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Discuss.
Does it matter where you go for undergrad when applying for medical school?
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in my mind, it is a credential and just another way to gain respect from the admissions committee, but it is not the only determinant in the process. Good grades are still the most important thing in my mind. However, if you want to get into a top 10, I think the quality of the school begins to matter more.
another thing to consider is that adcoms may know that it is tougher to get higher grades at certain schools. for instance, I know many people who went to duke and columbia - people from these schools seem to complain more about the competitiveness that probably is just a direct result of these schools attracting students who are strong academically. thus, in this particular situation, I would rather choose a 3.5 from columbia than a 3.9 from a state school. this is just my opinion though seeing how a 3.9 from any school is still very respectable.
another thing to consider is that adcoms may know that it is tougher to get higher grades at certain schools. for instance, I know many people who went to duke and columbia - people from these schools seem to complain more about the competitiveness that probably is just a direct result of these schools attracting students who are strong academically. thus, in this particular situation, I would rather choose a 3.5 from columbia than a 3.9 from a state school. this is just my opinion though seeing how a 3.9 from any school is still very respectable.
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Nah just go to the absolute worst possible college that you could possibly think of. You will be as good as Ivy in the eyes of ad comms.
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No, I am living proof that it does not matter *if* everything else is good, gpa, mcat, good solid lor's, research etc... I received more than 20 interviews including top 5 schools. Went on 11 and received so far 9 acceptances. I am not trying to brag or anything just to make a point that no matter what school you attend it is really up to you to make yourself competitive. I go to a no-name school in the South that usually nobody has heard of and have had no problem.
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No single person is living proof against an idea. Just like anything else in the process, where you went to undergrad can carry some weight depending on where you apply. Some med schools weigh undergrad heavily (I've asked admissions deans about this), and some weigh it less heavily.
Obviously, there are people from lesser known schools at Harvard med and Hopkins med, just less of them than those from big name undergrads. This can easily be seen by looking at the "undergrads represented" list on a med school's website.
Anyone from any undergrad can get into any med school, but going to a better undergrad can stack the deck in your favor. The same goes for residencies--anyone from any med school can get into any residency. But checking the match lists at med schools will show that some schools place people into more bigger name residencies. There are no certainties in this process, so please don't respond with stories of your 10 friends from State U who got into top 5 med schools. In some individual cases, going to a big name undergrad may not help at all, but why not try to give yourself every advantage possible?
Another thing to consider--going to a more selective undergrad means you'll be graded on a curve with smarter people, so it will be harder to maintain top grades. This just means you have to work a little harder. A 4.0 from State U will probably be looked upon more favorably than a 3.0 from Harvard. But adcoms are people too, so all else being equal, would you take a 3.7 from Harvard or a 3.9 from a no-name school?
Obviously, there are people from lesser known schools at Harvard med and Hopkins med, just less of them than those from big name undergrads. This can easily be seen by looking at the "undergrads represented" list on a med school's website.
Anyone from any undergrad can get into any med school, but going to a better undergrad can stack the deck in your favor. The same goes for residencies--anyone from any med school can get into any residency. But checking the match lists at med schools will show that some schools place people into more bigger name residencies. There are no certainties in this process, so please don't respond with stories of your 10 friends from State U who got into top 5 med schools. In some individual cases, going to a big name undergrad may not help at all, but why not try to give yourself every advantage possible?
Another thing to consider--going to a more selective undergrad means you'll be graded on a curve with smarter people, so it will be harder to maintain top grades. This just means you have to work a little harder. A 4.0 from State U will probably be looked upon more favorably than a 3.0 from Harvard. But adcoms are people too, so all else being equal, would you take a 3.7 from Harvard or a 3.9 from a no-name school?
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Are you URM? If you are, you are giving non-URMs false hope with your example. Comparing URM admissions to ORM admissions is simple apples and oranges. ORMs are held to different standards and ORMs need to realize that. All the average MCAT scores that schools post include URMs. Therefore, they are not reflective of actual nonURM averages. In reality, one must score slightly higher than the school's posted average MCAT and GPA.
It's not about URM's or ORM's or any other BS like that. All it comes down to is that someone who was able to get into a good undergrad is more likely to be someone who would wanna go to med school to begin with. Sure adcoms can't help but look at Harvard more favorably than a state school. However, I think that's just an indication of a person's reputation or whatever. It's kinda like, simply going to Harvard in itself is like an extra recommendation in a way.
Where the hell did that URM stuff come from? All this person was saying is that you need to be a competitive applicant....and that's true everywhere.
Where the hell did that URM stuff come from? All this person was saying is that you need to be a competitive applicant....and that's true everywhere.
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True. It is important to perform well in all aspects to gain acceptance into a top school. However, there is proof that such is easier for minorities.
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WTF? All I stated, is that I am living proof that no matter what school you go to (regardless of Ivy league status of that school) will make no difference *IF* you are a competitive applicant. I really do not understand the notion that if you go to a really good school reputation wise that you "must" be smater than someone that may have *chosen* for various reasons (money, location, family) to go to a less known school. There are people of all kinds in all school and you will find lazy people at the good schools and smart people at the less known schools, it boils down on "how bad you want it" period. Yes, I am sure that some adcoms give some "brownie points" for going to a top ten undergrad but that probably does not amount to much.....The URM stuff is getting really really really old. Regardless of URM status you still have to do well in undergrad, get a decent MCAT score, have good solid LOR's, volunteering, and for some schools research experience. No, being URM will not automatically get you into medical school as much as some folks would like to believe that it just does not happen.
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So, are you URM?
Just out of curiosity.
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Being a URM will NOT automatically get you into med school. But it helps you out. The pool a URM is competing with does not have as high of an avg. in terms of numbers as the pool of a white/ORM applicant. This is not to say that URM's do not work hard. This is just to say that their numbers don't have to be as high to distinguish themselves from their pool.
But for those of you who are aggravated by URM's please, don't hate the player. Hate the game (if even that). Everybody is working hard, let's give everyone props for that. 🙂
-Ice
You know what? First of all, technically, there is no such thing as an URM anymore, at least not the way we're all so used to thinking about it. Why does it come to this so often? You people need to check yourselves. Are you saying that URM's are more likely to go to state schools? That's true. Hmmm, I wonder why that is?... I bet we don't wanna talk about it any further than that though, do you? Some people always bring this up to make it look as if they have it harder or URMs have it easy, and it's BS. Can anyone explain why URM=Under-Represented Minority, if it's so easy?
You know what, forget it. I could rant on, but screw it. All I know is that my stats are on point. And when I get there, I'm gonna flip out on anyone who even insinuates that I was held to a lower standard. You need to be careful with that.
But yeah, your GPA is looked at in relation to your own school's average. I think that's as tangible as it can get.
You know what, forget it. I could rant on, but screw it. All I know is that my stats are on point. And when I get there, I'm gonna flip out on anyone who even insinuates that I was held to a lower standard. You need to be careful with that.
But yeah, your GPA is looked at in relation to your own school's average. I think that's as tangible as it can get.
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Yes it does. When I rotated at UCSF, I was talking to one of the docs there who is on the admissions committee. He showed me the evaluation forms for some of the current applicants. The form is used to determine if the student gets an interview. It is all done on a point system. Included in your score is the quality of your undergrad. The "better" your undergrad, the higher your score. Out of the UC schools, he said that only UCLA and UC berk get you the high score. Moreover, if the MCATs are not yet it, they assign you a projected score based on your undergrad institution. The MCAT score was given a six point scale. Had you gone to Berk or LA, your were projectively given six points until your real scores came in. I thought it was interesting, and it made me damn glad to be in medical school as it seemed like a nightmare process. Good thing I went through it blindly the first time and just ended up getting in, because knowing it was all about points would drive me nuts!!!
He was also telling me that the current UCSF students are used as part of the interview process and that they are the toughest of the evaluators. He said one guy had gotten great marks on interviews, including his own, but one student was so adamant that he not be admitted, that they didn't admit him based on her evaluation of him. How ****ed is that? All the docs are fine with bringing you on board, but the student shoots you down!
He was also telling me that the current UCSF students are used as part of the interview process and that they are the toughest of the evaluators. He said one guy had gotten great marks on interviews, including his own, but one student was so adamant that he not be admitted, that they didn't admit him based on her evaluation of him. How ****ed is that? All the docs are fine with bringing you on board, but the student shoots you down!
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Why are you so upset? On this board URM means "under-represented-minority" IN MEDICINE. So that means that for a minority to be considered a URM, there must be fewer percentage of minority doctors relative to the minority population than there are people of that minority relative to the population as a whole.
It IS a fact that the average numbers for a pool of URM med school candidates is lower than those of a pool of white/ORM candidates. That is NOT to say that an individual URM is any less qualified to be a doctor than a white/ORM candidate. That just means that they (URM candidates) don't have to have as high numbers to distinguish themselves from their own pool.
Additionally, I don't think any of us presume to know you or your stats. I'd venture to guess that you have great numbers and you'd make a fine doctor. I think diversity is important, so if it's me you are mad at, then I apologize.
Now don't get me started on legacy admits, because that's when I start to go off the wall (and rager1 who peruses this board knows this very well 😉).
-Ice
It depends on which school you apply to. I know for a fact that some schools only make qualitative deductions about your prospects for success in med school while others have a ranking system much like in high-school where your gpa is quantitatively adjusted for comparison sake. Individual schools take the liberty of weighing your gpa as they see fit. That being said, in hind sight, all else being equal (MCATs, recs, etc.) I would prefer a high gpa from a mediocre school than a mediocre gpa from an excellent school. Why? Because the former gives you a higher probability of garnering at least one acceptance, in my opinion.
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You're gonna ask the same question when you apply for residencies and fellowships and jobs. Does your background matter in obtaining a certain position?
Yes it does to some extent. Realize that some programs are used to seeing great students come from one school that they have an automatic positive bias towards that school, while other members of the admissions committee have had bad experience with certain students from another school and so have a negative bias towards them. So one thing to look at is how is your school's track record with a given med school or residency program.
Obviously going to a school with a lot of bang can bring attention. At the same time, if your school is just average, you're gonna need other stuff to get their attention.
I went to an Ivy undergrad and go to a decent but not high caliber (in my opinion) med school. I had a small group professor say on the first day of the class "I remember your application. You guys are welcomed at our school anyday," and at the same time, I've have my equal share of rejection letters that I have sinced urinated on. Just realize that now that you're in college, it's nothing that you can control. However, also realize that in the process of choosing med schools, reputation may matter. It's up to you to determine whether or not the reputation is worth all the negative crap that goes on in that med school. How much of a prostitute are you?
But if you're in college right now and applying or getting ready to apply for next year, chill out, figure out what are the things that you can control and go for it.
Yes it does to some extent. Realize that some programs are used to seeing great students come from one school that they have an automatic positive bias towards that school, while other members of the admissions committee have had bad experience with certain students from another school and so have a negative bias towards them. So one thing to look at is how is your school's track record with a given med school or residency program.
Obviously going to a school with a lot of bang can bring attention. At the same time, if your school is just average, you're gonna need other stuff to get their attention.
I went to an Ivy undergrad and go to a decent but not high caliber (in my opinion) med school. I had a small group professor say on the first day of the class "I remember your application. You guys are welcomed at our school anyday," and at the same time, I've have my equal share of rejection letters that I have sinced urinated on. Just realize that now that you're in college, it's nothing that you can control. However, also realize that in the process of choosing med schools, reputation may matter. It's up to you to determine whether or not the reputation is worth all the negative crap that goes on in that med school. How much of a prostitute are you?
But if you're in college right now and applying or getting ready to apply for next year, chill out, figure out what are the things that you can control and go for it.
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The answer is NO. What matters is the person who applies, his grades, his test scores, his essay, his ec's, his letter of recs. Proof: there are people on this forum who apply from Ivy League schools and are still waiting for an acceptance whereas there are people with great stats from lower-ranked undergrads who currently hold multiple acceptances. Names are just that - just names. But it's the substance of the applicant that really matters.
in following this thread i had two quick observations:
1) first, let's face it, to get 20 interviews and 9/11 acceptances (so far) is pretty phenomenal, whether you are an URM or not. so bravo! however, that being said, i don't think BigRedPingpong was trying to belittle your achievements when he asked about your URM status. it seems pretty obvious that the top applicants, URM or not, will receive lots of interviews. however, in my experience, the top URMs have a higher acceptance rate than whites or ORMS, because there are FEWER of them applying and because the schools are committed to recruiting them.
2) also, i think there's another issue to be considered here. namely, that applicants from the ivies and other top schools are probably a little bit more selective about where they apply (due, at least in part, to some basal level of elitism). coming from someplace like harvard, it's hard (psychologically, i guess) for some students to consider going anywhere but the top medical schools. my roommate is going through a situation like this right now, in that he is trying to decide between reapplying next year or going to, at least what he considers, a lesser medical school. thus, in this way, i think any advantage that students from the top schools have is cancelled out by the fact that, for the most part, they apply to more selective schools.
comments are welcome,
aaron
1) first, let's face it, to get 20 interviews and 9/11 acceptances (so far) is pretty phenomenal, whether you are an URM or not. so bravo! however, that being said, i don't think BigRedPingpong was trying to belittle your achievements when he asked about your URM status. it seems pretty obvious that the top applicants, URM or not, will receive lots of interviews. however, in my experience, the top URMs have a higher acceptance rate than whites or ORMS, because there are FEWER of them applying and because the schools are committed to recruiting them.
2) also, i think there's another issue to be considered here. namely, that applicants from the ivies and other top schools are probably a little bit more selective about where they apply (due, at least in part, to some basal level of elitism). coming from someplace like harvard, it's hard (psychologically, i guess) for some students to consider going anywhere but the top medical schools. my roommate is going through a situation like this right now, in that he is trying to decide between reapplying next year or going to, at least what he considers, a lesser medical school. thus, in this way, i think any advantage that students from the top schools have is cancelled out by the fact that, for the most part, they apply to more selective schools.
comments are welcome,
aaron
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I'm sure the strength of undergrad education is factored in at many schools, especially the ones with large number of applicants. However, prestige of the school doesn't always equal strength of premed program, but most brand name schools have hard programs anyway.
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Sure it does matter, to some extent.
Yes, I agree it's about the individual applicant, and all aspects of his/her application. But, if you have two applicants with identical credentials - i.e. the same MCAT score, GPA, Science GPA, clinical experiences, LOR's, URM/non-URM status, and whatever else the admissions committee looks at - but one attended a top-20 ugrad institution and the other attended a branch campus state-U, the top-20 kid will most likely get the nod.
Yes, I agree it's about the individual applicant, and all aspects of his/her application. But, if you have two applicants with identical credentials - i.e. the same MCAT score, GPA, Science GPA, clinical experiences, LOR's, URM/non-URM status, and whatever else the admissions committee looks at - but one attended a top-20 ugrad institution and the other attended a branch campus state-U, the top-20 kid will most likely get the nod.
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First of all the thing that matters the most in admissions process :
undergraduate achievement matters more than undergraduate prestige !
Just because one went to a prestigious school doesn't mean that they are a shoe in. The reason behind the "success" in numbers of elite colleges -> med schools is of course because they cluster with students who study hard and usually do well both in their academic exams and the MCATs.
There are other things that are taken into account though. For example regional favoritism ( UNC -> Duke med, UMD -> Hopkins, Mizzou/Truman State -> WashU etc).
If a student manages to shine in whatever undergraduate institution they are going to get into med school. I was looking at a profile of an applicant from UMSL (that i think i offended on SDN) on mdapplicants.com and he is in at Loyola. At the same time he is going to have classmates from UChicago, Northwestern and Ivy leagues.
Not everyone from an Ivy league is going to make a top 20 med school (look at the people at Tufts) nor are people from not famous undergrads are not going to make it into med school.
In my interviews i have met people from all over the place. Harvard, MIT, Truman State, UIUC, UMN, UCSD, SUNYs, etc.
Just try your best. You should know the process by now. If you play your cards correctly, you are going to get in somewhere good.
Tezzie
PS. I did attend a prestigious undergrad (i think) and i am heading to a prestigious med school if that means anything.
undergraduate achievement matters more than undergraduate prestige !
Just because one went to a prestigious school doesn't mean that they are a shoe in. The reason behind the "success" in numbers of elite colleges -> med schools is of course because they cluster with students who study hard and usually do well both in their academic exams and the MCATs.
There are other things that are taken into account though. For example regional favoritism ( UNC -> Duke med, UMD -> Hopkins, Mizzou/Truman State -> WashU etc).
If a student manages to shine in whatever undergraduate institution they are going to get into med school. I was looking at a profile of an applicant from UMSL (that i think i offended on SDN) on mdapplicants.com and he is in at Loyola. At the same time he is going to have classmates from UChicago, Northwestern and Ivy leagues.
Not everyone from an Ivy league is going to make a top 20 med school (look at the people at Tufts) nor are people from not famous undergrads are not going to make it into med school.
In my interviews i have met people from all over the place. Harvard, MIT, Truman State, UIUC, UMN, UCSD, SUNYs, etc.
Just try your best. You should know the process by now. If you play your cards correctly, you are going to get in somewhere good.
Tezzie
PS. I did attend a prestigious undergrad (i think) and i am heading to a prestigious med school if that means anything.
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Sorry Big Red Pong but you are always first to look down on people and give your lame advice about academic prestige.
However i see you are coming from Cornell and at the same time i don't see you breaking into a top 10 (heck not even a top 20). What happened to your academic prestige helping you?
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This has been posted to death. It's official. I find it funny that the people who disregard reputation not helping either currently go to a "prestigious" ugrad or are applying to "prestigious" medical schools. They claim that prestige is meaningless to themselves and others yet look at where they want to be (or where they're applying from). Actions speak louder than posts, sorry.
It matters, not sure how much.
http://www.amherst.edu/~sageorge/guide1.html
3.1/28+... I'd love more analytical evidence.
It matters, not sure how much.
http://www.amherst.edu/~sageorge/guide1.html
3.1/28+... I'd love more analytical evidence.
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Yes, I think some have misconstrued my comments as URM bashing namely Tezzie:
I assure you, I am not looking down on anyone. If you find my advice lame, good for you. I never made any claims on breaking top 20, top 10 or top anything due to being a student at Cornell. In fact, I am happy just to have made it through this process.
However, a post responder gave an example of how she was able to get into great schools (top five or something like that). This is a very good accomplishment and I congratulate you. However, if you are URM, you example does not apply to non-URMs. They won't have the same leverage as you when the final ball drops and decisions are made on who gets in and who doesn't. This is Affirmative action. Is it good? Is it bad? This is a topic of another thread. The truth is that it exists. That is all I am saying! I never, not once, said you are less qualified than a ORM applicant. I just wanted ORMs to be clear about the situation.
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God forbid we place some emphasis on our individuality and not ride on our undergrads reputation.
When people apply to colleges they want to claim how different and unique they are and what sets them apart. Whenever you see them talking about professional schools though then the true face comes around and says "i am a part of the elite colleges and i belong to that better group".
Yes i did attend a prestigious undergrad institution. Yes i am going to a prestigious med school. What is left unsaid though is what i accomplished between those two. I never belonged to a pre-med club, nor did i have a pre-med track advisor. Instead i decided to follow my own path. When i started getting involved in the community i wasn't even thinking about the application process. What got me in was my unique interest in everything that i did. I never did anything so i could just write it down on a piece of paper for future adcoms. I was a competitive applicant because i had a great MCAT score, a good GPA and ECs that i did because i believed in them.
The only thing that i got out of a prestigious undergrad was the fact that they gave me money for research at some point (i still can't believe that they did that).
I loved my educational experience. I grew as a person, i learned new things and i got to meet great people. However i don't believe it was the card that won the game for me.
Actually that guide is funny. You can see that Amherst is actually just playing with numbers. The 3.1/28+ of course *COULD* get someone into med school (chances are their in state school excluding CA). Now the interesting part :
"What are my chances of getting into Harvard Medical School?"
About 4%. Of the 20 to 30 Amherst students and graduates who apply to Harvard Medical School in a given year, usually between zero and two are accepted there. We note this not to discourage anyone from applying to Harvard, but just to advise against pinning all your hopes on Harvard or any other single school.
So if Amherst in any given year has about 280 applicants to medical school, only 20-30 of those apply to Harvard (and chances are that those are the same people who apply to Hopkins etc). Which means that Amherst produces 20-30 "competitive" applicants each year and even from those only a handfull will get into the elite med schools.
For an elite school, their numbers are not doing them any favors.
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Sorry but so far you have been mentioning how an elite undergrad helps. Yet in your case you are going from an elite undergrad to a run of the mill med school. I don't see how your advice holds truth when by your personal example exposes it to be otherwise.
I am not sure if you are talking about efex or me. Let me see :
a) Efex had great numbers, she is a war veteran (i mean that is an outstanding EC that prof schools crave), a mother with great scores and great personality. Does it surprise you that she broke into top 10 schools?
b) I am *NOT* URM. I will admit that i go to a "top 10" USNWR undergraduate school though. However as i said to Peter above , i truly didn't think that it helped me that much (or any).
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Tezzie,
I really think you are being hypocritical by downplaying university prestige (and what I really mean is competitiveness) and then having your top choice medical schools conveniently be the most prestigious... As with most ugrads, I really doubt you have had a lot of contact with Hopkins, Harvard, Wash U and Duke yet through some freak accident these were your top choices (well I know 2 of those 4 were some of your top choices anyway). Why is that? Who knows. You give a lot of lip service to bucking the elitest system but your school attendence would suggest otherwise. Take it for what it's worth.
Just b/c you feel your school's rep didn't help you really doesn't prove anything. Your "I'm a unique snowflake" speech (a snowflake who brags quite often) is amusingly trite, but for the most part, medical students are from highly homogenous backgrounds (be it stats, ECs, family backgrounds etc). I've read enough about you to know that stats wise, you are a fantastic applicant in all regards, and I will easily admit that a 4.0/40 mcat + research and tons of volunteering from any school will give you a great chance at any school. This is about the pre-med commoners, the mediocre matriculated gpa'ers and mcat'ers. Not the pre-med studs.
As far as the link is concerned, Amherst isn't doing much for the Harvard applicants, but I bet you know the type of schools most Harvard med students went for ugrad. There's a ridiculous represenation from "elite" schools and this fact cannot be argued. ~Maybe it has nothing to do with the school itself but just the highly concentrated quality of students (which would still by synonymous with the prestige argument).
Last time I checked, most state medical schools still had average acceptances of 3.5-3.7gpas and 27-30 MCATs. Most likely you'll have lowish gpa'ers and MCATers clumped together at a school like Amherst... meaning that a 3.3/29 from Amherst will get you into your state school (that ain't happening if you went to a state school and had the same stats).
BTW, nice Harvard analysis. You completely blow off the state schools b/c you don't think they matter. Apparently "only" getting into state schools is a trivial matter and we should all just care about Harvard. BEING THAT PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER. 🙄
I really think you are being hypocritical by downplaying university prestige (and what I really mean is competitiveness) and then having your top choice medical schools conveniently be the most prestigious... As with most ugrads, I really doubt you have had a lot of contact with Hopkins, Harvard, Wash U and Duke yet through some freak accident these were your top choices (well I know 2 of those 4 were some of your top choices anyway). Why is that? Who knows. You give a lot of lip service to bucking the elitest system but your school attendence would suggest otherwise. Take it for what it's worth.
Just b/c you feel your school's rep didn't help you really doesn't prove anything. Your "I'm a unique snowflake" speech (a snowflake who brags quite often) is amusingly trite, but for the most part, medical students are from highly homogenous backgrounds (be it stats, ECs, family backgrounds etc). I've read enough about you to know that stats wise, you are a fantastic applicant in all regards, and I will easily admit that a 4.0/40 mcat + research and tons of volunteering from any school will give you a great chance at any school. This is about the pre-med commoners, the mediocre matriculated gpa'ers and mcat'ers. Not the pre-med studs.
As far as the link is concerned, Amherst isn't doing much for the Harvard applicants, but I bet you know the type of schools most Harvard med students went for ugrad. There's a ridiculous represenation from "elite" schools and this fact cannot be argued. ~Maybe it has nothing to do with the school itself but just the highly concentrated quality of students (which would still by synonymous with the prestige argument).
Last time I checked, most state medical schools still had average acceptances of 3.5-3.7gpas and 27-30 MCATs. Most likely you'll have lowish gpa'ers and MCATers clumped together at a school like Amherst... meaning that a 3.3/29 from Amherst will get you into your state school (that ain't happening if you went to a state school and had the same stats).
BTW, nice Harvard analysis. You completely blow off the state schools b/c you don't think they matter. Apparently "only" getting into state schools is a trivial matter and we should all just care about Harvard. BEING THAT PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER. 🙄
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For the record, my ugrad is the last thing I tell people, sometimes I intentionally avoid mentioning it all together. Individuality means very little in this process as we can easily see the % of acceptances increases with increasing MCAT scores. If "individuality" means this process respects individuals with good or unusually high MCAT scores, than I guess we agree.
Acceptance to medical school has very little to do with the things that really matter:
1) Caring about patients
2) Having the ability to care for patients
Unfortunately academic merit seems to play a much larger part than it should, especially consideirng the majority of docs do NOT go into academic medicine. Quite frankly, ugrad colleges are highly stratified by academic merit and you cannot fault medical schools OR RESIDENCIES for obviously being biased.
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To Tezzie:...
I'm not saying this to knock you or anything...I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on this forum. However...I'm a bit confused by your posts in this thread. You say that ugrad prestige matters to a negligible extent and that undergrad performance is much more of a factor than undergraduate prestige.
I largely agree...however...you downplay the advantage of going to a top 20 school and say that it really doesn't matter...what matters is the applicant...then you tell BigRedPingPong something to the effect of, "You went to a prestigious ugrad school...but are going to a run-of-the-mill med school." Does "run of the mill" imply that it is not prestigious or that it is inferior to the top 10 schools? Does "run of the mill" med school mean that it is a med school that is not in the top 10 or 20? If so, doesn't that one statement sorta contradict your whole premises because you downplay prestige...but then call NYU and whatever other med schools BigRedPingPong was accepted to "run of the mill" med schools because they're either a) not top 10 or 20 or b) not Ivy League.
I remember you using BigRedPingPong's own personal results as a reaffirmation of your argument that ugrad prestige is a very minor factor...seeing as he went to Cornell ugrad and is heading off to a "run of the mill" med school. However, couldn't someone use YOUR personal results as a reaffirmation of the argument that ugrad prestige is a VERY important factor because you're going from a top 10 ugrad school to a top 10 med school? You're going from one elite school to another elite school...no?
These links might clear up any misunderstandings. I have a link to the entering classes at Yale Law School and Johns Hopkins Medical School. Notice the OVERWHELMING amount of students from top 20 universities or top 20 liberal arts schools...and the tiny amount of students from outside the elite institutions.
Example: Yale Law School Data 2002-2003
University of Dayton------1 student matriculated
Providence College------1 student matriculated
State Univeristy of New York-Buffalo------1 student matriculated
Univeristy of Dallas------1 student matriculated
Harvard University-------80 students matriculated
Brown University----20 students matriculated
Columbia University----18 students matriculated
UC Berkeley-------22 students matriculated
Note: The key piece of info missing here is how many students APPLIED from each school. However, find that out on-line would be close to impossible.
Links: http://www.yale.edu/bulletin/pdffiles/law2002.pdf
[url]http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/Academics/Catalog/MCAT_11b.pdf
P.S.: To BigRedPingPong: I don't think any of the med schools you were accepted to were "run of the mill" med schools. I think they are ALL fine med schools and I congratulate you on your admissions. Best of luck to you and once again...congratulations!
I'm not saying this to knock you or anything...I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on this forum. However...I'm a bit confused by your posts in this thread. You say that ugrad prestige matters to a negligible extent and that undergrad performance is much more of a factor than undergraduate prestige.
I largely agree...however...you downplay the advantage of going to a top 20 school and say that it really doesn't matter...what matters is the applicant...then you tell BigRedPingPong something to the effect of, "You went to a prestigious ugrad school...but are going to a run-of-the-mill med school." Does "run of the mill" imply that it is not prestigious or that it is inferior to the top 10 schools? Does "run of the mill" med school mean that it is a med school that is not in the top 10 or 20? If so, doesn't that one statement sorta contradict your whole premises because you downplay prestige...but then call NYU and whatever other med schools BigRedPingPong was accepted to "run of the mill" med schools because they're either a) not top 10 or 20 or b) not Ivy League.
I remember you using BigRedPingPong's own personal results as a reaffirmation of your argument that ugrad prestige is a very minor factor...seeing as he went to Cornell ugrad and is heading off to a "run of the mill" med school. However, couldn't someone use YOUR personal results as a reaffirmation of the argument that ugrad prestige is a VERY important factor because you're going from a top 10 ugrad school to a top 10 med school? You're going from one elite school to another elite school...no?
These links might clear up any misunderstandings. I have a link to the entering classes at Yale Law School and Johns Hopkins Medical School. Notice the OVERWHELMING amount of students from top 20 universities or top 20 liberal arts schools...and the tiny amount of students from outside the elite institutions.
Example: Yale Law School Data 2002-2003
University of Dayton------1 student matriculated
Providence College------1 student matriculated
State Univeristy of New York-Buffalo------1 student matriculated
Univeristy of Dallas------1 student matriculated
Harvard University-------80 students matriculated
Brown University----20 students matriculated
Columbia University----18 students matriculated
UC Berkeley-------22 students matriculated
Note: The key piece of info missing here is how many students APPLIED from each school. However, find that out on-line would be close to impossible.
Links: http://www.yale.edu/bulletin/pdffiles/law2002.pdf
[url]http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/Academics/Catalog/MCAT_11b.pdf
P.S.: To BigRedPingPong: I don't think any of the med schools you were accepted to were "run of the mill" med schools. I think they are ALL fine med schools and I congratulate you on your admissions. Best of luck to you and once again...congratulations!
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I'm gonna be honest here. I think ugrad prestige MATTERS...but only at the top 20 or so med schools. In addition, I heard private schools take ugrad prestige much more seriously than public schools. I don't think ugrad prestige will play that big of a factor when applying to your local state school. However, when comparing two applicants that have the same GPA, same MCATs, same ECs, same quality essays, etc...and Applicant A comes from Yale whereas Applicant B comes from Montana State University...I think the adcom is more likely to accept Applicant A.
Seeing as I probably won't even be applying to that many schools in the top 20, I seriously doubt the prestige of my ugrad will play a factor. The one advantage I definitely have to admit to (concerning my ugrad school) is the research opportunities. There are TONS of research opportunities for undergraduates...and I'm pretty sure this helps out my fellow undergrads when it comes time to fill out graduate school applications, medical school applications, etc.
Seeing as I probably won't even be applying to that many schools in the top 20, I seriously doubt the prestige of my ugrad will play a factor. The one advantage I definitely have to admit to (concerning my ugrad school) is the research opportunities. There are TONS of research opportunities for undergraduates...and I'm pretty sure this helps out my fellow undergrads when it comes time to fill out graduate school applications, medical school applications, etc.
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Ugrad matters, URM status matters, legacy matters.
But so do GPA/MCAT, EC's, LOR's, & that interview thingy.
They ALL matter. I suppose ppl can only maximize what they can control. The top line they cannot, the bottom they can (once in ugrad, that is).
Worry about what you can control. 🙂
-Ice
But so do GPA/MCAT, EC's, LOR's, & that interview thingy.
They ALL matter. I suppose ppl can only maximize what they can control. The top line they cannot, the bottom they can (once in ugrad, that is).
Worry about what you can control. 🙂
-Ice
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So, is efex101 an URM? I just have to know.
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It only matters is IF you score SUB-30 on your MCAT.
If you score 30+ on the MCAT(this proves that you were not a product of grade inflation).
On the other hand, if you have a 3.80 UGPA and score a 23 on the MCAT. Your undergraduate preparation or will come into question.
If you score 30+ on the MCAT(this proves that you were not a product of grade inflation).
On the other hand, if you have a 3.80 UGPA and score a 23 on the MCAT. Your undergraduate preparation or will come into question.
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Yes I am *BUT* in more than one way IMHO. I am short, female, a mother, a veteran, non-traditional, and yes let us not forget of Mexican-American descent, I am fluent in Spanish, and many other things that although not considered URMhood by the AAMC are probably underrepresented. Did URM hood play the major part in all my interviews and acceptances? hell NO! My hard work did period. I know of many URMs and nonURMs that have not received acceptances yet so although yes, URMs may get *some* consideration just like being a woman does, just like being a veteran does (hmmm we never hear about this one do we now?) it will not guarantee anything in the admissions process. You still have to have superior number stats to get a lot of interviews/acceptances.
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All this talk of "elite schools" is making my head spin. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Don't let US News decide where you go to medical school. Go where you're happy and feel like you can effectively begin your journey into medicine. US News rank whoring is unbecoming.
Back on topic: Yes, the prestige of your undergrad matters some in admissions. However, if you succeed and do well at your undergrad (whether it be a SUNY or Princeton), you can't be held back.
tf
Back on topic: Yes, the prestige of your undergrad matters some in admissions. However, if you succeed and do well at your undergrad (whether it be a SUNY or Princeton), you can't be held back.
tf
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i was shocked at uci's white coat ceremony when i learned that only 3 students from a class of 92 came from the cal states. this may be due to the fact that on average cal state students score lower on the mcat, but i am more inclined to believe that people who went to more prestigious undergrads were given an advantage in the admissions process.
from personal experience i would say that undergrad school plays a role.
from personal experience i would say that undergrad school plays a role.
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I should clear up that none of my posts meant to offend you. I just think that using your example to motivate others is a bit unfair to those who do not have the same things under your belt. You didn't mention all those great things you did in your original post. This is a bit misleading to the *average* SDNer. They might be thinking, "gee, if she can do it, so can I. (without being a vetran, etc.etc.)"
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As someone so gracefully said earlier, everything matters! Your academic institution matters, your age, your scores, and your race matter, & c. (the Stanford algorithm for deciding who gets a secondary has been previously posted on this site, and can attest to that fact)! And if a particular medical school is looking for an arabian bellydancer to enhance its "diversity," then that is when your being an arabian bellydancer matters. Why is that so difficult to understand??!!
What bothers me most in reading these posts is how shamelessly offensive some people have opted to be. I can only hope that it is the application process stress talking, but if this process brings out the worst in you, it may be wise to spare everyone your presence in the years to come because your stress level is only bound to rise with the ins and outs of a medical school education....
Just my humble opinion
What bothers me most in reading these posts is how shamelessly offensive some people have opted to be. I can only hope that it is the application process stress talking, but if this process brings out the worst in you, it may be wise to spare everyone your presence in the years to come because your stress level is only bound to rise with the ins and outs of a medical school education....
Just my humble opinion
