Does "URM" carry any weight in DO?

[Brigade4Radiant]

How does that even compare to DO schools? DO schools still take the best of their applicant pool, they just don't have applicants with the higher stats that MD schools do.



Aren't we talking about med school here? So, yes, the Asian bit is for the med school process. Don't be an idiot.

I hate to burst your bubble, but those poor black inner city youths aren't the ones that are typically applying to medical school. If you really want to fix this problem it's not adjusting MCAT and GPA scores, it's addressing the societal issues of these impoverished ghettos that most try to ignore and pretend don't even exist. Most of the kids from real ghettos, as you describe them, don't even know what medical school is. High school is a pipe dream for most of them and you're telling me this is who the biased stats are for? Give me a break. Now if this were the reality of the situation, I would be more in favor of it because that is a true struggle, but it's not.

There are applicants who apply to D.O schools as back ups and don't go if they get accepted into a MD school.

You do know that many schools factor in economic status in the application. And you do know that there are D.O schools. Way to drop the ball sparky. Also economic outcome and race are highly correlated hence why its pretty stupid to say "poor" asians have it the worst. If they don't get into an M.D schools are they suddenly blocked from D.O schools

Hahaha you are an idiot. What you are suggesting is a huge overall of the system and where do you suggest getting money to do this remolding? You are saying the same feel good response everyone says but you might as well say eliminate poverty. Since your argument applies to economic status as well genius.

These polices that ADCOMs take to fix the issue but they do help address it.


And are you implying that blacks who apply to medschool are rich and screw over the poor whites that try to apply? Why do poor whites apply if you say that poor blacks don't? Those poor black inner city youths aren't the ones applying because of what? So why would poor asians apply at all? And given what you said wouldn't poor blacks have it the worst if highschool is a "pipe-dream?"

Oh wait you are making $*$* up. Yes a few "rich" blacks are pre-med but how do you know that they are the ones with low stats? Look at the graph you posted a good portion of URMs score over 30.

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[Brigade4Radiant]

You seem to be delusional. If you think a rich black kid understands anything that poor black kids in the ghetto go through I don't think you can be considered of sound mind. A good example would be Obama. He is from a wealthy family and went to private schools all his life then got an ivy league education. He is so far removed from the poor of any race that he can't even begin to understand them beyond what is in books and short conversations. An affluent person regardless of race has far more resources than the economically disadvantaged of any race. There is no such thing as "the black population" there're rich and poor who happen to be black just as there are rich and poor that happen to be white. Both of those classes are VERY different. I would wager the poor black kids get discriminated against all the time in ways that effect them greatly, but the wealthy black kids, on the whole, see no meaningful discrimination. It's not a question of race that should necessitate help it's a question of circumstance. It should e about helping those that need it not those that don't.

A "rich" black kid and a poor "black" kid are still black they might not relate to much but both face racism. Racism is based on race not money hence why classism and racism are two different things.

Wow the BS meter rings really high on this post. Obama wasn't born to a rich family. His mother had a PHD and he was able to go to a large private school because they had a mission statement. Obama also faced issues on his race and used drugs during his teenage years. Also maybe its just a coincidence that Obama is facing more death threats than any modern president?


Please tell me how the wealthy black kids are as well off as the wealthy white kids. And where are all these wealthy black kids in the application process? Can you link me to some stats?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

You seem to be delusional. If you think a rich black kid understands anything that poor black kids in the ghetto go through I don't think you can be considered of sound mind. A good example would be Obama. He is from a wealthy family and went to private schools all his life then got an ivy league education. He is so far removed from the poor of any race that he can't even begin to understand them beyond what is in books and short conversations. An affluent person regardless of race has far more resources than the economically disadvantaged of any race. There is no such thing as "the black population" there're rich and poor who happen to be black just as there are rich and poor that happen to be white. Both of those classes are VERY different. I would wager the poor black kids get discriminated against all the time in ways that effect them greatly, but the wealthy black kids, on the whole, see no meaningful discrimination. It's not a question of race that should necessitate help it's a question of circumstance. It should e about helping those that need it not those that don't.

Nevermind...the previous posters explained it better LOL

 

[Dharma]

I live in San Francisco and can easily tell you that you're full of **** when you say that big cities don't give a hoot about race. Call us liberal all you want. Just confirms we're on the side of reality.

On the real, most people just go about their lives in NYC dude. This is one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet (if not THE most, especially here in BK and Queens) and for the most part, people are just doing their thing here. Yeah, there are most definitely issues that need addressing and racism still exists, but not one of these problems will be ever be answered by giving people leeway or keeping them from something because of their skin color. The liberal agenda just blows things way out of proportion.

And seriously, most people here in NY could give a $#!+ about race. The biggest issues and protests that arise here concern poverty.

 

[Dharma]

"...until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes - everywhere is war..."

 

[PunkmedGirl]

On the real, most people just go about their lives in NYC dude. This is one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet (if not THE most, especially here in BK and Queens) and for the most part, people are just doing their thing here. Yeah, there are most definitely issues that need addressing and racism still exists, but not one of these problems will be ever be answered by giving people leeway or keeping them from something because of their skin color. The liberal agenda just blows things way out of proportion.

And seriously, most people here in NY could give a $#!+ about race. The biggest issues and protests that arise here concern poverty.

It's unfortunate that the whole US is not New York.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

"...until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes - everywhere is war..."

You keep quoting this but do you really know what it means?

 

[gatorfann14]

.

 

[Dharma]

Then you haven't looked into it enough. I actually live in the most diverse city. The apparent "nobody gives a ****"" is just an illusion. I hear countless racial slurs in private conversations or racist jokes. Same goes for sexism and homophobia despite being the most gay friendly city in the world.

The reporter Quiñones made a racial experiment news item just weeks ago in NY. They grabbed a black person and had them be discriminated in front of people inside a store. White people overwhelmingly ignored it. One ******* when asked about it said "let me guess? she pulled the race card?" when he was told it was an experiment he said "oh, I felt so bad for her. I didn't know what to do." Minorities stood up for minorities. When a person is white and getting poor treatment, it is much more likely that ALL races will participate to defend.

Get a clue about reality instead of just looking at the smoke screen.

Okay dude. You're a joke. You don't live here; you don't know what goes on here on a daily basis. I know racism is a problem and it needs to be addressed. No is saying it doesn't happen. It happens. But you know what, it has really taken a back seat to other issues here, because we're getting better on the racist front. Seriously man. Now that doesn't mean it should be ignored or forgotten. It just means that things are getting better. I see a lot of brotherhood and sisterhood going down on the regular here and it makes me smile. People in this city unite. Yeah, there are the DBs who still go on with their racist ways and their banter, but you know what happens when these people try to bring their racists ways? They get singled out. Ever been on a subway car where someone makes a racial remark in NYC? Probably not. I have. People stand up! People speak their minds. Most just don't go about their day and ignore. Step on a subway car in NYC and you will see people of all walks, all demographics, all types of classes doing their thing. It ain't perfect, but you know what, we are getting to the point where racism is not the problem it used to be.

It ain't perfect, but it's definitely a great example. You don't know my city brotha.

Peace

 

[PunkmedGirl]

So he was in Indonesia from early life until he was 10. I don't think he got any understanding of the black people in south central while he was there. And then he came back and was going to a college prep school. I dot know about you but I don't know too many poor people that can afford that. He clearly understands what it's like to live in the ghetto. His parents also had doctorates like you said, and that's a HUGE part of why poor people need help. The rich and educated place a premium on education, inner city parents generally don't share their sentiment.

What does that have to do with him being a black man experiencing racism/discrimination? How do you know he never got an understanding of the black people?

Being poor doesn't mean you unable to recieve an higher education.

 

[gatorfann14]

.

 

[Dharma]

You keep quoting this but do you really know what it means?

Do you? (Yes, originally the words of Hallie Sellasse and written during a time of strife and violence in Angolo).

Regardless of the context the words were originally written in, people need to understand that racism will only end when we people stop putting so much emphasis on it. If you cannot see this, then there really is no point trying to explain. As long as one's race is a factor in any decision making process, racism will ensue.

On that note, I'm out.

Peace.

 

[gatorfann14]

.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Do you? (Yes, originally the words of Hallie Sellasse and written during a time of strife and violence in Angolo).

Regardless of the context the words were originally written in, people need to understand that racism will only end when we people stop putting so much emphasis on it. If you cannot see this, then there really is no point trying to explain. As long as one's race is a factor in any decision making process, racism will ensue.

On that note, I'm out.

Peace.

Really, all we need to do is ignore racism and eventually it will end? Interesting. I would have never imagine that the answer to all of experiences with racism/discrimination/assults would end by just simply ignoring it. Uhm. I think I will try that some time.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Are you a minority is not a meaningful questions. Questions like how much of your financial support is provided by your parents, did you take an mcat prep course, do you support anyone besides yourself. Those are the questions to ask and when they do it will still help mostly minorities because unfortunately that's who falls into those groups most often, but the undeserving will no longer be helped and the ones that deserve it will be left.

These things don't make you economically disadvantaged.

 

[Dharma]

Really, all we need to do is ignore racism and eventually it will end? Interesting. I would have never imagine that the answer to all of experiences with racism/discrimination/assults would end by just simply ignoring it. Uhm. I think I will try that some time.

Wow! Ignore? You really don't understand what I am saying. How well did you do on the VR section of the MCAT?

 

[Dharma]

My bad. I could see where the misunderstanding could have arisen there. I meant to say that we need to stop putting so much emphasis on race (not racism). Sorry.

Okay, I'm really done here now. (Promise).

-Out!

 

[PunkmedGirl]

My bad. I could see where the misunderstanding could have arisen there. I meant to say that we need to stop putting so much emphasis on race (not racism). Sorry.

Okay, I'm really done here now. (Promise).

-Out!

Still don't agree completely, but whatever.

 

[gatorfann14]

.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

So he was in Indonesia from early life until he was 10. I don't think he got any understanding of the black people in south central while he was there. And then he came back and was going to a college prep school. I dot know about you but I don't know too many poor people that can afford that. He clearly understands what it's like to live in the ghetto. His parents also had doctorates like you said, and that's a HUGE part of why poor people need help. The rich and educated place a premium on education, inner city parents generally don't share their sentiment.

This is the reason ADCOMs have policies like these because Obama's grandparents couldn't do it either. OMG GASP LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!


Wow you have NO idea what you are talking about.

You do know Obama's mother had "shamed" her family for marrying a black man. And that Obama's father died soon also there were black people at his school. OMG he even played basketball and was called Barry O'Bomber

This is where Obama's grandmother lived. His grandmother was a vice president of a small local bank but she still needed a scholarship to send Obama to a private school since they couldn't afford to send him to one. Also Obama's grandmother never got a college degree.

His step father was in the army and his mother was a weaver and didn't get her PH.D until 1992. Also she also divorced her second husband. Obama was never rich. Hell his mother was raising him when she was in college since she gave birth to Obama at eighteen.

I guess if a black person doesn't grow up in abject poverty and grew up in the same economic condition as middle to lower middle class they are considered "rich".

Please get your facts straight or stop posting.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

In what way do experiencing all of those things and more not make you disadvantaged?

1. Not having financial support from your parents during college doesn't mean that your economically disadvantaged.
2. You don't need a MCAT prep course in order to get good score on the exam. Want vs Need
3. Depends on who you are supporting. Younger bro/sis/grandma/pa because parents are deceased/addicted to narcotics vs supporting you're BF/GF because they don't want to get a job. And I'm still not 100% percent sure that would be economically disadvantage, maybe some sort of hardship would apply to this situation.

 

[gatorfann14]

.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

It is but I didn't feel it was right to bring personal situations in as examples. My point is that it's not race that matters, it's the 5 million things that work against MANY minorities that are what matter and simply asking one question neglects to take any of that into account.

I didn't read your story. But could you please explain to me why race does NOT matter and how your anecdote demonstrates this and counteracts the vast amount of empirical evidence that says race does matter?

 

[JamesLMT]

Let me preface this post by saying that his thread has gotten way out of hand. It was about URM status of DO schools and now you are talking about Obama...

@Dharma: First of all. I agree with Dharma. Every time something happens to a Hispanic here in Arizona, it's about race, it's a hate crime. It's because Hispanics keep pulling there racism card every single time ANYTHING happens to them even if the motive was not racism. By doing this they are in a way separating themselves from other races increasing racism. Should hate crimes be punished? Yes. Should EVERY SINGLE attack against a Hispanic by another race be considered a hate crime? NO. But this is how things are right now.

@Punkmed: Second of all punkmed, your points make me laugh. You keep saying that a rich black kid = poor black kid in terms of resources for pre-med education? Really? You think that a rich black kid who got to go to a nice suburb school, was able to buy his books, was able to take kaplan prep courses, was able to pay for tutoring, didn't have to work to put himself through high school or support his family, and didn't have to constantly worry about his next meal. You are telling me that that person has the SAME resources as the poor black kid in the ghetto? You say they have the "SAME hurdles to jump over?" Really?

MCAT Score, Grades, Volunteering, Shadowing, etc are all determined by the amount of effort and money you can afford to put into them (and of course a little by our born abilities, yes.) Yes there might be a slight influence with race, but unless the MCAT is racist, the wealthy will have more resources and time, and less worry to spend on their education.

@Gatorfann: I believe you hit the nail on the head. We cannot say oh he is black/hispanic/asian and therefore he has X set of qualities and difficulties because of his race. Should it be something to consider? Yes. Should it be the SOUL DETERMINING FACTOR in allowing a person of different races in? No.


All I am trying to say is what has been said by those that have posted before me. Judge one on his merits. Judge him on his character. Judge him on his ability. Do not just say, oh look we need more diversity, take the top black kid whose stats are still below our minimum cutoffs.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that the whole URM view needs to be reworked. Make it a truly holistic total application approach. Consider the economically challenged status, consider the medically underserved status, consider race (but don't make it the key factor, nor assume that the the color comes with any set of predetermined values).

Going back to the original post. URM status does carry weight in DO schools, but it's not the same "get in free card" that others have used it for. Just don't say "Im black, I deserve medical school more than that white kid, because you have no clue to where that "white kid's" life has taken him.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

@Punkmed: Second of all punkmed, your points make me laugh. You keep saying that a rich black kid = poor black kid in terms of resources for pre-med education? Really? You think that a rich black kid who got to go to a nice suburb school, was able to buy his books, was able to take kaplan prep courses, was able to pay for tutoring, didn't have to work to put himself through high school or support his family, and didn't have to constantly worry about his next meal. You are telling me that that person has the SAME resources as the poor black kid in the ghetto? You say they have the "SAME hurdles to jump over?" Really?

First off you need to go back reread what I wrote because that is NOT what I stated in my response to you. What does a rich black kid and a poor black kid have in common?? THEIR BLACK! What they have in common has nothing to do with money or the things they can buy and everything to do with the skin they wear around daily. You can have all the money in the world and it won't change how some people will view you. It won't change the fact that some of the opportunities that you have available to you will be a constant struggle to obtain. Don't get me wrong there are many examples of extraordinary African Americans/Hispanics who have prevailed against all odds, but you can't tell me for one second that they didn't face obstacles, disadvantages, discriminations, and racism. Because if you do, then it is you my dear who isn't in touch with reality. If you don't understand that then I suggest you take a social society class in order to get what you clearly are not comprehending.




All I am trying to say is what has been said by those that have posted before me. Judge one on his merits. Judge him on his character. Judge him on his ability. Do not just say, oh look we need more diversity, take the top black kid whose stats are still below our minimum cutoffs.

The top black kid isn't going to have the bare minimum cutoff.



Going back to the original post. URM status does carry weight in DO schools, but it's not the same "get in free card" that others have used it for. Just don't say "Im black, I deserve medical school more than that white kid, because you have no clue to where that "white kid's" life has taken him.

The OP, wasn't suggesting this in no way shape or form. He/She asked a question about diversity because he observed that there were little to no Hispanics/Blacks at Western. From there everyone else assumed that he was asking, "Can I get into Western even though my GPA is 2.1 and I have a 5 MCAT?" He was asking a diversity question but everybody assumed he was asking can I get into a DO school because I'm URM.

.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Let me preface this post by saying that his thread has gotten way out of hand. It was about URM status of DO schools and now you are talking about Obama...

@Dharma: First of all. I agree with Dharma. Every time something happens to a Hispanic here in Arizona, it's about race, it's a hate crime. It's because Hispanics keep pulling there racism card every single time ANYTHING happens to them even if the motive was not racism. By doing this they are in a way separating themselves from other races increasing racism. Should hate crimes be punished? Yes. Should EVERY SINGLE attack against a Hispanic by another race be considered a hate crime? NO. But this is how things are right now.

@Punkmed: Second of all punkmed, your points make me laugh. You keep saying that a rich black kid = poor black kid in terms of resources for pre-med education? Really? You think that a rich black kid who got to go to a nice suburb school, was able to buy his books, was able to take kaplan prep courses, was able to pay for tutoring, didn't have to work to put himself through high school or support his family, and didn't have to constantly worry about his next meal. You are telling me that that person has the SAME resources as the poor black kid in the ghetto? You say they have the "SAME hurdles to jump over?" Really?

MCAT Score, Grades, Volunteering, Shadowing, etc are all determined by the amount of effort and money you can afford to put into them (and of course a little by our born abilities, yes.) Yes there might be a slight influence with race, but unless the MCAT is racist, the wealthy will have more resources and time, and less worry to spend on their education.

@Gatorfann: I believe you hit the nail on the head. We cannot say oh he is black/hispanic/asian and therefore he has X set of qualities and difficulties because of his race. Should it be something to consider? Yes. Should it be the SOUL DETERMINING FACTOR in allowing a person of different races in? No.


All I am trying to say is what has been said by those that have posted before me. Judge one on his merits. Judge him on his character. Judge him on his ability. Do not just say, oh look we need more diversity, take the top black kid whose stats are still below our minimum cutoffs.

The point on Obama was brought up because the guy who you say "hit the nail on the head" said that Obama was one of those "rich" black kids who has nothing in common with poor minorities. Even though he has been proven wrong.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that the whole URM view needs to be reworked. Make it a truly holistic total application approach. Consider the economically challenged status, consider the medically underserved status, consider race (but don't make it the key factor, nor assume that the the color comes with any set of predetermined values).

Going back to the original post. URM status does carry weight in DO schools, but it's not the same "get in free card" that others have used it for. Just don't say "Im black, I deserve medical school more than that white kid, because you have no clue to where that "white kid's" life has taken him.

On your first point way to stereotype. ALL HISPANICS ALWAYS USE THE RACE CARD.

And then you say medschools take the top black kid who is below their cutoffs. What the hell are you talking about. If a student is below the cutoff they don't get accepted. Going by AMCAS facts there are white and asian kids who get in with with a 14 MCAT and a 3.0. If URM status does factor in DO schools it doesn't matter much since only 2% of D.O students are URMS and schools like Pike have an overall MCAT avg of 22.

No one ever said race was the soul determining factor. People who are of a certain race face racism hence why ADCOMs have the policy. Why do you think its a key factor?

Just don't say "I'm white, I deserve medical school more than those URMs that got in with lower scores because you have no clue to where that "black kid's life has taken him."

Also its pretty stupid to think that the "rich" blacks are not the ones who have high stats in the chart table.

The picture that you are painting isn't what most posters are discussing and Medschools do take the hole person in account its just that race gives a little leeway with stats. If they didn't think they could do the material then they wouldn't be accepted. But of course you in your pre-med wisdom know more than the ADCOMs.

Its also pretty funny how you are trying to be the voice of reason but say that all hispanics use the race card and that the top black kid is still below the minimum cutoff for medschool.

Most posters that are against AA wouldn't make such stupid statements.

 

[JamesLMT]

Punk, and I quote... "I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that minorities (specifically blacks and hispanics) will have the same disadvantages or huddles to jump over regardless of the amount of money they have in the bank."

Mmmkay... The point I am trying to make is that they WILL not have the same disadvantages. Yes, regarding racism, but the poor have added so many more economical disadvantages. They have racism, yes. But the poor have all those other disadvantages that the rich or well connected don't... Lol take a social society class? I'm sorry but I have lived the poor life "in the ghetto" no I wasn't black but most of my friends were. I saw first hand what is going on. Please don't speak from such a high horse.

Your second quip... It was just something i was throwing around, not literal.

And your third quip, He was asking if URM carried any weight. I answered that question. Simmer down. I never said anything about low stats... Moving on.


@Brigade... Yes I will generalize because it happens alot....

Lawl, the whole statement about the top black kid with low stats... It was meant that if you took a eliminated race and JUST looked at stats, who would they take with everything equal except one applicant has a higher MCAT and GPA.... Who would they take? The black kid will get special treatment knowing he is black with the current setup..

And i never stated that "the "rich" blacks are not the ones who have high stats in the chart table." Put words in my mouth some more please.

 

[JamesLMT]

You're making insulting you very appealing, and ironically, you're making a racist statement by making a claim of all Hispanics. I'm Hispanic and have never "pulled the race card" on anything. Just because I'm aware of what happens doesn't make me someone pulling any card. I have never asked for preferential treatment.

Please, insult me, it would just lower my opinion of you...

Forgive me for speaking in absolutes, it obviously ticks people off. replace always with many times... maybe that will settle well for the A Types.

 

[JamesLMT]

On your first point way to stereotype. ALL HISPANICS ALWAYS USE THE RACE CARD.

And then you say medschools take the top black kid who is below their cutoffs. What the hell are you talking about. If a student is below the cutoff they don't get accepted. Going by AMCAS facts there are white and asian kids who get in with with a 14 MCAT and a 3.0. If URM status does factor in DO schools it doesn't matter much since only 2% of D.O students are URMS and schools like Pike have an overall MCAT avg of 22.

No one ever said race was the soul determining factor. People who are of a certain race face racism hence why ADCOMs have the policy. Why do you think its a key factor?

Just don't say "I'm white, I deserve medical school more than those URMs that got in with lower scores because you have no clue to where that "black kid's life has taken him."

Also its pretty stupid to think that the "rich" blacks are not the ones who have high stats in the chart table.

The picture that you are painting isn't what most posters are discussing and Medschools do take the hole person in account its just that race gives a little leeway with stats. If they didn't think they could do the material then they wouldn't be accepted. But of course you in your pre-med wisdom know more than the ADCOMs.

Its also pretty funny how you are trying to be the voice of reason but say that all hispanics use the race card and that the top black kid is still below the minimum cutoff for medschool.

Most posters that are against AA wouldn't make such stupid statements.

Man now I have to quote you because you keep changing your post.
Both you and TPM... It was wrong of me to use absolutes, forgive me for that, I will not make that mistake again in the future, please replace all with many times and below with around... feel better?
By the way..." But of course you in your pre-med wisdom know more than the ADCOMs." Mmmhmmm... when insults start to get thrown around, reason gives way to emotion. I will not debate anymore on that level.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Punk, and I quote... "I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that minorities (specifically blacks and hispanics) will have the same disadvantages or huddles to jump over regardless of the amount of money they have in the bank."

Mmmkay... The point I am trying to make is that they WILL not have the same disadvantages. Yes, regarding racism, but the poor have added so many more economical disadvantages. They have racism, yes. But the poor have all those other disadvantages that the rich or well connected don't... Lol take a social society class? I'm sorry but I have lived the poor life "in the ghetto" no I wasn't black but most of my friends were. I saw first hand what is going on. Please don't speak from such a high horse.

Your second quip... It was just something i was throwing around, not literal.

And your third quip, He was asking if URM carried any weight. I answered that question. Simmer down. I never said anything about low stats... Moving on.


@Brigade... Yes I will generalize because it happens alot....

Lawl, the whole statement about the top black kid with low stats... It was meant that if you took a eliminated race and JUST looked at stats, who would they take with everything equal except one applicant has a higher MCAT and GPA.... Who would they take? The black kid will get special treatment knowing he is black with the current setup..

And i never stated that "the "rich" blacks are not the ones who have high stats in the chart table." Put words in my mouth some more please.

It depends on how much higher. The black kid gets the treatment in this case because of all the reasons I quoted in above. Blacks were not allowed to attend medschool in the until about 50 years ago and again you example fails because there are just as many whites who get in with stats that are on the low end. The percentage of blacks is higher for social reasons.

If your little generalization was true at all there wouldn't be any ORMs who get in with lower stats but empirical evidence shows that there are thousands of them.

And I don't have to put words in your mouth since you back track on statements and the explanations that you give don't make a lick of sense. You are being insulted because you are posting stupid crap. Let me send you off with your own quote of you shoving words on the OP.


"Going back to the original post. URM status does carry weight in DO schools, but it's not the same "get in free card" that others have used it for. Just don't say "Im black, I deserve medical school more than that white kid, because you have no clue to where that "white kid's" life has taken him."

 

[JamesLMT]

Why would I care about making a difference of your opinion on me (either positive or negative)?

It's pretty sad how passionate you are about this. You ever thought that maybe some people pull the race card because many people are racists like you?

Yes, I am so racist. I attend KKK meetings, I yell racial slurs at the top of my lungs, you know all that stuff....

You know what is sad, the fact you think I am racist... I work hard for equality. EQUALITY MEANING EQUAL, not preferential treatment to anyone. I come from a disadvantaged background, and I get upset when people pull their race cards or social status cards. Thanks for the name calling btw, I hope it gives you pleasure.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Man now I have to quote you because you keep changing your post.
Both you and TPM... It was wrong of me to use absolutes, forgive me for that, I will not make that mistake again in the future, please replace all with many times and below with around... feel better?
By the way..." But of course you in your pre-med wisdom know more than the ADCOMs." Mmmhmmm... when insults start to get thrown around, reason gives way to emotion. I will not debate anymore on that level.

Yes because the top black is is around the minimum cutoffs for the hypothetical medschool of yours.

Then you make some bs argument saying that the original comment was that if two students had around equal everything but if the other guy was higher then URMs would be accepted.

You shouldn't debate more on your level. Because your posts are all emotional.

And what point are you trying to make about being from a disadvantaged background? You do know that gives you preferential treatment right?

Well thats nice and jolly that you work hard for equality but not everyone gets the same treatment hence is life. If you hate when people pull their social/race cards why did you pull out yours?

 

[JamesLMT]

It depends on how much higher. The black kid gets the treatment in this case because of all the reasons I quoted in above. Blacks were not allowed to attend medschool in the until about 50 years ago and again you example fails because there are just as many whites who get in with stats that are on the low end. The percentage of blacks is higher for social reasons.

If your little generalization was true at all there wouldn't be any ORMs who get in with lower stats but empirical evidence shows that there are thousands of them.

And I don't have to put words in your mouth since you back track on statements and the explanations that you give don't make a lick of sense. You are being insulted because you are posting stupid crap. Let me send you off with your own quote of you shoving words on the OP.


"Going back to the original post. URM status does carry weight in DO schools, but it's not the same "get in free card" that others have used it for. Just don't say "Im black, I deserve medical school more than that white kid, because you have no clue to where that "white kid's" life has taken him."

You bore me... I remember why I don't get involved with arguments on the web... Thanks for sending me off...

 

[JamesLMT]

Look, I am glad that you guys like to team up and attack anyone with a differing viewpoint but really...

All I am trying to state is that YES, URM status matters in DO schools. I am also trying to state that I don't agree with all the resolutions of URM status. The reason I state that am disadvantaged is because I can speak first hand. Also, I don't run around using my sob story to get into schools or get breaks. If I made my bed I lie in it. I just have to try that much harder. So what, maybe you guys could pick apart all my semantics, my verbiage, etc. Congratulations. You win the debate. I am just trying to speak from a different angle. All I see is defense of the URM as is... that is it. No racism, no preferential treatment, I do not want any of that. I am not for any of that. I don't see how my posts are out of emotion, I am not the one calling names like you guys are.

 

[JamesLMT]

Yes, I do actively believe you're a racist. I've known many racists during my time and you fit the pattern. Mind you that I have not called a single person beside you a racist even if their opinion is contrary to mine. It's easy to distinguish between someone who has a different opinion and someone that is passionate.

Let me guess, you want preferential treatment for being disadvantaged? Why? It's not the rich kids fault that they got a 4.0 45MCAT from Harvard. How do we know that you would have gotten the same thing as a rich kid? Because you were poor? We all know that medicine is about scholastics only and nothing about your background and potential to the field of medicine.

Believe what you must, if it gets you though to the end of your day. I think I have stated many times that the reason I am arguing from my point of view is that I really don't like when people pull their cards. Thanks again for the unneeded comments at the end of your post.

 

[Chevy Chase Fan]

James by unanimous decision imo.

 

[JamesLMT]

Look, I am glad that you guys like to team up and attack anyone with a differing viewpoint but really...

All I am trying to state is that YES, URM status matters in DO schools. I am also trying to state that I don't agree with all the resolutions of URM status. The reason I state that am disadvantaged is because I can speak first hand. Also, I don't run around using my sob story to get into schools or get breaks. If I made my bed I lie in it. I just have to try that much harder. So what, maybe you guys could pick apart all my semantics, my verbiage, etc. Congratulations. You win the debate. I am just trying to speak from a different angle. All I see is defense of the URM as is... that is it. No racism, no preferential treatment, I do not want any of that. I am not for any of that. I don't see how my posts are out of emotion, I am not the one calling names like you guys are.

Again I reiterate so we can de-escalate this back down to a discussion, not an emotional tirade session.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

James, I have no ill-will or hard feelings towards you and I sincerely hope that you get into the medical school of your choice.

The point I'm trying to make is what's the difference between a URM who has been disadvantaged socially, educationally, financially vs an economically disadvantaged applicant? Nothing they have both been slighted by our society in trying to gain a success life for themselves and their families. A rich black kid and poor black kid do share COMMON disadvantages in life, the poorer kids plight is no more bigger than the rich kids plight. It seems to me that you can see past what the rich kid can afford and truly understand the social injustices they may face at school. Yes, the PBK has a lot on his plate as well, but I just need you to understand that money isn't going to lessen the RBK's problems anymore than the rich kids.

 

[DbDan]

Can't we all just.... get along...

The simple answer would have just been yes it matters but for whatever reason it seems not as much as our allo counterparts. Personal issues aside, thats just the way it is.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Believe what you must, if it gets you though to the end of your day. I think I have stated many times that the reason I am arguing from my point of view is that I really don't like when people pull their cards. Thanks again for the unneeded comments at the end of your post.

No body is pulling the race card but those who are accusing URMs of doing so. Some minorities, including myself at one point, are not comfortable with putting ourselves out there without having a security blanket, ie other minorities who can relate to how we feel.

Example: I grew in SC all of my life and was around racism all of my life. They had KKK parades down our "section" of town when I was little. I remember seeing a real hanging of a black man because of some stupid argument he had with a white man and this was in the 1997. I went to a school that segregrated us socially even though segregation was outlawed decades ago. I remember getting tests back from some of my high school professors where the answers were marked wrong, but were actually right. I remember feeling like what is the purpose of me studying when all I know that I won't get higher than a C on the test.

I didn't grow up rich, but we weren't poor. I had all the advantages that my mom and dad would afford me, but yet still I was made to be feel like a worthless twit.

Now, I'm not saying everyone experiences this or anything like this but it does still exist. What I'm trying to say is don't assume that because their "rich" BK that their struggles are no bigger than a poor black kid.

 

[JamesLMT]

James, I have no ill-will or hard feelings towards you and I sincerely hope that you get into the medical school of your choice.

The point I'm trying to make is what's the difference between a URM who has been disadvantaged socially, educationally, financially vs an economically disadvantaged applicant? Nothing they have both been slighted by our society in trying to gain a success life for themselves and their families. A rich black kid and poor black kid do share COMMON disadvantages in life, the poorer kids plight is no more bigger than the rich kids plight. It seems to me that you can see past what the rich kid can afford and truly understand the social injustices they may face at school. Yes, the PBK has a lot on his plate as well, but I just need you to understand that money isn't going to lessen the RBK's problems anymore than the rich kids.

Thank you punk for not taking this to a harangue like your peers. I to harbor no ill-will to anyone. I get the point you are trying to make. From a point of racism, no, money just buys "friends" and there will still be racism. I just see that the more wealthy have access to say MCAT review books and courses while the poor one has to use that money on food. The poor one would then have to go to the library, use the internet, and study on his own. I see this, in my own eyes, as another step that the rich do not have to deal with. I am not speaking towards who will do better either. That one with money may bomb the test because he is just not cut out for it and the poor one might ace it because he worked that much harder. I see the point you are trying to make here, but can you see the one I am? How about a mathematical example??

URM=1 and economical disadvantaged=1

Rich URM = 1 One thing "working against him" (please take that with a grain of salt, for lack of better words)
Poor URM 1+1=2 Two things "working against him"

With this being said. I understand that neither scenario will either person be in the clear and none have a "0" status as a middle class white kid (again so to speak, generalizing for clarity)

 

[JamesLMT]

No body is pulling the race card but those who are accusing URMs of doing so. Some minorities, including myself at one point, are not comfortable with putting ourselves out there without having a security blanket, ie other minorities who can relate to how we feel.

Example: I grew in SC all of my life and was around racism all of my life. They had KKK parades down our "section" of town when I was little. I remember seeing a real hanging of a black man because of some stupid argument he had with a white man and this was in the 1997. I went to a school that segregrated us socially even though segregation was outlawed decades ago. I remember getting tests back from some of my high school professors where the answers were marked wrong, but were actually right. I remember feeling like what is the purpose of me studying when all I know that I won't get higher than a C on the test.

I didn't grow up rich, but we weren't poor. I had all the advantages that my mom and dad would afford me, but yet still I was made to be feel like a worthless twit. Now, I'm not saying everyone experiences this but what I can say is don't assume that because their "rich" that their struggles are no bigger than a poor black kid.

Wow... and from one human being to another, I am truly, truly sorry to hear of your story. I know that experiencing thing such as this really sets in our minds. I have seen rape, been abused, gone hungry, been homeless. But it is because of these experiences that we know just how bad some people have. We know the need and therefore our hearts and minds are set on addressing this need. This is where URM status comes in. Do i want to be looked on favorably due to my past and how much of a struggle it was? Yes. Do i think it's fair, no.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, or come off as racist, but truly, it is when people push for equality when racism will stop, not when people push for special treatment due to their backgrounds, race, etc. That will just make the others that are not being shown special treatment more upset and continue the cycle.

You came this far punk because you worked your ass off. You applied yourself the best you could, and I hope that is what gets you into medical school. Not because your are a URM.

 

[JamesLMT]

Real world scenario James:

Facts
(1) People that are poor tend to have the most health needs
(2) Most people that are poor are also minorities.
(3) Minority medical doctors overwhelmingly practice in minority and areas in need.
(4) Illnesses of every race can pass to every race.
(5) Minority students often are poor students and often have lower scores
(6) Minority admitted students aren't less capable doctors

You = ADCOMS. These are your choices:

(1) Admit more minority students to your medical school because the following benefits present themselves:
a. You will be serving more minority people, which means you will also be avoiding the risk of passing illnesses to people or other races and will better the overall quality of health of the entire country. This will also have the unintended consequence of putting minorities at better opportunities in the future.

(2) Admit a student with great stats that will likely be Asian or White. Consequences:
a. You will will be eliminating all the benefits of 1a. In fact, you'll keep the country sicker.
b. You will make a few Asian and White pre-meds happy
c. Poor students (since you don't want economically disadvantaged students either) will remain in poorer areas.

It's really a no brainer on which one to pick.

Good point really. However, there is no guarantee that the ones that come from these backgrounds have been so scarred that they just run and practice somewhere in a big city focusing on the money. IF and only IF, the ones from the minority, poor backgrounds are guaranteed to work with the populations in which they come from, then yes, it is quite a simple decision.

This is the only issue I see with your viewpoint. If we show preference to minorities now, will it have a positive effect on racism in the future?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Wow... and from one human being to another, I am truly, truly sorry to hear of your story. I know that experiencing thing such as this really sets in our minds. I have seen rape, been abused, gone hungry, been homeless. But it is because of these experiences that we know just how bad some people have. We know the need and therefore our hearts and minds are set on addressing this need. This is where URM status comes in. Do i want to be looked on favorably due to my past and how much of a struggle it was? Yes. Do i think it's fair, no.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, or come off as racist, but truly, it is when people push for equality when racism will stop, not when people push for special treatment due to their backgrounds, race, etc. That will just make the others that are not being shown special treatment more upset and continue the cycle.

You came this far punk because you worked your ass off. You applied yourself the best you could, and I hope that is what gets you into medical school. Not because your are a URM.

There maybe some URMs that try to milk it for all its worth but you have to remember getting into medical school is the easy part, successfully graduating medical school + residency is what sets apart the students who belong there.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Good point really. However, there is no guarantee that the ones that come from these backgrounds have been so scarred that they just run and practice somewhere in a big city focusing on the money. IF and only IF, the ones from the minority, poor backgrounds are guaranteed to work with the populations in which they come from, then yes, it is quite a simple decision.

This is the only issue I see with your viewpoint. If we show preference to minorities now, will it have a positive effect on racism in the future?

No. There will always be someone who believes that all races are not created equal and because of that there will always be racism. Racism is a state of mind from an individual point of view and until we can convince/change that mindset, racism will continue to co-exist in our society.

 

[JamesLMT]

Good point really. However, there is no guarantee that the ones that come from these backgrounds have been so scarred that they just run and practice somewhere in a big city focusing on the money. IF and only IF, the ones from the minority, poor backgrounds are guaranteed to work with the populations in which they come from, then yes, it is quite a simple decision.

This is the only issue I see with your viewpoint. If we show preference to minorities now, will it have a positive effect on racism in the future?
[/QUOTE]

No. There will always be someone who believes that all races are not created equal and because of that there will always be racism. Racism is a state of mind from an individual point of view and until we can convince/change that mindset, racism will continue to co-exist in our society.

Exactly, I agree wholeheartedly. My question is this. By showing the preference we do now, the way we do now. Will that have a positive effect decreasing racism by putting URMs in well respected positions? OR will it have a detrimental effect by increasing the resentment of how those URM's got into their positions, and therefore increasing racism?

For example, take basketball. There was not, in fact, a single Black player in the National Basketball Association in its inaugural year, 1944-50, and it was not until Nov. 1, 1950, that the NBA's "Jackie Robinson"--Charles (Chuck) Cooper--made his debut with the Boston Celtics in a game against the Fort Wayne Pistons that there was a black player. Did we say, man there are no black players, we should let him play because he is black and while we are at it give his team a 10 point head start because he's black? No. He got in the game and proved his merit. It was the pioneers of black sports players that proved through merit that they had what it took to be the leaders on the court. Was there racism? You better believe it. But the majority of people now see that blacks have talent in basketball equal too or greater than that of other races. In fact, it was the black players that reinvented the game of basketball. Many creating new moves, and the leaders like Wilt Chamberlin, Dr. J., M.J., Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the list goes on. They blew records out of the water. If we let mediocre players in that turned the ball over all the time and just scored well enough, would that have changed the game for the better? Would the fans and other race players get the consensus that they are just average? I know that this isn't a perfect example, but can you catch my drift?

Based on this example (devils advocate here) isn't it better that the best of the best fight their way to the top to prove that the URM have what it takes and more than to show favor towards them? I know that there are many blacks/hispanics/asians, etc that are smart and would make amazing docs. But is it a better solution for the doubters to say they got to the top because they were shown preference or for them to see that the are every bit as good as anyone else?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Exactly, I agree wholeheartedly. My question is this. By showing the preference we do now, the way we do now. Will that have a positive effect decreasing racism by putting URMs in well respected positions? OR will it have a detrimental effect by increasing the resentment of how those URM's got into their positions, and therefore increasing racism?

For example, take basketball. There was not, in fact, a single Black player in the National Basketball Association in its inaugural year, 1944-50, and it was not until Nov. 1, 1950, that the NBA's "Jackie Robinson"--Charles (Chuck) Cooper--made his debut with the Boston Celtics in a game against the Fort Wayne Pistons that there was a black player. Did we say, man there are no black players, we should let him play because he is black and while we are at it give his team a 10 point head start because he's black? No. He got in the game and proved his merit. It was the pioneers of black sports players that proved through merit that they had what it took to be the leaders on the court. Was there racism? You better believe it. But the majority of people now see that blacks have talent in basketball equal too or greater than that of other races. I know that this isn't a perfect example, but can you catch my drift?

Based on this example (devils advocate here) isn't it better that the best of the best fight their way to the top to prove that the URM have what it takes and more than to show favor towards them?

Yea, I agree but all non-URM applicants/successful acceptees are not top of their game but yet they are still allowed to attend medical school to prove themselves. How is this any different for URMs? For me, all I've ever seen is a bunch of people throwing out double standards for the reasoning behind their arguments.

 

[JamesLMT]

Yea, I agree but all non-URM applicants/successful acceptees are not top of their game but yet they are still allowed to attend medical school to prove themselves. How is this any different for URMs? For me, all I've ever seen is a bunch of people throwing out double standards for the reasoning behind their arguments.

Forgive me if I am using a double standard. In my eyes, the way we should help URM is to level the playing field with regards to premedical education, not acceptance standards. Find those passionate about medicine, give them the resources they need, the resources everyone should have and let them prove themselves in equal footing with grades, mcat scores, etc. I think this process while most likely unobtainable, would better serve to help URM's get a foothold in medicine. I realize that there are scholarships for those already, but the effort should be put out for anyone. White lower class, black middle class, etc. If we work to level it beforehand there can be no naysayers pointing and saying "they got in because they are a URM." You can rebut them by saying "no, they got in on their merit, all we did was provide them with the access to the same materials those better off have."

Forgive me if I didn't answer your question, restate it if you would and I will attempt to do so. Thanks,
I do realize I may be thinking to idealistically here, but I see this as the best way to promote equality. Not the current URM model.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Forgive me if I am using a double standard. In my eyes, the way we should help URM is to level the playing field with regards to premedical education, not acceptance standards. Find those passionate about medicine, give them the resources they need, the resources everyone should have and let them prove themselves in equal footing with grades, mcat scores, etc. I think this process while most likely unobtainable, would better serve to help URM's get a foothold in medicine. I realize that there are scholarships for those already, but the effort should be put out for anyone. White lower class, black middle class, etc. If we work to level it beforehand there can be no naysayers pointing and saying "they got in because they are a URM." You can rebut them by saying "no, they got in on their merit, all we did was provide them with the access to the same materials those better off have."

Forgive me if I didn't answer your question, restate it if you would and I will attempt to do so. Thanks,
I do realize I may be thinking to idealistically here, but I see this as the best way to promote equality. Not the current URM model.

Its cool, my brain has offically shut down from studying endo...so I'm just going to say we agree to disagree lol

 

[MightyMoose]

There are applicants who apply to D.O schools as back ups and don't go if they get accepted into a MD school.

You do know that many schools factor in economic status in the application. And you do know that there are D.O schools. Way to drop the ball sparky. Also economic outcome and race are highly correlated hence why its pretty stupid to say "poor" asians have it the worst. If they don't get into an M.D schools are they suddenly blocked from D.O schools

Hahaha you are an idiot. What you are suggesting is a huge overall of the system and where do you suggest getting money to do this remolding? You are saying the same feel good response everyone says but you might as well say eliminate poverty. Since your argument applies to economic status as well genius.

These polices that ADCOMs take to fix the issue but they do help address it.


And are you implying that blacks who apply to medschool are rich and screw over the poor whites that try to apply? Why do poor whites apply if you say that poor blacks don't? Those poor black inner city youths aren't the ones applying because of what? So why would poor asians apply at all? And given what you said wouldn't poor blacks have it the worst if highschool is a "pipe-dream?"

Oh wait you are making $*$* up. Yes a few "rich" blacks are pre-med but how do you know that they are the ones with low stats? Look at the graph you posted a good portion of URMs score over 30.

I was going to write a response to your post, but I've realized that you wouldn't understand it, since you are clearly having a difficult time with the rest of my posts. By the way, "poor Asians" was a figure of speech, not implying they were impoverished and Asian... It is written the way I intended it, as are the rest of my posts, but it seems hard for the blinded liberals in this thread to follow... I guess if it doesn't follow with a free hand-out you guys aren't interested (I'll specify this to liberals, otherwise you'll take it out of context again with those stellar reading comp skills...).

Let me be perfectly clear about my point: It is wrong to make special considerations or rules in the medical school admissions process on the basis of race. As others have pointed out, this is racism.