ on the line. And yes we have M&M conferences, the surgical type, not "let's all hug each other and learn from this mistake" type. You will get great inpatient training because of the volume of work and learning how to be very efficient in the most inefficient environment. But it will only prepare you to become a hospitalist, and you will most likely become a hospitalist, since that's what people from this program become. During interview, ask how many people staying for cards, gi, allergy are chiefs, answer all of them. How many get spots outside, answer, last year two. One person got cards in GA despite PD. He was her enemy number one, in fact she told him that he will not get cardiology, what a spit in the face. The other person got GI in WV, the program just opened up and the lucky sob got it, he was also one of the very few american grads in the program. The other few american grads in the program are hospitalists now. And the medicare overbilling is not a small issue. It was all over local papers and NY Times. There are federal monitors reviewing the hospital and assuring compliance. The hospital tries to play down the seriousness by spreading rumors that private hospitals in the are are overbilling even more. That's not the case, they are not being investigated. The chief was fired because few years ago hospital paid private cardiologist all over NJ up to $150K to do nothing but refer their patients to UMDNJ for CABG, trying to save CT surgery program. That's illegal, and the cards chief at that time was against this. He was subsequently fired and blew the whistle on the whole enterprise. One of the local newspapers calls UMDNJ-Newark TSU, Tony Soprano University and the name suits. THE PROGRAM IS VERY MALIGNANT, STAY AWAY.

 

[Dr. ZZ]

wow...thanks for the truthful insight...
for those people that didn't believe me about the fact the program was changing for the worse...i guess u'll have a change of mind now...and it also brings up a good point...when u go for interviews...majority of applicants get blinded by the fake show that is put on by the staff to make the place seem good....so always do your own research and look into things very thoroughly...

 

[SkidRow]

Dear touchstonemedic, since you finished residency at UMDNJ, did you become a hospitalist as well? what did u go into, if you don't mind to share?

 

[touchstonemedic]

I am not a hospitalist and I would rather not say what I am doing now since it will reveal who I am, but I am very happy with my career, DESPITE UMDNJ. Given what I've been through during my three years in Newark I would like to remain anonymous. Jo-Ann is very vindictive and I don't want to make more enemies.

Dear touchstonemedic, since you finished residency at UMDNJ, did you become a hospitalist as well? what did u go into, if you don't mind to share?

 

[neurofx]

I just interviewed there last week. The PD did mention the medicare/medicaid double billing issue and how she agreed they were screwing up and doing something wrong, but have now fixed it. I also came straight out and asked my interviewer (pulm/critical care director) about the current situation and he seemed honest about what he was saying, or at least thought what he was saying was true. He said the cards program was hit the hardest, and that there shouldn't be much if any trickle down that would effect the medicine program. He said that because of all the recent news some of their top picks for applicants have bailed out and so they may not get the same level of residents for the next few years that they have gotten in the previous years. I'm not completely sure about how I feel about the program, and my issue is that they didn't give me any feedback whatsoever about my chances to match there. For many this wouldn't be a big deal, but since I am currently participating in the osteopathic match and the allopathic match, it's complicated. I'm looking at St. Michael's in Newark just down the street from UMDNJ, which has a dual accredited program but participates in the osteo match. They've already given me the feedback I need. Then there's UMDNJ, which is my pick for the allopathic match, but they haven't given me any clue like St. Michael's did. I have about no days left to decide whether or not to pull out of the osteopathic match for St. Michael's to stay in the match for UMDNJ, where I have no clue what my chances are but I think I would prefer to go there over St. Michael's. It would be nice if they gave me a rough idea so I know where I stand. This sucks.

 

[Unty]

Just got back from the interview there. I had a bad vibe about the place when I left. Everyone interviewing that day were mostly FMGs. You always have to suspect something when they pack 20 applicants in one small room. Residents were also in the conference room answering questions, so it got really crowded. Most of the applicants spoke to the PD for 30 seconds. The folder they gave you didn't seem like they put much time into it and wasn't very informative (as compared to another University program I went to).

Seems as if you will see a lot of pathology there. I received some sarcastic remarks during the day. The residents I met didnt look miserable. I wouldn't be surprised if the comments above by touchstonemedic were true.

Well, just wanted to give an impression of my brief interview day there.

 

[neurofx]

I didn't even get to talk to the PD. There was quite a crowd when I was there last week too. Did they give you any info about your chances for the match? Is it just their style to keep everyone in the dark, or am I just a loser.

 

[Thaitanium]

Most places I interviewed at did not tell me about my chances to match. The PD just asked about certain parts of your application that she had questions about.

 

[bigtony99]

Hey man;
I'm not trying to be mean or anything but NO-WHERE I've interviewed at has told me where I'm going to be ranked. They can get in trouble for that kind of a thing, plus whose to say when they've interviewed you that they even know where they're going to put you, what if they get a whole load of stellar candidates after you or vice versa. I know you're in a jam because of the osteo-match but you can't expect that from programs.

I'm not going to say much about this UMDNJ-Newark program except that if you want to go there, expect to work. It's not a lazy-persons program. touchstonemedic who graduated from the program is probably not lying. But realize that there's 40 IM residents + 4 med/peds residents per year. Not everyone has that same opinion or it would be all over this website.

 

[neurofx]

Actually about half the places I interviewed got back to me the next week and told me straight out. Others just more or less hinted or said they liked me. If you read all the rules and regs, they are allowed to tell you, and you are allowed to tell them whatever you want, as long as you watch the wording. As long as neither party requests that sort of information from the other party and it's just offered information, it's fine. Also, they are not allowed to promise anything or say promise (even though places are doing that). They can say, something like highly likely, moderate, low, or if you rank us number one you will match here.

I also realize it's work there, but compared to some other nearby programs it's not that much different. I know programs where all you do 2nd and 3rd year is ICU overnight call q 3 and since you're always postcall you never learn anything. I haven't disagreed with anything said about the program thus far, but I'm also not seeing huge advantages of going to other nearby programs in comparison.

 

[bigtony99]

I guess everyone's gotta go somewhere. If that's how you really feel than that's it. Good luck.

 

[SkidRow]

I checked NRMP and it says 19 categorical spots. Do you guys know if this is the total number, or some prematches have been given out? How many spots usually for categorical per year. (Touchstonemedic maybe you know?). Thanks guys.

 

[mig26x]

I checked NRMP and it says 19 categorical spots. Do you guys know if this is the total number, or some prematches have been given out? How many spots usually for categorical per year. (Touchstonemedic maybe you know?). Thanks guys.

In their webpage it says 25 categorical, it seems they have given out 6 pre-matches.

 

[SkidRow]

Previously (a few months back), the NRMP still said 19. I guess they give 6 pre-matches every year. It seems like it is 25, but it's not a definite number, it says on the website that they "expect" to have 25. Good Luck guys.

 

[Botafogo]

You wrote: "The PD is two-faced. During the interview she will promise you the world, once you start it's all over. She is very vindictive and your first few weeks there will set the mood for all three years. The program is full of residents who are stabbing each other in the back and the punishment is very selective."

I also recently graduated from the IM program there. I'm not a big fan of the PD, but I did not have any problem with her. It's sad to see how badly she and the rest of the residents are portrayed by touchstonemedic! Perhaps something personal happened to him that we don't know, but if you'd asked the residents at least while I was there, over 90% of them (and there are 123 residents total) would disagree with him.

I'll just give you one example - in fact of the Cardiology Fellow you mentioned in your post who matched in Georgia. This scumbag hated everyone in the Program, and spoke openly about his dislikes. He clearly thought he was better than everyone, and did not hide this. He himself graduated from some unknown medical school in Hungary, but talked about how having IMGs was a bad aspect of the Program. Despite all this, PD supported him all the way. (I'm not sure if she in fact told him he wouldn't get into UMDNJ's Cardiology Program; even if she did, she did the right thing - no one wanted this low-life to continue in our hospital.) But he obviously couldn't have gotten his fellowship without the help of PD. All she had to do was make a phone call and inform the prospective fellowship program how unprofessional he was.

What more, she even did him a huge favor by hiring his wife into the Program although she didn't match the normal way (she scrambled), just so that the couple could be together.

This is not the trait of a "two-faced" and "vindictive" person. It's hurtful to see my ex-PD getting maligned like that. Personally my interaction with her was minimal throughout the 3 years - would exchange hellos in hallways, but whenever I needed anything she would help out immediately (Letters, making phone calls, etc.).

That's all for today! Hope this helps.

 

[Grand Anse]

I am so freakin confused after your posting Botafogo. I am a NJ resident who went to the Caribbean for med school. I like UMDNJ a lot after visiting and interviewing. The residents seemed genuinely happy about being there, so I can get where Botafogo is coming from....but in light of Touchstone/Dr ZZ saying that the place sucks and I will die upon matching makes me totally confused. I mean Touchstone said the place was hard...but ****, which residency is easy? Plus he got to where he wanted to be in life ("very happy with my career"). Thats all I care about in the end.

Dude....Botafogo please explain a little more. I don't want my journey to being "very happy with my career" to be miserable (and contain death) if I end up matching there.

Thanks Man.

- Grand Anse

 

[FaceReality]

Grand Anse,
Dude, I wouldn't worry. You are from NJ, so you already have the happiness thing covered 50% more than others. You went on the interview and you judged the program for yourself. So trust your judgement. Ultimately, there is only so much a program can do for you. You have to see what you personally can make of the residency program. Do you feel it will help you get to where you want to be? If so, you're good to go.

 

[Botafogo]

Grand Anse: Don't be confused with my post. I was just replying to the (quite unusual) allegations by touchstonemedic. And I believe the sentiments I expressed were what you would expected from a 'normal/average' resident.

Anyway, I liked my time at UMDNJ-Newark. What I liked the most was the dedication of the faculty - they were fully committed to teaching, assisting and mentoring. The 2nd best aspect is to have a medical school on the campus - which is invaluable, not only to have access to their research, etc., but to also have the opportunity to teach 3rd and 4th year students.

There is a fairly large group of foreign grads in the program, who are generally very bright. For comparison, in my class of 37 residents, 14 were US grads, the rest IMGs.

If you are interested in fellowship, we generally have done okay (depends on your defiinition of okay, I guess). You don't necessarily have to be a Chief for the fellowship either in-house or if you go outside. Out of the 30 residents (without the Chiefs), 14 people got fellowships. If you count the Chiefs that's 20 of 37 residents - so more than 50%. Remember not everyone wants to do fellowship. Honestly, I think primary care is the wave of the future, and many of the fellowships are often over-glorified.

I wish you all the luck. If you have any specific questions, write back in the forum, and I'll try to answer them from a recent graduate's POV.