Does divorce before or during medschool change "price?"

[carl414]

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I have a close friend (I know you're thinking yeah right... but seriously it is) who is still finishing his prereqs (premed) classes and hopes to apply next year for medschool. After almost 10 years of marriage, there's a good chance the marriage wont survive much longer. His wife has begun threatening divorce. He has 2 kids: 8 & 6.

So far all the educational expenses have been covered by his student loans and grants while he still works. If he divorces before med school, he's responsible for child support at an amount based on his current income. However, if he waits hoping for marital recovery, and THEN ultimately divorces later while in medschool - does he become obligated after completion to pay a HUGE difference based on his EXPECTED income after residency? She works full time and has paid nothing into the education, just normal household expenses that a couple has.

He wants to protect HIS investment (after all he'd be responsible for the student loans, not her) and HIS future income - but also wants to give the benefit of the doubt and his marriage every chance at recovery... but not if it's going to cost him huge sums of money for the rest of his life because he waited hoping for the best.

Have any of you divorced just before or during medschool and then had to pay alimony or child support based on your FUTURE expected income? Or is it protected as it's considered a personal (after the marriage) investment?

 

[cabinbuilder]

I'm on the flip side since I am the mom who became the doctor and I got the kids. My divorce was final 6 months before I went to medical school. As far as I understand the ex party cannot expect to gain benefit from a medical education if that was completed after the divorce was final. You can't go back 8 years later as say "by the way I want more alimony now". I am not sure about child support though. I believe that is based on income and that can be changed in court if one wants to go through the hassle. But eight years down the road after residency will it really be worth it when the kids will be graduated or close to it? I actually just gave up my child support because my exhusband is super poor and what he paid me didn't even cover groceries so I don't bother with it anymore.

Bottom line, if you are getting a divorce, be sure it is stipulated in the divorce that should he become a doctor with a large income, he cannot be taken back to court for more money after the fact. I did that in my divorce before I even started medical school.

 

[ShyRem]

It depends on the state. Some states, the other party wouldn't be entitled to alimony on a doctor's salary since the divorce was final before he earned his doctorate degree. Other states, the other party might be viewed as "supporting the doctor through his schooling" even if the divorce went through during med school... he/she still supported the blooming physician during a good portion of their education. They may thus be entitled to a percentage of any and/or all future earnings.

I would ask a good divorce lawyer who is licensed in the state your friend resides.

 

[kia ora]

I certainly can understand your friend not wanting to pay alimony based on his expected future income, but...child support? seriously? it disgusts me when parents try to find ways around paying the support their children need and deserve. it often disgusts the courts, too

 

[EdLongshanks]

Have any of you divorced just before or during medschool and then had to pay alimony or child support based on your FUTURE expected income? Or is it protected as it's considered a personal (after the marriage) investment?

This is truly none of my business and I know nothing about the economics of divorce. But, just on general principles, I wish that your friend would stop thinking about how much it might cost him to give his marriage every chance. If I were his friend, I would talk to him about how much better of a doctor, a resident, and even a medical student he can be because of a wife's support.

Like I said, none of my business, and I don't know he circumstances, but unless she's unfaithful or slapping him around, I sure wish he'd really really try to put her first - no matter what the cost. That's the meaning of the word "committment"

 

[carl414]

I certainly can understand your friend not wanting to pay alimony based on his expected future income, but...child support? seriously? it disgusts me when parents try to find ways around paying the support their children need and deserve. it often disgusts the courts, too

Whoever suggested that he didn't want to pay child support? He's known all along that he would pay and is quite willing to pay a reasonable rate. Isn't child support supposed to be based on what the child needs? I know many families living on $3000 supporting 4 total people - and quite comfortably too: 3 bedroom 2 bath home, 2 paid for (but nice) cars, and 2 week long family vacations each year.

So how can you say that (an ortho surgeon acquaintance of his has just finished paying this for over 10 years hence his concern) someone should have to pay over $5500 a month for child support for just 2 children?! When they were married (8 years) he was making 1/10th of his current income... There's nothing reasonable about that. That's seems like a gross distortion of the courts' discretion. Children don't cost more because you significantly make more... they cost more because they cost more. But the court in this case finds it just the opposite - sickening perversion of justice if you ask me. The best answer would be to split EVERY expense that a child incurs EVENLY between the two parents.

This is truly none of my business and I know nothing about the economics of divorce. But, just on general principles, I wish that your friend would stop thinking about how much it might cost him to give his marriage every chance. If I were his friend, I would talk to him about how much better of a doctor, a resident, and even a medical student he can be because of a wife's support.

Like I said, none of my business, and I don't know he circumstances, but unless she's unfaithful or slapping him around, I sure wish he'd really really try to put her first - no matter what the cost. That's the meaning of the word "committment"

My friend does want to work things out, he's made that clear. But she's the one threatening to leave. He's only interested in protecting himself from more pain and expense than he must. It's like a bully threatening to pound you each day, so you learn tai qwan do to defend yourself should you need to.

Thanks for your input - I'll be emailing him this thread. Please keep the input coming - this is not a one faceted question.

 

[AGLAIA]

I know in my state, child support is based on total income (at a minimum of full-time minimum wage--if, say, one of the parents is unemployed) and the percentage each parent represents. For instance, if Parent A makes $200 per month and Parent B makes $250 per month, the total income of $450 would put the family into X bracket. Then if parent A is ordered to pay child support, they pay 200/450 of the combined X value the parents are supposed to be jointly responsible. Then there is deductions for number of overnight visits ordered, health insurance provided, child care expenses paid, etc... Here is it dependent on the current income and can be adjusted as necessary if one of the parents wants to go back into court. Also, (I think) step-parent income is not accessible.

Nobody should get stingy about their child support. They're one's kids regardless of the circumstances/career/marital status. If your friend stays married, the kids are gonna get the benefit of the education; in the eyes of the court, the same should happen if the marriage dissolves.

 

[carl414]

If your friend stays married, the kids are gonna get the benefit of the education; in the eyes of the court, the same should happen if the marriage dissolves.

I can understand this if he was already in Med school, but at this point it's only an idea. He's still finishing his undergrad degree - which she already has. But you're saying because he's expressed an interest in becoming a doctor and might pursue that after the potential divorce - he's now responsible for providing like one?

 

[AGLAIA]

I can understand this if he was already in Med school, but at this point it's only an idea. He's still finishing his undergrad degree - which she already has. But you're saying because he's expressed an interest in becoming a doctor and might pursue that after the potential divorce - he's now responsible for providing like one?

No, I'm saying if/when the income is in hand, he will potentially need to pay more from that point forth...depending on the state law.

I can't speak to how alimony works, but I doubt he'd have to pay out now for money yet to be earned.

 

[EdLongshanks]

No, I'm saying if/when the income is in hand, he will potentially need to pay more from that point forth...depending on the state law.

I can't speak to how alimony works, but I doubt he'd have to pay out now for money yet to be earned.

Wouldn't a person who was making good money want his children's main home to be reasonably prosperous - even if he weren't living there himself? In our society, much of their social standing is partially dependent on their family's prosperity. This may not be right, but its true, and my children's teenage years aren't the time to buck the system.

 

[AGLAIA]

Wouldn't a person who was making good money want his children's main home to be reasonably prosperous - even if he weren't living there himself? In our society, much of their social standing is partially dependent on their family's prosperity. This may not be right, but its true, and my children's teenage years aren't the time to buck the system.

Is that directed at me? I agree totally as I stated above:

Nobody should get stingy about their child support. They're one's kids regardless of the circumstances/career/marital status. If your friend stays married, the kids are gonna get the benefit of the education; in the eyes of the court, the same should happen if the marriage dissolves.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Is that directed at me? I agree totally as I stated above:

It was a general comment not directed at anyone.

 

[cold steel]

Wouldn't a person who was making good money want his children's main home to be reasonably prosperous - even if he weren't living there himself? In our society, much of their social standing is partially dependent on their family's prosperity. This may not be right, but its true, and my children's teenage years aren't the time to buck the system.

You watch to much "Leave It To Beaver"
Hell No, I wouldn't want to pay for for my ex wife and her new husband to live "reasonably prosperous" on money I had worked so hard to earn. How would you feel if your husband was smacking you around or whatever, then divorces you, takes your children, shacks up with another woman in a nice beautiful home etc. etc. and says, oh by the way you need to also start sending a third of your income over here so we can live "reasonbly prosperous" without you

 

[cold steel]

I have a close friend (I know you're thinking yeah right... but seriously it is) who is still finishing his prereqs (premed) classes and hopes to apply next year for medschool. After almost 10 years of marriage, there's a good chance the marriage wont survive much longer. His wife has begun threatening divorce. He has 2 kids: 8 & 6.

So far all the educational expenses have been covered by his student loans and grants while he still works. If he divorces before med school, he's responsible for child support at an amount based on his current income. However, if he waits hoping for marital recovery, and THEN ultimately divorces later while in medschool - does he become obligated after completion to pay a HUGE difference based on his EXPECTED income after residency? She works full time and has paid nothing into the education, just normal household expenses that a couple has.

He wants to protect HIS investment (after all he'd be responsible for the student loans, not her) and HIS future income - but also wants to give the benefit of the doubt and his marriage every chance at recovery... but not if it's going to cost him huge sums of money for the rest of his life because he waited hoping for the best.

Have any of you divorced just before or during medschool and then had to pay alimony or child support based on your FUTURE expected income? Or is it protected as it's considered a personal (after the marriage) investment?

The best advice I can give, (And I am currently married), your buddy better end this thing before he starts medical school. That type of stress on top of medical school, he won't have to worry about a future income because he'll never make it through medical school. Medical School will exponentially compound stress, and if there was now cushion to begin with in the marriage, it will never last- I don't care how smart he is.

 

[dotdash]

His child support will change with his income, so he can't avoid (nor should he try - see other comments) supporting his kids in the style to which they would be entitled if he were still married. Alimony is a different and more complicated story.

But the bottom line is, as it always is when there are legal issues, is -- he should see a lawyer specializing in this area of the law.

 

[EdLongshanks]

You watch to much "Leave It To Beaver"
Hell No, I wouldn't want to pay for for my ex wife and her new husband to live "reasonably prosperous" on money I had worked so hard to earn. How would you feel if your husband was smacking you around or whatever, then divorces you, takes your children, shacks up with another woman in a nice beautiful home etc. etc. and says, oh by the way you need to also start sending a third of your income over here so we can live "reasonbly prosperous" without you

I LIVE "Leave it to Beaver" so it's probable that I do not understand other people's situation. I admit the weakness.

 

[flip26]

I have a close friend (I know you're thinking yeah right... but seriously it is) who is still finishing his prereqs (premed) classes and hopes to apply next year for medschool. After almost 10 years of marriage, there's a good chance the marriage wont survive much longer. His wife has begun threatening divorce. He has 2 kids: 8 & 6.

So far all the educational expenses have been covered by his student loans and grants while he still works. If he divorces before med school, he's responsible for child support at an amount based on his current income. However, if he waits hoping for marital recovery, and THEN ultimately divorces later while in medschool - does he become obligated after completion to pay a HUGE difference based on his EXPECTED income after residency? She works full time and has paid nothing into the education, just normal household expenses that a couple has.

He wants to protect HIS investment (after all he'd be responsible for the student loans, not her) and HIS future income - but also wants to give the benefit of the doubt and his marriage every chance at recovery... but not if it's going to cost him huge sums of money for the rest of his life because he waited hoping for the best.

Have any of you divorced just before or during medschool and then had to pay alimony or child support based on your FUTURE expected income? Or is it protected as it's considered a personal (after the marriage) investment?

Seriously, he needs to get his advice from a competent lawyer, not from SDN through you...too state dependent

 

[sumstorm]

Sounds like if he spent as much time trying to work on the marriage as he is on trying to get to his future without the burden of potential extra costs he might not have to worry about the divorce.

There is way too much that goes into both alimony and child support depending on who has contributed what for the past 10 years, what the reasons are for the divorce, what the state and local regulations are, who provides for the home/care/etc. It amazes me that he is worried about what he will have to PAY rather than how a divorce will affect his kids. How do you explain to your kids that you didn't give your marriage every chance possible because it wasn't convenient to you achieving your career aspirations and it might have taken more money out of your wallet?

 

[Crelal]

Child support is meant to keep children living in the same lifestyle they would have if their parents had stayed together. Period. For that reason, child support changes when income changes.

The one exception however, is when you are not employed, child support does not disappear. Society expects unemployed parents to continue contributing towards their child(ren)'s need, irregardless if they are unemployed because they were laid off, fired, incarcerated, or are a FT student.

Agreed that your friend should be focused on the effects a divorce will have on his children. Search PubMed for effects of divorce on children to find the information, make sure the papers reviewed are credible and focus on the age group (6 and 8 are very hard ages, as children are establishing and discovering their identity within their family at that age).

 

[Crelal]

Sorry, forgot two other points:

1. Consult an attorney to get the real information.

2. Seriously, your friend needs to work on their marriage- marriage is not a sprint, it is the marathon of all marathons. If you are going to take off after a bad stretch (and there is not abuse/cheating/other extremes involved), you were never truly committed to the principle in the first place.

 

[EdLongshanks]

You watch to much "Leave It To Beaver"
Hell No, I wouldn't want to pay for for my ex wife and her new husband to live "reasonably prosperous" on money I had worked so hard to earn. How would you feel if your husband was smacking you around or whatever, then divorces you, takes your children, shacks up with another woman in a nice beautiful home etc. etc. and says, oh by the way you need to also start sending a third of your income over here so we can live "reasonbly prosperous" without you

I don't know the OP; I don't know his situation; I don't know his kids or anything about them or their ages.

I only have a wish. I wish that people would do everything they could to stay together and love their husbands, their wives and their children.

I also have an expectation. I expect a father to put his children first. They should be supported in as comfortable a state as the father can make them. Enough other people have this expectation that we have given it the force of law. It's a good law and trying to find ways around it is not a sympathetic position.

 

[280224]

If his marriage is shaky now I don't know how it's going to last during med school. I don't know why his wife is threatening a divorce, but once he starts med school he's going to have less time to spend with his family and way more stress to deal with.

Divorce is an unfortunate occurrence, but love can't be forced between two people no matter how much good that will do for the kids.

 

[carl414]

So I thought I would update everyone with the information that has come to light.

Firstly, I can appreciate everyone's desire to see the marriage work for the sake of the children... of course that's their hopes too. But let's be realistic - over half of americans marriages end in divorce, so pretending that "just a little more work" will keep it is not always realistic. Presuming that my friends marriage will end in divorce - whether in the next 12 months or in the next 5 years - the question was intended to ask about how he can best protect himself from being taken advantage of - which we all know happens in today's courts systems.

That being said, he lives here in NV. and as for nevada child support laws it's based on a percentage of income based on # of children. So, for his two children he will be required to pay 25% of his income as child support. The important addition to that is there is a cap placed of $500 per child, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in which case it raises to $800 per child. For a newly emerged doctor with outrageous student loans this will be a godsend... else he might not be able to properly meet his other obligations as well.

As for his property and student loans, Nevada is a communal property state meaning half of everything belongs to each. Half the property, half the debt. Including student loans... which could get disturbingly complicated. He conceivably could saddle his ex with half his student debt - presuming he can show she benefited from it's acquisition. I'm not saying it would be right, but that is the law.

Anyway, I put this out there so that if others have this nagging thought about their marriage while considering med school- they might have some more information to consider. All the best.

 

[sumstorm]

If his marriage is shaky now I don't know how it's going to last during med school. I don't know why his wife is threatening a divorce, but once he starts med school he's going to have less time to spend with his family and way more stress to deal with.

Divorce is an unfortunate occurrence, but love can't be forced between two people no matter how much good that will do for the kids.

Maybe that simply means he needs to consider his CHILDREN as his HIGHEST priority, above his career aspirations. If he isn't able to do that, he shouldn't have had children in the first place. If he doesn't have time for a marriage and children now or during med school, how on earth is he going to have time for his children during med school, especially since he WILL need to contribute to the home they live in and another residence for himself (at least, that is my assumption if he is paying child support.) The cost to support two households is typically at least 150% greater than supporting one household. My husband and I have that experience now living apart....and hte financial strain is hard with a good income and mutual support.

I agree love can't be forced. I also know there is a difference between not loving someone and not devoting 100% of ones efforts to caring for a marriage/spouse/family.

 

[sumstorm]

As for his property and student loans, Nevada is a communal property state meaning half of everything belongs to each. Half the property, half the debt. Including student loans... which could get disturbingly complicated. He conceivably could saddle his ex with half his student debt - presuming he can show she benefited from it's acquisition. I'm not saying it would be right, but that is the law.

Anyway, I put this out there so that if others have this nagging thought about their marriage while considering med school- they might have some more information to consider. All the best.

I would be careful with this info; student loans are unique beasts in the debt world. Technically, it could swing the other way; if attending school can be shown to have drained the family coffers or detracted from the family or caused her to have to provide greater support, she can claim a reason to benefit from the fruition of the loans.

Student debts are one of the few debts that dies with the indebted individuals, so they are really hard to force on another individual even in a divorce, unless his debts were consolidated under her name. Quite a few judges will love seeing a wife's copy of this from SDN with the suggestion that their husband was part of this. Even anonymously, in family court, with the details (Nevada, kids ages, length of marriage) it could reflect badly, especially if any of this 'save my wallet from my family' attitude comes out.

 

[futureboy]

So I thought I would update everyone with the information that has come to light.

Firstly, I can appreciate everyone's desire to see the marriage work for the sake of the children... of course that's their hopes too. But let's be realistic - over half of americans marriages end in divorce, so pretending that "just a little more work" will keep it is not always realistic. Presuming that my friends marriage will end in divorce - whether in the next 12 months or in the next 5 years - the question was intended to ask about how he can best protect himself from being taken advantage of - which we all know happens in today's courts systems.

That being said, he lives here in NV. and as for nevada child support laws it's based on a percentage of income based on # of children. So, for his two children he will be required to pay 25% of his income as child support. The important addition to that is there is a cap placed of $500 per child, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in which case it raises to $800 per child. For a newly emerged doctor with outrageous student loans this will be a godsend... else he might not be able to properly meet his other obligations as well.

As for his property and student loans, Nevada is a communal property state meaning half of everything belongs to each. Half the property, half the debt. Including student loans... which could get disturbingly complicated. He conceivably could saddle his ex with half his student debt - presuming he can show she benefited from it's acquisition. I'm not saying it would be right, but that is the law.

Anyway, I put this out there so that if others have this nagging thought about their marriage while considering med school- they might have some more information to consider. All the best.

1. Like others have said, your friend needs to talk to an experienced divorce attorney licensed in NV, even if it means spending a couple of hundred dollars on a 1-2 hour consultation. I don't know how you, or he, would expect to get any meaningful information whatsoever on this forum.

2. If the wife is talking about divorce, she's probably made up her mind already. Maybe marriage counseling would help.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I agree love can't be forced. I also know there is a difference between not loving someone and not devoting 100% of ones efforts to caring for a marriage/spouse/family.

Thank you sumstorm. Ditto to that.

The original poster of this thread was only a friend of the man who was considering this. I'm hoping that I misunderstood his characterizaton of the husband's attitude toward the family.

If I had my way. Every husband would put his marriage and children first, before career aspirations, before education, before his hobbies, dreams, desires and even before himself without considering whether his wife was doing the same.

Of course, I don't have my way, and I don't have experience with being married to someone who has a different attitude than this. I only have this. It CAN work. You CAN put absolutely everything you have into a marriage and end up with more than you contributed. As Proverbs says, "There is that which scattereth and yet increaseth, and there is that which withholdeth more than is meet, and yet it tendeth to poverty."

 

[flip26]

Thank you sumstorm. Ditto to that.

The original poster of this thread was only a friend of the man who was considering this. I'm hoping that I misunderstood his characterizaton of the husband's attitude toward the family.

If I had my way. Every husband would put his marriage and children first, before career aspirations, before education, before his hobbies, dreams, desires and even before himself without considering whether his wife was doing the same.

Of course, I don't have my way, and I don't have experience with being married to someone who has a different attitude than this. I only have this. It CAN work. You CAN put absolutely everything you have into a marriage and end up with more than you contributed. As Proverbs says, "There is that which scattereth and yet increaseth, and there is that which withholdeth more than is meet, and yet it tendeth to poverty."

Going to med school - entering the long, dark tunnel of med school education and training - is ultimately a selfish endeavor best undertaken by young(er) and/or unattached applicants who are not responsible for the financial and emotional well being of spouses and children.

The path is littered with broken relationships, marriages and discarded families. Yes, some survive, but this thing is a meat grinder - just read the posts from residents to get some perspective.

 

[sumstorm]

Going to med school - entering the long, dark tunnel of med school education and training - is ultimately a selfish endeavor best undertaken by young(er) and/or unattached applicants who are not responsible for the financial and emotional well being of spouses and children.

The path is littered with broken relationships, marriages and discarded families. Yes, some survive, but this thing is a meat grinder - just read the posts from residents to get some perspective.

As you noted, there are marriages that survive as well. Maybe they are just too busy to post! I can post because this is fall break...otherwise, I do admit to seriously neglecting my husband. However, we prepared for this. we did counseling pre-emptively, we redefined how things work, and we settled on our commitment. I am not disagreeing, but it is possible with a spouse, if both are sharing goals and objectives and working together towards those.

Not saying it is possible for this couple...just disturbing that he is worried more about that his wallet is plumper after graduation than taking care of a commitment that he made. I hope his commitment to medicine is deeper than to his family.

He isn't even ACCEPTED to med school and is talking about throwing his relationship under a bus. The strange thing is that I honestly doubt being divorced and supporting children is any easier without the support of a spouse and a shared partnership. I doubt an ex-wife cares if you need to study this weekend if it is your weekend with the kids...and I doubt she is as willing to soften the news to the kids if he just happens to 'forget' their weekend. Also, he doens't know WHERE he will get in...and that could CHANGE how child support, alimony, etc works out. He is talking convenience.....and family, love, and med school aren't about convenience.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Going to med school - entering the long, dark tunnel of med school education and training - is ultimately a selfish endeavor best undertaken by young(er) and/or unattached applicants who are not responsible for the financial and emotional well being of spouses and children.

The path is littered with broken relationships, marriages and discarded families. Yes, some survive, but this thing is a meat grinder - just read the posts from residents to get some perspective.

You go much further than I intended. I put my wife and family first, but that doesn't mean I can't have a second priority that takes up a significant portion of my time.

 

[pdlaw2000]

I can tell you from experience of being a lawyer, my past clients who listened to thier "friends" rather than me, ended up unhappy with their results. Your friend needs to spend the money on a good lawyer who is well known in the Courts.

There in no problem in Divorce Court that cannot be cured by the promise of money, either now or in the future. In the end, it just comes down to the money, and there isn't a party that cannot be bought. If the marriage is on the rocks now it's not going to get any better, and the fact that it's being threatend is just the beginning of the end. The best advice for your friend is open the wallet, and bend over.. then you need to stay out of it.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I can tell you from experience of being a lawyer, my past clients who listened to thier "friends" rather than me, ended up unhappy with their results. Your friend needs to spend the money on a good lawyer who is well known in the Courts.

There in no problem in Divorce Court that cannot be cured by the promise of money, either now or in the future. In the end, it just comes down to the money, and there isn't a party that cannot be bought. If the marriage is on the rocks now it's not going to get any better, and the fact that it's being threatend is just the beginning of the end. The best advice for your friend is open the wallet, and bend over.. then you need to stay out of it.

If you are a divorce lawyer then you are much more experienced with breakups than I. Nevertheless, in my inexperience, I strongly disagree with the statement about a marriage that "the fact that it's being threatend is just the beginning of the end"

All marriages are threatened by something at some time. That's why the old marriage vows contained those wonderful words "for richer, for poorer, in sickness or in health, for better or for worse".

If my wife or I had thought that a threatened marriage was a doomed marriage then we wouldn't have been together 5 years - but this occasionally threatened and therefore doomed marriage will have it's 22nd anniversary next month.

 

[carl414]

if attending school can be shown to have drained the family coffers or detracted from the family or caused her to have to provide greater support, she can claim a reason to benefit from the fruition of the loans.

That's a good point sumstorm - but in his particular circumstances, he took out additional student loans that were used to pay current household bills (and he still works full time), etc. She is not paying for, or subsidizing his education - ALL tuition and fees are being paid through student loans/grants/scholarships which he has in his name alone. So while I agree that for some this could be shown - I think he's kept his schooling expenses separate enough (like a spouse might with an inheritance which is also protected through divorce if shown to be kept separate.)

...just disturbing that he is worried more about that his wallet is plumper after graduation than taking care of a commitment that he made. I hope his commitment to medicine is deeper than to his family.

This is a poor judemental and distasteful thing to say. I know this man and can say he loves his children more than you seem to acknowledge. What he's NOT willing to do is be taken advantage of by a spouse who wants to fatten HER wallet by delaying the inevitable. This is the world we live in. It sucks that there are women out there who would do this (as there are men) and it's a terrible rock and hard place she has placed my friend (and her husband and children) into. He would have no problem sorting things out if she were. But she's the one with everything to gain - and at his personal and their children expense.

It CAN work. You CAN put absolutely everything you have into a marriage and end up with more than you contributed. As Proverbs says...

EdLongshanks - I can appreciate the scripture well enough, but lets be realistic, He's doing his best, but it takes two to tango. If she's going to bail on him whether now or later, he might as well limit the potential damage to himself and the children and protect his ability to provide as a father AND his opportunity to attend med-school. They are not mutually exclusive. I know many single parents who've manage to succeed at both med school AND parenting. Many are on this very forum.

 

[pdlaw2000]

Take it for what is worth, agree or disagree, It's a matter of perspective, mine is based upon professional experience and yours personal experience. I don't know how comfortable I would be if I went to my doctor with a large growth protruding from my head, and he or she stated "well, I had one of those too about 22 years ago, turned out to be nothing, so don't worry about it.. heck I'm still alive"

My personal opinion is, a threat of divorce in a mirrage in a breach of the vows, it is a tatic used by spouses to manipulate the other into doing something they do not want to do, forcing one spouse to choose between the marriage and something else. Now, there are obviouse exceptions to that rule, like forcing someone to get drug treatment or its over, that is generally an effort to improve the relationship or as an attention gainer. But to toss that out on the table in a run of the mill marital spat is counter to the vows, and shows a lack of respect for the marriage and the other spouse. Some people choose to overlook it, that's their choice, but in my marriage, such a threat would be the beginning of the end.

 

[arkgal]

Most states impose a limit on how much income can be "taxed" for child support. I've dealth with this in AR and CA since my son's mother has relocated. In those two states, it is 20-25% of 60,000. Child support is not taken from any income above that amount, which is fair. Above 60,000, you are essentially paying for the mother's lifestyle. Check with your state's department of child support services. This information is usually available online.

 

[flip26]

As you noted, there are marriages that survive as well. Maybe they are just too busy to post! I can post because this is fall break...otherwise, I do admit to seriously neglecting my husband. However, we prepared for this. we did counseling pre-emptively, we redefined how things work, and we settled on our commitment. I am not disagreeing, but it is possible with a spouse, if both are sharing goals and objectives and working together towards those.

It sounds like you don't have children, and it sounds like you did all the right things going in.

I live around a bunch of residents. I can observe their comings and goings. It is staggering how much these folks are away from the house - it is far more time away than I ever imagined possible. I don't know if these relationships and marriages are under duress or not, but it is hard to imagine that they aren't. I see them drag themselves home, exhausted, so for the limited amount of time they are at home, it must be very difficult to spend much "quality" time with their spouse, much less with their children.

 

[EdLongshanks]

It sounds like you don't have children, and it sounds like you did all the right things going in.

I live around a bunch of residents. I can observe their comings and goings. It is staggering how much these folks are away from the house - it is far more time away than I ever imagined possible. I don't know if these relationships and marriages are under duress or not, but it is hard to imagine that they aren't. I see them drag themselves home, exhausted, so for the limited amount of time they are at home, it must be very difficult to spend much "quality" time with their spouse, much less with their children.

I have children and a wife - one of my children has crippling arthritis and I have to help him do physical therapy. I know how much time a family takes.

I also know how much time a family SAVES - Wife can take care of the bills, remind me when to go to bed, when to eat. My clothes disappear fom the floor and reappear, laid out for me to wear that day. The time that this save can be used to spend time with them. My daughter does errands and takes the car in for maintenance. My oldest son can take care of the lawn.

Family is a treasure to be valued, and protected. When it is not approached selfishly, it ends up giving back.

 

[flip26]

I have children and a wife - one of my children has crippling arthritis and I have to help him do physical therapy. I know how much time a family takes.

I also know how much time a family SAVES - Wife can take care of the bills, remind me when to go to bed, when to eat. My clothes disappear fom the floor and reappear, laid out for me to wear that day. The time that this save can be used to spend time with them. My daughter does errands and takes the car in for maintenance. My oldest son can take care of the lawn.

Family is a treasure to be valued, and protected. When it is not approached selfishly, it ends up giving back.

The question for people with families, and for you, too, is do you really understand how much time is involved in residency? Not the med school part - that will be a slam dunk compared to what comes during residency.

How much time have you spent talking to actual residents? They are away from home a lot more than the 80 hours a week, and they are in a constant state of exhaustion...

Also, you are describing a family with older children. That would be easier since once kids hit that high school age, they have a life of their own...the real challenge is for people with young families...

 

[EdLongshanks]

The question for people with families, and for you, too, is do you really understand how much time is involved in residency? Not the med school part - that will be a slam dunk compared to what comes during residency.

How much time have you spent talking to actual residents? They are away from home a lot more than the 80 hours a week, and they are in a constant state of exhaustion...

Also, you are describing a family with older children. That would be easier since once kids hit that high school age, they have a life of their own...the real challenge is for people with young families...

Yes, I know how much time the residents spend. I have questioned several residents carefully on this. I know about not only the main time required, but also the moonlighting. A couple of them are even open enough with me to tell me exactly how much income they get. Which is very nice of them.

Since I have older children, I must, at some point, have had younger children. The time is not significantly different. When they're young they want you to read books to them - but my 20 year old wants to have hour long conversations about football, or girls, or playing the bass, or .... really anything as long as it goes on for awhile.

Look, the single life (which I lived for awhile some decades ago) is a time-consuming life. I mean, come on, don't tell me that single med-student males don't spend a significant amount of their time chasing skirts. We're all biology majors here.

Marriage is time consuming. Children are time-consuming. .... LIFE is time-consuming.

 

[sumstorm]

Take it for what is worth, agree or disagree, It’s a matter of perspective, mine is based upon professional experience and yours personal experience. I don’t know how comfortable I would be if I went to my doctor with a large growth protruding from my head, and he or she stated “well, I had one of those too about 22 years ago, turned out to be nothing, so don’t worry about it.. heck I’m still alive”

My personal opinion is, a threat of divorce in a mirrage in a breach of the vows, it is a tatic used by spouses to manipulate the other into doing something they do not want to do, forcing one spouse to choose between the marriage and something else. Now, there are obviouse exceptions to that rule, like forcing someone to get drug treatment or its over, that is generally an effort to improve the relationship or as an attention gainer. But to toss that out on the table in a run of the mill marital spat is counter to the vows, and shows a lack of respect for the marriage and the other spouse. Some people choose to overlook it, that's their choice, but in my marriage, such a threat would be the beginning of the end.

I wonder if a LAWYER would most likely see the ones that did not resolve, and nearly NEVER see the ones that did. A lawyer is at the END of the process, and generally only sees the results of one of the paths available. If you were Gottman evaluating a couple in the love lab, it might be a valid assessment...but it is kind of like an EMT saying that all car accidents result in traume necessitating a hospital....because those are the only accidents he is called to.

 

[sumstorm]

It sounds like you don't have children, and it sounds like you did all the right things going in.

I live around a bunch of residents. I can observe their comings and goings. It is staggering how much these folks are away from the house - it is far more time away than I ever imagined possible. I don't know if these relationships and marriages are under duress or not, but it is hard to imagine that they aren't. I see them drag themselves home, exhausted, so for the limited amount of time they are at home, it must be very difficult to spend much "quality" time with their spouse, much less with their children.

I do not have biological children. I have, for years at a time (though not at this moment, but it could change at any moment) because their families are, for the moment, ok. So, I do KNOW what it is like to have children, ranging in age from new born to 16. And I have dealt with the entire 'residents have the worst life on earth' argument. Let me share my previous career. I worked for 3.5-4.5 weeks of every month. I worked on a fishing boat with an all male crew that did NOT want me there. I worked 20 hours on with 4 hours off for sleep (if there were no storms, no emergencies, no issues), up to 30 days solid. I am sure residents have it much harder; the freezing rain icing thier hands, the coast guard distress calls, the drownings, the bruises that you don't see till they are sickly green because you are in 6 layers of clothing, the broken bones that receive minimal treatment (I have both skull fractures and fingers that are improperly fused) because treatment is hundreds of miles away, toileting in buckets on deck...in that wonderfully frozen world, meningitis evacuations, no showers, horrible food, and best of all, even if it became terrible, even if a crew mate literally beat the crap out of you, or your life was in danger, YOU COULD NOT LEAVE. No way to swim to shore. I did have a child living with us at the time.

I do AGREE with you that residency and med school and lots of other things put relationships under duress. Heck, the biggest strain for my relationship? My husbands work hours getting longer (by 2-3 hours a day) and now requiring travel on weekends without compensating time off, while his income was cut by 12% due to a merger, which is as much as a mortgage payment in our lives. However, if my cousins, neices, or nephews need a home again, they have one here. Quality isn't always about having tons of energy, or doing everything right....it is often just about appreciating what you have, and contributing what you can at that moment. And sometimes, that means nothing (when I was home from sea, I slept ALOT and suffered landsickness) but I still got up for an hour a day and made meals and shared time with my spouse.

Speaking of my husband, much like a resident, his life was controlled by the whims of his company. In other words, he was 'dispatched' half way around the world the night of our wedding. They tried to dispatch him that morning. He had scheduled vacation time already. It wasn't optional, we cancelled our honeymoon, and I didn't see him for 2 months (at that time I wasn't at sea because I had taken my accrued vacation, and couldn't not take it on such short notice.) In the first 6 months of our marriage, I saw him for 4 days. Next six months, we had 3 weekends (less than 48 hours each time.) Then he moved to NC while I moved to NY for a year. Now, he lives 3.5 hours from me in SC, and we see each other some holidays. Sound familiar?

I agree fully that residents have it tough. I do not think they are the sole individuals pressured with extremely difficult tasks by their career, and they are often, eventually, well compensated. Which comes back to the point; the OP's friend is worried about compensation over worrying about maintaining a marriage, in a career that he isn't even enrolled in the professional program yet. He is looking for a reason to divorce now, and that is fine, but it is also fine that I think it is absurd. Then again, seeking legal advice on a student doctor forum is similar.