Doing a clinical post-doc with academic goals?

[futureapppsy2]

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Do you all have any thoughts on the pros and cons of doing a primarily clinical post-doc with the thought of going into an academic career later? One considerable advantage that I can see is that you can get licensed and put yourself in a better position in terms of supervising students. Also, it seems like it might be helpful if you were applying for joint research/clinical positions, like at an AMC or VA.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You could try looking for a research-oriented postdoc that still allows for somewhere around 30-50% of your time to be spent in clinical work. Particularly if it ends up being 2 years, that should give you time to accrue the necessary supervised hours for licensure while also getting you a good bit of protected research.

 

[Ollie123]

You could try looking for a research-oriented postdoc that still allows for somewhere around 30-50% of your time to be spent in clinical work. Particularly if it ends up being 2 years, that should give you time to accrue the necessary supervised hours for licensure while also getting you a good bit of protected research.

This is what virtually everyone I know going into academia has done. While its entirely possible to do a clinical post-doc and then make the leap back, I think most of us pursuing that path would hate the idea of doing so. Its hard enough having to "basically" leave the research world for a year to do internship!

 

[cara susanna]

Seems like the research-oriented ones are harder to find though, unless you're coming from a research-heavy internship site that offers them. Thoughts?

 

[Ollie123]

Seems like the research-oriented ones are harder to find though, unless you're coming from a research-heavy internship site that offers them. Thoughts?

Think I always reply when you post about this, but I really do think you worry too much about it🙂 Maybe this depends on geographic area and field, but I don't have that impression at all. They are perhaps fewer in number, but at least in my field post-doc is basically the opposite of internship - researchers are clawing one another out of the way to get qualified post-docs. I have 2 I'm fairly certain I could email tomorrow and have an offer in hand by the end of the week. Every other person I meet at conferences seems to say "Keep us in mind for post-doc" or something to that regard. That doesn't mean they would all pan out of course (funding might dry up, etc.), but some certainly would. Given how frequently ads circulate for a couple places I'm familiar with, I get the impression they go unfilled at least part of the time. Remember that lots of these are also not necessarily advertised. One place outright told me "We don't really do the best job of getting the word out, but we always have money to take people. Your only concern should be who here you want to work with." Its tougher if geographically restricted and tougher than it used to be with the current grant funding situation, but I'd hardly call it bad. This is where networking pays off - contact the bigshot multi-R01 types you've met over the years and ask. Check NIH Reporter for T32s relevant to what you study. Its a tougher sell, but the nice thing about research is you can always write your own ticket. I'm pretty sure just about every lab would love a post-doc who can pay their own salary😉

I do think its somewhat easier for me being on the health side since it opens more funding doors. Someone interested in say, gifted evaluations, is going to have a much rougher time. Yet in all honesty I've never heard of someone with a decent CV who was willing to move not being able to secure a solid post-doc. Not all secure their ideal post-doc, some might involve more "project management" and Nth author stuff, etc. Remember that unlike internship, this is NOT something that is required for all students and many people are quite happy to remove themselves from the pool of competition for research post-docs and would never consider applying. Also remember that you are NOT limited to clinical psychologists! Learn relevant techniques from cognitive/social folks. Work with an MD. Work with a geneticist. One of my best post-doc options (and the one I'm probably going to pursue if I don't stay where I landed for internship) is interested in me in part just because I'll be a clinician and that will open doors for them. Obviously that can introduce some challenges with supervision and licensure, but I figure I can negotiate that with them if/when the time comes.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

Seems like the research-oriented ones are harder to find though, unless you're coming from a research-heavy internship site that offers them. Thoughts?

I agree with Ollie on this one. While this is my own personal experience, I had a few things that weren't in my favor and I Still did surprisingly well with finding and landing a research-oriented postdoc. There weren't a lot on my direct area, so I branched out to a related area with more positions (same treatment modality of research but different disorder focus). I wasn't at a research heavy internship and I only had a couple publications at the time, so I applied to 12 research postdoc positions to be safe. I got 6 interviews, and ended up with 4 offers. I was floored, to say the least. Another of my colleagues had similar experiences plus a geographic restriction, and he also landed a great postdoc. I think postdoc positions are much less competitive than internship positions in general, though I imagine it could vary by area of research. If you're willing to be flexible to widen your options, I still think you could have a shot at a research-heavy or 50-50 split position.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks for the reassurance and helpful responses 🙂

Ollie: Yes, I do worry too much so that is a fair statement to make 😉 That NIH Reporter suggestion is very helpful, thanks! I don't know if I have the types of connections that you do, so do you think that cold emailing people would work okay?

HomeworkHelper: Can I ask where you looked to find these positions?

Maybe my anxiety is just because I haven't had much luck searching... but I could definitely be looking in the wrong places!

 

[Pragma]

I did a clinical postdoc and landed an academic job. I stayed active publishing stuff while I was on the postdoc - just did it on my own time. I had saved up a handful of projects and published with some people outside of my postdoc, but also still did publish a couple of things with my postdoc supervisor and presented at a conference for them. In my case, it was a neuro postdoc following HC guidelines, so there had to be at least a small academic component. I went to a place where my neuro background was highly coveted and where they like it that I continue to practice on the side. Worked out well.

IMO, go for a research oriented one if you are going for an R1 institution, because that is going to get you better exposure to grants, more pubs, etc. But if you did a clinical one, the sky isn't falling or anything. It is pretty common in subfields like neuro. You do get licensed and that is a bonus if you go to a program that wants some clinical supervision. I've seen people go directly into academia or come from research postdocs never end up getting licensed or having trouble getting licensed because their time doesn't allow them to meet state requirements (e.g., has to be at least half time and within a certain timeframe, etc). That wouldn't be the case if your "research" postdoc involved logging a lot of clinical hours.

 

[cara susanna]

Pragma, what if you're shooting for an R2 or lower? Do you still recommend a research-oriented one? And thanks for the input 🙂

 

[Pragma]

Pragma, what if you're shooting for an R2 or lower? Do you still recommend a research-oriented one? And thanks for the input 🙂

I guess I am not sure - I am at an R2, for what it is worth.

Personally, I think things are more political than people seem to make them out to be. I've seen some people with no postdocs get R2 jobs. I think the postdoc is critical at the R1 level, but after that, it depends on the school.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I guess I am not sure - I am at an R2, for what it is worth.

Personally, I think things are more political than people seem to make them out to be. I've seen some people with no postdocs get R2 jobs. I think the postdoc is critical at the R1 level, but after that, it depends on the school.

As someone who goes back and forth between whether or not I'd be happier in an R1 or R2 setting (and honestly, I think I could probably be happy in both), this is good to know. Thanks.

 

[Pragma]

As someone who goes back and forth between whether or not I'd be happier in an R1 or R2 setting (and honestly, I think I could probably be happy in both), this is good to know. Thanks.

Depending on your research area and infrastructure needs, there may or may not be any recognizable difference between the two.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

Sure, Cara. I used a few different sources primarily: APPIC's postdoc listserv, APS's postdoc exchange, and the MIRECC/COE website for VA research postdocs. I also checked the NIH reporter as well and was open to cold-emailing if needed.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks! Do you guys think a clinical or research-oriented post-doc would be better for someone who wants to work in an AMC?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks! Do you guys think a clinical or research-oriented post-doc would be better for someone who wants to work in an AMC?

I could see either working, particularly depending on the type of AMC position you want: one that's more clinical, like T4C's, or one that's more/entirely academic, like JonSnow's. Then again, I think JS also did a clinically-oriented postdoc. My take is that a research-heavy postdoc is going to be very, very helpful for a full-on research position/career, particularly if you're hoping to go the academic route. Conversely, a clinical postdoc can be made to help you stay competitive for research-oriented positions that also entail some measure of clinical work (and/or, in the case of neuro, if you're wanting to be board-eligible). You just might have to work a bit more at setting aside the time necessary to continue publishing--much of which will likely be on nights and weekends.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

I could see either working, particularly depending on the type of AMC position you want: one that's more clinical, like T4C's, or one that's more/entirely academic, like JonSnow's. Then again, I think JS also did a clinically-oriented postdoc. My take is that a research-heavy postdoc is going to be very, very helpful for a full-on research position/career, particularly if you're hoping to go the academic route. Conversely, a clinical postdoc can be made to help you stay competitive for research-oriented positions that also entail some measure of clinical work (and/or, in the case of neuro, if you're wanting to be board-eligible). You just might have to work a bit more at setting aside the time necessary to continue publishing--much of which will likely be on nights and weekends.

I agree that either might work, especially if you have some way to get/stay involved in research if you do a fully clinical postdoc. However, to the extent possible, see if you can find positions that entail both elements as part of the position. They do exist, though their prevalence likely depends on the area of research. The MIRECC/COE positions are mostly 75% research/25% clinical, though I heard you might have to be assertive to get the 25% clinical depending on where you are. I also applied to postdoc positions at universities being paid from grants, and the positions I applied for also had a research/clinical split.

 

[Phd007]

I would agree that a research-oriented postdoc is more important if you plan on pursuing an academic career that is research heavy. This may depend on your subfield, though. I would also talk with your advisor, futureapppsy2, to see what makes sense for your subfield and research area(s).

In my case, I want a career at an R1 institution. I am on internship now and instead of doing a clinical postdoc, I decided on a 100% research postdoc. So I won't be license eligible in most states when I am done, however, having had this postdoc will make me much more competitive for R1 positions. If licensure is important, I have also heard of faculty in my subfield who get supervision during their first year or two that enables them to apply for and obtain licensure. This is the route I plan to take, if needed.

 

[member978]

If licensure is important, I have also heard of faculty in my subfield who get supervision during their first year or two that enables them to apply for and obtain licensure.

Anecdotally, I am a student at an R1 and one of our new faculty members took this route and it didn't seem to be a problem at all.

 

[EmotRegulation]

The main problem with doing a purely clinical postdoc is if you end up with large gaps in productivity, though that's not usually a problem with a one-year clinical postdoc. Our new faculty member did a clinical postdoc year, for example, and that didn't hurt the hiring process. If you can keep working on projects/publications, shouldn't be a problem. If, however, you are lower in numbers of pubs, doing a research postdoc (or one with some research) can help with networking, potentially with grant-writing training, and getting pubs under review, all of which could be helpful in securing an academic gig. I'd say that research-focused postdocs are still a better idea for an R2/SLAC academic position because you'll be able to work on a stream of research which can hopefully give you momentum into your academic job. Both R2 and SLACs are still going to require research to some degree, and these jobs are offered to people with better research CVs, even if the primary focus of the job is teaching (which is ****ed up, but that's the way it is). Getting enough hours toward licensure shouldn't be a problem in most places, even if that's done after starting an academic gig (unless it's for a clinic director position or something, but that'd be silly to take on as a new assistant prof anyway), so that shouldn't be a reason to pursue a clinical postdoc over a research one.

 

[Pragma]

I would definitely not assume that getting your postdoc hours for licensure would be a breeze as a faculty member. I have known people who did research postdocs and had problems. There may be some cases where it is as simple as just paying someone for supervision, but states vary and your University, if they hired you without a license, doesn't care about your license (unless you were going to supervise students).

Things working against you: Time, possible University policies about outside employment activities (if you need to work at least half time, for example, and your contract only allows you to work 20% outside), and how you are perceived as a tenure-track faculty member that is moonlighting doing other stuff when you should be being more productive. You may have departments that are supportive of your efforts and may even help out (e.g., see some students via the counseling center to get the hours), but you also may have systematic factors that would make it very difficult for you. I got licensed first, but it would not have been possible for me to get my licensure hours in accordance with my state's regulations after I was employed by the University, unless I obtained special approval to work that much outside of the University. I suppose if I did it unpaid (which would suck), I'd maybe be able to swing it.

When you are on the tenure track, the powers that be don't care about your license, unless it is directly related to your work duties. They probably will care about you doing things other than working at the University, because if you are seen as distracted from your primary tasks, that may not be viewed favorably. Just a word of caution - don't assume anything.

 

[EmotRegulation]

Yeah, always best to avoid assumptions! What is necessary for licensure varies by state, and opportunities for supervised experience vary widely by program. When I was on the academic job market (during internship, without doing a post-doc), all of the places I interviewed would have given me time/space/supervision to pursue licensure, because all of them wanted it for supervisory purposes. I assume that places who wanted someone license-ready weeded out people like me who didn't have the requisite hours for immediate licensure. Didn't hurt me in getting a job, but it certainly could hurt for those who have a particular geographic region they want to live in, or a particular state, or for institutions not as friendly to pre-licensed folks. The place I ended up at let me accrue supervised hours on campus without much of a demand on my time, as the requirements in this state aren't particularly strict. Plus....pro of getting licensed after getting an academic job? Being able to pay for study materials and the test fee with start-up costs!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I could see either working, particularly depending on the type of AMC position you want: one that's more clinical, like T4C's, or one that's more/entirely academic, like JonSnow's. Then again, I think JS also did a clinically-oriented postdoc.

I think the key is to stay productive during your post-doc/fellowship year(s) if you go with a more clinically oriented position. It is important that you are on the same page with the program, as clinical demands of the position may/often encroach on the research time. Keep collaborations going, try and work on manuscripts, etc. I type that…but my productivity was….nada, as I got crushed by clinical responsibilities; lesson learned.