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Does Panda Bear love the DOs?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by Jack Daniel, May 8, 2007.

  1. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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  3. DragonWell

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    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. It seemed llike kind of an underwhelming article about osteopathic medicine to me -:confused: ?
     
  4. Dustbunny

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    I thought the article was rather well-written and informative, personally. Written geared towards anyone in or interested in medical school. Good enough.
     
  5. DrVanNostran

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    I thought the article was pretty good.
     
  6. prionsRbad

    prionsRbad Mooooo
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    I think it was a pretty fair assessment. He wasn't bashing DO's or anything.

    I like Panda Bear :love:
     
  7. prionsRbad

    prionsRbad Mooooo
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    Hey DrVanNostran,

    I just took a look at your MD applicant profile. I think your school list is excellent. I'm applying to a lot of the same schools, but more DO (my GPA is waaaay lower than yours). You should be golden this year!

    Good luck :luck: :D
     
  8. JayneCobb

    JayneCobb big damn hero....
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    :laugh:
     
  9. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Dr. Panda replies to one of his messages saying it is impossible for DOs to practice in the UK and Australia. This is false.
     
  10. DrVanNostran

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    Thanks, I need the luck! good luck to you also! Maybe we will run into each other on the interview trail :luck:
     
  11. DrVanNostran

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    Agreed. From the Internatial DO Practice rights sticky:

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627

    UK-full scope of practice
    Australia-Varies

    Does anyone know if India/Pakistan have given Osteopaths a full right to practice yet? Thats where I want to a majority of my volunteer work.
     
  12. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Volunteer work does not need country licensure, both MD and DO
     
  13. DrVanNostran

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    Oh wow, I never knew that. Thanks for the heads up:love:
     
  14. Animus

    Animus I won't deny it...
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    Not sure what you are talking about Dragon - examples? I found it overall to be a good essay, he did not look down at DO's at all and admittedly OMT is not everything it was considered to be when it first was developed.
     
  15. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    I say “still taught” because there is little or no good evidence that manipulation does anything other than make the patient feel subjectively better.
    :sleep:
     
  16. TzDoc

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    Please elaborate... I would assume that you would need licensure in the country in which you are practicing medicine, voluteering or not.
     
  17. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    Disadvantages: "Also the COMLEX is reputed to be more difficult than the USMLE"

    That's because many COMLEX qs are so poorly written you have to figure out what is being asked first.
     
  18. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Volunteer medicine falls under international humanitarian help according to the Haye agreement. As long as you are a legitimate health care provider countries accept you on a "volunteer" basis.
     
  19. 8744

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    I like DOs, there is no practical difference between DOs and MDs when it come to practicing medicine, and I believe that OMM is effective for some musckuloskeletal complaints but not for the scope of conditions touted by some of it's most ardent supporters...and if you ask a lot of DOs they will tell you the same thing.
     
  20. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    I agree
     
  21. HarveyCushing

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    If the patient is happy and no longer in pain/discomfort, doesn't that count as being effect even if there is no "scientific research" to support it? Just curious, specifically what do you have issue with?
     
  22. spicedmanna

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    Well, I am actually in agreement with you. To me, as long as there is benefit, even if it is only "psychosomatic" in nature, it's something. There are so many factors we can't readily account for, even in this day and age of evidence-based medicine. We are only just beginning to scratch the surface in terms of understanding how the mind, the immune system, pain, and hormones might interconnect, etc. We have a long way to go. However, the results are what count. I think as long as we don't pass off stuff as legitimate research when it is in fact only anecdotal, I don't have any issue with it. I am in favor of doing and using whatever I can in the service of my future patients. I won't lie about it, though, that's all. I think the so-called "placebo effect" is laughed off too often. What you can't quantify isn't necessarily useless in that regard.
     
  23. HarveyCushing

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    :thumbup: I will admit that DO's don't have all the answers, however OMM seems to be useful since many practices have waits of up to 8 months.
     
  24. Taus

    Taus .
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    I agree w/ that 100%.....however its unfortunate that "the other stuff" gets lumped in w/ the musculoskeletal treatments and is sometimes what people use to judge an entire profession.....and also that those in charge and a very vocal minority tend to perpetuate that problem.

    Case in point: many of your blog readers will take what that one guy is saying about treating HTN and playing w/ the sympathetics, etc to be the voice and opinion of the entire profession when in reality its probably <1%
     
  25. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    I think the MSK stuff is fun and it feels good when properly done, even beneficial for patients with certain somatic dysfunctions. We even have an MD here who teaches OMM and he is real good at it, better than some of the DOs who teach it. I really like him because he brings a certain balance over from the allopaths side of the house in explaining how allopaths would attempt to fix a somatic dysfunction (usually only meds). I enjoy OMM because of him, and I like to have an extra tool in the bag to work with on pts.

    I've heard claims of OMM healing CHF, MIs, even mental ******ation and all kinds of crazy crap. That's where I draw the line, and that's what hurts the credibility of the DO name and the musculoskeletal stuff we do.

    So yes, Panda Bears article was very fair and balanced. There was no slander in it.
     
  26. HarveyCushing

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    I completely agree with you on this. However it seems that there are some things that lie more in the gray area.
     
  27. Taus

    Taus .
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    wow...all this agreeing in a post dealing w/ OMM.....weird....
     
  28. DragonWell

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    What I meant by my comment was that although the article is well-written and has some good, albeit basic info, it is about as controversial as a wikipedia entry. The title "Other Medical Careers Part One: The Most Controversial Article Ever Which Will Cause A Flood of Irate Comments and In Which I Tread Carefully But Obviously Not Carefully Enough" led me to expect something a bit edgier.

    Also I didn't get the FOX news comment - I'm still not sure if OP was being serious or sarcastic. Fair, balanced and Fox news are not three things I normally hear people people put together in a serious sentence.
     
  29. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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    Good call on the Fox News bit. I was using it more as a saying; not as an endorsement. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic in my tone--just curious how Panda's post would be interpreted by others.

    I enjoy Panda's writing style and, obviously, have an interest in this particular subject. I thought the post was well written, especially given that he's not a DO and his admitted indifference to OMT.
     
  30. DragonWell

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    Ahh, gotcha.
     
  31. Animus

    Animus I won't deny it...
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    Ahh ok I read your response wrong the first time
     
  32. Dr JPH

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    What about for decreasing the incidence of post-operative ileus or atelectasis?

    What about for improving FEV1 values for COPD patients?

    What about increasing circulating basophil levels with lymphatic techniques?


    Although I agree the musculoskeletal world has the greatest area of need for OMT but its uses do indeed span further...and Im not talking about wacky cranial either.
     
  33. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    Your an OMM fellow who called cranial wacky?

    Blasphemous!

    To the stocks:scared:
     
  34. spicedmanna

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    That's a good question, Tired. It deserves a good answer, which I am not sure I am capable of giving. I'll take a stab at it, nevertheless.

    I have a background in somatic psychology: mind-body integration therapy, if you will. I've actually performed interventions on clients, with their permission, that didn't have any clear biological mechanisms of action, like most drug therapies do, but were more psychosomatic in nature. I am quite straightfoward with my clients because I think part of the therapeutic relationship is to be as authentic and present as is reasonable. I prefer to have this kind of relationship with my patients. I think it helps my clients see me as their ally, which I think is absolutely critical to success in the long term, influential even to the efficacy of the treatment itself.

    I am, of course, diplomatically honest when I think it'll benefit my patient. It isn't necessary to explain everything to the nth degree; I would basically speak to their understanding. I would share the indications of the OMT treatment, cite my experience of it, and any complications that could result. I think I would try to stick with the unarguable when discussing the benefits of OMM with my patient ("it seems to relieve pain"). I would stick with my experience of the treatment and the results that I've seen when performing it. If they pressed further about it and asked for evidence of benefit, I'd be honest about the anecdotal nature of my experience and cite the possible psychosomatic connection. I would stress that even psychosomatic phenomenon are not well understood and there is much rising research on the interconnection between brain and hormones. OMT, in addition to actual evidence-based results, can also be seen as a somatic interface between those two. Pain and it's relief are complex phenomenon and there is a lot of interconnection with other mechanisms of the body. The power of endorphins, oxytocin, seratonin, other neurotransmitters, and a host of other physiological elements can be engaged through OMM/OMT and even by simple touch itself to relieve pain and encourage a sense of wellbeing.

    Basically, I don't think it would hurt to discuss it. Even if the patient is aware that the benefits might only be psychosomatic in nature, their body is still open to accepting the benefits, because the mind gets the mind candy it needs and is satisfied, therefore letting go, and the power of the touch itself, the therapeutic connection between doctor and patient, the intent of the therapist, and the openness of the patient to the treatment, in my experience, will still evoke benefit.

    I hope that is a start to an answer to the good question you asked. I'm going to think about it some more.
     
  35. Dr JPH

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    :laugh:

    Yeah...I get the same reaction from most of my OMM department and colleagues in the OMM world.

    Needless to say I am not well liked among the "cranialites" as I have dubbed them. And I prefer not to treat "Craniopaths" (another one of my words).

    Luckily my Department Chair supports me and doesnt allow me to be ostracized in the OMM community for my lack of belief and faith in cranial.

    I am a very structurally oriented person when it comes to OMT. If you cannot show me the anatomy, physiology and understand the biochemical/biomechanical workings then Im not going to even attempt to treat a patient with that technique. Basically if YOU dont understand what is happening and YOU are the one "treating" the patient...well, in my opinion that borders on malpractice and fraud.

    I dont like to hear "I dont know how or why it works but patients seem to get better so thats why I do it."

    That doesnt sit well with me and it shouldnt sit well with any physician.

    Now, the problem is that when people hear "OMM" they think of the musculoskeletal component but they also cannot get past lumping cranial in there as well. It tears at the fabric of what OMM really is.

    Its like talking about baseball. You can talk all you want about the great things associated with the game but sooner or later someone will say "steroids" and suddenly the credibility of the entire sport goes out the window.

    OMM was never meant as a mystical power or faith. It was developed as a pure musculoskeletal treatment modality and, in my humble OMM Fellow opinion, should remain as such.
     
  36. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    I have jumped out of enough planes and landed hard enough that I have all sorts of somatic dysfunctions from top to bottom. I am a believer in OMM somatic tx and am a benefactor. Though we have skimmed some of these other benefits in class it certainly hasn't been a strong teaching point, and admittedly, I am not as familiar with all the studies and benefits of OMM, such as what you offered.

    It's just when we started on cranial, and there are some true fanatics of it here, and the lights were turned down and they started talking softly in the lab, well I sat there for over half an hour with someones head in my hands and nothing, absolutely nothing happened. At the end most of us were like, what? And the few were just as happy as could be. More power to em but I think OMM has much to offer medicine and that type of stuff hurts our credibility I think, more than it helps.
     
  37. 8744

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    Giving placebos is unethical. If CAM is just a placebo, how is it different than a sugar pill? Likewise, if we're going to be placebo docs, why not just hire actors who look and sound like doctors to pass out impressive looking pills?
     
  38. spicedmanna

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    I'm not a doctor, so I can't refute your comment. I'm just seeking to understand you. So are you saying that it is unethical to suggest to a patient that he or she might benefit from going to a yoga class and practice relaxing breathing and stress-relieving movements while in that class? What's the ethical difference between assisting the patient in those movements and breathing patterns that could have these benefits (on top of any true, evidence-based MSK benefits) and inviting them to do it to themselves?
     
  39. DragonWell

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    It's funny to me that when people think something doesn't work, they label it "CAM", but as soon as there is proof something works, it gets moved out of the CAM collumn and relabeled. Thus, herbal medicine becomes "pharmacognosy" and working with someone's diet becomes "clinical nutrition". Now that there is some evidence that stress reduction can speed wound healing and reduce hospital stays, "mind-body" medicine is being repackaged as "visualization and stress reduction therapy".

    Poor CAM, they just can't win - if it doesn't work everybody says I told you so, and if it works, everybody says that's not part of CAM! :laugh:
     
  40. Pansit

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    giving someone a sugar pill an saying it will cure their cancer is unethical and probably illegal (because we know it will never work)...but giving someone an acceptable treatment that has worked on numerous patients before is different, and if a treatment like OMM is not working on a patient then the DO has that great option of using conventional medicine (drugs, surgery)...thats what makes an osteopathic physician different from an allopathic physician in my opinion. Omm cant cure everything, but it definitely can in some cases. Unless it's a life and death situation, is it not a benefit to the patient to be administered more "natural" treatments first (ie. OMM in proper conditions) before pushing drugs and pills...?
     
  41. DropkickMurphy

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    As with nearly everything else that you say, I agree 110%.
     
  42. acrunchyfrog

    acrunchyfrog In memory of Riley
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    /Looking forward to the creation of a reimbursement code for this..../
     
  43. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    Now I see why I like your comments. Howdy, zen shiatsu therapist and shaman here :D
     
  44. Toohotinvegas33

    Toohotinvegas33 Currently Glasgow 3
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    Well, currently in the Las Vegas area the reimbursemnet algorithm is set to were the reimbursement is inversely proportional to age of provided, averaging about 40 bucks.
     
  45. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    I had wanted to jump all my life so at about 25 took my first one with what I think was an old ARMY T-10. Had a bad landing on the runway and broke my coccyx. That was real fun. For a minute, I thought I was a quad!

    I've had cranial-sacral by experts and got nothing from it...although my wife did.
     
  46. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    What happens is when enough "scientific" studies "prove" it, the physicians claim to have invented it.
     
  47. Pansit

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    well, when you call your treatment "alternative medicine" and that treatment becomes part of "Medicine", it is no longer alternative isn't it...so it no longer applies so it gets moved...what wrong with that?
     
  48. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    "Safety and efficacy"...you are aware that medicine is what...the third leading cause of death.

    Now we live longer...lying in the nursing home crapping in our diapers...
     
  49. DragonWell

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    That's why Integrative Medicine is a better term.
     
  50. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    Please give the ABX...I would.
     
  51. zenman

    zenman Senior Member
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    Maybe spicedmanna can help here. I think there's something just really wrong with this comment. Does "subjectively better" lead to "objectively better?"
     

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