Dog Training is Frustrating!

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PrimalMU

Mississippi c/o 2014
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Alright, I think its mostly because I'm impatient, but I'm finding training my new dog frustrating. Likely its simply a case of me wanting progress faster than I should...

I'm having a few issues that I'm having trouble with. For instance, Doogie knows sit and down, and will obey about 50% of the time with treats. This drops to 0% when he has a leash on, even inside. I'm trying to use only positive reinforcement training with the exception of leash training (which I use the method used by The Amazing Dog Training Man).

Also, I'm finding getting my dog's attention very frustrating, especially outside where it is absolutely impossible to get him to even look at me. I haven't found an exercise that I like for working on attention, so if any one has any suggestions I'm all ears.

I think it would really help if Doogie was more food oriented, but he barely eats a cup and a half of food a day, so even trying to keep is attention with tasty treats is difficult. I know some people recommend using toys as rewards, but I don't see how this would be easy so early in training, when quick repetition is needed.

I know its a matter of patience, and he's a very good dog otherwise, but part of me thinks maybe I should have worked with him a bit more before adopting him (this line of thinking is probably just because I'm frustrated today, and I really hope you all don't think I'm a horrible person for thinking it).
 
Hey there! Can I ask a few questions to get a better feel for Doogie? How old is he? What kind of treats are you using for training? Are you using clicker training? How did you teach sit and down (or did he come with these skills already)? How long have you been working with him overall? How long of sessions do you typically work with him (ie. do you have 10min training sessions, 30min sessions, or occasional random sessions)? Let me know the answers and I'll try to help from there!
 
He may think that wearing the leash means something exciting and is too focused on the possibility of going on a walk. I would clip a leash to his collar and have him wear it at all times just dragging around (make sure he does not get it caught). He will eventually realize it is just normal and not have it be distracting.

In terms of getting him to sit/down I think you need to work on a focus command first like "watch me." If he is ignoring you he is not going to listen to your commands, so you need to teach him to pay attention to you (turn his head to you, make eye contact). The command is pretty easy to teach - spend time in a quiet room and every time he makes eye contact say "watch me" and treat.

I'd also think about figuring out what makes him super happy. Try out any treat you can think of - hot dogs, chicken, peanut butter, etc. You can also go with a favorite ball or toy. If he likes affection you can use that. I know some of these are harder to do immediately - this is where a clicker is great because you can click exactly when he does the desired behavior and then follow up with the reward. The clicker allows you to respond at exactly the right behavior so that he understands what he is being rewarded for.

Obedience classes are another great way to keep him on track. Having a structure and homework might help. The shelter you adopted from may run classes; most Petsmarts and Petcos do as well.
 
Hey there! Can I ask a few questions to get a better feel for Doogie? How old is he? What kind of treats are you using for training? Are you using clicker training? How did you teach sit and down (or did he come with these skills already)? How long have you been working with him overall? How long of sessions do you typically work with him (ie. do you have 10min training sessions, 30min sessions, or occasional random sessions)? Let me know the answers and I'll try to help from there!

He's a year and a half old, roughly, and is obviously a house dog that has run off and was sent to the shelter. He's got a lot of bad habits already.

I've been trying to use a variety of treats, everything from those Pup-Peroni treats (cut up into very small treats for training) to some homemade liver treats I made today. He likes the Pup-Peronis the best, but even then he's not interested in them enough to give me his undivided attention in a quite room. He's just not very food oriented period. I am using clicker training, and I'm working on getting more consistent with it.

He sorta already knew sit and down, in that he knew the motions. He's starting to get the hang of the commands, but even then he only responds half the time (is it he doesn't know the commands, or does it go back to not being food oriented? I don't know...).

I've been working with him since Friday, which I know isn't very long. Like I said, I'm sure 99% of my problem is lack of patience, which I'm trying to work on. Still, with all the other issues its still pretty frustrating.

I try to keep training sessions short, between 5 and 10 minutes. I've been working with him several times a day, though nothing as structured as "10 minutes on, then a 40 minute break, then 10 minutes on again" or anything.

I hope you can help, because if I can manage to get and keep his attention so I can train him I think he'd be just about the perfect dog!
 
If you're that frustrated, there's probably something wrong with what you're doing. If you're frustrated while you're trying to train the dog with positive reinforcement, which is all about getting the dog to be super excited about training with you and getting into that "oooh mommy look what i can do!? ask me to do more!!!!" state, chances are, the dog is not getting that positive vibe from you.

I would suggest finding a friend or a professional trainer who has a lot of experience with positive training. You'd be amazed at how much of a difference the demeanor of the trainer makes on how a dog responds to training. Reading a book or even watching videos can't always convey the critical nuances of a successful trainer. not sure if you're using clickers, but it's also a tool that really helps dogs associate cues with the behavior you want. So finding a good clicker trainer to help you out might be a good idea.

Not all dogs respond well to one type of training, so that may be something to consider too. I would also try a bunch of different types of treats too, cause like you said, food driven dogs are the easiest to clicker train.

As for your dog's attention span, I think that's just something you'll have to work on little by little. Only expect your dog to do things that you're fairly certain the dog can do, and only expand that inch by inch. If you have a hard time keeping your dog to sit and stay in a secluded room for more than a min, don't expect your dog to be able to focus outside. It just ends up being frustrating for both you and your dog!
 
Alright, I think its mostly because I'm impatient, but I'm finding training my new dog frustrating. Likely its simply a case of me wanting progress faster than I should...

I'm having a few issues that I'm having trouble with. For instance, Doogie knows sit and down, and will obey about 50% of the time with treats. This drops to 0% when he has a leash on, even inside. I'm trying to use only positive reinforcement training with the exception of leash training (which I use the method used by The Amazing Dog Training Man).

Also, I'm finding getting my dog's attention very frustrating, especially outside where it is absolutely impossible to get him to even look at me. I haven't found an exercise that I like for working on attention, so if any one has any suggestions I'm all ears.

I think it would really help if Doogie was more food oriented, but he barely eats a cup and a half of food a day, so even trying to keep is attention with tasty treats is difficult. I know some people recommend using toys as rewards, but I don't see how this would be easy so early in training, when quick repetition is needed.

I know its a matter of patience, and he's a very good dog otherwise, but part of me thinks maybe I should have worked with him a bit more before adopting him (this line of thinking is probably just because I'm frustrated today, and I really hope you all don't think I'm a horrible person for thinking it).


Preface: you may want to do some research on "the amazing dog training man". I will not go into detail here as I don't want to step upon anyone's toes, but the veterinary society as a whole does not support dominance theory, as taught by that man.


To your doggie issues:

Dogs are awful generalizers. (So are kids, in comparison.) For instance, you want to teach him sit. Sounds like you already got that down, great! Now you want to teach him sit-stay. Different scenario. First, you need to get that sit down pat (let's assume that it's perfect and you can proceed to the next step).

You can either 1) increase distance OR 2) increase duration. Dogs cannot learn both at the same time. Therefore if you want to get a sit-stay at a distance of 5 feet for 5 minutes, you need to pick either increasing the length of time first or the distance the dog is away from you first. Once the dog has mastered either one or the other, than you proceed to combining the effects. You WILL see a "decrease" in performance at this point when you combine the effects. Your pooch needs to learn separately that it can sit and stay when it's 5 feet away from you and for 5 minutes before it can learn them together. THIS IS NORMAL!!!

As far as positive reinforcement training and treats...
It is a common misconception that positive-reinforcement trained dogs need to ALWAYS be worked with with treats. This is definitely true when teaching a new behavior, however. If your doggie doesn't seem very food motivated, cut up some super awesome human food (not a lot...say hot dog or chicken) and you can use that to train. You want itty bitty little pieces so a 30 min training session shouldn't set him so far back. If you'd rather stay with the dog food, portion out a bit of his food to use for training each day. (That way he'll be motivated to train because he'll be hungry and he'll be learning to look for you for his yummies, which will lead to you being associated with yummy goodness.)

Yes, it's true that toys (or even rubbing or petting or social interaction with other animals) can also be used in positive reinforcement training. THis is especially true after a long training session (you work up to a big reward at the end in order to MAINTAIN already learned behaviors). Also, if you're teaching 'drop it' and 'leave it,' toys work great!!!

Again, I don't want to force my beliefs on you, but you are sending your dog mixed signals by leash-training in one method and doing other training in another method. Pick one and stick to it. Just like kids, dogs need consistency.

Also, as far as outside. It will be a LONG TIME before he is 100% outside. This may be expedited by using super yummy treats rather than force-focused methods (ie, it's much more fun to listen to you when I sit on a leash and heel when you ask me to rather than being leash jerked when I don't really understand what you want---it leads to frustration because the dog doesn't understand what you mean)
If you are looking to get your doggie paying attention to you outside, you want to first increase distractions inside. Outside is a totally different ballgame than inside. There are outside smells from people and other animals. Plants and fire hydrants that need peeing on and moving objects (bikes, cars, frisbees, whatever). So once you work up to the duration/distance sit/stay, you want to add distractions. Again, once you add another element you will probably see some regression. Just take him back to a point where he is successful and work from there (relearning takes less time than learning in the first place!). Drop a ball and make him stay, ring the doorbell and make him stay, make him sit right outside your house when another dog is walking by. Increase distractions slowly and you will be all set!!!!

So basically, you need to be consistent with your training methods and do things slowly. Always end a training session on a good note--5 min training sessions interspersed throughout the day is more effective than a 1 hr training session once a day.

If you'd like any more advice, feel free to PM!

~NStarz

Credentials: adotion counselor at a large spca, behavior modification and training for difficult-to-adopt shelter animals, etc.
 
My best bit of advice... YOU be the reward. I know it is really hard when you are frustrated, but get super excited when he looks at you...keep moving, keep making him guess what your next move is going to be...soon, he'll be like "oooh-what is mom doing? I need to watch...that unpredictable lady does some crazy stuff!"

I had the same no attention span and not very food motivated issue with my dog. I now have learned to be very dramatic while training and that in itself (and a squeaky tennis ball when we're done) are the BEST things in the world for her.
 
Preface: you may want to do some research on "the amazing dog training man". I will not go into detail here as I don't want to step upon anyone's toes, but the veterinary society as a whole does not support dominance theory, as taught by that man.

I didn't say I followed all his advice, just the leash training. 😉

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoJPUH6ULLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKf7bBZwQos

To your doggie issues:

Dogs are awful generalizers. (So are kids, in comparison.) For instance, you want to teach him sit. Sounds like you already got that down, great! Now you want to teach him sit-stay. Different scenario. First, you need to get that sit down pat (let's assume that it's perfect and you can proceed to the next step).

You can either 1) increase distance OR 2) increase duration. Dogs cannot learn both at the same time. Therefore if you want to get a sit-stay at a distance of 5 feet for 5 minutes, you need to pick either increasing the length of time first or the distance the dog is away from you first. Once the dog has mastered either one or the other, than you proceed to combining the effects. You WILL see a "decrease" in performance at this point when you combine the effects. Your pooch needs to learn separately that it can sit and stay when it's 5 feet away from you and for 5 minutes before it can learn them together. THIS IS NORMAL!!!

Ah, thank you for mentioning this! I see now that I've been very inconsistent in my attempts, so I'll try to start rectifying this!

As far as positive reinforcement training and treats...
It is a common misconception that positive-reinforcement trained dogs need to ALWAYS be worked with with treats. This is definitely true when teaching a new behavior, however. If your doggie doesn't seem very food motivated, cut up some super awesome human food (not a lot...say hot dog or chicken) and you can use that to train. You want itty bitty little pieces so a 30 min training session shouldn't set him so far back. If you'd rather stay with the dog food, portion out a bit of his food to use for training each day. (That way he'll be motivated to train because he'll be hungry and he'll be learning to look for you for his yummies, which will lead to you being associated with yummy goodness.)

I'll try some hotdog tomorrow to see how he responds to that. I pulled his food today so he'll be hungry tomorrow (don't worry, he got a LOT of training treats today, so he's not starving) and hopefully more motivated.

Yes, it's true that toys (or even rubbing or petting or social interaction with other animals) can also be used in positive reinforcement training. THis is especially true after a long training session (you work up to a big reward at the end in order to MAINTAIN already learned behaviors). Also, if you're teaching 'drop it' and 'leave it,' toys work great!!!

I've been trying to work on "drop it" while playing with him, and its been going alright (although he'll voluntarily give me his toy anyway, so its hard to tell if he's learned anything, haha!). He's a very good retriever, lol.

Again, I don't want to force my beliefs on you, but you are sending your dog mixed signals by leash-training in one method and doing other training in another method. Pick one and stick to it. Just like kids, dogs need consistency.

You mean not using positive reenforcement for leash training? He's done very well with leash training, and doesn't pull NEARLY as much as he did even 2 days ago. If you know of a positive reenforcement method for keeping a dog from pulling I'd love to hear it!

Also, as far as outside. It will be a LONG TIME before he is 100% outside. This may be expedited by using super yummy treats rather than force-focused methods (ie, it's much more fun to listen to you when I sit on a leash and heel when you ask me to rather than being leash jerked when I don't really understand what you want---it leads to frustration because the dog doesn't understand what you mean)
If you are looking to get your doggie paying attention to you outside, you want to first increase distractions inside. Outside is a totally different ballgame than inside. There are outside smells from people and other animals. Plants and fire hydrants that need peeing on and moving objects (bikes, cars, frisbees, whatever). So once you work up to the duration/distance sit/stay, you want to add distractions. Again, once you add another element you will probably see some regression. Just take him back to a point where he is successful and work from there (relearning takes less time than learning in the first place!). Drop a ball and make him stay, ring the doorbell and make him stay, make him sit right outside your house when another dog is walking by. Increase distractions slowly and you will be all set!!!!

Good points. Obviously I'm being unrealistic as far as his outside behavior. Right now I'll settle for a dog that doesn't pull (much, anyway) when I take him for a walk. Then I'll start gradually working on getting and keeping his attention while outside.

So basically, you need to be consistent with your training methods and do things slowly. Always end a training session on a good note--5 min training sessions interspersed throughout the day is more effective than a 1 hr training session once a day.

If you'd like any more advice, feel free to PM!

~NStarz

Credentials: adotion counselor at a large spca, behavior modification and training for difficult-to-adopt shelter animals, etc.

Thanks a lot for your advice! It is much appreciated! If you can give me any more sage advice based on my responses I would be eternally grateful!
 
I've been working with him since Friday, which I know isn't very long. Like I said, I'm sure 99% of my problem is lack of patience, which I'm trying to work on.

oh, haha yeah i agree that this might be your biggest prob! the thing is that it will take time to extinguish unwanted behaviors and to capture more desirable behaviors. the only thing you can really do to expedite this process is to set your dog up for success and not confuse him along the way. don't teach too many things at once, or things that aren't realistic for your dog yet. even the smartest, most driven dogs will take more than 4-5 days to get there.
 
Well, 98% of the time, that assumption is correct. And not everyone is obvious about it like david594. 🙂

And some are misleading, like chris03333(33..3?). Aren't names fun? If you post on this forum, you're by default a female until posted otherwise.
 
And some are misleading, like chris03333(33..3?). Aren't names fun? If you post on this forum, you're by default a female until posted otherwise.

And to think I thought "Primal" was manly enough a word to convey my gender... guess I was wrong! 😉
 
I didn't say I followed all his advice, just the leash training. 😉

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoJPUH6ULLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKf7bBZwQos



Ah, thank you for mentioning this! I see now that I've been very inconsistent in my attempts, so I'll try to start rectifying this!

Unfortunately, leash training is one of the most difficult skills for a dog to learn (at least in my experience). For some reason, it doesn't really click with a ton of dogs. So for now, I will focus on you being able to have an enjoyable walking experience (may not be quite loose leash, but close!)

First, teach a really good cue word, like "watch or look at me" This will focus your dog before you start the training. This is very easy to train. I'm assuming he knows his name (if not, that's another story), but a separate cue word will let him know that good things will come when you say this word in the context of training. To teach: reward him every time he looks at you during a training session (while specifically training this behavior). Eventually, he will begin to associate looking at you with good yummy treats (which is also a good thing by itself!) Introduce a hand signal of your choosing to let him know "watch" or "look". Then, introduce the word last (hand signal first, then word. This is also the way it should be done in actual training scenarios. Ie, you want him to look, first you give the hand signal and then say the word)

Once you've got that down pat, add distractions as before. This is a pretty easy skill for dogs to learn so it shouldn't take too long. Once you're about 75%, you can move on to leash training.

Put your dog in a sit on your left side, facing the direction you will be walking. Again, dogs will get confused because you are not standing in front of them (which is most likely where you trained the sit, so you will need to do a little brush-up course!). Once you've got your dog sitting next to your left leg, give a release word (I generally use "okay" for release and "yes" to mark a behavior I like <--this can also be done using a clicker.) You can tug slightly on the leash to get him to go with you if you haven't worked on the "okay" yet (you can do this with sit/stays, too!)

(Tangential: clickers are slightly better than cue words because your voice changes with inflection, tone, etc, which isn't great, but I use it because I don't always carry a clicker with me!)

So you've given your dog the release signal and most likely he will start pulling like a banshee. If you feel any pressure on the leash AT ALL, stop moving. When you feel some slack on the leash, start moving. Tension, stop. Your pooch will quickly learn to associate the pulling with the lack of movement (which they want to do!) so they will stop pulling to move the walk forward. If your pooch is not releasing slack at all, change directions (you have a split second advantage then!) I tend not to advise training the specific act of leash walking with treats. (Although you can practice this behavior inside with treats in the absence of a large walking space.) Rather, the reinforcement is the walking, which is reward in and of itself!

I suggest walking with some kind of harness in the meantime (E-Z walk harness works wonderfully!), and even through training and beyond. If your dog is a recurrent puller, he can damage his trachea from collar walking. Harnesses decrease pulling and also increase safety. If you have a terrier, you may have a harder time with loose-leash walking. I have two terriers at home, but one is completely not prey-driven at all (she walks wonderfully on leash!), but the other one will eat anything and everything, so I use his harness whenever I'm walking him. He doesn't pull nearly as much as he used to (ie, not taking my arm off) and the harness helps with any residual pulling. However, if he sees a squirrel, all bets are off for a minute until I can refocus him! (And that is where a good "look" would be wonderful! Also, "leave it" is helpful in this situation)

You may not get very far on the first day, that's okay! Remember to end on a good note and not push too far. I saw in your later post that you keep your training sessions short: that is EXCELLENT. (Think spaced effect vs. mass cramming in psychology theory when studying for tests. Cramming may lead to a greater success early on, but long-term spacing leads to greater success later.)


I'll try some hotdog tomorrow to see how he responds to that. I pulled his food today so he'll be hungry tomorrow (don't worry, he got a LOT of training treats today, so he's not starving) and hopefully more motivated.

Keep in mind that hotdog can give some dogs a stomach-ache. But it's very highly motivating. Also, training treats should be much smaller than the normal doggy treat used just to give your dog a special treat (You mentiond pup-eroni...are you giving the whole thing at a time?) Training treats should be no bigger than a fingernail. That way, you can get lots of training in without the dog feeling full. For a really good trial, you can give multiple treats.

I've been trying to work on "drop it" while playing with him, and its been going alright (although he'll voluntarily give me his toy anyway, so its hard to tell if he's learned anything, haha!). He's a very good retriever, lol.


If you think he's pretty good with toys, you can try something that would be a little more valuable to him, like bones or food items dropped on the floor. Bones work great for drop it, food works great for leave it.

You mean not using positive reenforcement for leash training? He's done very well with leash training, and doesn't pull NEARLY as much as he did even 2 days ago. If you know of a positive reenforcement method for keeping a dog from pulling I'd love to hear it!

Like I said, you may get results in the short-term with those methods, but you'll build a much better relationship with your dog and will have a much more enjoyable training session if you are both enjoying it (leash-jerking isn't really fun for him, nor is it, I expect, for you 😉


See above for the positive reinforcement leash-training.

Good points. Obviously I'm being unrealistic as far as his outside behavior. Right now I'll settle for a dog that doesn't pull (much, anyway) when I take him for a walk. Then I'll start gradually working on getting and keeping his attention while outside.

Sounds like a plan! Don't give up, you're on the right track, just needed some tweaks here and there.


Thanks a lot for your advice! It is much appreciated! If you can give me any more sage advice based on my responses I would be eternally grateful!

No problem! Glad to be of help. I think it's sooo important that veterinary student and veterinarians have some semblance of an idea about animal behavior once they start practicing. The number one reason that clients come to vets is for behavior advice! Unfortunately, the subject is that well covered in most veterinary schools 🙁
 
Unfortunately, leash training is one of the most difficult skills for a dog to learn

Agreed! It's been three years and my dog still, only occasionally, decides to walk right beside me on a loose lead!

It's funny, because she is sooo much better off-leash than she is on. As soon as that leash gets unclipped, she focuses right on me, "okay mom, i'm ready mom, what's next mom? want me to chase that bird away? bring you a stick? what i can do to make you happy? what? what? what?"
She goes in "make mom happy" overdrive, LOL. She wont take her eyes off me when there's no leash, and will heel right by me without an issue until I tell her its ok to go.




ETA: And speaking of dogs, can someone please, please, please train mine NOT to throw tennis balls at me while I'm studying?? I have wet slobbery tennis ball prints across my nutrition notebook...
 
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You're getting some great advice already, but I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents 😛

First: the leash walking. I tried the method in the youtube vid (never heard of that guy tho! I thought "Amazing dog trainer guy" was code for Cesar haha). It confused my dog to the point that during those exercises she would start following me with a confused look on her face because she was disoriented and unsure... but never translated to her remembering to walk beside me the next time we went out. I started using what equates to negative reinforcement in that you're taking something away... but it's done in a positive way (there are terms for this... I don't remember them 😀). I think it will work well for you since your dog is beyond command once the leash is on. Once he/she starts pulling (so initially, this will be immediate...) you stop moving. And you don't move again until the dog moves closer and there is slack. It might be intentional to see what the hold up is, or it might be accidental... but as soon as there is slack, start walking. You can also praise, but my dog gets so excited if I praise her for it... she bolts to the end of the leash again... so we skip that part. The forward movment in itself is reward enough for her. Then repeat. It's time consuming, and you have to make sure you're in good spirits when you start because it can become frustrating quickly if you're not. Eventually, though, he/she will get it. My dog now knows when I stop to look at me and move closer. She likes walking, and she wants to keep walking, so she generally leaves a little slack so that I wont stop. She's not perfect at it... but we no longer use a halti and our walks are very enjoyable now.

Two other things that might help:

You said you'd work on leash training first and then worry about getting/keeping his attention outside. This is a good plan since your dog probably wont pay much/complete attention for a while... however, make sure you teach her the command many people have mentioned above ("look", or "watch me") during your indoor training sessions. When dogs want something, they tend to offer you behaviors they know you like. If she knows this behavior because you taught it to her indoors, she may start offering it to you on the street when she wants to walk and you're not moving. That's what my dog did... and that's why she now looks at me when we stop.

Also, teach her a release command (I think this is also mentioned above). My dog LOVES LOVES LOVES to sniff... she's so curious outside and does NOT want to pay attention to me. But she knows that if she pulls towards the grass/bush/object of interest, I'm going to stop moving. So she looks at me, keeps looking and waits for me to say "OK" in an excited voice... that's her release command and it means it's OK for her to explor the environment and stop paying attention to me. That's a HUGE reward (she's spit out treats in order to pursue this haha). That may be the type of reward you can come up with for your dog. Letting it not pay attention to you, as long as it will somehow filter in the "lets go" command when play time is over....

HTH. It's late and I"ve had a long day so if any of that doesnt make sense feel free to make fun of me in a (this) public forum 😛

Good luck!! I'm a very impatient person... but through trial and error I've really learned that positive training is the absolute best way to form a rewarding relationship with your dog while also having them do what you want 😉


Haha Shanomong, I think we're twins 😉 Excellent advice!!!

P.S. Cowgirla: Still having trouble leash-walking? Try a harness! I will never go back to collar walking after I put my pooches on the E-Z walk. (They use the same principle for horses and it seems to work for them!!!)
 
Haha Shanomong, I think we're twins 😉 Excellent advice!!!

P.S. Cowgirla: Still having trouble leash-walking? Try a harness! I will never go back to collar walking after I put my pooches on the E-Z walk. (They use the same principle for horses and it seems to work for them!!!)


She has chewed through every harness I try. Five, to be exact. I gave up 🙂
She's got such a wierd build that she can either chew through the chest piece, or the piece that goes around her shoulder. I tried all different styles too.

She's not horrible, she doesnt yank me around, or choke herself, I just need to remind her not to trip me :laugh: And honestly, most of its my fault...its so much easier to just leave the leash at home, so we dont practice very much unless we're somewhere that requires the leash. If I really need her heeling, I just keep a couple cookies in my pocket and she's glued.
 
She has chewed through every harness I try. Five, to be exact. I gave up 🙂
She's got such a wierd build that she can either chew through the chest piece, or the piece that goes around her shoulder. I tried all different styles too.

She's not horrible, she doesnt yank me around, or choke herself, I just need to remind her not to trip me :laugh: And honestly, most of its my fault...its so much easier to just leave the leash at home, so we dont practice very much unless we're somewhere that requires the leash. If I really need her heeling, I just keep a couple cookies in my pocket and she's glued.


Wow, that's crazy! You must have a chewer on your hands! Lol. I know they make toys and kongs that are for chewers, but I'm not sure about harnesses. Seems like you have everything under control, though. One of my dogs trips me all of the time when we're walking. He literally weaves back and forth on the sidewalk. And then he just stops and poops without warning (usually in front of my feet so I have to dance to avoid stepping in it!). No smelling, no nothing. But what can you do? Lol.
 
Wow, that's crazy! You must have a chewer on your hands! Lol. I know they make toys and kongs that are for chewers, but I'm not sure about harnesses. Seems like you have everything under control, though. One of my dogs trips me all of the time when we're walking. He literally weaves back and forth on the sidewalk. And then he just stops and poops without warning (usually in front of my feet so I have to dance to avoid stepping in it!). No smelling, no nothing. But what can you do? Lol.


Yeah, she's high maintenance. :laugh: And very active. But that's my fault for getting a herding breed!
Other than a table leg when she was a pup, she's never chewed anything she wasn't supposed to. I think she just doesn't like the idea of "wearing" anything. She's not exactly a fashion princess, and I think she'd be quite happy to be an outdoor dog in some cold, snowy area, LOL
 
The other thing to consider is what this dog has been through in the past couple weeks. Lost (or kicked out) from home, a scary shelter where he can smell sickness and death everywhere, a new place where he doesn't know anyone. Think about how you would feel going through that and if you had a tough class right afterward - you probably wouldn't be on your game. How many stories do we hear on here about people's personal problems leading to academic issues? I see this as the same thing for the dog.

As (another) adoption counselor I find myself reminding people a lot that the animal has been through hell and it's going to take some time to get it to where it needs to be. I think your first priority is to make a bond with this dog. It needs to respect you, yes, but it also needs some love and the time to develop that relationship. A dog is going to be much more motivated to please its best friend than a person it's not really sure of yet.

Obviously I don't know your dog and there are certainly dogs coming out of shelters that need boundaries and rules and a strong leader right away, but there are also dogs that just need some love and a family for a while before having too much expected of them.
 
The other thing to consider is what this dog has been through in the past couple weeks. Lost (or kicked out) from home, a scary shelter where he can smell sickness and death everywhere, a new place where he doesn't know anyone. Think about how you would feel going through that and if you had a tough class right afterward - you probably wouldn't be on your game. How many stories do we hear on here about people's personal problems leading to academic issues? I see this as the same thing for the dog.

As (another) adoption counselor I find myself reminding people a lot that the animal has been through hell and it's going to take some time to get it to where it needs to be. I think your first priority is to make a bond with this dog. It needs to respect you, yes, but it also needs some love and the time to develop that relationship. A dog is going to be much more motivated to please its best friend than a person it's not really sure of yet.

Obviously I don't know your dog and there are certainly dogs coming out of shelters that need boundaries and rules and a strong leader right away, but there are also dogs that just need some love and a family for a while before having too much expected of them.

Great points, bunnity! I would also like to add that training is a wonderful way to establish a bond with a new best friend (not too stressful, mind you, but they learn to trust you and look to you for guidance).

Of course, if all else fails, find a credentialled dog trainer or veterinary behaviorist to help! Good trainers will let you watch a class before you sign up (for group sessions, and they may give you a trial run before you pay), use positive reinforcement ONLY methods, are well-versed in animal behavior and learning theory, and WILL NOT give you a guarantee as to the behavior of your animal. No good trainer will give you a guarantee that Fluffy or Fido will sit and come every time he/she is called. Animals are effected by outside circumstances (she just be in a bad mood!) and therefore trainer who make guarantees are probably not the kind of person you want to be taking advice from!

You seem like a great new dog owner, PrimalMU. Don't be afraid to ask for help if you find yourself getting overwhelmed. Also, not too sure about the shelter you adopted from (there are good and bad out there, unfortunately), but at least in my shelter, we do follow-ups with the adopters. So if you're having behavior difficulties (or need a question answered), they may be a good resource to tap into. They may be able to get you a referral (if needed) for qualified trainers in your area, and may also give you some advice on how to work with your specific animal (as they probably know the history, etc, of the animal).
 
First: the leash walking. I tried the method in the youtube vid (never heard of that guy tho! I thought "Amazing dog trainer guy" was code for Cesar haha). It confused my dog to the point that during those exercises she would start following me with a confused look on her face because she was disoriented and unsure... but never translated to her remembering to walk beside me the next time we went out. I started using what equates to negative reinforcement in that you're taking something away... but it's done in a positive way (there are terms for this... I don't remember them 😀). I think it will work well for you since your dog is beyond command once the leash is on. Once he/she starts pulling (so initially, this will be immediate...) you stop moving. And you don't move again until the dog moves closer and there is slack. It might be intentional to see what the hold up is, or it might be accidental... but as soon as there is slack, start walking. You can also praise, but my dog gets so excited if I praise her for it... she bolts to the end of the leash again... so we skip that part. The forward movment in itself is reward enough for her. Then repeat. It's time consuming, and you have to make sure you're in good spirits when you start because it can become frustrating quickly if you're not. Eventually, though, he/she will get it. My dog now knows when I stop to look at me and move closer. She likes walking, and she wants to keep walking, so she generally leaves a little slack so that I wont stop. She's not perfect at it... but we no longer use a halti and our walks are very enjoyable now.

This method works pretty well. It requires a ton of patience, especially at first. You might only go 1/2 block on a walk at first, but you can build from there. The other thing you can do is sometimes, to keep both of you interested is to change directions (180 degrees). Dogs want to move and lots of direction changes keep them interested. We switched back and forth.

The other thing which I want to reiterate is attitude. Dogs are super-sensitive to our emotions. You let the slightest frustration show and the dog is never going to achieve much with you. I have a really bright dog, with a mind of her own that was so hard to train because she would tune out the SECOND I had the slightest negative thought. "The world is just too fun to pay any attention to this moody person with me." Accept whatever the dog is willing to give and move from there. And DON'T expect just because something worked yesterday, you can start from there the next day. You have to always regain the previous highs slowly!

Everyone has been pretty supportive but I just have to throw it out there....
You got the dog on Friday and you are frustrated 4 days later?

Um, how long did it take you to learn organic chemistry? 4 days. Give the dog a break.

You have to develop a relationship and trust with the dog. It will take time for most dogs to be laser-locked on you. If it isn't paying attention outside then just work on the relationship inside for now. I have done a lot of training (shelter, agility, obedience, therapy) and it always takes time (regardless of what tv's unrealistic programs say). The more you put into it, the better the relationship will be!
 
Thanks guys for mostly saying what I would say, thus saving me time! 😉

Just wanted to mention: I really dislike the Easy Walk harness. It's damaging to the dog's gait (it creates a short stride in the front) which will lead to musculoskeletal issues later. It has a buckle directly over the biceps tendon, which adds to the potential for injury. It doesn't actually teach the dog--they just CAN'T walk when it's on, which IMO isn't really the goal. It does not allow control of the dog's head.

I would recommend either a head halter (I don't love them, but they're better) or doing the leash around the abdomen method (it's hard to describe, here's a photo) http://tripawds.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/misc_1009/0110_t-leash.jpg which has worked for all of my dogs and not caused any injuries. Granted it also limits control of the head, but at least it doesn't retrict their gait, too.
 
Everyone has been pretty supportive but I just have to throw it out there....
You got the dog on Friday and you are frustrated 4 days later?

Um, how long did it take you to learn organic chemistry? 4 days. Give the dog a break.

In my original post I mentioned that the biggest factor is probably my impatient. You're not really telling me anything I don't already know and haven't already admitted to myself and everyone here. 😛
 
So you tell your dog what you want and he ignores you and does what he wants anyways? Sounds like you and the dog have a lot in common, unless you've moved out of your parents' place since last week!

But I can commiserate - dog training can be super frustrating. Just try to stay patient (I know, easier said than done) and you guys will get there eventually.
 
Feed the dog one meal- at night. Throughout the day while you're training, have the allotted amount you normally feed in a treat bag on your waist. Feed the kibble as a treat. You will soon have a food-motivated pooch on your hands.

'Catch him' doing behaviors you like and throw him a kibble.

Enroll in a socialization/training class. Sometimes a trainer can see things that you don't- ways to improve or mixed messages that you're sending.

Start slow. You should be doing a lot of low-distraction work and gradually build yourself up to outside with minimal distractions building more and more to a high-distraction area outside. In four days, that is unrealistic expectations to build up that quickly.

If you haven't read this book, I recommend it. It is for performance puppies but it essentially perfect for anyone training a new pet: "Building Blocks for Performance" by Bobbie Anderson.
 
Thanks guys for mostly saying what I would say, thus saving me time! 😉

Just wanted to mention: I really dislike the Easy Walk harness. It's damaging to the dog's gait (it creates a short stride in the front) which will lead to musculoskeletal issues later. It has a buckle directly over the biceps tendon, which adds to the potential for injury. It doesn't actually teach the dog--they just CAN'T walk when it's on, which IMO isn't really the goal. It does not allow control of the dog's head.

I would recommend either a head halter (I don't love them, but they're better) or doing the leash around the abdomen method (it's hard to describe, here's a photo) http://tripawds.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/misc_1009/0110_t-leash.jpg which has worked for all of my dogs and not caused any injuries. Granted it also limits control of the head, but at least it doesn't retrict their gait, too.

Interesting. I think I need to do a little more research. Just wanted to point out that a head halter (or gentle leader or whatever), doesn't really "teach" the dog either. The dog's head is guided towards you when he pulls so he needs to look to pay attention to you. When the gentle leader is off, there is no guarantee that he'll listen to you any better.

Masking the problem is just what the OP needs until he gets some more and thorough training under his belt. Later, he can work on the leash walking (as I've said in my earlier posts), but he's looking for a quick fix in the short term.
 
So you tell your dog what you want and he ignores you and does what he wants anyways? Sounds like you and the dog have a lot in common, unless you've moved out of your parents' place since last week!

Hey now! I believe I mentioned somewhere that I actually got permission to get the dog. 😛 They just had concerns about getting a dog right before starting vet school, but we worked it out (it helped that my mom understood WHY I wanted to get one now versus waiting until I got down there).
 
Hey now! I believe I mentioned somewhere that I actually got permission to get the dog. 😛 They just had concerns about getting a dog right before starting vet school, but we worked it out (it helped that my mom understood WHY I wanted to get one now versus waiting until I got down there).
Oh, sweet! In that case, my comment is completely uncalled for. I had checked the other thread and didn't see any follow-up from you. Glad your parents came around 🙂
 
Oh, sweet! In that case, my comment is completely uncalled for. I had checked the other thread and didn't see any follow-up from you. Glad your parents came around 🙂

Now that I think about it I may have made the comment in the pet pics thread.
 
She has chewed through every harness I try. Five, to be exact. I gave up 🙂
She's got such a wierd build that she can either chew through the chest piece, or the piece that goes around her shoulder. I tried all different styles too.

She's not horrible, she doesnt yank me around, or choke herself, I just need to remind her not to trip me :laugh: And honestly, most of its my fault...its so much easier to just leave the leash at home, so we dont practice very much unless we're somewhere that requires the leash. If I really need her heeling, I just keep a couple cookies in my pocket and she's glued.


I didn't really read all of this thread but noticed your post.

We have Lupine brand collars and harnesses. They are guaranteed FOR LIFE by the company- even if CHEWED!! 👍😍👍 They have worked well for us, you should look into it. It would save you a bunch of money if your dog keeps eating/chewing them.
 
Interesting. I think I need to do a little more research. Just wanted to point out that a head halter (or gentle leader or whatever), doesn't really "teach" the dog either. The dog's head is guided towards you when he pulls so he needs to look to pay attention to you. When the gentle leader is off, there is no guarantee that he'll listen to you any better.

Masking the problem is just what the OP needs until he gets some more and thorough training under his belt. Later, he can work on the leash walking (as I've said in my earlier posts), but he's looking for a quick fix in the short term.

I don't actually really like head halters at all either, and personally would you a prong collar before a head halter, but that tends to be controversial and head halters are an improvement over the harness at least since they are unlikely to cause permanent musculoskeletal alteration.

And really, I used none of the above on my most recent puppy and just did the leash-torso-wrap and training (obviously). 😉 I only mention the above as things to use while the training is being solidified in the case where the owner needs to have some measure of control over the dog. In fact I maintain that any dog can be trained not to pull on a leash, so none of the above tools should be used long term anyway.
 
I didn't really read all of this thread but noticed your post.

We have Lupine brand collars and harnesses. They are guaranteed FOR LIFE by the company- even if CHEWED!! 👍😍👍 They have worked well for us, you should look into it. It would save you a bunch of money if your dog keeps eating/chewing them.

The lupine harnesses look really nice. However, the step-in is still a restrictive harness (although it's advertised as being non-restrictive). The roman style should be nonrestrictive if properly adjusted (the head hole should be tight like a collar) and the H style is nonrestrictive.
 
I didn't really read all of this thread but noticed your post.

We have Lupine brand collars and harnesses. They are guaranteed FOR LIFE by the company- even if CHEWED!! 👍😍👍 They have worked well for us, you should look into it. It would save you a bunch of money if your dog keeps eating/chewing them.


I have a lupine one hanging around somewhere, and use Lupine leashes. But It's not worth sending the harness back EVERY time I put it on my dog. she just has no tolerance for them, and it only takes her a few minutes to do major damage to it. I look away for a second, and she's halfway through it. I gave up 🙂 Good old flat buckled collar works fine for us.

I think the head haltis are good if used correctly. I HATE HATE HATE seeing people bring their dogs in wearing one of those, and YANKING the dog around by it to try and get them to listen. That's got to be causing some major damage to the neck.
 
I don't actually really like head halters at all either, and personally would you a prong collar before a head halter, but that tends to be controversial and head halters are an improvement over the harness at least since they are unlikely to cause permanent musculoskeletal alteration.

And really, I used none of the above on my most recent puppy and just did the leash-torso-wrap and training (obviously). 😉 I only mention the above as things to use while the training is being solidified in the case where the owner needs to have some measure of control over the dog. In fact I maintain that any dog can be trained not to pull on a leash, so none of the above tools should be used long term anyway.

I am an avid non-supporter of prong collars. Granted, if they are used correctly, they are pretty safe, but the average layperson is just going to use it to choke their dog if they do something they don't like (non-intentionally, of course!)

My friend became a certified trainer through the San Francisco SPCA. She was required to wear a prong collar on her leg while taking her lessons. She sent me pictures, and let's just say her leg looked like it had been through a war. (And this is with aboslutely no outside intereference, just the general day to day wear of the animal). Yes, dogs do have hair on their necks, but they also have vital organs necessary to their survival and well-being there. And not all dogs are that hairy.

Any method that can cause my dog or cat pain or suffering (if used incorrectly or just by its correct use), I will not advocate for nor will I advocate others to use.

Don't want to start a debate on prong collars, but I just wanted to give my opinion and experiences.
 
Feed the dog one meal- at night. Throughout the day while you're training, have the allotted amount you normally feed in a treat bag on your waist. Feed the kibble as a treat. You will soon have a food-motivated pooch on your hands.

This worked like a charm! Dooger was far more motivated today than yesterday! Part of that I'm sure was my different attitude, but the empty belly probably didn't hurt.
 
I don't actually really like head halters at all either, and personally would you a prong collar before a head halter, but that tends to be controversial and head halters are an improvement over the harness at least since they are unlikely to cause permanent musculoskeletal alteration.

And really, I used none of the above on my most recent puppy and just did the leash-torso-wrap and training (obviously). 😉 I only mention the above as things to use while the training is being solidified in the case where the owner needs to have some measure of control over the dog. In fact I maintain that any dog can be trained not to pull on a leash, so none of the above tools should be used long term anyway.


We tried your leash-torso-wrap style on our walk today, just to see what pup's reaction would be.

I think I like it. I didn't do it for long, because I dont want to have to "untrain" anything later, but for a few steps. She'd start to wander off, it would tighten a little, she'd get confused and look me. Hooray! And, its nonrestrictive enough that she doesnt try to eat it :laugh:
Is this a method you came up with, or are there places I can read up on it?
 
We tried your leash-torso-wrap style on our walk today, just to see what pup's reaction would be.

I think I like it. I didn't do it for long, because I dont want to have to "untrain" anything later, but for a few steps. She'd start to wander off, it would tighten a little, she'd get confused and look me. Hooray! And, its nonrestrictive enough that she doesnt try to eat it :laugh:
Is this a method you came up with, or are there places I can read up on it?


I didn't invent it, but I don't know where it came from directly. It's just something I've seen plenty of other obedience and agility handlers do, so I tried it. Sure, it could maybe possibly somehow injure your dog if they took off--but so could a regular collar and leash, so I don't think it's really any different than that. It's also obviously simple and cheap, and can be implemented any time you're walking if needed (you don't need to bring any special equipment like you do with a harness or halter).

NStarz-- I don't use prongs extensively and wouldn't use one on a dog that continued pulling through the collar, nor would I leave it on a dog unsupervised. I have used them exclusively during training leash walking in a young dog who, once she felt the collar once, immediately stopped pulling. Any dog that continued to pull I would use something else. I felt that the use in my particular situation was appropriate and not injurious, but I agree that it is easy to misuse a prong and I wouldn't recommend it for constant use or to someone inexperienced in using one. I do think that a properly used prong causes less damage than an easy walk harness, based on the number of altered gaits I've seen in dogs wearing easy walks and the number of neck injuries I (haven't) seen in dogs with prongs.

But overall training is still what is really necessary in every situation that could warrant any of these devices. 🙂
 
I didn't read through everything, but if you go to clickertraining.com you can find tutorials for loose leash walking training that may address the issues.

I have trained extremly traditional to extremly R+ with everything from fish to bears. I have a strong preference now for the animals to cooperate and decide to participate. This site will offer several options, using a bridge cue, to train LLW.
 
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