Does SCS Physical Therapists make Athletic Trainers Irrelevant?

[questionmark32]

I understand the roles of Athletic Trainers and Physical Therapists are similar in many ways. However, one thing that stands out in favor of Athletic Trainers is that they have the ability to treat athletes from the sidelines of games and practices and have the capabilities to treat acute injuries/conditions and deal with life-threatening emergency situations that the general Physical Therapist would have no idea about.

But then there is the Physical Therapist who is a Sports Certified Specialist.

From my understanding, a PT with an SCS designation can care for any athlete from the sideline. What I'm not sure about is if they can deal with emergency situations like an ATC can. And if not, what about those PTs who get a First Responder certification?

My question (mostly to ATCs in the know) is that can a 'Sports Physical Therapist' who has a First/Emergency Responder certification be a threat to the ATC profession? The NFL now wants every team to have a full-time PT with an SCS. This could start a trend with other professional leagues to mandate every time to have a PT on their payroll. This is outside of the ATCs who are also PTs in sports.

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[atstudent]

If PTs really want to be Athletic Trainers so bad, they really should consider becoming Athletic Trainers!

 

[greco13]

My question (mostly to ATCs in the know) is that can a 'Sports Physical Therapist' who has a First/Emergency Responder certification be a threat to the ATC profession?

I suppose they might be seen to be as qualified as a PT, ATC. With enough continuing ed. I would think a PT could hold a position where usually only a PT, ATC would be considered. Check this: "In order to attend a Sports Residency Program, the resident must possess one of the following before starting the program: an ATC, EMT, or have taken an Emergency Medical Response (EMR) Course" - APTA Directory of Sports Physical Therapy Residencies.

 

[questionmark32]

The only reason why I bring this up is because I was under the assumption that the NATA would be against PTs trying to get involved so intimately in sports. This could be seen as Physical Therapists trying to include everything that Athletic Trainers do, making ATCs almost irrelevant.

I'm not sure if every PT that wants to get their SCS has to do a residency. Maybe all they need to do is work in a sports setting and be involved with athletes in some way, I'm not sure.

 

[greco13]

Unless thousands of PT, SCS suddenly decide that they want to earn ~ 1/4 of what they currently do & take a sport med. job at their local high school I don't think ATs will become irrelevant.

 

[questionmark32]

Agreed. Maybe I should be more specific. When it comes to sports outside of high school, could ATCs become weeded out? While ATCs will always be around compared to the PT/SCS or the PT/ATC because salaries are less, this may not the the case when it comes to the more prestigious positions in sports like being the Head Athletic Trainer at for a Division 1 school or with a professional team. If the school or team had a choice between an ATC or a PT/SCS (assuming the pay was good enough for the PT to go in that direction), what would stop them from choosing the PT?

 

[atstudent]

If the school or team had a choice between an ATC or a PT/SCS (assuming the pay was good enough for the PT to go in that direction), what would stop them from choosing the PT?

Licensing.

 

[questionmark32]

If my licensing you mean that a PT can't be called a Head Athletic Trainer then I fully understand that. However, many Head ATs are PTs as well. With the NFL CBA the way it is when it comes to hiring PTs, many of them are looking for Head ATs who are PTs as well. While this doesn't put ATCs in a bad position, per se, it does show people that being an ATC may not be enough anymore if you're looking at one of the big time jobs in the industry (D1/Pro). At the high school level and D2/3 colleges, being an ATC may be enough because PT/ATCs won't take a (relatively) poor paying job.

I just feel that ATCs could get the short end of the stick when it comes to the 'good' jobs. Many people get into the profession so they one day can become the Head Athletic Trainer for a good program, school, or team. I've noticed more and more that those jobs are going to the PT/ATC. It's like saying that being an ATC (even with a CSCS and other credentials) alone is not enough.

 

[questionmark32]

.

 

[atstudent]

If my licensing you mean that a PT can't be called a Head Athletic Trainer then I fully understand that. However, many Head ATs are PTs as well. With the NFL CBA the way it is when it comes to hiring PTs, many of them are looking for Head ATs who are PTs as well.

That's different than what you said before. They'd still be hiring an AT! But PT alone would not likely fly. Those are two different things. A PT/ATC is not necessarily the same as a PT SCS.

 

[questionmark32]

Yes they still would be hiring an AT if the only reason was because of the title of 'Athletic Trainer'. If 'Physical Therapist' was enough for teams to hire someone, I have a hard time believing that ATCs would get jobs over a PT/SCS. I'm trying to find out what the difference is between a ATC and a PT/SCS other than 'licensing'.

ATCs should be able to get the big time jobs without having any other credential since it is specifically their field. Many ATCs become PTs as well because it'll be easier to get higher positions.

Do you agree, as an ATC yourself, that you may have a harder time getting a well paying position outside of private high schools and D2/3 colleges? If not, please explain why.


EDIT: and what I mean by well paying positions, I'm talking about D1/pro head AT positions. It seems like the old-school ATCs in these positions are being replaced by ATs who have more than just their base credential.

 

[goyo1010]

This is from one of my professors, Alexis Ortiz, PT, PhD, SCS, CSCS. This is what he said, as I had a question about this, also.

"You are right. The PT with SCS credentials can cover sports on the field like an ATC. That is why if you look at the requirements for sitting to take the exam an emergency provider course certification is needed first. The most common pattern of practice is that most PTs work in the clinic setting rehabbing sport related injuries. However, we can work in the field (that's the clinical job I do). Be aware the sideline work is specifically allowed by the SCS and not a PT without the credentials. That is the whole idea and one of the main reason the credential was created. Furthermore, in the line of command the PT SCS will be above the ATC and underneath the team physician."

 

[greco13]

Furthermore, in the line of command the PT SCS will be above the ATC and underneath the team physician."

This would depend on things like official titles, experience, organizational culture and the individuals' history with the institution. Also keep in mind that most ATs working in college or pro. settings have at least a master's degree.

 

[atstudent]

This is from one of my professors, Alexis Ortiz, PT, PhD, SCS, CSCS. This is what he said, as I had a question about this, also.

"... Be aware the sideline work is specifically allowed by the SCS and not a PT without the credentials. That is the whole idea and one of the main reason the credential was created. Furthermore, in the line of command the PT SCS will be above the ATC and underneath the team physician."

I'd like to see something official allowing that... Unless the PT is also a certified athletic trainer, I have my doubts of qualification and licensure...

 

[ATwantingtobePT]

As someone already stated certified ATs at the college level have to have at least a masters degree in something. Many are GAs while getting that masters so they gain experience while getting an education at that school. A ton of factors go into the the hiring process beyond just education level. I think you are wrong about the fact that a PT SCS would get the big job over a certified AT, every Athletic training class is centered around athletic injuries unlike physical therapy classes. Maybe a PT/ATC would get the job over just a certified AT but like I said so many other factors go into hiring someone than just their education level.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I'd like to see something official allowing that... Unless the PT is also a certified athletic trainer, I have my doubts of qualification and licensure...

I agree that an ATC is optimal whether PT, ATC or not. But a PT is better than nothing without a doubt, and a PT, SCS is just a step below a ATC "on the field" as far as I'm concerned especially regarding emergency procedures. A PT, ATC, SCS would be a nice combo. Evaluation of non emergent injuries "on the field" I would go with a PT, SCS and select PT's. ATC's are better trained in immediately acute injuries as it pertaines to athletes though IMO. That's not to say that a PT has no business on the field in any circumstance unless they're a ATC as you imply.

 

[toedragger]

Nope, not a chance. Here are a few reasons why:

It has been mentioned that the NFL in their latest CBA now requires a PT on their medical staff. While this is true, in the first year the measure was put into place, only 2 PTs were hired by teams due to most of them already having an AT/PT on staff. Those two PTs btw were both ATCs. The source of this information was a story/study in NATA's journal. Thus, teams and the league still see ATCs as the gold standard in Athlete care.

It was also proposed that other sports leagues (NHL, MLB, and NBA) may also make this change. That however is untrue, as in the last two years both the NBA and NHL both have agreed to a new CBA with their commissioners and boards of governors. Neither has the phrase "Physical Therapist" in them. The NHL's deal last for at least 8 more years.

All four of the Major Sports Leagues have very strong AT societies (PBATS, PFATS, and PHATS are great to google ), not to mention the NATA is very strong. I have spent two season interning in pro sports. What is not being well stated is the necessary experience that has to be gained to work in pro sports. In pro sports, there is pressure unlike any other. Teams are truly desperate to win. Head ATC jobs are only given after YEARS of working at assistant level positions which are only given after YEARS of working, networking, and learning in internship positions. PT's, even with SCS lack this experience. Almost all head ATs are older people because they have had to work for years to get where they are!

ATS also have sport specific clinical experience built into their education. For example: Student A has an Ex sci degree, DPT, and a SCS. Student B has an ATC degree, DPT. While student A might sound more appealing to an outsider, what you are not considering is student B, even if he or she did not intern outside of school at all still has at least 6 clinical rotations in Athletics as part of their education. This is not to mention that most ATS work their asses off to gain internships and further their education.

ATC's are going to an entry level master's degree in the near future. This will further solidify the profession as being on par with the PTs. While some teams hire PTs as rehab coordinators, it would be absolutely shocking for a team to position one in a head or assistant position, not to mention adamantly fought by NATA. They are called Head Athletic Trainers and Assistant Athletic Trainers for a reason!

There is a reason that a PT with a SCS still is not employed in a Head or an Assistant position, because ATCs are much more experienced, and therefore better at working for sports teams.

 

[truthseeker]

Nailed it!

 

[questionmark32]

Great explanation! I really felt that PTs could get their hands in sports more. Your post explained a lot. However, I still believe that being a PT/ATC is a huge advantage in sports, and while all sports will be looking for ATCs first and foremost, an ATC with the experienced as you described coupled with being a PT will get the job over just the ATC with experience.

But I do feel better about your post.

 

[atstudent]

Great explanation! I really felt that PTs could get their hands in sports more. Your post explained a lot. However, I still believe that being a PT/ATC is a huge advantage in sports, and while all sports will be looking for ATCs first and foremost, an ATC with the experienced as you described coupled with being a PT will get the job over just the ATC with experience.

But I do feel better about your post.

Well sure they will. A lot more broadened rehab education involved. Just like taking that same PT/AT into a clinic is going to be better than the straight PT. It's additional experiences and additional education..

 

[toedragger]

Great explanation! I really felt that PTs could get their hands in sports more. Your post explained a lot. However, I still believe that being a PT/ATC is a huge advantage in sports, and while all sports will be looking for ATCs first and foremost, an ATC with the experienced as you described coupled with being a PT will get the job over just the ATC with experience.

But I do feel better about your post.

I some what agree. From what I have gathered the biggest factor to getting head positions is experience. Bottom line it is really about who you know at that point. The problem for AT/PTs can be they almost price themselves out of an assistant position. For instance, lets say a PT comes out of school, 80K in debt. They could choose to work in a clinic for 40 hours a week at 65K a year, make even more doing PRN, or they could work a lot more hours on a lot more days and maybe make 50K and that is if they are some how lucky enough to have gotten a connection to an assistant job. Most would go for the 1st option. I asked a D-1 football head AT about this last week, as I am an ATS going to PT school next year and he said that if I did go into the clinic after school, it is hard to get an assistant job based on that experience and also, most people stay in the clinic for all of the benefits it brings. If an AT/PT did want to work in sports, the best job to go after would be one exclusively for those credentials, like a rehab coordinator. However those positions typically pay less than the clinic still, and work more hours. You really have to love that life style. Getting back to your reply, while if all is set aside and the only difference between two candidates is one is an AT and one is an AT/PT, and they have the same experiences, connections, personality for the job and interviewing skills, then yes, AT/PT is going to get the job. However, because of what I have explained above, AT/PT can rarely match the experience in sports of a straight AT. This is especially true in baseball, where most ATs that make it to the majors start in A or AA (if they are lucky) making 20-30K a year. Surely someone with a PT would never take that job. There isn't a general rule when it comes to AT,PT, PES,CES, CSCS, it is all what you have done in the field and who you know that matters the most. Typically ATs have the easiest path to experience and connections.

 

[toedragger]

Furthermore, in the line of command the PT SCS will be above the ATC and underneath the team physician."This would depend on things like official titles, experience, organizational culture and the individuals' history with the institution. Also keep in mind that most ATs working in college or pro. settings have at least a master's degree.

Completely agree about the experience factor. Also no where in AT's practice act does it say anything about working under PTs in a chain of command. I am not that familiar with PT's practice act, does it have any clause about directing ATs specifically? If you could I would question your professor where he or she got this information. In both organizations I have been in the PT/Rehabilitation Coordinator definitely takes direction from the Head Athletic Trainer and actually also the Assistant Athletic Trainer.

 

[atstudent]

Read this post. They think that the PT and team physician should be "equals" with everyone else "underneath them."

http://ptthinktank.com/2012/12/15/n...cal-therapist-in-athlete-management-sportspt/

 

[Jarrodmac10]

Read this post. They think that the PT and team physician should be "equals" with everyone else "underneath them."

http://ptthinktank.com/2012/12/15/n...cal-therapist-in-athlete-management-sportspt/

I actually spoke with Dr. Stanley Herring (google him if you don't know who he is) about this exact subject subsequent to his presentation regarding concussions last week. He agrees that PTs and MDs should be the ones overseeing the entire rehab process and training of the athletes. I don't think he would agree that PTs "own" musculoskeletal problems in the clinic. But he and myself believe PTs are the primary clinicians responsible for evaluating an orthopedic related injury, along with the MD on staff... this should be a no brainier. Instead of slamming each other on a forum maybe everyone should reach out to their NFL, MLB, ect... Team PT or MD and discuss your opinions and see exactly how things are ran in the locker room.

 

[questionmark32]

I have talked to a Head AT in professional sports. He is a PT as well and overseas everything, but if he weren't he would be doing the same thing. I personally feel that ATCs who are also PTs will only go for Head AT positions in pro sports. I think you would rarely see a ATC/PT being an Assistant AT under a ATC unless that ATC has been there a ton of years. Even so, I think a change would happen sooner or later where that ATC/PT would get the Head Athletic Trainer position as soon as experience isn't a factor anymore.

From my understanding, many PTs try to become Directors of Rehabilitation at D1 Schools. Most of them just need experience with athletes and have their SCS. This would mean that they are in control of everything that goes on inside the Athletic Training room, including the staff.

Do I think they would be on the same level as an MD in terms of overseeing the whole rehab process? No, but I do feel that MDs would prefer a PT to run the show while the ATC works with each athlete individually, then report back to the PT.

 

[goyo1010]

You are either crazy or misinformed. Someone with a PT SCS would NEVER "run the show" in an athletic training room. Why? THEY ARE NOT AN ATHLETIC TRAINER. This entire post and it's replies are beyond ridiculous. ATCs are not PTAs, they are not trained to work "under" a physical therapist. and a physical therapist could in no way do an AT's job out of physical therapy school. you need to get off your high horse and come back to reality. without being trained as an AT, a PT has ZERO business on a sideline. they are not trained in acute care and won't have 30+ minutes to do an evaluation like it is in the clinic. do some research.and know where your strengths and weaknesses lie when compared to the profession of athletic training.

Dude. Calm down. It's true that PTs are not athletic trainers, and are not trained similar to ATs. It's also true that, unless the new PT grad is also an ATC, new PT grads don't have the same amount of training in responding to an acute orthopedic/sports injury, or say sports nutrition. However, new grads looking to get the SCS certification usually go through residencies, as the ABPTS requires applicants to have a minimum of 2000 hours of experience solely dealing in sports and management of acute sports injuries, and residencies last anywhere from 1 to 2 years total in the specific area of focus. A PT does have business on a sideline, if he or she is qualified. Even if the PT does not have the SCS, a PT is still a PT, meaning an extensive understanding of biomechanics, kinesiology, functional anatomy, and pathophysiology of the NMSk system. A PT will still recognize if the athlete likely sustained a sprain, fracture, connective tissue tear, etc without a 30+ min eval. Clinical evaluations are longer because they are more comprehensive and involve examination and evaluation of multiple systems, and probable underlying pathologies.

I can't say much about whether or not a PT, SCS will or will not be able to lead the team, but saying they have absolutely no place on the sidelines is completely unfair. And for sure (refer to specific state practice acts on details, at least the states that have them), in the rehabilitation setting, the ATC IS below the PT, as recognized by state law.

 

[atstudent]

I can't say much about whether or not a PT, SCS will or will not be able to lead the team, but saying they have absolutely no place on the sidelines is completely unfair. And for sure (refer to specific state practice acts on details, at least the states that have them), in the rehabilitation setting, the ATC IS below the PT, as recognized by state law.

Actually no they really don't. Unless their training includes dealing with heat illnesses, cervical spine emergencies, concussions, and splinting. Last I checked, those are not covered in PT...

And I'd love to see that. Good luck finding in state law that the AT falls underneath the PT in a rehab setting. I wish you all the luck finding that tidbit!

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I have talked to a Head AT in professional sports. He is a PT as well and overseas everything, but if he weren't he would be doing the same thing. I personally feel that ATCs who are also PTs will only go for Head AT positions in pro sports. I think you would rarely see a ATC/PT being an Assistant AT under a ATC unless that ATC has been there a ton of years. Even so, I think a change would happen sooner or later where that ATC/PT would get the Head Athletic Trainer position as soon as experience isn't a factor anymore.

From my understanding, many PTs try to become Directors of Rehabilitation at D1 Schools. Most of them just need experience with athletes and have their SCS. This would mean that they are in control of everything that goes on inside the Athletic Training room, including the staff.

Do I think they would be on the same level as an MD in terms of overseeing the whole rehab process? No, but I do feel that MDs would prefer a PT to run the show while the ATC works with each athlete individually, then report back to the PT.

They are called head athletic trainers for a reason, it's not a subdiscipline of physical therapy or a midlevel of physical thearpy. Each profession has the right and should own and "run the show" of their own profession. But, PT's absolutely have a place on the field, with or without extensive emergency training. Does a PT belong on the field in place of an ATC? Absolutely not. Nobody does. Is it better for a team to have a PT onsite vs no ATC? Yes. I think the average athlete and parent would like to have a healthcare practitioner nearby during practice/competition, preferably a ATC if they know better.

 

[Azimuthal]

And I'd love to see that. Good luck finding in state law that the AT falls underneath the PT in a rehab setting. I wish you all the luck finding that tidbit!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0-5lnc2hP4X3TTvfQ&sig2=V1sPltvUJ3CGNBl4Vthh0g

 

[questionmark32]

You are either crazy or misinformed. Someone with a PT SCS would NEVER "run the show" in an athletic training room. Why? THEY ARE NOT AN ATHLETIC TRAINER. This entire post and it's replies are beyond ridiculous. ATCs are not PTAs, they are not trained to work "under" a physical therapist. and a physical therapist could in no way do an AT's job out of physical therapy school. you need to get off your high horse and come back to reality. without being trained as an AT, a PT has ZERO business on a sideline. they are not trained in acute care and won't have 30+ minutes to do an evaluation like it is in the clinic. do some research.and know where your strengths and weaknesses lie when compared to the profession of athletic training.

You need to calm down a bit. No one is undermining the Athletic Training profession. What I said is no different than what a lot of D1 schools are currently doing. The PT/ATC/SCS are at times Directors of Rehab. So while the ATC will be implementing the rehab protocols, who do you think they are reporting progress to outside of the team's Head AT? The PT not being qualified on the sideline has already been established in this thread. Did you even read it?

Don't tell me to do the research BUDDY. You have no idea what my background is.

 

[questionmark32]

They are called head athletic trainers for a reason, it's not a subdiscipline of physical therapy or a midlevel of physical thearpy. Each profession has the right and should own and "run the show" of their own profession. But, PT's absolutely have a place on the field, with or without extensive emergency training. Does a PT belong on the field in place of an ATC? Absolutely not. Nobody does. Is it better for a team to have a PT onsite vs no ATC? Yes. I think the average athlete and parent would like to have a healthcare practitioner nearby during practice/competition, preferably a ATC if they know better.

I agree. I have been on teams where there were PTs on the sideline with ATCs, but they had no say/input when dealing with an injury or condition that occured on the field. Now, when that player came in for rehab, their input was put into consideration.

 

[questionmark32]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0-5lnc2hP4X3TTvfQ&sig2=V1sPltvUJ3CGNBl4Vthh0g

I think ATstudent is referring to the Athletic Training Room. ATCs are considered not 'below' a PT in their own setting. There are schools, however, that don't consider their rehab facility an Athletic Training Room.

I would like to hear from ATCs who feel the profession needs to corner high schools and colleges more.

 

[Azimuthal]

I think ATstudent is referring to the Athletic Training Room. ATCs are considered not 'below' a PT in their own setting. There are schools, however, that don't consider their rehab facility an Athletic Training Room.

I would like to hear from ATCs who feel the profession needs to corner high schools and colleges more.

I figured, lol, but 'rehab setting' was pretty general.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I agree. I have been on teams where there were PTs on the sideline with ATCs, but they had no say/input when dealing with an injury or condition that occured on the field. Now, when that player came in for rehab, their input was put into consideration.

Sounds like a serious misallocation of resources there, not to mention an insult to that PT. As I said, each professional should be in control of their practice within their scope, thus the PT should be in charge of anyone's physical therapy. I'm all for true collaboration and completely against any professional working under any other professional within their scope.

 

[goyo1010]

I figured, lol, but 'rehab setting' was pretty general.

I apologize, I should have been more specific. By "rehab setting", I meant a rehab clinic (OP clinic, hospital, etc), not the athletic "training room". And in Texas, the state law says that anyone working in a clinic/hospital that's not a PT or PTA, is considered an aide/tech in the eyes of the law. We had a class on this subject. We have a few ATCs in my class, and they had questions about these things. And we were at a OP ortho clinic the other day, and one of the ATCs was really intrigued about how extensive and long the eval is compared to when she did it on the sidelines, where she had only a couple of seconds to a few minutes.

In my curriculum, we cover concussions, cervical spine emergencies, and splinting (however, not "emergency" splinting). Although we do get taping experience, I do know it's not up to the level of an ATC's training). I never said anything about ATCs being replaced by PTs on the field; ATCs and the field physicians are the emergency experts on the field. However, the SCS PT will have adequate training concerning those injuries you mentioned, or the specialty would be kind of useless.

 

[truthseeker]

I apologize, I should have been more specific. By "rehab setting", I meant a rehab clinic (OP clinic, hospital, etc), not the athletic "training room". And in Texas, the state law says that anyone working in a clinic/hospital that's not a PT or PTA, is considered an aide/tech in the eyes of the law. We had a class on this subject. We have a few ATCs in my class, and they had questions about these things. And we were at a OP ortho clinic the other day, and one of the ATCs was really intrigued about how extensive and long the eval is compared to when she did it on the sidelines, where she had only a couple of seconds to a few minutes.

In my curriculum, we cover concussions, cervical spine emergencies, and splinting (however, not "emergency" splinting). Although we do get taping experience, I do know it's not up to the level of an ATC's training). I never said anything about ATCs being replaced by PTs on the field; ATCs and the field physicians are the emergency experts on the field. However, the SCS PT will have adequate training concerning those injuries you mentioned, or the specialty would be kind of useless.

Have you ever:
practiced extracting a possible cervical injured athlete from a foam gymnastics pit while maintaining a stabile spine?

Practiced removing a diver from a 7 meter platform who hit their head and did a free fall to the water surface, again without moving their neck?

practiced removing a facemask from a football helmet?

reduced a shoulder dislocation? finger dislocation?

done first aid on an open femur fracture?

I think that the athletic trainer credential is unique and incorporates skills and experiences that no SCS PT can match UNLESS they are trained similarly in their residency probably by an ATC.

Good ATCs are just as capable in the rehab world of athletic orthopedics as a good PT. It really comes down to the person, not the credential. Should an ATC be doing rehab on a senior citizen with numerous co-morbidities? No in my opinion. Should they be able to work in a strictly sports medicine OP clinic, yes. Should they be be in charge on the field? Yes in most cases. the exceptions would be if an orthopedist is also on the sideline but not even necessarily a FP doc. It really depends upon the doc.

I have both credentials and there are good and bad ATCs and PTs. Some can solve problems, some can't. Some can remain calm under extreme stress, some can't.

I don't think that anyone can make blanket statements about what is better between an ATC or a PT SCS because it really depends upon the setting and the individual, and their experience.

 

[jjewcu]

Well said truthseeker! I couldn't agree more! This whole thread was getting a little heated, and I don't think there was a better response than what you stated.

 

[goyo1010]

Have you ever:
practiced extracting a possible cervical injured athlete from a foam gymnastics pit while maintaining a stabile spine?

Practiced removing a diver from a 7 meter platform who hit their head and did a free fall to the water surface, again without moving their neck?

practiced removing a facemask from a football helmet?

reduced a shoulder dislocation? finger dislocation?

done first aid on an open femur fracture?

I think that the athletic trainer credential is unique and incorporates skills and experiences that no SCS PT can match UNLESS they are trained similarly in their residency probably by an ATC.

Good ATCs are just as capable in the rehab world of athletic orthopedics as a good PT. It really comes down to the person, not the credential. Should an ATC be doing rehab on a senior citizen with numerous co-morbidities? No in my opinion. Should they be able to work in a strictly sports medicine OP clinic, yes. Should they be be in charge on the field? Yes in most cases. the exceptions would be if an orthopedist is also on the sideline but not even necessarily a FP doc. It really depends upon the doc.

I have both credentials and there are good and bad ATCs and PTs. Some can solve problems, some can't. Some can remain calm under extreme stress, some can't.

I don't think that anyone can make blanket statements about what is better between an ATC or a PT SCS because it really depends upon the setting and the individual, and their experience.

Dunno if the questions were directed to me directly or if you were using "you" more in the indefinite sense. If they are directed at me then my answer would have to be a resounded "no", which was pretty obvious since I'm still a student, and don't plan on going into the sports setting. However, I do agree completely with what you said afterwards. 🙂

 

[greco13]

It really comes down to the person, not the credential.

bingo. I've know some ATs that were far more competent in the management of NMSK compared to some PTs I know, not even talking bout acute care/first responder stuff. Comes down to the person.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

bingo. I've know some ATs that were far more competent in the management of NMSK compared to some PTs I know, not even talking bout acute care/first responder stuff. Comes down to the person.

You do? A relevant theme in this thread is experience and training. Do you think AT's have more experience/training than PT's in management of NMSK conditions? Don't bet on it.

 

[greco13]

You do? A relevant theme in this thread is experience and training. Do you think AT's have more experience/training than PT's in management of NMSK conditions? Don't bet on it.

I do what? ha ha. The point being made is that it comes down to the person, not one credential vs. another. That's why I was comparing clinicians that I know rather that one profession against another.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I do what? ha ha. The point being made is that it comes down to the person, not one credential vs. another. That's why I was comparing clinicians that I know rather that one profession against another.

You said you "know ATC's that are far more competent than PT's in management of NMSK disorders." I doubt there is any actual valid basis for this comment, more like a fabrication or projection in your mind. Do ATC's exist that are far more competent than some PT's in management of athletes NMSK disorders? Hell yes. Would you be able to determine who they are? No. I would really like to see an ATC come into a PT clinic and see 16 patients in one day dealing with their NMSK conditions. Similar to how I'd like to see a PT on a field dealing with emergencies. It's just as likely for me to "know PT's that are far more competent than ATC's in management of on field emergencies." Unlikely and exceeds logic.

 

[greco13]

You said you "know ATC's that are far more competent than PT's in management of NMSK disorders." I doubt there is any actual valid basis for this comment, more like a fabrication or projection in your mind. Do ATC's exist that are far more competent than some PT's in management of athletes NMSK disorders? Hell yes. Would you be able to determine who they are? No. I would really like to see an ATC come into a PT clinic and see 16 patients in one day dealing with their NMSK conditions. Similar to how I'd like to see a PT on a field dealing with emergencies. It's just as likely for me to "know PT's that are far more competent than ATC's in management of on field emergencies." Unlikely and exceeds logic.

I forgot the 'n' on known, which was preceded by 'I've', a conjunction for 'I have'. I was comparing some really amazing ATs I know with some mediocre PTs I know. Why would it be difficult to determine who, of these individuals, is better at managing NMSK after spending hundreds of hours with them both? The point was that it comes down to the individual not the credential. I've see you around here quite a bit 'stirring the pot'. You're a hot head. You need to be nicer to people.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I forgot the 'n' on known, which was preceded by 'I've', a conjunction for 'I have'. I was comparing some really amazing ATs I know with some mediocre PTs I know. Why would it be difficult to determine who, of these individuals, is better at managing NMSK after spending hundreds of hours with them both? The point was that it comes down to the individual not the credential. I've see you around here quite a bit 'stirring the pot'. You're a hot head. You need to be nicer to people.

You will not have the ability to know what is actually amazing and what isn't until you have about 10,000-20,000 hours of clinical experience in a particular profession. That is, the possibility of knowing, it's not even guaranteed. Can you give me a particular case with the ATC's you observed and the amazing things they did? Then how about a particular case with a PT and the mediocre things they did? Students have zero understanding what they're even looking at and have no ability to discern level of competence. "Amazing" is subjective and emotionally charged, and has nothing to do with outcomes or actual clinical skill. 1/7 of professionals are amazing, 5/7 are mediocre within their scope of practice.

 

[questionmark32]

Have you ever:
practiced extracting a possible cervical injured athlete from a foam gymnastics pit while maintaining a stabile spine?

Practiced removing a diver from a 7 meter platform who hit their head and did a free fall to the water surface, again without moving their neck?

practiced removing a facemask from a football helmet?

reduced a shoulder dislocation? finger dislocation?

done first aid on an open femur fracture?

I think that the athletic trainer credential is unique and incorporates skills and experiences that no SCS PT can match UNLESS they are trained similarly in their residency probably by an ATC.

Good ATCs are just as capable in the rehab world of athletic orthopedics as a good PT. It really comes down to the person, not the credential. Should an ATC be doing rehab on a senior citizen with numerous co-morbidities? No in my opinion. Should they be able to work in a strictly sports medicine OP clinic, yes. Should they be be in charge on the field? Yes in most cases. the exceptions would be if an orthopedist is also on the sideline but not even necessarily a FP doc. It really depends upon the doc.

I have both credentials and there are good and bad ATCs and PTs. Some can solve problems, some can't. Some can remain calm under extreme stress, some can't.

I don't think that anyone can make blanket statements about what is better between an ATC or a PT SCS because it really depends upon the setting and the individual, and their experience.

I 100% with what you're saying here. ATCs know how to deal with emergency situations far more than anyone outside of EMT and Emergency Medicine Physicians. My only question to you or anyone now is what is the point of the SCS credential if none of what you mentioned is involved?

 

[nangus]

I don't think the SCS will eliminate the ATC role. However to be eligible for the SCS one must possess either ATC or EMT credentials or have successfully taken the course provided by the APTA. Also there is a required number of hours, several thousand, spent in the sports medicine atmosphere (which I'm sure included sideline activities) to be eligible to sit for the exam. The other route is a residency in which all these criteria are met, with the hours been reduced because of it being many times a 6 day + evening per week curriculum.

So I would argue that the number of hours required in clinic and on field would be more than enough to become a competent acute sport injury clinician since ATC programs (not counting pre-reqs) is only 2 years

 

[questionmark32]

Then what's the difference between SCS/PT and an ATC?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[truthseeker]

I 100% with what you're saying here. ATCs know how to deal with emergency situations far more than anyone outside of EMT and Emergency Medicine Physicians. My only question to you or anyone now is what is the point of the SCS credential if none of what you mentioned is involved?

Its for the PTs who want to be involved in sports but didn't go through an athletic training program in undergrad. Its certainly better than just the PT credential but not as good as the ATC credential. IMO

 

[kmendes]

I've been looking into SCS programs for a possible residency. Personally if I'm an NFL owner, I want PTs over ATCs because of their diagnostic and injury management skills. I almost went into ATC as a bachelors before switching to Kinesiology and I have to say that PT education about sideline treatment is far beyond ATC (standard, not post-bachelors) unless you went to a PT program that didn't go into that, which is unfortunate.

I have a background in sports, exercise science degree, and soon to be DPT. I'd like a SCS to boost my resume and would feel more valuable to a team than a ATC with a Masters. Am I missing something here? It seems like an obvious choice for me. And with orthopedic docs on staff, I would imagine they'd favor good orthopedic PTs as well.

 

[atstudent]

I've been looking into SCS programs for a possible residency. Personally if I'm an NFL owner, I want PTs over ATCs because of their diagnostic and injury management skills.

Because ATs don't have a clue about any of that... 🙄

I almost went into ATC as a bachelors before switching to Kinesiology and I have to say that PT education about sideline treatment is far beyond ATC (standard, not post-bachelors).

And what did kinesiology get you that turned you off from AT? See, a logical person would have said "hey I want to work with athletes, so maybe I should go into a field that specializes in athletes. Quite a concept; I know...And since you didn't go through an AT program, how can you say that "PT education about sideline treatment is far beyond AT?"