Does graduate GPA help make up for undergraduate GPA

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Boardrider32

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I have a lackluster undergraduate GPA of 3.4, but a 3.986 gradutate GPA. How much influence does a good graduate GPA have on a low undergraduate GPA. I got a 31 MCAT, so my scores are decent. Any thoughts? I only applied to four schools. Two immediately rejected due to OOS. Two interviews (home state and private school). Currently on wait-list at a private school. I may need to apply again if I don't get off the wait-list, so this is why I am interested.

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I have a lackluster undergraduate GPA of 3.4, but a 3.986 gradutate GPA. How much influence does a good graduate GPA have on a low undergraduate GPA. I got a 31 MCAT, so my scores are decent. Any thoughts? I only applied to four schools. Two immediately rejected due to OOS. Two interviews (home state and private school). Currently on wait-list at a private school. I may need to apply again if I don't get off the wait-list, so this is why I am interested.

Your undergrad GPA is calculated seperately from Grad GPA. Grad GPAs don't hold a lot of weight when compared to the undergrad GPA because grading is even less standard for graduate school than it is for undergrad. It would be better if you took post-bac classes to try to get your uGPA up.
 
Your undergrad GPA is calculated seperately from Grad GPA. Grad GPAs don't hold a lot of weight when compared to the undergrad GPA because grading is even less standard for graduate school than it is for undergrad. It would be better if you took post-bac classes to try to get your uGPA up.


It may not numerically affect your undergrad gpa but it's never a bad thing to have higher level coursework at a near 4.0 level.
 
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Your undergrad GPA is calculated seperately from Grad GPA. Grad GPAs don't hold a lot of weight when compared to the undergrad GPA because grading is even less standard for graduate school than it is for undergrad. It would be better if you took post-bac classes to try to get your uGPA up.

Agree with this. If you need to fix undergrad GPA, you need to take more undergrad courses. Graduate degrees carry the weight of a nice EC, and the graduate GPAs are relatively meaningless in the process (unless you tank it, in which case it might give the school some pause). Some people do SMPs to improve their chances for medical school, but they actually don't serve a GPA oriented purpose, instead they serve to prove to med schools that the student has the ability to do well in med school level courses, assuming there was such question. So they are great for eg the 3.2/30 type with something to prove. But the grad GPA itself doesn't play much weight.

OP, with a 3.4/31 you are numerically on the borderline of competitive for allo med schools. But with those numbers I would have probably erred on the side of applying to too many, rather than the too few you did. If you end up having to apply again, you will need to show substantial improvement from the current cycle. I would consider taking a few more undergrad level upper level sciences for A's, bolster your ECs if they were lacking, work on your interviewing (with two interviews the ball was in your court), and definitely apply more extensively next time.
 
How long will it take to increase your GPA from 3.1-3.3 to 3.5-3.7 ish? Can any one give rough idea?

I can get some scholarship if i join 2 year MS program but if i choose to go for another year of school i will have to pay everything. What will you do if you have money problem?

Thanks
 
I have a lackluster undergraduate GPA of 3.4, but a 3.986 gradutate GPA. How much influence does a good graduate GPA have on a low undergraduate GPA. I got a 31 MCAT, so my scores are decent. Any thoughts? I only applied to four schools. Two immediately rejected due to OOS. Two interviews (home state and private school). Currently on wait-list at a private school. I may need to apply again if I don't get off the wait-list, so this is why I am interested.
Honestly, I do not think that graduate GPA is taken highly into consideration which to me makes no sense. I had a couple of interviews and basically got turned down because of my undergrad GPA, even though I have a really high GPA for my Masters in Biology. As one lady put it "your undergrad GPA really concerned us"
 
Honestly, I do not think that graduate GPA is taken highly into consideration which to me makes no sense. I had a couple of interviews and basically got turned down because of my undergrad GPA, even though I have a really high GPA for my Masters in Biology. As one lady put it "your undergrad GPA really concerned us"

Too many grad programs are easy A's, and med schools don't know which ones, so they stick with a yardstick they are more familiar with. Plus they cannot really compare head to head someone with a high grad GPA to someone with a high undergrad GPA. They need to focus on a statistic everyone has (undergrad GPA).
 
Doesn't help much. Check out my MDapps. 3.07 uGPA, 3.86 grad GPA. I think it may have get me a couple of MD interviews because I doubt a 3.07 would have net any at all otherwise. However, you can see that it sure didn't count like a 3.86 in undergrad would have.
 
No it does not. Medical schools will still look at your undergrad GPA. You could still bring up your uGPA by doing some Post Bacc.

Good luck!

DD
 
For some reason, everyone who goes to graduate school seems to have a 3.8-4.0 gpa. So why is it so hard to get a 3.7 or better as an undergrad? It seems counterintuitive. Even the folks who could not break 3.0 as undergrads seem to be 4.0 in grad school. What is up with that? You get an A for just getting out of bed and showing up in grad school?
 
Often, but not always.

Too much of a generalization. Yes, there were a few classes that were extremely easy. But then again, so were there in undergrad. For example, my undergrad course in exploring the internet wasn't exactly calculus and my graduate course in teaching was easy as well.

However, many of my grad courses are very difficult. Advanced Quantitative Methods, for example, is a year long statistics course (in psychology) that makes or breaks each first year student.

But I agree that the discrepancy and inconsistency in grading procedures across universities would make weighing them in the medical school admission process difficult.
 
I had a very low undergrad gpa 2.6 and I finished master's with close to 4.0. I heard that master's gpa does not help in undergrad gpa. If I take post-bac classes and re-take biology, physics, organic chem, etc. are post-bac grades going to be considered part of undergrad gpa?
 
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I had a very low undergrad gpa 2.6 and I finished master's with close to 4.0. I heard that master's gpa does not help in undergrad gpa. If I take post-bac classes and re-take biology, physics, organic chem, etc. are post-bac grades going to be considered part of undergrad gpa?

Yes, post-bacc classes do get figured into the undergrad GPA. Have you had the opportunity to look around at the other forums on SDN, yet? I think there are a few that might be helpful for you to look at. If you check the Non-Traditional Forum and the Pre-Osteo board, might also find helpful information there.
 
Honestly, I do not think that graduate GPA is taken highly into consideration which to me makes no sense. I had a couple of interviews and basically got turned down because of my undergrad GPA, even though I have a really high GPA for my Masters in Biology. As one lady put it "your undergrad GPA really concerned us"
I've had adcoms tell me that my ugrad GPA concerned them, but that was assuaged by my stellar graduate GPA. They said they had no reason to doubt my ability to handle upper-level science courses after seeing what I did in graduate school.
 
For some reason, everyone who goes to graduate school seems to have a 3.8-4.0 gpa. So why is it so hard to get a 3.7 or better as an undergrad? It seems counterintuitive. Even the folks who could not break 3.0 as undergrads seem to be 4.0 in grad school. What is up with that? You get an A for just getting out of bed and showing up in grad school?
well, let's think about this for a minute. people with low ugrad GPAs weren't always low-GPA students. take my case for example.. I graduated with a 3.3, but that was after a freshman year GPA of 2.5 and working my way up to a 3.9 for senior year. Obviously something changed in me (I learned how to study), so I'm not the person I was when I was bombing classes with a 2.5. When you see an undergrad with an upward trend, do you assume their upper-level classes were just easy A's, or do you think they probably figured something out and started working harder?

graduate programs often take people who are good performers in undergrad. why would you expect low grades from students who were likely in the top 25% of their undergrad classes? those people were pulling As in undergrad also.

then you have requirements from a lot of graduate programs for students to make at least a B to "pass" the class. does that mean they're GIVEN B's? No, the students just know they have to make at least a B. Thus, everyone's GPA is above a 3.0. Why don't you see a lot of undergrad GPAs below 2.0? Well, because you have to have a C usually to move on to the next course. The requirements are just higher in graduate school, so GPAs are higher.

Another thing to consider is that you're probably used to seeing a lot of pre-meds with Masters degrees who score a 4.0 or near there. Most of us probably went to graduate school as a way of improving our application, probably because our undergrad GPA was on the low side. Why would I go to graduate school just to make another 3.3? How is that helping me? It won't, so I lit a fire under my *** and worked for that 4.0.

And finally, not all graduate students have GPAs that high. My wife's graduate program likes to tell their students "If you're making A's, you're working too hard." They care that their students pass class (with a B), but they want MOST of their effort to go into research. Thus, several of the graduate students here at a major university in a leading program in the country have below your 3.7 "automatic" graduate GPA. And those are some of the brightest kids you'll meet.
 
Sorry Army, but I'm afraid you're wasting your logic on this thread. It ain't worth it!
 
Sorry Army, but I'm afraid you're wasting your logic on this thread. It ain't worth it!
If I can get even 1 person to stop and think before telling everyone gets free A's for being a grad student, I think my time has been well-spent.

Plus I don't want to actually do any work this morning.
 
For some reason, everyone who goes to graduate school seems to have a 3.8-4.0 gpa. So why is it so hard to get a 3.7 or better as an undergrad? It seems counterintuitive. Even the folks who could not break 3.0 as undergrads seem to be 4.0 in grad school. What is up with that? You get an A for just getting out of bed and showing up in grad school?

I think it is because any grad school wants to see their students through whereas ugrad they want to weed people out and so purposely make things tough. I think that a lot of ugrad classes teach you useless stuff like tracing carbons and things of that nature that you don't use in grad school programs geared towards med scchool and med school itself, just to distinguish between the best of the best.

That said, I know a few people who had really high GPAs in ugrad who did horrible in med school. So I don't know how well it does that all the time.
 
I had a very low undergrad gpa 2.6 and I finished master's with close to 4.0. I heard that master's gpa does not help in undergrad gpa. If I take post-bac classes and re-take biology, physics, organic chem, etc. are post-bac grades going to be considered part of undergrad gpa?

Go to the mentor forum where actual adcom members like Tildy, REL, NJBMD, etc. post. Also other people on Adcoms who might be able to advise might be LizzyM and CCLCMer.
 
I had a very low undergrad gpa 2.6 and I finished master's with close to 4.0. I heard that master's gpa does not help in undergrad gpa. If I take post-bac classes and re-take biology, physics, organic chem, etc. are post-bac grades going to be considered part of undergrad gpa?

What kind of masters? In what?

AFAIK post bacc grades for you will get folded into your UG GPA as it is done for everyone else - not sure your confusion on this.

If you retake the pre reqs (and they were C or worse) and get As, that could really help your GPA for DO schools...really important to make As on any retakes, though...
 
I have a lackluster undergraduate GPA of 3.4, but a 3.986 gradutate GPA. How much influence does a good graduate GPA have on a low undergraduate GPA. I got a 31 MCAT, so my scores are decent. Any thoughts? I only applied to four schools. Two immediately rejected due to OOS. Two interviews (home state and private school). Currently on wait-list at a private school. I may need to apply again if I don't get off the wait-list, so this is why I am interested.

To get a real answer to this question, ask the adcom directors of the schools of interests. ost Fl. schools look upon it favorably. However, if it is a top tier school, I'm sure they don't care to see people who'd have a lackluster ugrad. I mean its different for different schools and their words are the only ones that matter in the end.
 
Grad GPA will never make up for a graduate GPA, but I think it CAN go a long way to show them that you are capable of handling difficult courses.
 
well, let's think about this for a minute. people with low ugrad GPAs weren't always low-GPA students. take my case for example.. I graduated with a 3.3, but that was after a freshman year GPA of 2.5 and working my way up to a 3.9 for senior year. Obviously something changed in me (I learned how to study), so I'm not the person I was when I was bombing classes with a 2.5. When you see an undergrad with an upward trend, do you assume their upper-level classes were just easy A's, or do you think they probably figured something out and started working harder?

graduate programs often take people who are good performers in undergrad. why would you expect low grades from students who were likely in the top 25% of their undergrad classes? those people were pulling As in undergrad also.

then you have requirements from a lot of graduate programs for students to make at least a B to "pass" the class. does that mean they're GIVEN B's? No, the students just know they have to make at least a B. Thus, everyone's GPA is above a 3.0. Why don't you see a lot of undergrad GPAs below 2.0? Well, because you have to have a C usually to move on to the next course. The requirements are just higher in graduate school, so GPAs are higher.

Another thing to consider is that you're probably used to seeing a lot of pre-meds with Masters degrees who score a 4.0 or near there. Most of us probably went to graduate school as a way of improving our application, probably because our undergrad GPA was on the low side. Why would I go to graduate school just to make another 3.3? How is that helping me? It won't, so I lit a fire under my *** and worked for that 4.0.

And finally, not all graduate students have GPAs that high. My wife's graduate program likes to tell their students "If you're making A's, you're working too hard." They care that their students pass class (with a B), but they want MOST of their effort to go into research. Thus, several of the graduate students here at a major university in a leading program in the country have below your 3.7 "automatic" graduate GPA. And those are some of the brightest kids you'll meet.

Well, the big thing in graduate level work is that your profs tend to know you better, and tend to give you more of a benefit of the doubt because you are actually focusing in on their field. It is easier to like students who remind you of you. Plus you tend to be interested in that field so you go that extra mile more often than in undergrad. So the A's are more freely given out. Doesn't mean all grad students will have high GPAs, but in general, the average GPA in a graduate program is going to be higher than in an undergrad program.
 
If someone is a numerically average candidate (29-31 MCAT and a 3.5-3.7GPA), does a strong graduate school career (Masters or PhD) make them more marketable for admission/financial aid to medical school? Is an advanced degree ever harmful? As a biomedical PhD student potentially interested in picking up an MD after I finish my degree, I am interested in the answer to this question.
 
If someone is a numerically average candidate (29-31 MCAT and a 3.5-3.7GPA), does a strong graduate school career (Masters or PhD) make them more marketable for admission/financial aid to medical school? Is an advanced degree ever harmful? As a biomedical PhD student potentially interested in picking up an MD after I finish my degree, I am interested in the answer to this question.

Um no. The admission question was answered in the first couple of posts in this thread. Look at the grad degree as a nice EC, but not the driving force in admissions. Your undergrad GPA and MCAT are going to be the objective part of your application, and schools often make drastic cuts to the applicant pool based on these easy to use criteria. ECs, essays, LORs and interview skills will make up the remainder of your application. Fin aid is not generally based on prior credentials at all. Prior advanced degrees are generally never harmful, but you often have to have a good explanation for why you did the prior degree ("career students" and folks who are unfocused are frowned upon), and getting a graduate degree with low grades in that program can hurt you.

Bear in mind that someone who is "potentially interested in picking up an MD" is not going to get into med school. You have to really want it, and it has to be THE priority at that stage in your life, not merely something you feel like "picking up" because you think you have the prereqs. If it's not something you think will be the primary professional focus in your life for the next 7-10 years and beyond, don't go down this road. It's a lousy "add-on" degree for someone planning on doing something else, because it's simply too hard, too long, and folks who dislike spending long hours doing clinical medicine will have an awful time in med school after the second year.
 
Well, the big thing in graduate level work is that your profs tend to know you better, and tend to give you more of a benefit of the doubt because you are actually focusing in on their field. It is easier to like students who remind you of you. Plus you tend to be interested in that field so you go that extra mile more often than in undergrad. So the A's are more freely given out. Doesn't mean all grad students will have high GPAs, but in general, the average GPA in a graduate program is going to be higher than in an undergrad program.
I'm sure that's true in a lot of classes.

Keep in mind, though, that many graduate students still have to take those typical undergrad upper-level science courses with 50+ undergrads. We're graded on the same scale and take the same exams, so there's no special treatment for graduate students over undergrads.

But you're right, it's basically seen as an EC, with the added bonus of being able to answer questions about whether or not you can handle difficult science courses or if you'd be interested in doing research.
 
How long will it take to increase your GPA from 3.1-3.3 to 3.5-3.7 ish? Can any one give rough idea?

I can get some scholarship if i join 2 year MS program but if i choose to go for another year of school i will have to pay everything. What will you do if you have money problem?

Thanks
depends on how many hours you have already taken........a 3.1 with 100 hours will pretty much require a 100 hours of 4.0 to get to the 3.5 level
 
If someone is a numerically average candidate (29-31 MCAT and a 3.5-3.7GPA), does a strong graduate school career (Masters or PhD) make them more marketable for admission/financial aid to medical school? Is an advanced degree ever harmful? As a biomedical PhD student potentially interested in picking up an MD after I finish my degree, I am interested in the answer to this question.

This is controversial here, but I definitely think my PhD got me interviews I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and probably was the deciding factor in my getting in. It's certainly more than just another EC, but not a golden ticket either. If those are your numbers then I'm sure you'll have a shot.

There are a lot of good threads on this although it's tough to search for them because of how crappy the search function is...try looking for posts in the nontraditional or physician/scientist forums by QofQuimica and Scottish Chap.
 
I'm sure that's true in a lot of classes.

Keep in mind, though, that many graduate students still have to take those typical undergrad upper-level science courses with 50+ undergrads. We're graded on the same scale and take the same exams, so there's no special treatment for graduate students over undergrads.

But you're right, it's basically seen as an EC, with the added bonus of being able to answer questions about whether or not you can handle difficult science courses or if you'd be interested in doing research.

i agree. for seminars, there probably is more leniency, but for straight science classes there definitely was not.

for these, you had to know the material cold to get an A. they were definitely as or more difficult than my undergraduate courses. I would say 85% of my master's was straight science and not these research/seminar/touchy feely types of classes where we all pat each other on the back about how we're interested in learning about the same thing. I don't see how that's much different than undergrad where there was probably a similar amount of blow off classes.

there are probably more master's programs out there that are like an extension of undergrad than is commonly thought by most. i find it kind of insulting that the hard work i put in for my master's is often dismissed.
 
there are probably more master's programs out there that are like an extension of undergrad than is commonly thought by most. i find it kind of insulting that the hard work i put in for my master's is often dismissed.

But med schools don't want to be in the business of determining which grad school grades are freebies and which are earned. So they don't put much stock in the GPA at all. It's much easier for them to focus on undergrad GPA, where the grouping is tighter.
 
i find it kind of insulting that the hard work i put in for my master's is often dismissed.

i hear ya! i remember a post by one of the other mods that said that it makes no sense but that's the way it is. 👎
 
AGraduate degrees carry the weight of a nice EC, and the graduate GPAs are relatively meaningless in the process (unless you tank it, in which case it might give the school some pause).

definitely agree with this. don't think grad school is a complete waste. for borderline applicants who don't want to risk SMPs but have too many units to raise their GPA appreciably in one year, a 1 year hard science master's program may be a good way to spend a lag year for reapplication. it's not a "GPA fixer" but you will probably have some research done and can snag some great LORs working with your advisor or research PI.
 
But med schools don't want to be in the business of determining which grad school grades are freebies and which are earned. So they don't put much stock in the GPA at all. It's much easier for them to focus on undergrad GPA, where the grouping is tighter.

that's fine. i get that. i got in so it obviously didn't affect me too much.

it irks me when i meet someone and discuss my educational background and i get "pooh pooh"ed, for lack of a better word. no one should get a master's (not including SMPs) for purposes of improving an application, IMO. i also think people assume that i did it for that purpose, which is not the case. it was something that i was interested in at the time (and still am). i didn't have aspirations of going to med school back then.
 
But med schools don't want to be in the business of determining which grad school grades are freebies and which are earned. So they don't put much stock in the GPA at all. It's much easier for them to focus on undergrad GPA, where the grouping is tighter.

Say whatever you want about graduate GPAs but what i do not get is why all of a sudden everyone is saying that undergrad GPA is "tighter" or more standardized.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?

MIT v. random non-MIT school? (as JUST one example)

Undergraduate is extremely UNstandardized, it's just more familiar to med schools. This is why they have a standardized admissions test!

UGPA shows the ability to succeed in the environment a student is in, med schools like that. This has been discussed ad nauseum, but to be clear I'm NOT saying a lousy GPA can be made up by school prestige...but that does not imply that all undergraduate schools were created (and thus grade) equally.
 
Say whatever you want about graduate GPAs but what i do not get is why all of a sudden everyone is saying that undergrad GPA is "tighter" or more standardized.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?

MIT v. random non-MIT school? (as JUST one example)

Undergraduate is extremely UNstandardized, it's just more familiar to med schools. This is why they have a standardized admissions test!

UGPA shows the ability to succeed in the environment a student is in, med schools like that. This has been discussed ad nauseum, but to be clear I'm NOT saying a lousy GPA can be made up by school prestige...but that does not imply that all undergraduate schools were created (and thus grade) equally.


Law2Doc pointed out that undergraduate GPAs are used as better objective tools for admissions because they are generally more standardized than graduate school GPAs. Not that undergraduate institutions are all equally difficult, it is just that they are considered to be MORE standardized than graduate school's difficulty as it relates to a grade.

Another thing to point out here is, a bachelors is required for medical school and a graduate level degree is not. Also the MCAT is required for medical school and say the LSAT or GRE are not. So adcoms are primarily interested in how well a student did in those areas that are required of all applicants.

So not only is it generally accepted that undergraduate GPAs are more regulated in how difficult a 4.0 vs a 2.5 is, but also every applicant has an undergraduate GPA of which to compare with. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to give a huge amount of credit to a 4.0 in graduate school when most applicants never had a graduate school GPA to start with. Not because graduate school is easy, or a lack-luster accomplishment, but that you can not objectively compare an applicant with only an undergraduate GPA to an applicant with both undergraduate and graduate GPAs. So as Law2Doc points out graduate degrees are often looked at as great ECs. Also though as he points out, if you got a masters in history then randomly applied to medical school, the adcom may want to know why the sudden change of heart? If you can't explain it, or come off as a pro-student then it will hurt your application because adcoms ultimately want to produce physicians, not reward those who are the smartest or have the most accomplishments. (Although often the goal to produce a physician often overlaps with accepting someone who is very smart and has accomplished a lot, thankfully)
 
I have a lackluster undergraduate GPA of 3.4, but a 3.986 gradutate GPA. How much influence does a good graduate GPA have on a low undergraduate GPA. I got a 31 MCAT, so my scores are decent. Any thoughts? I only applied to four schools. Two immediately rejected due to OOS. Two interviews (home state and private school). Currently on wait-list at a private school. I may need to apply again if I don't get off the wait-list, so this is why I am interested.

to be shamelessly blunt, grad school gpa does not SEEM to make up for undergrad gpa based on anecdotal evidence.

to be even more blunt, your undergrad gpa is not bad, and your mcat (if with an even distribution) is fairly good. If you need to reapply, you MIGHT want to retake the MCAT if you're confident you can boost it. Otherwise, just focus on EC's and (if possible) take some UG courses to get that UG gpa a little higher.
 
Law2Doc pointed out that undergraduate GPAs are used as better objective tools for admissions because they are generally more standardized than graduate school GPAs. Not that undergraduate institutions are all equally difficult, it is just that they are considered to be MORE standardized than graduate school's difficulty as it relates to a grade.

Yes, I understand what he points out but my whole point was that this is ridiculous since this could not be further from the truth. I also don't think adcom's assume that undergraduate gpa is anywhere near standardized. As I said (and as you said), they are just USED to dealing with it.


Another thing to point out here is, a bachelors is required for medical school and a graduate level degree is not. Also the MCAT is required for medical school and say the LSAT or GRE are not. So adcoms are primarily interested in how well a student did in those areas that are required of all applicants.

Good point. I agree...but is the degree actually *required* or just the pre-reqs?

So not only is it generally accepted that undergraduate GPAs are more regulated in how difficult a 4.0 vs a 2.5 is,

This is kind of circular. I disagree because I don't believe it is, or is even close to being so...which is why i posted. I don't have to take Law2doc's opinion as fact when I know from experience that undergrad can range from night to day in how difficult they are. I transferred from one ivy to another after freshman year, did my grad degree at a state school where I had to teach undergrads. The first ivy was, itself, much harder than the second...and the state school undergrads that I taught, with exceptions, would have been chum at either of the schools; some have very poor mastery of the chemistry I taught but still maintained 3.7+ GPAs because the professors wrote easy tests, graded more liberally that expected less of the class on whole because they don't KNOW the backgrounds of everyone in the class. The people who got into a top school are supposedly exceptionally well-prepared for college and in a state school there is a mixture.

I know someone's going to scream that not all state schools are like this (and I agree) but probability-wise, you end up with a lot more in a state undergrad with an average 3.4 high school gpa/1000 SAT than a 4.0/1400+ SAT acceptance average school. It's just the way undergrad goes. Again, I'm not saying premeds from state schools are idiots or that everyone at a state school is an idiot. I just do not, in any way, agree that you can say GPA is anywhere near standardized. We're supposed to be scientists here and the range is just too large to ever bee useful as a comparison between schools.
 
We're supposed to be scientists here and the range is just too large to ever bee useful as a comparison between schools.

No, physicians are not scientists, but they are supposed to apply scientific knowledge. Kind of like the difference between a physicist and engineer.

Anyway, you're right about some of your post, but the admissions process isn't always rational or evidence-based. It is what it is and you just have to get through the hoops.

It doesn't get any better. There is quite a bit of published research showing that USMLE Step I doesn't predict performance in residency, but it's still the gold standard for selection in competitive specialties. 🙄
 
Yes, I understand what he points out but my whole point was that this is ridiculous since this could not be further from the truth. I also don't think adcom's assume that undergraduate gpa is anywhere near standardized. As I said (and as you said), they are just USED to dealing with it.




Good point. I agree...but is the degree actually *required* or just the pre-reqs?



This is kind of circular. I disagree because I don't believe it is, or is even close to being so...which is why i posted. I don't have to take Law2doc's opinion as fact when I know from experience that undergrad can range from night to day in how difficult they are. I transferred from one ivy to another after freshman year, did my grad degree at a state school where I had to teach undergrads. The first ivy was, itself, much harder than the second...and the state school undergrads that I taught, with exceptions, would have been chum at either of the schools; some have very poor mastery of the chemistry I taught but still maintained 3.7+ GPAs because the professors wrote easy tests, graded more liberally that expected less of the class on whole because they don't KNOW the backgrounds of everyone in the class. The people who got into a top school are supposedly exceptionally well-prepared for college and in a state school there is a mixture.

I know someone's going to scream that not all state schools are like this (and I agree) but probability-wise, you end up with a lot more in a state undergrad with an average 3.4 high school gpa/1000 SAT than a 4.0/1400+ SAT acceptance average school. It's just the way undergrad goes. Again, I'm not saying premeds from state schools are idiots or that everyone at a state school is an idiot. I just do not, in any way, agree that you can say GPA is anywhere near standardized. We're supposed to be scientists here and the range is just too large to ever bee useful as a comparison between schools.


I could not agree with you more. I will add something too, I don't know what the goal of an admissions committee is, but I think they should be trying to get the people who they think will be the best doctors, and I think that a graduate degree (other than MD) has the potential to make someone a better doctor. It also has the potential to prove that one hasd the ability to succeed in medical school. It does not, however, factor into US News rankings, for instance.

It is ridiculous to compare undergrad GPA's within certain majors at one school and that is the same for the same major, in many instances, at two different schools. I have so many examples of this and so much experience related to this. I've had the opportunity to have transferred from one very difficult engineering program into another, done a Master's degree and taken courses at "difficult" state schools, courses that the students from other highly ranked state schools thought were incredibly difficult, yet were so easy in comparison to my courses, it was laughable.

The use of the a raw undergrad gpa in making a direct comparison of two applicants is a useless task.
 
Just keep in mind a few things here.
1. People posting on here are not necessarily well aware how every single adcom thinks. Some may think it useless to go get a masters i.e. top schools that would rather have someone who has always been at the top from the get go. Other schools look at it favorably if you show a high degree of change in GPA.
2. It depends on whether the masters program you are doing is one where a lot of the grade is based on your research or one where you are taking all in class courses mostly. The latter of the 2 groups is an applied masters rather then a thesis masters and requires a lot more test taking like ugrad and maybe one class where a review article is written. that's how the masters programs at USF med are designed for the purpose of people needing to enhance apps.
3. MS programs are not easy. Although i've got a high GPA, I know people with right at the cutoff. I know people who've had to retake courses and others who've gotten Cs or barely got by with Bs. Its about what you put into it.
4. Talk to adcom directors of schools of interest because I've found things I've asked on SDN in the past not to be true when I talked with adcom directors at USF COM and other med schools in Fl.
 
I know someone's going to scream that not all state schools are like this (and I agree) but probability-wise, you end up with a lot more in a state undergrad with an average 3.4 high school gpa/1000 SAT than a 4.0/1400+ SAT acceptance average school. It's just the way undergrad goes. Again, I'm not saying premeds from state schools are idiots or that everyone at a state school is an idiot. I just do not, in any way, agree that you can say GPA is anywhere near standardized. We're supposed to be scientists here and the range is just too large to ever bee useful as a comparison between schools.

well, then there's the fact that high schools vary in difficulty level. I was in the bottom third of my high school class, but my high school is ranked 4th nationally by USNEWS. Colleges truly don't give a crap about which high school you came from. Thus I ended up in a state school, but im destroying the kids here. So what, med schools are going to discriminate against me because I didn't do well in HIGH SCHOOL, and thus went to a state school?? I agree that not all colleges are on equal ground when it comes to difficulty, but it is really unfair to discriminate or "add weight" to some gpa's and not others. Sometimes it's really out of your control where you end up for college, so you have to do the best with what you have.

that's just my humble opinion. i completely understand your argument and it is really unfortunate that schools don't have some level of standardization, but it would be too unfair to have adjusted gpa's
 
that's just my humble opinion. i completely understand your argument and it is really unfortunate that schools don't have some level of standardization, but it would be too unfair to have adjusted gpa's

I hear you. And I'm saying it is what it is. Undergrad GPAs are extremely widely varied. And I'd actually be surprised if they objectively compared applicants GPAs in the comparative sense. Wherever you go, you should excel. Therefore, in med schools eyes, a high GPA undergrad is desirable no matter where it is attained and a lower GPA is not as desirable. I also went to a private high school that was tough and it sucked when my public high school friends had a 4.2/4.0 (um...how is that even possible unless you're just handing out points, right?!) but I digress. It just really bothers me when people like to pretend that undergraduate GPAs are worth anything from school to school when there is such a large variance.

I didn't say there should be adjusted GPAs either, that would be an impossible task. I just think GPA is taken within the context of an applicant and not used strictly as a numerical way to compare applicants...that is what the MCAT is for. My post was more a rebuttal to the statement that ugrad GPAs are somehow more standardized than grad GPAs. Half the people in the thread seem to think that "all" graduate schools are easy, so wouldn't grad gpa then be more standardized? Obviously these are both silly arguments.
 
it irks me when i meet someone and discuss my educational background and i get "pooh pooh"ed, for lack of a better word. no one should get a master's (not including SMPs) for purposes of improving an application, IMO. i also think people assume that i did it for that purpose, which is not the case. it was something that i was interested in at the time (and still am). i didn't have aspirations of going to med school back then.

I had the dean of admissions at one school tell me that I should get a masters in order to improve my application. So there ya go for irony. Of course, it doesn't fix an undergrad GPA or even sometimes get notice, so there's the distinct possibility that it won't get recognized at all. I think a PhD would be noticed, for sure though.

well, then there's the fact that high schools vary in difficulty level. I was in the bottom third of my high school class, but my high school is ranked 4th nationally by USNEWS. Colleges truly don't give a crap about which high school you came from. Thus I ended up in a state school, but im destroying the kids here. So what, med schools are going to discriminate against me because I didn't do well in HIGH SCHOOL, and thus went to a state school?? I agree that not all colleges are on equal ground when it comes to difficulty, but it is really unfair to discriminate or "add weight" to some gpa's and not others. Sometimes it's really out of your control where you end up for college, so you have to do the best with what you have.

Yeah they do. Coming from college admissions, I can tell you that they most certainly do care. Like TJHSST? Number one on that US News list? Oh, the top colleges care a lot. As in, UVa sets aside 100 spots for TJ grads every year (there are ~400 in each graduating class).

But of course, there are the kids who come from high school X, and the valedictorian does poorly in college yet the kid who was ranked #200 out of 250 gets a 4.0. In many ways, college is a great equalizer because it gives people the opportunity to study what they want (versus what the state board tells them they must take).

I'm pretty sure med schools just have a list of undergrads, according to tiers, that they take into consideration when looking at GPAs. Top tier schools allow for the benefit of the doubt whereas lower tier ones don't. But standardization will never happen because there are simply too many variables-you could take organic chem 1 at 10 different schools and end up with a different grade in each course (except by the 10th time I would hope it would be an A, lol).
 
At my university, grad students tend to take just one or two courses each semester (the rest of the time is just research). In addition, unlike undergraduate courses, graduate level courses don't have mandatory grade cutoffs. While many undergraduate courses are required to have a B average, there is no such requirement for graduate level courses. This may be a reason that generally graduate school grades are higher than undergraduate grades.
 
Yeah they do. Coming from college admissions, I can tell you that they most certainly do care. Like TJHSST? Number one on that US News list? Oh, the top colleges care a lot. As in, UVa sets aside 100 spots for TJ grads every year (there are ~400 in each graduating class).

But of course, there are the kids who come from high school X, and the valedictorian does poorly in college yet the kid who was ranked #200 out of 250 gets a 4.0. In many ways, college is a great equalizer because it gives people the opportunity to study what they want (versus what the state board tells them they must take).

well apparently that high school is an exception to the rule. I got NO love from colleges for going to a top HS.

anyways, the bottom line is that grad school will not cloak or make up for your undergrad. the best thing to do is take as many more UG classes as you can to boost up your UG gpa. also retake the mcat and any D's or F's you may have gotten in the past.
 
I could not agree with you more. I will add something too, I don't know what the goal of an admissions committee is, but I think they should be trying to get the people who they think will be the best doctors, and I think that a graduate degree (other than MD) has the potential to make someone a better doctor. It also has the potential to prove that one hasd the ability to succeed in medical school. It does not, however, factor into US News rankings, for instance.
The goal of an adcom is, among other things, to get a class full of people who will make it through the curriculum, pass the boards, and become licensed physicians. You might think that grad school is good preparation for med school, but it isn't. The skills you need to succeed in one versus the other are not even located on the same portion of the planet, never mind overlapping one another. Medical school rewards people who can learn massive amounts of information and regurgitate it. Anyone who tried to get through grad school that way would flunk out. Conversely, many successful PhDs who go on to med school struggle mightily for the first two years. The kids who came straight out of college and just spent the past four years doing nothing but memorize-then-regurgitate can run rings around them in the classroom, and they do.

As pseudoknot already said, most physicians aren't scientists, even though they know a lot about science and they use science to do their job. Grad degrees are not the way to go if becoming a clinician is your ultimate goal. The purpose of a grad degree is to get training for a career in research, not to serve as a stepping stone to med school for people who didn't do well enough in UG. (Note: I am saying this with the caveat that SMPs do not fall in this category, since these degrees, albeit graduate degrees, exist for the purpose of getting people into med school, not teaching them to be scientists.)

To answer the OP's question, no, your grad GPA won't make up for your UG GPA. If you don't get off the waitlist, you might consider adding on a lot more schools this time around. 15-20 should be reasonable. Your MCAT is about average for allo matriculants, and your UG GPA is below average. But it's not prohibitively low if you apply broadly to schools that take residents of your state and whose missions match your interests. Best of luck to you. 🙂
 
The goal of an adcom is, among other things, to get a class full of people who will make it through the curriculum, pass the boards, and become licensed physicians. You might think that grad school is good preparation for med school, but it isn't. The skills you need to succeed in one versus the other are not even located on the same portion of the planet, never mind overlapping one another. Medical school rewards people who can learn massive amounts of information and regurgitate it. Anyone who tried to get through grad school that way would flunk out. Conversely, many successful PhDs who go on to med school struggle mightily for the first two years. The kids who came straight out of college and just spent the past four years doing nothing but memorize-then-regurgitate can run rings around them in the classroom, and they do.

As pseudoknot already said, most physicians aren't scientists, even though they know a lot about science and they use science to do their job. Grad degrees are not the way to go if becoming a clinician is your ultimate goal. The purpose of a grad degree is to get training for a career in research, not to serve as a stepping stone to med school for people who didn't do well enough in UG. (Note: I am saying this with the caveat that SMPs do not fall in this category, since these degrees, albeit graduate degrees, exist for the purpose of getting people into med school, not teaching them to be scientists.)

To answer the OP's question, no, your grad GPA won't make up for your UG GPA. If you don't get off the waitlist, you might consider adding on a lot more schools this time around. 15-20 should be reasonable. Your MCAT is about average for allo matriculants, and your UG GPA is below average. But it's not prohibitively low if you apply broadly to schools that take residents of your state and whose missions match your interests. Best of luck to you. 🙂


I think the big thing a lot of people are confusing are the 2 types of masters

A traditional research masters probably differs very much from med school.

An applied masters, however, i.e. SMPs and the MSMS programs at USF COM such as my program, are not research masters where we spend most of our days in labs doing research. They are masters programs designed to help people get the basics down and strengthening applications for med, vet, dental, and pharm school. In fact, they even advertise as such on our website. The program is nothing short of pure regurgitation with many powerpoints that are made up of slides from medical school powerpoints for the 1st and second years. Its pure memorization like first 2 years of med school and most adcoms encourage that sort of masters if you are trying to improve chances of getting into med school. It won't make up for a poor ugrad GPA but it will show a positive trend in science upper level courses which is what they want. that is what the adcom members here have told me.

That said, if I was to have done a research masters on main campus where most of the grades come from research and not coursework that is tests and exams like med school, I'd probably not be doing myself any service as those might get me better jobs but not into med school
 
I think I recall a LizzyM post where she said she expect graduate GPAs to be nearing 4.0's. It's an expectation and not an achievement unless you're in an SMP.
 
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