Does foreign MD trump local DO?

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Mr.Happy

Mr.Happy

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I have an acquaintance who applied last year to several US MD, US DO, and international MD schools. He was accepted to the following schools by the end of the cycle:

1. Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine
2. Lincoln Memorial University- DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
3. SGU-Grenada
4. Saba
5. Ross
6. Spartan Health Sciences
7. Windsor
8. International American University
9. St James- St. Vincent Island
10. University of Queensland- Ochsner-Australia/US hybrid program

He chose SGU and is a current MD 1 student, he started in the Fall of 2014. My first reaction when I found out his choice was of surprise. I told him that if I was in his shoes, I would have picked US DO any day. He told me he chose SGU because he really wants a derm residency because of the cushy lifestyle and high salary. He knows that with DO discrimination, his chance of matching into an ACGME derm residency were low to none.

He also said that SGU is unlike a lot of other carib/international schools because a lot of SGU grads are current residency PDs so they will not discriminate against SGU grads for residency. He's confident he can secure high step scores, strong LORs etc as part of his ERAS app.

His opinion is that top tier international/Carib MD schools are better than US DO because they allow you to get an MD with no DO discrimination. He said only choose US DO if you don't get into SGU-Grenada or a Australian/European medical school like Lublin/Jagellionian/UQ/Flinders/USydney etc.

I think he made a wrong decision but I wanted to be sure so I figured I would ask people more knowledgeable than me. Is his opinion correct in any way?
 
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Mr.Happy said:
I have an acquaintance who applied last year to several US MD, US DO, and international MD schools. He was accepted to the following schools by the end of the cycle:

1. Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine
2. Les Moines University- DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
3. SGU-Grenada
4. Saba
5. Ross
6. Spartan Health Sciences
7. Windsor
8. International American University
9. St James- St. Vincent Island
10. University of Queensland- Ochsner-Australia/US hybrid program

He chose SGU and is a current MD 1 student, he started in the Fall of 2014. My first reaction when I found out his choice was of surprise. I told him that if I was in his shoes, I would have picked US DO any day. He told me he chose SGU because he really wants a derm residency because of the cushy lifestyle and high salary. He knows that with DO discrimination, his chance of matching into an ACGME derm residency were low to none.

He also said that SGU is unlike a lot of other carib/international schools because a lot of SGU grads are current residency PDs so they will not discriminate against SGU grads for residency. He's confident he can secure high step scores, strong LORs etc as part of his ERAS app.

His opinion is that top tier international/Carib MD schools are better than US DO because they allow you to get an MD with no DO discrimination. He said only choose US DO if you don't get into SGU-Grenada or a Australian/European medical school like Lublin/Jagellionian/UQ/Flinders/USydney etc.

I think he made a wrong decision but I wanted to be sure so I figured I would ask people more knowledgeable than me.
Click to expand...
What exactly are you looking for here? Just ammo to use when you guys argue?
 
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Chubbs Peterson said:
He's an idiot. Also, what exactly are you looking for here? Just ammo to use when you guys argue?
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Life is too short to spend it arguing. No, I just want to expand my knowledge. He seems to be a smart guy and he firmly believes he made the right decision. I just want to hear some other opinions, that's all.
 
Mr.Happy said:
Life is too short to spend it arguing. No, I just want to expand my knowledge. He seems to be smart guy and he firmly believes he made the right decision. I just want to hear some other opinions, that's all.
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I got ya, fair enough. Well, wouldn't you rather have facts instead of opinions? If so, just look up the matching outcomes.
 
Of 380 ACGME PGY-2 Derm spots in 2014, USIMGs matched into 4 of them and DOs matched into 3 of them (http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf).

0 of them were SGU grads (http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2014). I doubt that there was no SGU grad wanting to go into Derm.

There were 45 AOA PGY-2 Derm spots in 2014 (https://natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2014prgstats.html). These spots will be moving towards ACGME accreditation between 2015 and 2020.
 
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I personally know dozens of Caribbean grads, and all of them (except 1) are successfully practicing in the US. Some are even in top-notch specialities like interventional cardiology and GI. And some of the grads I know are recent grads-like within the last 5 years.

Why is there such a disconnect from what I see in real life and what I read on SDN regarding the success of Carribean medical students? Based on my personal observations, the Carrib-bashing maybe overblown on SDN. Much of the attrition rate at these schools might be better attributed to the quality of student and not the school itself. And I get that my observations are just anecdotal and all that, but I also see pretty compelling numbers thrown out by SGU and other good Carrib programs.
 
Shams al Deen said:
I personally know dozens of Caribbean grads, and all of them (except 1) are successfully practicing in the US. Some are even in top-notch specialities like interventional cardiology and GI. And some of the grads I know are recent grads-like within the last 5 years.

Why is there such a disconnect from what I see in real life and what I read on SDN regarding the success of Carribean medical students? Based on my personal observations, the Carrib-bashing maybe overblown on SDN. Much of the attrition rate at these schools might be better attributed to the quality of student and not the school itself. And I get that my observations are just anecdotal and all that, but I also see pretty compelling numbers thrown out by SGU and other good Carrib programs.
Click to expand...

Is the quality of a student accepted by a school not indicative of the quality of that school?
 
Shams al Deen said:
I personally know dozens of Caribbean grads, and all of them (except 1) are successfully practicing in the US. Some are even in top-notch specialities like interventional cardiology and GI. And some of the grads I know are recent grads-like within the last 5 years.

Why is there such a disconnect from what I see in real life and what I read on SDN regarding the success of Carribean medical students? Based on my personal observations, the Carrib-bashing maybe overblown on SDN. Much of the attrition rate at these schools might be better attributed to the quality of student and not the school itself. And I get that my observations are just anecdotal and all that, but I also see pretty compelling numbers thrown out by SGU and other good Carrib programs.
Click to expand...
I see statistics as puppets in a lot of situations. You can pull the strings and make them dance how you please.
 
Shams al Deen said:
I personally know dozens of Caribbean grads, and all of them (except 1) are successfully practicing in the US. Some are even in top-notch specialities like interventional cardiology and GI. And some of the grads I know are recent grads-like within the last 5 years.

Why is there such a disconnect from what I see in real life and what I read on SDN regarding the success of Carribean medical students? Based on my personal observations, the Carrib-bashing maybe overblown on SDN. Much of the attrition rate at these schools might be better attributed to the quality of student and not the school itself. And I get that my observations are just anecdotal and all that, but I also see pretty compelling numbers thrown out by SGU and other good Carrib programs.
Click to expand...

You do have a point. Caribbean medical schools are notorious for accepting applicants with terrible stats, a lot of the schools don't even require the MCAT. Even top tier Carib schools like SGU are known for accepting applicants with 20 MCAT and 2.5 GPA, especially during their off peak entering class and especially if they can sucker the applicant into taking an additional semester (SGU Foundations) or the MPH program.

With the upcoming residency crunch and the massive recent increase in US DO and MD students, I wouldn't recommend offshore schools to anyone. However, I think SGU was a much more viable option say 10 or even 5 years ago for academically capable applicants.
 
Should have gone to Des Moines or Queensland...
 
JPA178 said:
Should have gone to Des Moines or Queensland...
Click to expand...

What is your opinion of the Queensland-Ochsner program? 2 years of basic sciences in Brisbane, Australia followed by 2 years of clinicals in New Orleans. I wonder how residency PDs will view Australian medical grads?
 
Mr.Happy said:
I have an acquaintance who applied last year to several US MD, US DO, and international MD schools. He was accepted to the following schools by the end of the cycle:

1. Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine
2. Les Moines University- DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
3. SGU-Grenada
4. Saba
5. Ross
6. Spartan Health Sciences
7. Windsor
8. International American University
9. St James- St. Vincent Island
10. University of Queensland- Ochsner-Australia/US hybrid program

He chose SGU and is a current MD 1 student, he started in the Fall of 2014. My first reaction when I found out his choice was of surprise. I told him that if I was in his shoes, I would have picked US DO any day. He told me he chose SGU because he really wants a derm residency because of the cushy lifestyle and high salary. He knows that with DO discrimination, his chance of matching into an ACGME derm residency were low to none.

He also said that SGU is unlike a lot of other carib/international schools because a lot of SGU grads are current residency PDs so they will not discriminate against SGU grads for residency. He's confident he can secure high step scores, strong LORs etc as part of his ERAS app.

His opinion is that top tier international/Carib MD schools are better than US DO because they allow you to get an MD with no DO discrimination. He said only choose US DO if you don't get into SGU-Grenada or a Australian/European medical school like Lublin/Jagellionian/UQ/Flinders/USydney etc.

I think he made a wrong decision but I wanted to be sure so I figured I would ask people more knowledgeable than me. Is his opinion correct in any way?
Click to expand...
Your friend is a *****.
 
Mr.Happy said:
What is your opinion of the Queensland-Ochsner program? 2 years of basic sciences in Brisbane, Australia followed by 2 years of clinicals in New Orleans. I wonder how residency PDs will view Australian medical grads?
Click to expand...

Better than Caribbean grads, for sure. Ochsner is the best hospital in the state of Louisiana per US News ranking, and a lot of the UQ program graduates have matched into residencies there. The main downside is the price. However, the Caribbean schools aren't cheap either!
 
Mr.Happy said:
I have an acquaintance who applied last year to several US MD, US DO, and international MD schools. He was accepted to the following schools by the end of the cycle:

1. Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine
2. Les Moines University- DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
3. SGU-Grenada
4. Saba
5. Ross
6. Spartan Health Sciences
7. Windsor
8. International American University
9. St James- St. Vincent Island
10. University of Queensland- Ochsner-Australia/US hybrid program

He chose SGU and is a current MD 1 student, he started in the Fall of 2014. My first reaction when I found out his choice was of surprise. I told him that if I was in his shoes, I would have picked US DO any day. He told me he chose SGU because he really wants a derm residency because of the cushy lifestyle and high salary. He knows that with DO discrimination, his chance of matching into an ACGME derm residency were low to none.

He also said that SGU is unlike a lot of other carib/international schools because a lot of SGU grads are current residency PDs so they will not discriminate against SGU grads for residency. He's confident he can secure high step scores, strong LORs etc as part of his ERAS app.

His opinion is that top tier international/Carib MD schools are better than US DO because they allow you to get an MD with no DO discrimination. He said only choose US DO if you don't get into SGU-Grenada or a Australian/European medical school like Lublin/Jagellionian/UQ/Flinders/USydney etc.

I think he made a wrong decision but I wanted to be sure so I figured I would ask people more knowledgeable than me. Is his opinion correct in any way?
Click to expand...
criminy, I've never heard of this school.
 
Mr.Happy said:
I thought Windsor was an awful medical school?
Click to expand...

My friend is doing an mph program now. her classmate is a grad from windsor. Has applied for residency during these last 3 years with no success. I do feel for ppl like her but then it's like..."really.. you couldn't have done research on your school before going and taking up huge debt. At the very least, you could have gone BIg 4."

OP, just wish your friend all the best
 
Mr.Happy said:
I have an acquaintance who applied last year to several US MD, US DO, and international MD schools. He was accepted to the following schools by the end of the cycle:

1. Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine
2. Les Moines University- DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine
3. SGU-Grenada
4. Saba
5. Ross
6. Spartan Health Sciences
7. Windsor
8. International American University
9. St James- St. Vincent Island
10. University of Queensland- Ochsner-Australia/US hybrid program

He chose SGU and is a current MD 1 student, he started in the Fall of 2014. My first reaction when I found out his choice was of surprise. I told him that if I was in his shoes, I would have picked US DO any day. He told me he chose SGU because he really wants a derm residency because of the cushy lifestyle and high salary. He knows that with DO discrimination, his chance of matching into an ACGME derm residency were low to none.

He also said that SGU is unlike a lot of other carib/international schools because a lot of SGU grads are current residency PDs so they will not discriminate against SGU grads for residency. He's confident he can secure high step scores, strong LORs etc as part of his ERAS app.

His opinion is that top tier international/Carib MD schools are better than US DO because they allow you to get an MD with no DO discrimination. He said only choose US DO if you don't get into SGU-Grenada or a Australian/European medical school like Lublin/Jagellionian/UQ/Flinders/USydney etc.

I think he made a wrong decision but I wanted to be sure so I figured I would ask people more knowledgeable than me. Is his opinion correct in any way?
Click to expand...

Lol
 
Dated a girl in undergrad my junior year. Wanna know how we broke up?

Me: So you wanna go to medical school?
Her: Yeah! I really love surgery and kids, so pediatric surgery is what I am really looking at! (She had 200+ of shadowing ped surg alone at this point...)
Me: Oh really? So where are you going to apply next year?
Her: SGU, Ross, and Saba
Me: What? Why?
Her: It's so beautiful there and I can practice medicine in the U.S. when I graduate

And that's the day I broke up with a girl based on her stupidity.

For what it's worth, she's at a top 50 US MD school, so something good came out of it.
 
FutureOncologist said:
Dated a girl in undergrad my junior year. Wanna know how we broke up?

Me: So you wanna go to medical school?
Her: Yeah! I really love surgery and kids, so pediatric surgery is what I am really looking at! (She had 200+ of shadowing ped surg alone at this point...)
Me: Oh really? So where are you going to apply next year?
Her: SGU, Ross, and Saba
Me: What? Why?
Her: It's so beautiful there and I can practice medicine in the U.S. when I graduate

And that's the day I broke up with a girl based on her stupidity.

For what it's worth, she's at a top 50 US MD school, so something good came out of it.
Click to expand...

She dumped you didn't she?
 
Don't statistics show that matching rates from US IMG and US DO are pretty similar? I'm not too sure but I would think based on the match, they are equivalent (IF you want an allo residency tho)
 
orangeman25 said:
Don't statistics show that matching rates from US IMG and US DO are pretty similar? I'm not too sure but I would think based on the match, they are equivalent (IF you want an allo residency tho)
Click to expand...
You can see the data in the link provided above: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf However, bear in mind that this is the data for the NRMP and that many DOs would have obtained positions in the Osteopathic match which occurs before the Allo match. The overall DO first time match rate is higher than that for US-IMGs and the OPs friend is either a fool, ignorant or lying about why he chose SGU.
 
FutureOncologist said:
Dated a girl in undergrad my junior year. Wanna know how we broke up?

Me: So you wanna go to medical school?
Her: Yeah! I really love surgery and kids, so pediatric surgery is what I am really looking at! (She had 200+ of shadowing ped surg alone at this point...)
Me: Oh really? So where are you going to apply next year?
Her: SGU, Ross, and Saba
Me: What? Why?
Her: It's so beautiful there and I can practice medicine in the U.S. when I graduate

And that's the day I broke up with a girl based on her stupidity.

For what it's worth, she's at a top 50 US MD school, so something good came out of it.
Click to expand...
That's pretty mean. She's probably not stupid but was just misinformed.
 
Shams al Deen said:
I personally know dozens of Caribbean grads, and all of them (except 1) are successfully practicing in the US. Some are even in top-notch specialities like interventional cardiology and GI. And some of the grads I know are recent grads-like within the last 5 years.

Why is there such a disconnect from what I see in real life and what I read on SDN regarding the success of Carribean medical students? Based on my personal observations, the Carrib-bashing maybe overblown on SDN. Much of the attrition rate at these schools might be better attributed to the quality of student and not the school itself. And I get that my observations are just anecdotal and all that, but I also see pretty compelling numbers thrown out by SGU and other good Carrib programs.
Click to expand...

I don't think most people claim that Caribbean grads won't be able to practice eventually. It's just the road to get there is often more difficult, costly and not supportive as an U.S. MD or DO school. Statistics also back that up when you look at match rates being lower. Med school and matching is already difficult enough, so I see no good reason why one would want to make the process more difficult by going to a Caribbean school.

Also, you mention the attrition rate being high due to the quality of students proves a point. Most US schools want their students to graduate and be successful so they only accept students that they think will graduate and are supportive of them during their 4 years. The fact that many Caribbean schools will accept anyone with a pulse is telling as to what one of their main concerns is...making money.
 
orangeman25 said:
Don't statistics show that matching rates from US IMG and US DO are pretty similar? I'm not too sure but I would think based on the match, they are equivalent (IF you want an allo residency tho)
Click to expand...

No, look at the matching outcomes document. You also have to remember that half of DOs match in to AOA residency, so overall your chances of matching as a DO are higher than American citizens from foreign schools.
 
Between MD and DO, 48 DOs matched derm last year, while only 4 IMGs matched derm. There were just over 12,600 IMGs vying for US positions, while there was something like 5,000 DOs applying for residencies. Basically, your friend messed up bad, real bad. His chances are so close to zero as to be nonexistent. He'll be lucky to match FP with the way the match is going to look in 2018.
 
Reading about OP's friend:

tumblr_m5p3fh3d9b1rn95k2o1_500.gif
 
Forget about derm, isnt it a lot riskier finding ANY residency from the Caribbean..
 
Okay not replying to everyone but there were other problems with the relationship. That was the beginning of an all-night fight over a lot of stuff.

EDIT: I broke up with her.
 
J Senpai said:
That guy looks like an elderly Hitler...
Click to expand...

That guy is the legendary John Cleese. If you haven't done so, I highly recommend that you watch the "Fawlty Towers" TV show.

There is a saying "One who watches Fawlty Towers and lives till the age of 25 has lived a more enjoyable life than one who does not watch it and lives till the age of 75"
 
Mr.Happy said:
That guy is the legendary John Cleese. If you haven't done so, I highly recommend that you watch the "Fawlty Towers" TV show.

There is a saying "One who watches Fawlty Towers and lives till the age of 25 has lived a more enjoyable life than one who does not watch it and lives till the age of 75"
Click to expand...
Probably more accessible would be Monty Python.

"Its just a flesh wound!"
 
Mr.Happy said:
You do have a point. Caribbean medical schools are notorious for accepting applicants with terrible stats, a lot of the schools don't even require the MCAT. Even top tier Carib schools like SGU are known for accepting applicants with 20 MCAT and 2.5 GPA, especially during their off peak entering class and especially if they can sucker the applicant into taking an additional semester (SGU Foundations) or the MPH program.

With the upcoming residency crunch and the massive recent increase in US DO and MD students, I wouldn't recommend offshore schools to anyone. However, I think SGU was a much more viable option say 10 or even 5 years ago for academically capable applicants.
Click to expand...
Dont just throw out fake facts SGU average MCAT is 28 and this past yr got plenty of students in the low 30's
 
laricb said:
Dont just throw out fake facts SGU average MCAT is 28 and this past yr got plenty of students in the low 30's
Click to expand...

If you read my post completely, you would have noticed that I specifically mentioned those numbers in connection with enrollment in off peak semesters (like starting in the Jan semester as opposed to the Aug semester when SGU is scrambling to fill up all its many many seats) and also with enrollment with the caveat of completing the SGU Foundations or SGU MPH course first. I never claimed that a 20 MCAT score and a 2.5 GPA was the average for incoming SGU students. I said that they are known for going that low, under certain conditions.

Also, I don't believe the numbers posted by SGU on their site, period.
 
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