Does anyone know how much oral and maxillofacial surgeons make?

carn311

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I just recently became interested in this field and considering the incredible investment necessary (DDS and MD) I would like to know just how much money they make.

Also:

Are there any programs where you can work toward your DDS and MD at the same time?

And how competative is the oral surgery residency (MD residency component) that I must get into after my DDS? What kind of grades do I need in dental school?


Thanks guys...
 

ItsGavinC

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Oral surgeons made an average of $336,000 in 2001, according to the ADA's 2002 Survey of Dentistry. Those numbers have probably increased since then.

I don't know of any programs where you can work on your DDS and MD at the same time.

Oral surgery is competitive, and certain programs will be far more competitive than others (the OMS residents can fill you in on all of this). And interestingly, the 6-year programs (where the MD is earned) are not as competitive as the 4-year ones (where no MD is earned). This is probably attributed to students having done 4 years of dental school, and the prospect of another 6 years looking much worse than doing only another 4. It's only two years, but it probably feels like an eternity. That, coupled with the fact that there isn't really a difference in scope of practice.

There's a great group of OMS residents and dental students pursuing OMS that frequent SDN, so I'll let them correct my errors and handle all of your questions.
 

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6 year OMFS residencies are far more competitive than 4 year programs for the most part. If you take a look at "the best" OMFS residencies in the country, they are all 6 years (Oregon, UCSF, LSU, Alabama, Parkland, Pitt, LIJ, UConn, Columbia, Penn, etc...) These are among the toughest programs in the nation to get into. 4 year programs are competitive, but there is no medical school admissions cut off involved. There are 4 year programs out there that are amazing and definately better than some 6 year programs, but I would not say that is the norm.

Thanks
 

toofache32

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Believe it or not, I have no idea what they make, but that ADA average is probably pretty accurate. Like most specialties, there is a huge range. The oral surgeon who collected teeth for me while I was in dental school showed me his bank books...He was in practice 5 years and deposited 1.3M that year with about 30% overhead. You can do the math. He was the only oral surgeon in a small town (about 30,000) and was raking it in in solo practice. But that's pretty extraordinary.

U of Kentucky had a 5-year DDS/MD program (or DMD?) about 8 or 9 years ago in which they gave it a trial run with a few students. It was basically 4 years of dental school plus the 3rd year of med school. You took the medical boards about the same time you took the dental boards. They canned the program, probably due to lack of interest. An MD really has no utility for a general dentist, and a DDS really doesn't help an physician because these are 2 completely separate health care fields as far as practicing goes. It might have benefited people wanting to do oral surgery, but 6-year programs are already integrated with med school, and you would really throw a wrench into your schedule if you already had the MD. And going to a 4-year program with an MD already in your pocket wouldn't be useful because you have to do a 1-year post-MD internship year to get a medical license, which would really give you a 5-year residency. This, plus 5 years of dental/med degree school still gives 10 years...the same required for 4 years of dental school and 6 years of residency.
 

toofache32

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OMFSdoc said:
6 year OMFS residencies are far more competitive than 4 year programs for the most part. If you take a look at "the best" OMFS residencies in the country, they are all 6 years (Oregon, UCSF, LSU, Alabama, Parkland, Pitt, LIJ, UConn, Columbia, Penn, etc...) These are among the toughest programs in the nation to get into. 4 year programs are competitive, but there is no medical school admissions cut off involved. There are 4 year programs out there that are amazing and definately better than some 6 year programs, but I would not say that is the norm.

Thanks
Sort of off-topic, but I think it's interesting which programs you list as "the best". It really depends on what you are looking for. Columbia is mainly dentoalveolar and orthognathics, according to my interview a few years back and according to my 4 co-residents who went to dental school there. But it could have changed since then. Oregon I wasn't so sure about. It seemed like the fellow did all the big/good cases there and the residents were left to round on the patients. In all honesty, my program is probably not as strong as it was 10 years ago because of some faculty retirements, but we're hiring 2 new guys in the near future.
 

OMFSdoc

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toofache32 said:
Sort of off-topic, but I think it's interesting which programs you list as "the best". It really depends on what you are looking for. Columbia is mainly dentoalveolar and orthognathics, according to my interview a few years back and according to my 4 co-residents who went to dental school there. But it could have changed since then. Oregon I wasn't so sure about. It seemed like the fellow did all the big/good cases there and the residents were left to round on the patients. In all honesty, my program is probably not as strong as it was 10 years ago because of some faculty retirements, but we're hiring 2 new guys in the near future.

You are right "the best" is definately a relative term. However, those programs always seem to be competitive and usually land on their feet when $#!t hits the fan. For example, your program (Parkland I believe) may not be as good as it was 10 yrs ago like you said, but it will always be Parkland. It will always attract both bright faculty and applicants. Maybe Oregon should be scratched off the list and LSU can be added (from what I hear, that place is becomming very good).
 

zidanereal2003

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OMFSdoc said:
You are right "the best" is definately a relative term. However, those programs always seem to be competitive and usually land on their feet when $#!t hits the fan. For example, your program (Parkland I believe) may not be as good as it was 10 yrs ago like you said, but it will always be Parkland. It will always attract both bright faculty and applicants. Maybe Oregon should be scratched off the list and LSU can be added (from what I hear, that place is becomming very good).
Several faculty I know say good things about LSU. All of them agree it is a great program.
 

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zidanereal2003 said:
Several faculty I know say good things about LSU. All of them agree it is a great program.
It's pretty good :D (both of them in my opinion)
 

north2southOMFS

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OMFSdoc said:
6 year OMFS residencies are far more competitive than 4 year programs for the most part. If you take a look at "the best" OMFS residencies in the country, they are all 6 years (Oregon, UCSF, LSU, Alabama, Parkland, Pitt, LIJ, UConn, Columbia, Penn, etc...) These are among the toughest programs in the nation to get into. 4 year programs are competitive, but there is no medical school admissions cut off involved. There are 4 year programs out there that are amazing and definately better than some 6 year programs, but I would not say that is the norm.

Thanks

I don't know if i buy what you said about 6 year programs being "far" more competative than 4's. Sure the select few you mentioned might be but for the other less known programs i don't believe this to be true. When i was interviewing I think far more people apply'd to the 4 year programs becasue they don't have all the prerequisites for grades and such. i believe there are about half and half roughly 4 to 6 year programs out there, but many more 4 year applicants...so in my limited statistics that puts the 4 year programs more competative.

I could be wrong though.
 

toofache32

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north2southOMFS said:
I don't know if i buy what you said about 6 year programs being "far" more competative than 4's. Sure the select few you mentioned might be but for the other less known programs i don't believe this to be true. When i was interviewing I think far more people apply'd to the 4 year programs becasue they don't have all the prerequisites for grades and such. i believe there are about half and half roughly 4 to 6 year programs out there, but many more 4 year applicants...so in my limited statistics that puts the 4 year programs more competative.

I could be wrong though.
I was thinking the same thing, at least from my experience.
 

adamlc18

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north2southOMFS said:
I don't know if i buy what you said about 6 year programs being "far" more competative than 4's. Sure the select few you mentioned might be but for the other less known programs i don't believe this to be true. When i was interviewing I think far more people apply'd to the 4 year programs becasue they don't have all the prerequisites for grades and such. i believe there are about half and half roughly 4 to 6 year programs out there, but many more 4 year applicants...so in my limited statistics that puts the 4 year programs more competative.

I could be wrong though.
North2South,

When you say they don't have the all the prereqs for grades and such, are you talking about their dental school grades, or are you talking about their undergrad grades? What is the typical requirement for grades? Thanks.
 

ItsGavinC

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toofache32 said:
I was thinking the same thing, at least from my experience.
And I posted my original info from what you guys have said in the past regarding 4-year vs. 6-year programs. :)
 

north2southOMFS

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adamlc18 said:
North2South,

When you say they don't have the all the prereqs for grades and such, are you talking about their dental school grades, or are you talking about their undergrad grades? What is the typical requirement for grades? Thanks.

Both, for the which grades question.

as for prereqs, usually a 90% on boards and in the top 10% of your class for rank (the rank one is more variable though). GPA doesnt mean squat (b/c some schools give you a 4.0 in your junior and senior year for just showing up and doing your requirements). Some also might have a prereq for some research or something, but that is more variable also.
 

adamlc18

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north2southOMFS said:
Both, for the which grades question.

as for prereqs, usually a 90% on boards and in the top 10% of your class for rank (the rank one is more variable though). GPA doesnt mean squat (b/c some schools give you a 4.0 in your junior and senior year for just showing up and doing your requirements). Some also might have a prereq for some research or something, but that is more variable also.
So are you saying that in general, the 4 yr programs have lower grade requirements to be considered for an interview?
 

brycethefatty

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It always seems to me that people that want to specialize and be an OMFS, the first thing they want to know is how much they can make. It just seems sad to me that money would be a good enough reason to be a OMFS. I shadowed for an OMFS in the California for a week and he makes about 800,000 gross per year and keeps about half of that after expenses. He's pretty quick about letting you know, regardless whether you ask or not. The thing that is he doesn't tell you is that he's been divorced twice because he had to work extremely long hours during school, through his 6 year residency, and for about 10 years after that to build up his practice. It seems that most of these kids that "want" to be OMFS want it for the money. I say, wait until you are in dental school, see what you like, and then go for it.
 

UNLV OMS GUNNABE

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Are you basing your assumption on posts from this thread and one OMS you know? Because it really sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. There are a lot easier ways in dentistry to make money.
 
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carn311

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brycethefatty said:
It always seems to me that people that want to specialize and be an OMFS, the first thing they want to know is how much they can make. It just seems sad to me that money would be a good enough reason to be a OMFS. I shadowed for an OMFS in the California for a week and he makes about 800,000 gross per year and keeps about half of that after expenses. He's pretty quick about letting you know, regardless whether you ask or not. The thing that is he doesn't tell you is that he's been divorced twice because he had to work extremely long hours during school, through his 6 year residency, and for about 10 years after that to build up his practice. It seems that most of these kids that "want" to be OMFS want it for the money. I say, wait until you are in dental school, see what you like, and then go for it.

To be quite honest my question actually had very little to do with wealth...

I view college, at the graduate level especially, as an investment that should have a return.

Actually, you have already voiced my next concern...the time requirement. I am already married and love my wife very much. I am searching for a stable, financially and personally rewarding career, that will allow me to spend time with my family.
 

north2southOMFS

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carn311 said:
I just recently became interested in this field and considering the incredible investment necessary (DDS and MD) I would like to know just how much money they make.

Thanks guys...

My brothers friends sisters gynecologist said they make 4 million a year. And only work 2 days a week.
 

ItsGavinC

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carn311 said:
I am searching for a stable, financially and personally rewarding career, that will allow me to spend time with my family.
In that case, choosing dentistry as a profession was an excellent choice. OMS, however, may be ranked in the lower rung by many people as far as quality of life goes. This depends on what you choose to do with your degree, however.
 

Energon

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I second gavin. The lifestyle of an OMFS is just as bad as any other surgical specialty. If you want an to pursue OMS just for the MD, you are better off applying straight to medical school to have a better success at pursuing the dream (statistically speaking)..... waaaaaaaaay more med school spots than 6yr MD OMFS spots and shrinking (my school cut down from 3 spots to 1)

For a person who already has a family, dentistry is a great proffession. Also specialties like Endo, Ortho and Peds have very high incomes equivalent to if not more than OMS specialists which requires a lot less training and a much better lifestyle.

I would advice you to really take a closer look at dentistry as a career. If you think that even being a general dentist will make you happy, then go for it.... however, if the MD is still very important to you, apply to med school.
 

KY2007

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The lifestyles of the oms that I know are not bad at all. Sure the residency is tough but after that its not that much different than the lifestyle of a general dentist as far a time goes. You can still work three days a week if you want to. You don't have to take call at the hospital if you don't want to and if you do, often its not that bad. One of the guys that I shadowed prior to dental school was only on call 5 weeks per year. Its all up to what you want.
 

OMFSdoc

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So the question about 4 vs. 6 yr. competitiveness seems to have 2 answers. If you are considering # of applicants, maybe the 4yrs. are more competitive. However, by stating that people don't apply to 6 yr programs because they don't have the prerequesite grades in the first place, that makes the 6 yr. programs more competitive. Hmmm.....
 

UDM or bust

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i worked for a surgery office in a fairly secluded area of the country - from their office, the closest office is over three hours away - they have patients crawling out of the woodword - booked over three months in the future - the main omfs makes well over a million a year and his partner is content just working and not being a partner and makes $300,000/year.