Does university matter?

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Why do you think this is the case?

Being cynical as I am there could be lots if reasons. Admitting 3.3's from top schools instead of 3.9s from average ones would involve a huge hit to the stats schools want to keep high for ranking/prestige reasons. As mimelim mentioned it would be a big pain in the ass to figure out and apply appropriate adjustments and its just one of many complicated factors in GPAs. Many adcoms probably went to the nationally average schools and would dislike recognizing a huge disparity for the same reasons people on SDN do. Etc, etc.
 
Would you really take a 3.0 from Berkeley over a 4.0 at SLU? This is anecdotal, but one of my good friends at SLU transferred to Hopkins after his sophomore year. He was consistently getting A+'s in his classes at SLU. I imagine Hopkins was much more challenging.

If you really dislike SLU, do not go. I like SLU, but I agree that the UC's are better deal. I hope you get into the program you want!

I gotta get the high MCAT score anyway after all. SLU doesn't weigh more than UCs now that I think about it
 
Would you really take a 3.0 from Berkeley over a 4.0 at SLU? This is anecdotal, but one of my good friends at SLU transferred to Hopkins after his sophomore year. He was consistently getting A+'s in his classes at SLU. I imagine Hopkins was much more challenging.

If you really dislike SLU, do not go. I like SLU, but I agree that the UC's are better deal. I hope you get into the program you want!

Besides if I ever don't get into the medical school just in case at least I get way more options than what SLU diploma promises
 
I gotta get the high MCAT score anyway after all. SLU doesn't weigh more than UCs now that I think about it

I wouldn't assume UCSD would open many more doors. Cal and UCLA maaaaaybe, but SD and Davis vs SLU not so much

Edit: idk why you have such a low opinion of slu, its act range is 25-30 almost identical to ucsd 25-31 and higher than Davis 23-29
 
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Having a spouse who has taught at the UG level gives me a special insight into this. Grade inflation exists not to benefit students, but to protect Assistant Professors at teaching heavy schools (as opposed to a research powerhouse like UC Berkley), who are judged for rank promotion and tenure primarily on student evaluations. If you don't give out lots of good grades, your evals suffer accordingly

Why are you against grade inflation? Do you do some sort of negative compensation for places known to inflate to ridiculous levels or do students in fact benefit from inflationary policies?

I'd also like to point out that many of us on Adcoms have no idea if XYZ U is a good school with grade deflation (or inflation). As such, comments like "well, she went to U Chicago and had a 3.4, that has to count for something" occasionally get floated when discussing a candidate, but then they get ignored. School reputation does help Admissions deans because feeder schools have a known product (for example, our state schools system out here in Goroland are good, and the two local state schools provide most of our students. Does this mean we'll reject someone who did well from Kutztown State? or Pepperdine? No! To us, doing well anywhere, in any major, is a good sign.

To reiterate what the exceptionally sage Mimelim has stated, a seat in medical school is not a reward for good grades or being a good student.

Could a 3.30/35 get accepted into, say, Vanderbilt? Yes. Said student may have bomb freshman year, and had straight A's for the remaining time. Unless you have their packet in hand, there's often more than meets the eye. this is why, when I give "What are my chances?" advice here, I look for comments like "steep upward trend" or strong rising trend" in posts.
 
@Goro why would a school rely on student evals if they knew they were shallow and based mostly on grades received??
 
Many adcoms probably went to the nationally average schools and would dislike recognizing a huge disparity for the same reasons people on SDN do. Etc, etc.

Jesus dude... your posts in every thread on this topic sound bitter enough most of the time. When you play cards like that you sound pretentious and entitled.

...or the more likely explanation is that those on selection committees come from a variety of educational backgrounds (with a strong skew toward the top-end schools) and through their experiences in education, which extends way beyond undergrad, they're simply not as impressed with your educational background as you are.
 
Jesus dude... your posts in every thread on this topic sound bitter enough most of the time. When you play cards like that you sound pretentious and entitled.

...or the more likely explanation is that those on selection committees come from a variety of educational backgrounds (with a strong skew toward the top-end schools) and through their experiences in education, which extends way beyond undergrad, they're simply not as impressed with your educational background as you are.

More indignant than bitter since I made my >3.9. I won't contest that i can sound pretentious, but I'm basing it on what I see on SDN not my own high opinions of certain schools. People from State can be defensive as hell about their As being just as tough to earn as at [notoriously difficult deflating top school] despite all the numbers to the contrary
 
More indignant than bitter since I made my >3.9. I won't contest that i can sound pretentious, but I'm basing it on what I see on SDN not my own high opinions of certain schools. People from State can be defensive as hell about their As being just as tough to earn as at [notoriously difficult deflating top school] despite all the numbers to the contrary

I had a great undergrad GPA FWIW, and would go to my undergrad again because I enjoyed it so much...that being said if I were purely trying to get into the best medical school I would have gone to either an easier state school, or applied to harvard and if I got in there I'd have the benefits of grade inflation + more opportunities...

Lower rank schools are way easier than say top 30, with the exception of some top schools with grade inflation (note: not really inflation per se, they just account for the fact that pretty much anyone that gets into harvard is reasonably smart so the average probably shouldn't be a B). There are also some top schools (like MIT/Cal tech) that I would have been crushed GPA-wise and my chances for medical school would have been shot.

Go on open courseware and check out MIT's courses...very glad I didn't go there.

You'll note that at top 5 medical schools you have plenty of people from georgia state, UC Davis etc. It's easier to maintain a 3.8+ at these schools, and if that time is invested in proper extracurriculars they come out ahead of someone struggling to maintain that 3.8+ at a harder school imo.

Don't select your undergrad with this as a significant factor...it's just something to be aware of.
 
OK people I still do like UC. Top from SLU vs. Middle top tier from UC... come on you guys know who gathers more crowd
 
More indignant than bitter since I made my >3.9. I won't contest that i can sound pretentious, but I'm basing it on what I see on SDN not my own high opinions of certain schools. People from State can be defensive as hell about their As being just as tough to earn as at [notoriously difficult deflating top school] despite all the numbers to the contrary
But you don't have all of the numbers. Your argument simply cannot account for every state school. Yes, it's most likely true that schools like Chicago and Princeton are more rigorous than a majority of state schools, but who cares?!

You can still have a 4.0/40 and sound bitter i.e. my LizzyM is worth more than yours.

Also, don't people at your school with a low 3 gpa get in anyway? And if they don't get in, they can rock a post-bacc and get accepted at a later cycle. It's not that big of a deal.
 
Yes, it's most likely true that schools like Chicago and Princeton are more rigorous than a majority of state schools, but who cares?!

I care. And admissions deans care from what I hear at info sessions. That's probably the third time I mentioned that. But those are admissions deans from the top schools who say that.

(note: not really inflation per se, they just account for the fact that pretty much anyone that gets into harvard is reasonably smart so the average probably shouldn't be a B).

Average isn't a B at Harvard 😉 Harvard grades to an A-, at most B+, curve.
 
I care. And admissions deans care from what I hear at info sessions. That's probably the third time I mentioned that. But those are admissions deans from the top schools who say that.



Average isn't a B at Harvard 😉 Harvard grades to an A-, at most B+, curve.
I know they care, but I was referring to something else. IIRC, efle believes that people with 3.2s from top grade deflating schools should get the same consideration as people from state schools with 3.7s. And that will not happen because adcoms don't care enough about that "rigor gap," especially when there are 3.8-4.0 students at those top schools.

You might as well read this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-school-my-firsthand-experience.1105853/

Sorry, I don't feel like repeating everything I posted there.
 
I know they care, but I was referring to something else. IIRC, efle believes that people with 3.2s from top grade deflating schools should get the same consideration as people from state schools with 3.7s. And that will not happen because adcoms don't care enough about that "rigor gap," especially when there are 3.8-4.0 students at those top schools.

Sure, but those 3.8-4.0s are a minority at grade-deflaters. They also tend towards academia, in my experience. So in a given year, you might have about 50% 3.5-3.6s applying from a grade-deflater and a quarter above and below. The GPA boost may not be 0.5 - and he makes it quite clear that that's what it should be, not what it is - but there may be a slight one. This debate is purely academic, as I'm sure we have all agreed that there is no huge GPA boost in reality. Where we differ is whether we think there should be. And for the comparison reasons I've stated before, I don't see a good case why there shouldn't be a moderate GPA boost. MCAT is the great equalizer, of course.
 
@Cyberdyne 101 I already posted the data justifying a 3.2-3.4 --> 3.8-4.0 sized adjustment. There's enough data to.show the gap you so hate does exist and is very large compared to the national average school.

Lol at "it's not a big deal"! People get weeded out who would be fine at state, people.who make it through often get in somewhere but are held back from top.schools by their numbers that would be stellar at state, and "you can just pay tens of thousands and yearof your life to rock a postbacc". You can try to argue whether a 0.6 disparity exists not whether its existence if shown is very unfair (see mimelims post)
 
I don't agree. I know of a person who went to Pritzker @ UChicago after attending a pretty low-ranked university. I should probably mention that he actually went to a community college for the first two years and transferred to the low-ranked university for the last two years.

He simply worked harder than the other students.

I wouldn't suggest stressing yourself over society's over-exaggerated standards of 'prestige.' It would be rational to think that medical schools would prefer a hard-working student at a less known uni over a more laid-back student at Harvard.
 
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@Cyberdyne 101 I already posted the data justifying a 3.2-3.4 --> 3.8-4.0 sized adjustment. There's enough data to.show the gap you so hate does exist and is very large compared to the national average school.

Lol at "it's not a big deal"! People get weeded out who would be fine at state, people.who make it through often get in somewhere but are held back from top.schools by their numbers that would be stellar at state, and "you can just pay tens of thousands and yearof your life to rock a postbacc". You can try to argue whether a 0.6 disparity exists not whether its existence if shown is very unfair (see mimelims post)
I never disputed the existence of that gap. And granted, I would hate it too, if it had impacted me. But I still maintain that it's not that big of a deal (at least in some places). People often do post-baccs at their state schools at a relatively low cost.

I just get upset when people lump every state school into the same "easy" category. A national average doesn't account for rigorous courses/departments at certain state schools because other institutions (i.e. the easier ones) are bringing the numbers down.

And you know it's not practical to demand that adcoms at over 100 med schools (or even at just the top 20) change their gpa standards for students from a few schools. As I mentioned before, the changes should occur at the grade deflating undergrads.


Yeah, and we all know that a rigor gap exists between schools.

I guess the lesson is to not attend Princeton if you can't get the 3.6+

IIRC, efle believes that people with 3.2s from top grade deflating schools should get the same consideration as people from state schools with 3.7s. And that will not happen because adcoms don't care enough about that "rigor gap," especially when there are 3.8-4.0 students at those top schools.

The argument is pointless because it's misdirected (among other reasons). If a school is making material unnecessarily difficult, then it's harming students IMO. On the other hand, if the material is too easy, then the school is doing a disservice by not adequately preparing students for future challenges. It's all about achieving balance.

Also, keep in mind that a lower emphasis on GPA can hinder students at more challenging schools who did not perform well on the MCAT but managed to achieve a competitive GPA.
 
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@Cyberdyne 101 i guess i'd agree that since adcoms wont acknowledge/try to account fir a massive difference, the.schools.become justified for runaway inflation. one counterpoint - part of.the GPA is supposed to.show work ethic which would very suddenly decrease if students at top schools had to.achieve a nationally accessible standard of competency instead of out achieving each other.
 
@Cyberdyne 101 i guess i'd agree that since adcoms wont acknowledge/try to account fir a massive difference, the.schools.become justified for runaway inflation. one counterpoint - part of.the GPA is supposed to.show work ethic which would very suddenly decrease if students at top schools had to.achieve a nationally accessible standard of competency instead of out achieving each other.
But you have to work hard at Stanford and Brown for those As. They don't just hand them out willy nilly-lol.
 
@Cyberdyne 101 I'm not referring to the current inflation levels (which are easily justified) I'm referring to what you mentioned earlier about 90% of the class making an A if they were all competent
 
So I read the whole thread.

@efle

Can you, in one or two sentences, explain what it is you want adcoms or medical schools to do in response to this disparity you have shown?

Consider low 3's GPAs from top universities to demonstrate equivalent academic ability as high 3's from typical schools. Realize As from Kutztown are not the same as Ivy, etc. Has this been unclear?
 
So I read the whole thread.

@efle

Can you, in one or two sentences, explain what it is you want adcoms or medical schools to do in response to this disparity you have shown?

Consider low 3's GPAs from top universities to demonstrate equivalent academic ability as high 3's from typical schools. Realize As from Kutztown are not the same as Ivy, etc. Has this been unclear?
 
@Cyberdyne 101 I'm not referring to the current inflation levels (which are easily justified) I'm referring to what you mentioned earlier about 90% of the class making an A if they were all competent
Oh, that was just a random hypothetical. However, is it wrong if 90% of a class at a grade inflating ivy achieves at least an A-?

Undergrad coursework shouldn't be like Dark Souls.
image.jpg
 
Consider low 3's GPAs from top universities to demonstrate equivalent academic ability as high 3's from typical schools. Realize As from Kutztown are not the same as Ivy, etc. Has this been unclear?

It hasn't been unclear I just don't want to confuse what you are saying.

Does this mean that higher GPAs from top universities should be considered over low gpas from top universities?

In essence Kutztown 3.7 < WashU 3.3 < WashU 3.9 ?

Do you think this difference should be 0.6 precisely based on your data if the competing school is totally average?
 
K, this is an interesting debate. So how would guys rank a 3.7 at a random state school vs Berkeley, wash u, Stanford, and Harvard. This whole deflation thing gets real complicated at some point.
 
It hasn't been unclear I just don't want to confuse what you are saying.

Does this mean that higher GPAs from top universities should be considered over low gpas from top universities?

In essence Kutztown 3.7 < WashU 3.3 < WashU 3.9 ?

Do you think this difference should be 0.6 precisely based on your data if the competing school is totally average?

The ~.6 is just what falls out of my back of the envelope plots.

Yes it appears high GPAs at wash u outperform both their equivalent nationally and lower GPAs from washu.

AaqVte5.png
 
The ~.6 is just what falls out of my back of the envelope plots.

Yes it appears high GPAs at wash u outperform both their equivalent nationally and lower GPAs from washu.

AaqVte5.png

So information should exist to calculate a similar spread for every school out there? Every school should provide this to help adcoms make a more informed decision?

Second question: If the GPA and MCAT exist to measure preparedness for medical school then is medical school preparedness a gradient or is it binary? I.e is it "more and less prepared" or "prepared, not prepared" ?
 
K, this is an interesting debate. So how would guys rank a 3.7 at a random state school vs Berkeley, wash u, Stanford, and Harvard. This whole deflation thing gets real complicated at some point.
3.7 Wash U > 3.7 Stanford (most likely?!)
due to course rigor.
(Edit: and the 3.7 at Wash U won't give anyone an advantage over the 3.7 at Stanford, which makes the extra rigor unnecessary IMO)

3.2 Wash U student can likely pull off a 3.7+ at a less rigorous state school. Perhaps that 3.2 Wash U student would have a 3.5 at a grade inflating ivy.

3.7 at some state schools is similar to a 3.7 at a grade inflating ivy in terms of course rigor.
 
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So information should exist to calculate a similar spread for every school out there? Every school should provide this to help adcoms make a more informed decision?

Second question: If the GPA and MCAT exist to measure preparedness for medical school then is medical school preparedness a gradient or is it binary? I.e is it "more and less prepared" or "prepared, not prepared" ?

More realistically many schools that are tougher than average would provide this.data to benefit their students if adcoms made note of it. I imagine schools at and below the average levels wouldn't provide it and would benefit from that. Pretty sure some schools already do their own analyses to this sort of effect like the one (name escapes me) that adds points depending on your undergrad.

We know its a gradient where odds of success increase with better numbers, but that's not the most relevant info since top schools are selective way beyond the point of very likely to succeed anyways
 
More realistically many schools that are tougher than average would provide this.data to benefit their students if adcoms made note of it. I imagine schools at and below the average levels wouldn't provide it and would benefit from that. Pretty sure some schools already do their own analyses to this sort of effect like the one (name escapes me) that adds points depending on your undergrad.

We know its a gradient where odds of success increase with better numbers, but that's not the most relevant info since top schools are selective way beyond the point of very likely to succeed anyways

Yes, it's my understanding as well that preparedness is binary rather than a gradient for the purpose of admissions.

If that's true, what's the point of saying a 3.3 from Wash U is better or as good as a 3.9 from Kutztown? If both exceed the binary level of competency and it has been shown that Wash U students to perfectly well with lower than average GPAs in MD admissions, what else needs to be done?
 
I don't have experience at washu, but I can say that Stanford grading depends heavily on department.....I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Even within a school one can take easier classes, boot their GPA in different ways....
 
I don't have experience at washu, but I can say that Stanford grading depends heavily on department.....I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Even within a school one can take easier classes, boot their GPA in different ways....
Oh I agree that this is more nuanced.
Top 30 Undergrad vs. State School: My Firsthand Experience
However, generally speaking, some schools are more grade deflating than others. Why is it that we often hear students from Wash U, Princeton, Chicago, etc complain about grades? I have yet to see a "Brown/Stanford obliterated my gpa" post.
 
@Lucca because with a +0.6 you'd have less people getting weeded out (~2/3 attrition rate as it is) and people with low 3's would be competitive for considerably more selective schools.

@Cyberdyne 101 to be fair we don't see lots from Hopkins or Berkeley or Cornell so I wouldn't read into that too much. Nobody has ever said As on an A- median are easy against brilliant students...just much easier than on a B/B- median against brilliant students.
 
@Lucca because with a +0.6 you'd have less people getting weeded out (~2/3 attrition rate as it is) and people with low 3's would be competitive for considerably more selective schools.

@Cyberdyne 101 to be fair we don't see lots from Hopkins or Berkeley or Cornell so I wouldn't read into that too much. Nobody has ever said As on an A- median are easy against brilliant students...just much easier than on a B/B- median against brilliant students.

Sure, but since there are only so many med school seats then the barrier to entry is just that much higher for students unable or unwilling to go to more selective, prestigious or deflationary institutions. High school would become the first place where people start getting weeded out for medical school and do you really want to live in a world where that is the reality?
 
If you love the university and you can afford it then by all means attend. Never saw the reason for going 100s of thousands in debt for undergraduate. I have a few friends who did it for just the name and never even checked out the university. Not the best decision in my opinion. I personally took a year of university which was nice but not worth the money and transferred to a community college.
 
If you go to a high end university keep in mind public colleges might hold bias against you. Oh this person went to there and they are applying here the nerve?!? It is bs but it does happen.
 
If you go to a high end university keep in mind public colleges might hold bias against you. Oh this person went to there and they are applying here the nerve?!? It is bs but it does happen.
Uh, after keeping my mouth shut for this entire thread even after holding very strong opinions on the issue, I just now have to say that I don't think this is true... speaking as a person coming from a "high end university" who applied to and had many colleagues apply to public colleges.
 
I wouldn't suggest stressing yourself over society's over-exaggerated standards of 'prestige.' It would be rational to think that medical schools would prefer a hard-working student at a less known uni over a more laid-back student at Harvard.

It is rational to think that. But it's considerably harder when you're talking about two hard-working students, one at less known uni and one at MIT, where the one at the less known uni has a higher GPA because he/she faces less rigorous competition.

However, generally speaking, some schools are more grade deflating than others. Why is it that we often hear students from Wash U, Princeton, Chicago, etc complain about grades? I have yet to see a "Brown/Stanford obliterated my gpa" post.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with this (that's a first, I know). Differential grading systems even among the top schools is a huge issue. A 3.5 from Princeton may be similar, in terms of effort needed, to a 3.7 from Harvard, especially since Princeton grades to a B+ and Harvard grades to an A- and that's the biggest jump (0.4) you can make in GPA.
 
I agree but this premed game even real life anyway?

Surprisingly, yes! We would all love a world based on merit where if you do well, you will succeed. But the real world is more complicated. People less qualified than you might get the job you want because they had connections or they came from a university with connections or, the double whammy, going to that university gave them connections. Or, they might just have personal/family connections. That's how life works. Everybody got where they are today because they knew somebody who knew somebody.
 
I care. And admissions deans care from what I hear at info sessions. That's probably the third time I mentioned that. But those are admissions deans from the top schools who say that.



Average isn't a B at Harvard 😉 Harvard grades to an A-, at most B+, curve.


From what I recall state schools are typically B average, and Harvard is typically A- average (most common grade being an A). However, I don't think that this is evidence that there is grade inflation at Harvard.

What about the cases in which people can't afford to go to rigorous undergrads? I'm not talking about poor people either necessarily but what if your family makes 120k combined income in Nyc la SF etc. and can't afford to help you out in college?

Are you going to take out 150k+ to go to MIT or are you going to go to a state school for 10k a year?

Ok so you go to the state school and get a 4.0, but under this new system that is at best a 3.3 from an elite institution? I don't buy it. You just hit the ceiling that's all.

In the end your GPA is really a small part of the story. I'm thankful to have had any acceptances but my LizzyM is 10 points higher than the average for the school I'm likely going to attend and that's because I couldn't get enough clinical experience. I love the school other than that, but if I had more clinical I'd likely have a scholarship etc.

If I had to say whether or not undergrad matters I would say yes, only because going to a small school without a big hospital nearby will drastically limit your ability to get clinical experience. This is far more important than .2 GPA.
 
Sure, but since there are only so many med school seats then the barrier to entry is just that much higher for students unable or unwilling to go to more selective, prestigious or deflationary institutions. High school would become the first place where people start getting weeded out for medical school and do you really want to live in a world where that is the reality?

I'd rather see the stakes for college admissions increase than continue to have some of the nations most brilliant students punished in the premed game for surrounding themselves with other brilliant students. How it aught to be viewed/what a GPA demonstrates is what falls out from the numbers not what feels the most comfortable/fair for high schoolers or those financially restricted to State.
 
I'd rather see the stakes for college admissions increase than continue to have some of the nations most brilliant students punished in the premed game for surrounding themselves with other brilliant students. How it aught to be viewed/what a GPA demonstrates is what falls out from the numbers not what feels the most comfortable/fair for high schoolers or those financially restricted to State.

By most brilliant do you mean wealthiest because that's the best predictor for high school and college success. Unless by brilliance you mean high school ECs, legacy status, and SAT + GPA (All of which are determined by wealth).

It is one thing to say one school deflates and another does not or inflates. It is another thing entirely to say that the quality of one's undergraduate institution is directly correlated with one's intelligence to the point that it should be a determining factor in admissions.
 
@Lucca nice try. By brilliant I mean highest performing on the metrics selected by college admissions. Whether those metrics are valid and allow wealth to substitute for abiliy is another argument entirely. For the discussion were having here we are already assuming that the metrics (MCAT and GPA) measure what they're supposed to - you'd just have the same for undergrad.

(On a side note I agree with you that its far from a pure meritocracy at the undergrad level, but I do believe the student bodies at Top 20s are still more academically gifted on average than at a typical uni. If you control for income Id wager the middle and lower class students, though fewer proportionally, still are more qualified at the top schools).
 
What about the cases in which people can't afford to go to rigorous undergrads? I'm not talking about poor people either necessarily but what if your family makes 120k combined income in Nyc la SF etc. and can't afford to help you out in college?

Are you going to take out 150k+ to go to MIT or are you going to go to a state school for 10k a year?
This argument isn't really valid. States school in NY would run about 22k/year and it is much harder to get financial aid there. My parents couldn't afford to help me pay for school, so going to a top school where I was given 50k/year in financial aid grants was my best option.

As a UChicago grad, the only problem I have with the fact that there isn't much of a grade boost with admissions is that a lot of my 3.3 bio majors friends doing their PhDs ended up at schools like Yale, Stanford, UPenn, NYU, etc. They are on the path to become med school professors at top med schools if they so choose. I just find it a little weird that a 3.3 from a top school is more likely to allow you to teach medicine at a top school than it is to allow you to be the one learning it at any med school.
 
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