Dog on Trial

[VelcroSky]

I was wondering if any of you saw this article in the NY Times the other day and what you thought about it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/nyregion/12dog.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

What do you think about the changing laws that now in many states animals are being treated as more than just the monetary value of purchase/vet bills etc...?

On the one hand, I think it's great that the courts are seeing animals as more than just an asset and more as something with emotional worth. It's also indicative of the changing values of our society in general - enough to put a smile on anybody interested in animals.

On the other hand, such things could backfire in the litigious country that we live in. As lawyers become aware of this new market for suing people, we may very well see an increase in the amount of malpractice suits against vets. Which of course leads to higher malpractice insurance rates, which leads to higher vet costs to the customer, which leads to poorer care for animals. These lawsuits are already wreaking havoc on human medicine and here it comes for veterinary medicine. It's hard to say how it will play out as the system is inherently different since most people don't have health insurance for their pets.

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[pressmom]

In the town where my parents live the workers at the most pampering kennel in town accidentally put a small dog in with a large dog it didn't know. The small dog died. The owner sued and did receive a settlement. It's a pretty clear case of wrongdoing. I was loathe to leave my dogs there, but since have, and they have become super careful.

I'm not excited to see malpractice and suing become more prominent in vet med. That's one of the things I most hate in human medicine--how sue-happy patients have become. Sometimes even with best practices s**t happens.

 

[ckgilabert]

it just sucks because i think the dogs owners are at fault. a dog is only behaving how he was brought up. all my dogs are fine to be with other dogs and i would know that my dogs wouldnt kill the other dog.

it also sucks that this dog-aggressive dog is locked up in a kennel at the shelter. they should just euthanize him or train him. and the owners are obviously ******ed because the dog got out after biting the neighbors dog the first time. the people were given a chance, and ruined it.

 

[KittenKiller]

a dog is only behaving how he was brought up. all my dogs are fine to be with other dogs and i would know that my dogs wouldnt kill the other dog.

I know this is a mantra in a lot of dog training, but personally I think its a bit of BS. Some dogs, like some people, are just bad apples. Its not always the owners' fault. Sure, maybe a dog training genius could train a dog with aggressive tendencies to be sweet as a lamb, but people shouldnt have to be training geniuses to own dogs.

As for this particular case, Im not sure how I feel. Offhand, Im like "just put the damn dog down, whats the big deal" but I also dont think its a good precendent to set, giving a dog the legal status of a human.

 

[ckgilabert]

i see what you're saying kittenkiller...but i honestly believe it. We got our big dog (german shepherd/husky/rottweiler/lab mix) when he was 5 weeks old(now he's 4 yrs old). just today...he found a baby possom and went into a play bow and started cry barking at him because it wasnt responding to him.

anyway, my point was that his dad was totally aggressive and we werent even allowed to go near him. a lot of people get dogs and dont even bother to socialize them. its sad. and i do wish that when a person buys a dog or adopts one, that there should be training classes to go with the price. and at petsmart, it's only $99 and if they fail, they can continue without paying.

 

[Pennymare]

As to the whole 'bad apple vs. training' debate, I want to point out that sometimes dogs behave aggressively due to different causes....and even in very irregular situations. One potential cause is mental illnesses, maybe related to neurological problems (while hard to say what's going on in their heads--why are some littermates more neurotic, aggressive, or outgoing than others with the same background).

My family had a neutered male lab for 9 years; he was the quietest, sweetest dog we had ever owned---very obedient, very affectionate (almost clingy). Unfortunately, we discovered that he had a family history of seizures on BOTH sides and he began to have grand mal seizures. We treated him for his seizures and tried to be very supportive of him.

His sire was untreated and in an environment with very little discipline or control (essentially he ran about this horse farm in a pack). As things came out, we found out that he attacked his owner once, bit several visitors, and would rush arriving cars with the other dogs. One of the littermates lived in the same situation and was also very aggressive.

Back to my dog: He never was aggressive to my family, the cats he was raised with, or our little jack russel....even when the JRT had the audacity to nail him across the nose. He was a little neurotic and unsure of strangers.

One day my dad took the dogs walking in a park. Toby saw a small running animal and literally went into 'predator' mode--he grabbed this little white dog and broke the poor dog's neck. I seriously doubt he even identified the small running animal as another dog. We offered to euthansize our dog, but the owners did not want us to. We never allowed Toby near strange animals again and kept a close eye on him for aggression but he never so much as sneered or growled at visitors or our pets.

Sorry, that was long and I honestly don't know how much it applies to the case in the link. But my point is that 'predator' instincts or agression in animals can be complicated things---its not all genes or all training. I really think that neurological problems and/or anxiety can encourage a tendency towards aggression. However, I think many dogs have an inherent hunting instinct....So please keep your dog on a leash when around strange dogs/animals until they get to know one another...especially when there's a size difference. It's traumatizing to everyone.

 

[Pennymare]

As to the whole 'bad apple vs. training' debate, I want to point out that sometimes dogs behave aggressively due to different causes....and even in very irregular situations. One potential cause is mental illnesses, maybe related to neurological problems (while hard to say what's going on in their heads--why are some littermates more neurotic, aggressive, or outgoing than others with the same background).

My family had a neutered male lab for 9 years; he was the quietest, sweetest dog we had ever owned---very obedient, very affectionate (almost clingy). Unfortunately, we discovered that he had a family history of seizures on BOTH sides and he began to have grand mal seizures. We treated him for his seizures and tried to be very supportive of him.

His sire was untreated and in an environment with very little discipline or control (essentially he ran about this horse farm in a pack). As things came out, we found out that he attacked his owner once, bit several visitors, and would rush arriving cars with the other dogs. One of the littermates lived in the same situation and was also very aggressive.

Back to my dog: He never was aggressive to my family, the cats he was raised with, or our little jack russel....even when the JRT had the audacity to nail him across the nose. He was a little neurotic and unsure of strangers.

One day my dad took the dogs walking in a park. Toby saw a small running animal and literally went into 'predator' mode--he grabbed this little white dog and broke the poor dog's neck. I seriously doubt he even identified the small running animal as another dog. We offered to euthansize our dog, but the owners did not want us to. We never allowed Toby near strange animals again and kept a close eye on him for aggression but he never so much as sneered or growled at visitors or our pets.

Sorry, that was long and I honestly don't know how much it applies to the case in the link. But my point is that 'predator' instincts or agression in animals can be complicated things---its not all genes or all training. I really think that neurological problems and/or anxiety can encourage a tendency towards aggression. However, I think many dogs have an inherent hunting instinct....So please keep your dog on a leash when around strange dogs/animals until they get to know one another...especially when there's a size difference. It's traumatizing to everyone.

 

[Hollycozza]

Oh Pennymare, how awful for all concerned. So unexpected

 

[Pennymare]

Oh Pennymare, how awful for all concerned. So unexpected

Yes, we felt really terrible for the little dog's owners and had to ask ourselves several hard questions. My dad still gets a little upset over it. He was a good dog to our family, but people who do not medicate/manage or control the breeding of dogs with neurological or mental health problems should be...hurt in some way. They're hurting the dogs and others who have to deal with them.