Does the school a pharmacist graduated from now matter?

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WVUPharm2007

WVUPharm2007

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I briefly touched upon this in my ranting thread. Perhaps it would make an interesting discussion/flamefest/pissing match. We haven't had one of those in a good week or so.

With the seemingly neverending influx of new schools opening every year and the resultant dilution of the quality of students being put into these schools; does it now matter which school you graduated from?

For those out in the workforce; would think twice about hiring a graduate from a school that opened 4 years ago? 6 years ago? 10 years ago? Does it not matter to you at all?
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I open with disclosure that I'm a 4th year student.

If I were an employer or in some place of influence in determining a new pharmacist hire, I would consider that. It is my opinion that new schools often, as you mention, are of lackluster quality and contain many opening flaws, or "growing pains" as they might call them.

No school that just opened has a truly qualified person manning every single aspect of a pharmacy program; meaning you get unqualified people covering certain areas that they a) they never deal with and aren't well versed in b) don't practice in and c) probably do not care about it all. Random joe blow teaching pharmaceutics? Sure. Got a PhD in med chem? come on over, we need one of those! No true cardiology pharmacist? well, we'll get our psych pharm to overlap those lectures.

Now, does this happen in schools that have been open for 30 years? Absolutely. It happens in my school. But i'm sure the degree to which it happens is much worse in recently opened schools.
 
After aplpying for residency and going through that headache...I do have to say yes, it does matter.
 
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If I was hiring for retail practice, I couldn't care less as long as they had a license and breathing.

For hospital or clinical setting, I would look at the quality of internship and 4th year rotation not the school itself. Those schools who transitioned to PharmD from BS Pharm in the 90's were just learning to put together quality 4th year rotations... I have to say some were done very poorly. Maybe they're better now..

For those schools with PharmD programs dating back to the 60's, I tend to think the quality of of 4th year is higher.

But most importantly, it all depends on the individual practitioner.
 
I would like to think that it's not the school that matters but the quality of the person. Good schools turn out crap students and vice versa. My own caveat: I haven't started school yet. Ask me this when I graduate (which, if a miracle happens, will be in 5 years. Without a miracle, never).
 
ItsOverZyvox said:
If I was hiring for retail practice, I couldn't care less as long as they had a license and breathing.

For hospital or clinical setting, I would look at the quality of internship and 4th year rotation not the school itself. Those schools who transitioned to PharmD from BS Pharm in the 90's were just learning to put together quality 4th year rotations... I have to say some were done very poorly. Maybe they're better now..

For those schools with PharmD programs dating back to the 60's, I tend to think the quality of of 4th year is higher.

But most importantly, it all depends on the individual practitioner.
Click to expand...

So what if it's me.
School: WVU - been around since the early 1900s.

Rotations:
Did a clinical outpatient rotation at a free clinical with a SoP professor, a month of puking during acute care at the WVUH ED, two internal medicine rotations at WVUH rounding with IM teams and WVU SoP professors, an internal medicine rotation at the hospital I'm at now where we did the same thing as at WVU, an independent retail rotation, 2 hospital pharmacy "institutional" rotations at small critical access hospitals, a rotation at Mylan Pharmaceuticals, a rotation at UnitedBioSource (a firm that conducts clinical trials), and a rotation with a pharmacist who did diabetes medication management full time.

So that's:
4 legit acute care rotations
2 outpatient primary care-ish type of rotations
2 hospital staffing rotations
2 industry rotations
1 retail pharmacy rotation

You consider that good?
 
ItsOverZyvox said:
If I was hiring for retail practice, I couldn't care less as long as they had a license and breathing.
Click to expand...

The bolded may result in you being labeled as overly selective when it comes to identifying suitable retail pharmacists.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
So what if it's me.
School: WVU - been around since the early 1900s.

Rotations:
Did a clinical outpatient rotation at a free clinical with a SoP professor, a month of puking during acute care at the WVUH ED, two internal medicine rotations at WVUH rounding with IM teams and WVU SoP professors, an internal medicine rotation at the hospital I'm at now where we did the same thing as at WVU, an independent retail rotation, 2 hospital pharmacy "institutional" rotations at small critical access hospitals, a rotation at Mylan Pharmaceuticals, a rotation at UnitedBioSource (a firm that conducts clinical trials), and a rotation with a pharmacist who did diabetes medication management full time.

So that's:
4 legit acute care rotations
2 outpatient primary care-ish type of rotations
2 hospital staffing rotations
2 industry rotations
1 retail pharmacy rotation

You consider that good?
Click to expand...

What is this...."hon..how do I look in this dress?" question?
If I was to qualify you and then interview you, we would probably talk about football for 10 minutes...then I would ask general questions about your rotations and what you learned. That would be enough for me to assess if you have a clue or not. Anybody can look good on CV. But you're not going to BS me face to face.
 
ItsOverZyvox said:
What is this...."hon..how do I look in this dress?" question?
If I was to qualify you and then interview you, we would probably talk about football for 10 minutes...then I would ask general questions about your rotations and what you learned. That would be enough for me to assess if you have a clue or not. Anybody can look good on CV. But you're not going to BS me face to face.
Click to expand...

Dammit, I'm asking you what you consider good "on paper." Obviously you'd interview someone first. I hope to God so, at least. I know some people with 3.9 GPAs I wouldn't trust with standing in the corner and holding two Mucinex tablets for 8 hours.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Dammit, I'm asking you what you consider good "on paper." Obviously you'd interview someone first. I hope to God so, at least. I know some people with 3.9 GPAs I wouldn't trust with standing in the corner and holding two Mucinex tablets for 8 hours.
Click to expand...

Geebus... Ok, you have potential. I wasn't too much different than you. I was a hothead and ran wild. But I was a bulldog... and no physician ran from me until they heard me out.
 
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WVUPharm2007 said:
I know some people with 3.9 GPAs I wouldn't trust with standing in the corner and holding two Mucinex tablets for 8 hours.
Click to expand...
The mental image there is just fantastic... LMAO:laugh::laugh:
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
So what if it's me.
School: WVU - been around since the early 1900s.

Rotations:
Did a clinical outpatient rotation at a free clinical with a SoP professor, a month of puking during acute care at the WVUH ED, two internal medicine rotations at WVUH rounding with IM teams and WVU SoP professors, an internal medicine rotation at the hospital I'm at now where we did the same thing as at WVU, an independent retail rotation, 2 hospital pharmacy "institutional" rotations at small critical access hospitals, a rotation at Mylan Pharmaceuticals, a rotation at UnitedBioSource (a firm that conducts clinical trials), and a rotation with a pharmacist who did diabetes medication management full time.

So that's:
4 legit acute care rotations
2 outpatient primary care-ish type of rotations
2 hospital staffing rotations
2 industry rotations
1 retail pharmacy rotation

You consider that good?
Click to expand...
FYI the ACPE changed things for newer schools requesting accreditation, at least that's what the University of Hawaii at Hilo has stated. They have students going on rotations for 4 hours a week starting during their P1 year (and alternating their site every semester) all the way up to the traditional 4th year being entirely rotations. So from an *experience* standpoint this system seems superior. As far as new school's didactic learning, it's hard to believe they are on par with schools that are established.
 
I go to the University of Maryland, which has been around since 1841 and although I'm very satisfied with the education that I've been receiving I still feel like there are some shortcommings in the program, so I can't even imagine how flawed other, newer schools are!

I think it all depends where these pharmacists are being hired, in my personal experiences, great clinical positions are much more difficult to obtain than great community positions. As a matter of fact, most retailers could give a rat's behind about where you got your PharmD, most are so understaffed that they'd probably be willing to hire someone who graduated in the Caribbean :laugh:
 
MountainPharmD said:
I suppose that is not quite as stringent as hiring a hospital pharmacy....Where a corn cob stuffed up your a** and delusions of grandeur are all that is required.....:laugh:
Click to expand...

ehhh important people discussing topics retail folks can't comprehend... y'all need not reply on this thread!

:smuggrin:
 
MountainPharmD said:
I with you on that...I think the years have clouded Z-packs brain.....Either that or he has been out of actual practice so long his memories have faded....
Click to expand...

I'm in "actual practice" daily, yo.
 
The answer is NO.

Good pharmacists come from all schools and bad pharmacists come from all schools.

The only thing your school can do for you is open a door initially. Once your out for a few years, it's what you have done that counts, not where you went.
 
Old Timer said:
The answer is NO.

Good pharmacists come from all schools and bad pharmacists come from all schools.

The only thing your school can do for you is open a door initially. Once your out for a few years, it's what you have done that counts, not where you went.
Click to expand...

Dang it, I told you retail folks need not reply!!!

j/k

I agree wholeheartedly.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
I briefly touched upon this in my ranting thread. Perhaps it would make an interesting discussion/flamefest/pissing match. We haven't had one of those in a good week or so.

With the seemingly neverending influx of new schools opening every year and the resultant dilution of the quality of students being put into these schools; does it now matter which school you graduated from?

For those out in the workforce; would think twice about hiring a graduate from a school that opened 4 years ago? 6 years ago? 10 years ago? Does it not matter to you at all?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I can't resist,
but if your from West Virginia then I don't think it matters what school you go to or what rotations you had, I am still not hiring you. bad genes... lots of in breeding... concealed weapons... dixie flag... nascar...
 
Wait, I just asked recently if I should switch schools if I get into the school I am waitlisted at cause its a top school in comparison to the one I am in now and everyone was like no school doesn't matter blah blah blah!
 
Prepharm1214 said:
FYI the ACPE changed things for newer schools requesting accreditation, at least that's what the University of Hawaii at Hilo has stated. They have students going on rotations for 4 hours a week starting during their P1 year (and alternating their site every semester) all the way up to the traditional 4th year being entirely rotations. So from an *experience* standpoint this system seems superior. As far as new school's didactic learning, it's hard to believe they are on par with schools that are established.
Click to expand...

FYI - this will be required of all pharmacy schools by ACPE, not just new ones. I think when schools are implementing this is somewhat dependent on when they actually come up for the re-accreditation process. I believe the total hours requirement is 300 hours in early practice experiences spread over the first 3 years. The schools have a lot of flexibility in how they meet the requirements - for example, at my school our service learning hours count toward part of that total. However, my understanding from some comments I've heard from faculty this year is that a lot of pharmacy schools are having problems finding enough suitable rotation sites outside of retail settings to place the IPPE students.
 
I'm not now in a hiring position, but I did in a former life. My answer to whether it matters is a qualified maybe. I do think it would cause me to look more deeply into their prior education before pharmacy school, since I think it is likely that the OVERALL quality of student accepted to the schools that have provisional accreditation in the first couple of years is probably not as good as established schools. My husband often accuses me of being an intellectual snob (and there's some truth to that), but the reality is that a 4.0 from some schools just really isn't equivalent to 4.0 from other schools.
 
Prepharm1214 said:
FYI the ACPE changed things for newer schools requesting accreditation, at least that's what the University of Hawaii at Hilo has stated. They have students going on rotations for 4 hours a week starting during their P1 year (and alternating their site every semester) all the way up to the traditional 4th year being entirely rotations. So from an *experience* standpoint this system seems superior. As far as new school's didactic learning, it's hard to believe they are on par with schools that are established.
Click to expand...

They started that the year after me. We were the last class to do 11 rotations. The C/O '09 and on are doing that. Personally, I think the two summer/nine 4th year rotation schedule is stupid because you don't know what they hell you are doing before that point. The whole "getting experience" thing is overrated if you're a fish out of water.
 
museabuse said:
I'm sorry I can't resist,
but if your from West Virginia then I don't think it matters what school you go to or what rotations you had, I am still not hiring you. bad genes... lots of in breeding... concealed weapons... dixie flag... nascar...
Click to expand...


Hmmm...actually we've been scientifically deemed not inbred. I'm not making this up. See.

My genes are awesome. In my prime I ran a 4.47 hand timed forty. I'm 25 and I look like I'm 19. My daddy is 60 and people think he's 45...still with a full head of hair. It's that country air, son.

We don't conceal weapons. That's more of a ghetto thug thing. We have shotguns and the cops all agree that we should have them.

WV was actually a Union state. Dixie flags make no sense here. In fact, WV broke AWAY from a confederate state and was the only state created during the Civil War.

And while I'm not a NASCAR fan personally...what's so bad about it?
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Hmmm...actually we've been scientifically deemed not inbred. I'm not making this up. See.

My genes are awesome. In my prime I ran a 4.47 hand timed forty. I'm 25 and I look like I'm 19. My daddy is 60 and people think he's 45...still with a full head of hair. It's that country air, son.

We don't conceal weapons. That's more of a ghetto thug thing. We have shotguns and the cops all agree that we should have them.

WV was actually a Union state. Dixie flags make no sense here. In fact, WV broke AWAY from a confederate state and was the only state created during the Civil War.

And while I'm not a NASCAR fan personally...what's so bad about it?
Click to expand...

Personally, I am a huge NASCAR fan and people who make fun of it are usually just sissy-types who wouldn't know horsepower if it effed them in the A.
 
codeman2012 said:
Personally, I am a huge NASCAR fan and people who make fun of it are usually just sissy-types who wouldn't know horsepower if it effed them in the A.
Click to expand...

I just remember that there is/was a dude named Dick Trickle I'd hear about on Sportscenter every now and then. Heh...I wish that was my name...
 
I think it would depend heavily on a whole mess of things.

Faculty side:
My pharmacy program is new, but the school has been around since the early 1800's. Every faculty member running the school has at least 7-10 years teaching experience (lots of former associate deans, etc...), including medical school faculty who teach courses.

I also know of a new stand alone program with ONE person (the dean) having many years of experience, while they brought in any joe blow with a pulse to teach the programs.

Student side:
Yes, the number of pharmacy schools have increased, but so has the application pool. If the pool stayed the same, then I would say yes, the newer schools are bottom feeding. What you end up seeing are students who would have gotten into a "top 10" PharmD program in, say, 2001, not getting in now. Where are they going? Newer programs or the "mid-level" programs, passing admissions pressure down the line.

Accreditation side:
After the HICP scandal, ACPE kicked it up a notch. That's squeezing ALL schools, not just new ones.


So...is there a difference between a top program and a new school? Yes, there always has been. I think if you inquire about the status of a new school, you'll have to dig deeper with respect to who's been teaching, quality of rotations, and other aspects.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
WV was actually a Union state. Dixie flags make no sense here. In fact, WV broke AWAY from a confederate state and was the only state created during the Civil War.
Click to expand...

It's actually, or additionally, the last state formed east of the Mississippi River. *props to unforgettable, random Jeopardy facts from when I was, like, 12*
 
AbsoluteEthanol said:
I go to the University of Maryland, which has been around since 1841 and although I'm very satisfied with the education that I've been receiving I still feel like there are some shortcommings in the program, so I can't even imagine how flawed other, newer schools are!

I think it all depends where these pharmacists are being hired, in my personal experiences, great clinical positions are much more difficult to obtain than great community positions. As a matter of fact, most retailers could give a rat's behind about where you got your PharmD, most are so understaffed that they'd probably be willing to hire someone who graduated in the Caribbean :laugh:
Click to expand...

Here's one shortcoming of Maryland's pharmacy program: Lack of compounding skills by its students.
 
Does the school a pharmacist graduated from now matter?

Don't think so, I've been really impressed with some students from schools less than ten years old, my school was established in 1878, I don't care-it depends on the person, but my campus had nice decrepit old buildings (and profs).
 
It makes a difference initially, especially if you want to practice in an acute care setting (hospital). After a couple of years it will make little difference. I've met all kinds...idiots from great schools....great ones from "bad schools."
 
loo said:
Here's one shortcoming of Maryland's pharmacy program: Lack of compounding skills by its students.
Click to expand...

Because it's an elective and people are lazy. There's about 20-30 people that graduate every year with mad compounding skilz.... they move to NY to work. :rolleyes:

After looking at the programs for a lot of schools that seems to be a growing trend. Sucks for the vets, since that's basically the bulk of "real compounding" and any of my rotations. I did compounding at all of them, but apparently one preceptor's idea of compounding is mixing antibiotic A into cream B. At least he wasn't a Maryland grad. ;)
 
Sorry for the double, but something occured to me in the wee hours of the morning. While a number of people are on here saying it doesn't, the reality is it doesn't matter to them. And for straight retail, I'd be hard pressed to imagine anyone caring, but if you want to go into more niche' positions the greater the likelihood the academic womb that spit you out will matter.

We had a poster (and now maybe a lurker) who said she did look at degrees for her MD's and would only go to ones that graduated from top schools. She also went on to say that she likely got her current position in some part to going to her school. So it matters in part to her, it's bound to matter to other people as well, and while people can argue whether it's appropriate it doesn't change the fact that it's a human being interviewing you.

Ultimately I think a more accurate response would be it won't matter to 95% of the people you interview with, but if you want to get into a specialty or niche market, I would start looking for ways to pad Ye Olde CV.
 
Just wondering, what do you all think would be the "big" names for SOPs? Except for us (pharmacists, applicants, faculty), the general public or work field would probably see schools like UNC, UMD, USC, WVU, Purdue, Auburn etc. as more recognizable than smaller institutions, and therefore believe that they have better programs. Of course whether that is true or not is another story and only we would know those facts.

Reason I bring this up is that it's interesting to me that pharmacy is not represented in the ivy league. So while the "top" people who graduate in the popular professions like medicine, law, and business may come out of Harvard, our "top" people come out of state schools (mostly).
 
inquirer89 said:
Just wondering, what do you all think would be the "big" names for SOPs? Except for us (pharmacists, applicants, faculty), the general public or work field would probably see schools like UNC, UMD, USC, WVU, Purdue, Auburn etc. as more recognizable than smaller institutions, and therefore believe that they have better programs. Of course whether that is true or not is another story and only we would know those facts.

Reason I bring this up is that it's interesting to me that pharmacy is not represented in the ivy league. So while the "top" people who graduate in the popular professions like medicine, law, and business may come out of Harvard, our "top" people come out of state schools (mostly).
Click to expand...

You answered your own question. The land grant schools tend to have the oldest and most respected programs.
 
Would you care which school a pharmacist graduated from if they are from Canada?
 
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