Does rank of undergrad not matter at all?

[scaredmedstudent]

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Please don't kill me, as I know this topic is talked about to death, but I find it irritating that my friend who attends a local, "easy" college and is getting a 4.0 without much work has a greater chance of getting into medical school than I do, even though I attend a top 30 university and working my a** off for B's. And it's not that the level of work is the same and he just understand it better; I've helped him study and the material is often simplified and the exams pretty much reflect exactly what the prof teaches in lecture. All the science classes are curved, unlike mine.

Now that I'm reading this, I realize I sound really pretentious and snooty, though that is not my intention at all. I just feel I screwed myself over for choosing this university over the local one where I could get a 4.0 without as much stress, tears, and breakdowns I experience here to end up with a B.

****Using my brother's account by the way! My brother attended the university I am for undergrad but did better than I'm doing right now...

 

[Turkishking]

You should make your own account. The AAMC views the selectivity of your undergrad as minimal importance.

 

[RunawayGrape]

If your friend is doing everything else right, he probably has a better shot than you. However, since you're at a bigger institution, there are probably more resources available; there are a wider range of on-campus ECs, you probably have more opportunities to connect with professors and do research, etc. And the best private schools do take UG prestige into account, but it's used to holistically provide some context to your application, not to somehow "curve" your GPA. Besides, people who are smart enough to get into a competitive UG are smart enough to figure out how to get into med school, if they put in the work. Nothing was taken away from you by going to a "top-30." If anything, more doors were opened, but you had to take the right steps to walk through them.

In any case, people who go to your school have obviously succeeded in the past. Use your resources. Ask your brother for advice. You're much better off figuring out why you're not doing as well as you would like rather than complaining about how your friend has easier classes than you do.

 

[Jalby]

So to simplify your question, does a person at an unranked school with a 4.0 have a better chance of getting into a medical school than a person at a top 30-40 school with a 3.3 GPA??? Here is the simple answer.

Yes.

Discussion:
The main thing that schools are judged on is MCAT and GPA. Having someone with a great GPA helps their overall average. So he automatically will get the interview and probably get accepted unless there is something wrong with him. I took some of the hardest classes at UCLA and got a bunch of AP credit. I did it totally wrong. I shouldn't have accepted any of the AP credit, took the easiest courses and got the easiest A's. Nobody is going to look at your transcript and say because this person majored in Biochemistry and this one in Physiology, Biochem is harder so he gets a 0.2 GPA bonus.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

This is why MCAT is the equalizer. A lot of people would argue that an excellent MCAT with a mediocre GPA is much better than the other way around.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Rank matters, but not at that degree of GPA split. My experience is that killing it at a top ranked school will open more doors than killing it at a local U. But in both cases, expectation is you have to do well.

It sucks, but is the system we've got.

People used to call my ug "The Junkyard" because it wrecked so many premed dreams lol. Best of luck.

 

[kb1900]

You have to do well whether you go to a top school (please don't say top 30-40 ever again) or a bottom of the barrel school.

One adcom I met while interviewing said that they look at 10-15 applications total out of 8k with a <3.6 gpa. Most of my fellow interviewees at this school were from Harvard, Columbia etc.

 

[piii]

I bet your friend would keep making As if he attended your school and you'd still be making Bs.

 

[JustAPhD]

This is the old "grass is always greener on the other side" argument, but instead of greener grass it's easier courses. The fact is that in general GPA rules, regardless of where you did your schooling. Not sure what else to tell you. Either transfer or get better grades.

 

[efle]

^ Fun fact, in prior years that survey revealed that selectivity of undergraduate is highly important to private medical schools and not important to public schools.

What I've seen and read has lead me to the belief that the more selective a med school is, the more they tend to care about not only interviewing top GPAs, but top GPAs from top undergrads.

The significantly higher GPA is always better than the higher ranked university name though.

To anyone saying just work harder then you can get straight A's anywhere with effort - that's really not always how it works.

 

[Lawpy]

This is the old "grass is always greener on the other side" argument, but instead of greener grass it's easier courses. The fact is that in general GPA rules, regardless of where you did your schooling. Not sure what else to tell you. Either transfer or get better grades.

^ Fun fact, in prior years that survey revealed that selectivity of undergraduate is highly important to private medical schools and not important to public schools.

What I've seen and read has lead me to the belief that the more selective a med school is, the more they tend to care about not only interviewing top GPAs, but top GPAs from top undergrads.

The significantly higher GPA is always better than the higher ranked university name though.

To anyone saying just work harder then you can get straight A's anywhere with effort - that's really not always how it works.

to reiterate what @elfe and @JustAPhD have said about selectivity and to summarize the chart see my statement below

Applicants assume far more importance to the name recognition of the UG institution than medical school data suggests (see chart above)

In a 2013 AAMC survey* with 127 medical admissions offices responding found that while uGPA (total science/math) and MCAT (total score) were top factors in the "highest importance ratings," immediately following them : 1) the upward or downward grade trend; 2) uGPA (cumulative total); 3) performance in a postbaccalaureate program (which likely includes SMP), and; 4) selectivity of undergraduate institution (for the private medical college only. Public college essentially have state residency replacing this factor). Of "medium importance" are on schedule to meet pre-medical coursework, uGPA (cumulative nonscience/math).

*https://www.aamc.org/download/434596/data/usingmcatdata2016.pdf
see page 3 (pdf page 7) Table 1. Mean Importance Ratings of Academic, Experiential, and Demographic Application Data Used by Admissions Committees for Making Decisions about Which Applicants to Receive an Interview Invitation and Offer Acceptance (N=127)

which AAMC survey is being used as data to make advice and recommendations? is it the 2013 survey or 2015 survey? is one more accurate than the other?

 

[efle]

which AAMC survey is being used as data to make advice and recommendations? is it the 2013 survey or 2015 survey? is one more accurate than the other?

I prefer the 2013 on this topic since it shows the difference for this topic. For something else like a brand new visitor to the forums looking for what ECs to go for, I'd probably link the most recent

 

[efle]

The 2015 survey has undergraduate selectivity in the lowest importance category for both public and private schools where as the 2013 found only private schools classifying in the highest importance category. My impression that there was a bit of an uproar about this with the private schools appearing overtly elitist from the 2013 survey. So like in most social surveys, the attitude and the behavior may be different and the private schools may have consciously toned down this answer but the behavior may still be higher than indicated. So, I tend to agree with @elfe on this, it will carry a little weight, but a magnitude less in importance than GPA and MCAT. If a medical school calculates an overall academic metric with say a 50 point total, it may add a point or 2 to that total

Interesting point, I had assumed the values had just narrowly missed significance this time around (like maybe p at .04 before and .06 now). Maybe it really was more about downplaying the elite inbreeding !

 

[Lucca]

Personally, I think that students who go to reasonably good schools these days (state flagships, mid-tier private, some city systems, some state satellite schools) are not that different in terms of academic ability than their peers at the top UGs. The average student at WashU is probably better than your average student at TAMU, but the best students at TAMU would have probably still been good students at WashU. There are also excellent schools that are not HYPSM that are virtually identical in student quality, imo, with the name brand elite. Berkeley and UCLA students for example. As far as academic material is concerned, basically everyone in the sciences here uses MIT OCW to supplement their study, esp. for physics/math/chemistry courses and I would say their material is not more advanced than what we see at my public school. The biggest difference, I would say, is that our intro class exams are usually multiple choice with a small number of free response and theirs tend to be all free response, which is typically harder but after the freshman courses the material is virtually identical (although, MIT does have more course offerings in math and physics than we do for obvious reasons).

That being said, everything others have said is true: GPA > UG Rank but at the tippity top, being from a top UG definitely helps. The evidence for that is not conclusive, but everything I have seen has pointed to that conclusion.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

No one forced you to attend a T30

 

[Lucca]

I agree, but the issue for most applicants is the perception that it is as important, if not more so, than GPA. For example there is another thread going on right now where a Columbia UG is asking (partly due to parental pressure) if transfer to Harvard would improve medical school chances. A few years ago, there was someone at a reasonably good SUNY campus (mid-tier) doing very well (3.8+) mostly on scholarship, seriously considering transfer to Cornell for $50K a year and self-admittedly would achieve a 3.5 GPA. He was convinced that Cornell name would more than make up for downgrade in GPA. It is stories like these that I try to guide applicants to a more realistic path.

for applicants I don't think the discussion matters at all. It's less important than other things and transferring to improve your chances of getting into HMS is stupid (as a sole reason). The whole getting into college thing is basically over and done with by junior year of high school and in all honesty most students don't care enough to be gaming the system by then, so it's not like it's seriously under anyone's control. Not to mention the two biggest factors are 1) going to an affluent school or 2) buying every advantage money can afford.

That being said, we would be dishonest if we didn't say that prestigious medical schools are full of people from prestigious undergrads

 

[Chimichica]

Do you care as a patient what rank your physician is? Not meant to be rude. It's easy to think with the super competitive atmosphere of the education system that it matters, but it hardly ever does. I got a top 10% of my HS no one cared. Lol. Also when I aced my boards for my program no one who hired me cared about that either. Because it's all about pass/fail. You are either qualified to hold a position or arent. ESPECIALLY because it's all about how great a prof you have vs the institution. You can have a bend over backwards prof at a podunk school vs a prof from Harvard who's more concerned with tenure and publications than the quality of education the student is receiving. It's the educator who helps the most not the institution

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[flapjack3d]

Didn't read earlier posts, but yes, of course it matters, especially to private schools. I went to a state school in the Midwest and have still gotten some interviews at a few top places, but mostly silence. Also have lm >80, good personal statement, and years of research and volunteering. But that I'm complaining. I wouldn't have gotten good grades at a top undergrad.

 

[aldol16]

You should make your own account. The AAMC views the selectivity of your undergrad as minimal importance.

AAMC views don't matter. It's how individual medical schools - specifically the ones that one is looking to apply to - see it that matters. On the aggregate, undergraduate prestige doesn't matter that much. But once you start looking at top 10-20 schools, they start caring more about pedigree. Sure, it's not going to save your ass if you got a 3.3 from Harvard and you're competing against someone who got a 3.9 from a large state school. But if you're looking at someone with a 3.9 from Harvard and a 3.9 from a large state school, the Harvard kid is probably going to get an edge for pedigree. Now, odds are that the Harvard kid will also be more interesting since not everything is always the same between two applicants but it's also possible that the state school kid has a more interesting narrative and gets admitted. In the end, undergraduate prestige is taken into account by the top private med schools in some way.

This is why MCAT is the equalizer. A lot of people would argue that an excellent MCAT with a mediocre GPA is much better than the other way around.

Yeah, that's why there are many pre-meds with 4.0s and mediocre MCAT scores who don't get in while there are many with 3.5+s and high MCAT scores who get in. 4.0s are a dime a dozen.

^ Fun fact, in prior years that survey revealed that selectivity of undergraduate is highly important to private medical schools and not important to public schools.

What I've seen and read has lead me to the belief that the more selective a med school is, the more they tend to care about not only interviewing top GPAs, but top GPAs from top undergrads.

The significantly higher GPA is always better than the higher ranked university name though.

To anyone saying just work harder then you can get straight A's anywhere with effort - that's really not always how it works.

I think it's hard for people to accept that 1) after a certain point, stats don't really matter and 2) it's not exactly a meritocracy where stats are king. It's not fair that someone with a 4.0 and 520 MCAT at a large state school may be passed over for someone with similar stats at a top private school but that's just how the world works. At least in the realm of private schools.

 

[bananafish94]

Medical schools care about a lot of variables, and I think you have to ask yourself what these things actually mean. GPA, MCAT, volunteering, research, etc...these all demonstrate something about your commitment to medicine, your academic ability, your ability to perform well on standardized tests...things that medical schools care about.

If you go to a super selective college, assuming it's not because of well-connected family or something like that, it basically says that you did really well in high school (at least in my own assessment, correct me if I'm wrong). That's wonderful and a notable accomplishment, but probably not something that schools would care that much about, if at all. For that reason, I don't think the mere case of going to a selective school should have very much weight. Going to a selective school and doing extraordinarily well, on the other hand, would probably jump off the page a little bit more than somebody who does the same thing at a lesser known school.

In the end, I don't think it's something to think about too much because it is just simply out of your control. You go to the college that's best for you when you graduate from high school, and you do the best job you possibly can wherever you end up. That's all you can really hope for.

 

[efle]

Medical schools care about a lot of variables, and I think you have to ask yourself what these things actually mean. GPA, MCAT, volunteering, research, etc...these all demonstrate something about your commitment to medicine, your academic ability, your ability to perform well on standardized tests...things that medical schools care about.

If you go to a super selective college, assuming it's not because of well-connected family or something like that, it basically says that you did really well in high school (at least in my own assessment, correct me if I'm wrong). That's wonderful and a notable accomplishment, but probably not something that schools would care that much about, if at all. For that reason, I don't think the mere case of going to a selective school should have very much weight. Going to a selective school and doing extraordinarily well, on the other hand, would probably jump off the page a little bit more than somebody who does the same thing at a lesser known school.

In the end, I don't think it's something to think about too much because it is just simply out of your control. You go to the college that's best for you when you graduate from high school, and you do the best job you possibly can wherever you end up. That's all you can really hope for.

This has been my interpretation too. It's not that you aced high school and went to Fancy Ivy U that matters, it's that you were towards the top of the class even in that environment that is impressive.

 

[doctorbob23]

Rank matters nothing. No one puts a lot of weight where u went to undergrad. If at all

 

[Goro]

Every now and then we interview a candidate like you who gets a borderline score from the interviewers, and the Adcom discusses their fate. Invariably, one of my colleagues will say "but he got a 3.3 from Big Name School. That has to count for something."

We ponder this for a second or two, and then ignore it.

You made your bed, now lie in it.

Please don't kill me, as I know this topic is talked about to death, but I find it irritating that my friend who attends a local, "easy" college and is getting a 4.0 without much work has a greater chance of getting into medical school than I do, even though I attend a top 30 university and working my a** off for B's. And it's not that the level of work is the same and he just understand it better; I've helped him study and the material is often simplified and the exams pretty much reflect exactly what the prof teaches in lecture. All the science classes are curved, unlike mine.

Now that I'm reading this, I realize I sound really pretentious and snooty, though that is not my intention at all. I just feel I screwed myself over for choosing this university over the local one where I could get a 4.0 without as much stress, tears, and breakdowns I experience here to end up with a B.

****Using my brother's account by the way! My brother attended the university I am for undergrad but did better than I'm doing right now...

 

[judb16]

I realize this is pre-med forums, but from the other side, it doesn't seem to matter at all. GPA from different schools seems to make a negligible difference in success in medical school (which is what I'm thinking Adcoms are thinking about when making this decision).

I have kids in my class from tiny liberal arts schools (1500 total students) that I've never even heard of, and we have students from Harvard, Cornell, MIT, and Yale etc.. The ones who study hard and work hard do well. Those who don't, don't. UG school doesn't really matter. I went to a large, competitive private school that is a top-5 feeder to medical schools and I think my GPA suffered for it (to be fair I didn't really study at all my first two years, but whatever). My UG classes were hard, and I think that prepared me well for medical school, but I'm getting similar grades to people who went to more "prestigious" schools and less prestigious schools who are working about equally hard as me.

The only reason I comment on this is because I was mad about it too when I was applying. Because it didn't seem "fair". Whatever that means.
At the end of the day I learned you can complain about it, or just do as well as you can, nail the MCAT and give the Adcoms as many reasons to accept you as possible. Just my two cents.

 

[TaroBubbleTea]

I think in general, school name does not matter much and GPA matters much more.

However, as others have pointed out, top med schools love students from similarly top undergrads. The top 20 med schools have their pick of high MCAT, high GPA applicants with the big name school to match. On the interview trail, you will likely find students from elite schools to be overrepresented.

tl, dr: top med schools care about the GPA and the school name, so depending on your personal goals going to a top undergrad makes sense