Doing surgery leaves out basic science research?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Gotti

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
69
Reaction score
0
Hey guys,
I was wondering if doing a surgical residency will really reduce a MD/PHd's chances of doing basic science research in the future. I was really surprised by how much I loved my surgery rotation, but given the longer hours, longer overall residency, and the emphasis on technique and not the pathophysiology, it seems that basic science research would become more difficult to do in the future of my career if I did pick surgery residency. I am concerned because I find basic science more fulfilling.

Members don't see this ad.
 
While interviewing I met a few people who were both surgeons and scientists.

One thing they all claimed to possess was an insane ability to fit it all into their schedules. I think if you want to do surgery AND have a successful research career, it's possible but will require a lot of sacrifices.
 
Hey guys,
I was wondering if doing a surgical residency will really reduce a MD/PHd's chances of doing basic science research in the future. I was really surprised by how much I loved my surgery rotation, but given the longer hours, longer overall residency, and the emphasis on technique and not the pathophysiology, it seems that basic science research would become more difficult to do in the future of my career if I did pick surgery residency. I am concerned because I find basic science more fulfilling.
I'm sure it depends on the field. I met an MD/PhD transplant surgeon who did his PhD in immunology. That was a pretty neat way to combine the two. If you're doing rotations, you're already done with your PhD, right? What is your PhD in? Maybe we can come up with some surgical applications.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
While interviewing I met a few people who were both surgeons and scientists.

One thing they all claimed to possess was an insane ability to fit it all into their schedules. I think if you want to do surgery AND have a successful research career, it's possible but will require a lot of sacrifices.

Just out of curiosity (I don't want to do surgery myself), but how do these people balance their schedules? Seems like it wouldn't be possible to do the "standard" 80% research and 20% medicine if one actually wanted to be a decent surgeon. How many hours per week do they typically do in surgery vs. science?
 
Hey guys,
I was wondering if doing a surgical residency will really reduce a MD/PHd's chances of doing basic science research in the future. I was really surprised by how much I loved my surgery rotation, but given the longer hours, longer overall residency, and the emphasis on technique and not the pathophysiology, it seems that basic science research would become more difficult to do in the future of my career if I did pick surgery residency. I am concerned because I find basic science more fulfilling.

You will occasinally find some people who are successful scientists and surgeons.

However, from what I've seen, most surgery profs that do research essentially have their name attached to a lab and really have little input as to what happens there. Their schedule is in general far too bust to be interrupted with research.

Then there are a lot of other surgery profs who do really shotty research- and most of it is clinical anyway.

Unless you want to add extra years to you residency, you will in no way be connected to science during that long stretch of time.

Bottom line is, of all the MSTPs I've known that have gone into surgery/surgery subspecialty, NONE have continued to do research.
 
My $0.02 basically sums up everything else said in this thread.

My appointment is in the Dept of Surgery, Div of Transplantation. It's a lot of immunology (for obvious reasons), molecular & cell biology.

Most of the MD/PhD surgeons I know do Tx, sorry I can't think of any other examples for you.

It's entirely doable as long as you don't mind 12-14 hr days being the norm, and have an uncanny knack of integrating about a million things going on at the same time.
 
Here's the story I heard from the Colorado MD/PhD meeting (last year?)...

A big name surgery program director was at a panel discussion on residency options for MD/PhDs. He talked about how his program loved to get MD/PhDs because research was built into the residency and the MD/PhDs always became the chief residents in his program and were overall excellent.

Supposedly a certain administrator I know raised his hand at the end and asked "So how many of your MD/PhD residents went on to have primarily research careers?" -- The answer -- "0".
 
The few MD/PhD surgeons I have met were still very active in both fields... as others metioned it's all about time management. In particular, the one I talked to most recently really was pushing for MORE MD/PhD surgeons who still maintain basic science careers. IIRC he said he has trained a few in his lab in the past during their surg. residencies.

However, I think this was one of the cases above mentioned that it was his lab, but he wasn't really "active" in it persay due to his schedule, but then again once you have an established lab running like clockwork, you really don't get involved in the nitty gritty details of the actual research - right?
 
The one MD/PhD I know that matched into surgery became a path resident after 1 yr, because of the difficulties described above. It's possible, but difficult.

You should try and figure out what specifically is attracting you to surgery, then look and see of other more research-friendly specialties can fulfill that need. If it's procedures, there are lots of specialties that can be procedure heavy - GI, urology, IR, path, etc. Perhaps one of these specialties can allow you to fulfill both your clinical and research needs. If not, then do surgery, but at least you explored all of your options.
 
The way to justify the Phd for such surgeons who are not seriously doing research, I guess, is that he contributes his "scientific acumen" to clinical practice when he questions clinical practices. So nothing's really a waste if you want a positive spin on it.
 
Wouldn't biomed engineering be a really good PhD field for a physician-scientist surgeon? Making surgical devices and such...

The way to justify the Phd for such surgeons who are not seriously doing research, I guess, is that he contributes his "scientific acumen" to clinical practice when he questions clinical practices. So nothing's really a waste if you want a positive spin on it.
 
The way to justify the Phd for such surgeons who are not seriously doing research, I guess, is that he contributes his "scientific acumen" to clinical practice when he questions clinical practices. So nothing's really a waste if you want a positive spin on it.

I can't disagree with this perspective strongly enough. A practicing physician operating on patients can not and should not be a scientist while practicing, with the exception of collecting data that does not interfere with accepted treatments or performing experiments outside of/on top of existing accepted treatments.

If someone is trained as well as a scientist, yet is a clinician 100% of the time, they are in essence a clinician. I don't understand how scientific training helps you to be a clinician. If anything, your knowledge of the literature can be harmful to the patient as you may be enticed to practice cutting edge medicine that has not yet been evaluated thoroughly enough.

A prime example of this is the early adoption of thrombolytic therapy in the setting of acute/hyperacute cerebral ischemia. This was adopted by the big name academic centers early on in the development of the current "3 hour window" protocols and academic neurologists were strongly pushing tPA/streptokinase for stroke treatment. Unfortunately, as a result overall it looked like more patients were dying in academic hospitals versus private hospitals during those early years. A major contributor to this it turned out was this overuse of tPA. It made great sense to use it scientifically and you can see very dramatic cases of tPA helping people. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to flesh out the nuances of when and how to use drugs. This underscores the fact that relying on early scientific reports and anecdotes to treat patients can hurt them more than it helps. Waiting for consensus statements from societies and such for adopting new treatments is the safest, and most accepted way, to approach these dilemmas. Exceptions are rapidly evolving procedural fields such as rad onc or interventional radiology, but even then these are clinical decisions that are being made, not scientific ones.

My point is that the PhD is still pretty much a waste of time if you become primarily or even mostly a clinician. It's a waste of government and academic resources designed to produce investigators and other scientists. It could also be a waste of your personal time if you are not heavily invested in research.

As for device engineering, the view of the MD/PhD program is usually to produce scientists to find new knowledge. For that reason there's significant bias out there against purely engineering projects. It's still somewhat common because there are many BE labs and projects that use engineering to investigate basic questions. I'm not saying this is right (I'm in an engineering lab myself), but that's how it is.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I can't disagree with this perspective strongly enough. A practicing physician operating on patients can not and should not be a scientist while practicing, with the exception of collecting data that does not interfere with accepted treatments or performing experiments outside of/on top of existing accepted treatments.

If someone is trained as well as a scientist, yet is a clinician 100% of the time, they are in essence a clinician. I don't understand how scientific training helps you to be a clinician. If anything, your knowledge of the literature can be harmful to the patient as you may be enticed to practice cutting edge medicine that has not yet been evaluated thoroughly enough.

A prime example of this is the early adoption of thrombolytic therapy in the setting of acute/hyperacute cerebral ischemia. This was adopted by the big name academic centers early on in the development of the current "3 hour window" protocols and academic neurologists were strongly pushing tPA/streptokinase for stroke treatment. Unfortunately, as a result overall it looked like more patients were dying in academic hospitals versus private hospitals during those early years. A major contributor to this it turned out was this overuse of tPA. It made great sense to use it scientifically and you can see very dramatic cases of tPA helping people. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to flesh out the nuances of when and how to use drugs. This underscores the fact that relying on early scientific reports and anecdotes to treat patients can hurt them more than it helps. Waiting for consensus statements from societies and such for adopting new treatments is the safest, and most accepted way, to approach these dilemmas. Exceptions are rapidly evolving procedural fields such as rad onc or interventional radiology, but even then these are clinical decisions that are being made, not scientific ones.

My point is that the PhD is still pretty much a waste of time if you become primarily or even mostly a clinician. It's a waste of government and academic resources designed to produce investigators and other scientists. It could also be a waste of your personal time if you are not heavily invested in research.

As for device engineering, the view of the MD/PhD program is usually to produce scientists to find new knowledge. For that reason there's significant bias out there against purely engineering projects. It's still somewhat common because there are many BE labs and projects that use engineering to investigate basic questions. I'm not saying this is right (I'm in an engineering lab myself), but that's how it is.

Hi Neuronix,

I tried really hard to play devil’s advocate and to disagree with anything you’ve said but I basically can’t.

PhD training puts us in a privileged position to make scientific contributions to our respective clinical fields; if we fail to make those contributions then I agree that we have essentially wasted the PhD.

I will say though that I disagree with the part in bold (depending on how extremely you believe this). Supposing we approach this question as idealistically as possible... I think it's perfectly reasonable to apportion the percentage of time to research vs. clinical practice according to one's ability to optimally benefit each arena, i.e., if a physician-scientist ends up spending 40% time doing research and 60% time in practice, I wouldn't necessarily call this waste. I would just wonder how productive that 40% was over the course of one's career. Similarly, I would be curious about how effective one's surgical practice was with only 60% time commitment to the clinic/OR.
 
My point is that the PhD is still pretty much a waste of time if you become primarily or even mostly a clinician. It's a waste of government and academic resources designed to produce investigators and other scientists.

PhD training puts us in a privileged position to make scientific contributions to our respective clinical fields; if we fail to make those contributions then I agree that we have essentially wasted the PhD.

Sorry to quote you out of context, because I agree with you about this on an individual level, but I'm also going to suggest that there is some value to the government in producing MD/PhD's, even if they are purely clinicians. After all, it is a good thing if the Chief of Surgery (or other people with higher responsibility in an organization, please forgive my ignorance) have a solid understanding of what research is, how it is performed, and why it matters to their department.
 
Hey guys,
I was wondering if doing a surgical residency will really reduce a MD/PHd's chances of doing basic science research in the future. I was really surprised by how much I loved my surgery rotation, but given the longer hours, longer overall residency, and the emphasis on technique and not the pathophysiology, it seems that basic science research would become more difficult to do in the future of my career if I did pick surgery residency. I am concerned because I find basic science more fulfilling.

Just to respond to the original post, I don't think a surgical residency will necessarily reduce an MD/PhD's chances of doing basic science in the future. I just think that a surgical career puts very real limits on the amount of time you can spend in the lab once in practice - but this is extremely variable post-residency and I think it comes down to how much you really want to be a surgical scientist.

The bottom line is this: to be a respectable surgeon, you have to operate. To be a respectable scientist, you have to be in the lab. You can't be in two places at once - but then who is going to lead scientific advances in the surgical fields?

Surgeons have been wearing multiple hats since the beginning. Peter Black, MD, PhD wrote an interesting article about the challenges faced by academic neurosurgeons attempting this balancing act.

But academic surgery absolutely demands it... so who's gonna do the research? The MD/PhD surgeon definitely has an opportunity to fill a gap here - and as far as I can tell, no one has figured out a perfect approach for filling it - but if you're passionate about surgery and you're passionate about the bench, then I think one just finds a way.

QofQuimica mentioned a PhD immunologist who went into transplant surgery - we have a great one here at Sinai. There are other examples; just gotta look for 'em - or become one.

Good :luck:!
 
I would argue against Neuronix et al. above and venture that it is possible to be a surgeon and a good scientist... provided you have a narrow clinical focus. I don't know any general surgeons doing good basic research. However, I know some that have subspecialized following general surgery, or that began in a subspecialty (ENT/Plastics/Ophtho) that found a good balance of research and clinic, and are successful in both. For example, some of the docs that trained under Michael Harrison at UCSF (Father of Fetal Surgery) have gone on to be successful researchers. Mike Longaker (Plastics) and Tim Crombleholme (Peds/Fetal Surg) both churn out a stream of basic and translational papers that have moved their fields forward. As an MSIII I've seen both sides of Dr. Crombleholme's work - last month I helped with a cervical teratoma resection, and observed him perform Selective Fetoscopic Laser Coagulation for twin-twin transfusion syndrome, both very specialized surgical cases, and a few weeks later visited with one of his research fellows modeling congenital diaphragmatic hernia in mice to study basic pathways of that disorder. This is a brief example, but there are a few like this at most large academic medical centers. By operating within a narrow patient population, you can maintain your skills, and by whittling down the number of 'bread and butter' cases you have more time for other pursuits. I also think it helps to surround yourself with a good research team, and collaborate with basic scientists as much as possible.

I think that in some instances surgeons have a leg up on dedicated basic researchers because they have the initial access to rare patient samples and are able to observe the broad effects that a disease process has on the patient directly. Congenital malformations of infancy, and malignancy requiring surgical intervention are both excellent examples of this. The problem is that surgeons need to be familiar with not just the basic science known to be involved with a malformation, but they must know how to ask the right questions and design experiments to expand upon that knowledge. This is what we're being trained for as MD/PhDs. Additionally, in some of these cases it is the surgeon that is best positioned to translate the basic findings back to the clinic (eg. tissue engineering). I don't want to start a debate about the future role of MD/PhDs, however it can be argued that we are in an excellent position to conduct translational (bench to bedside) research.

I'm obviously biased, and will disclose that I am pursuing a surgical specialty for residency. I fully intend to narrow my focus via fellowship(s) and continue research then. I would also add, that prior to rotating through surgery I hoped I wouldn't like it so, because I also thought that it was not feasible to be a surgeon and a productive scientist. I've seen it done, though, so now I'm going for it.
 
I would argue against Neuronix et al. above and venture that it is possible to be a surgeon and a good scientist... provided you have a narrow clinical focus. I don't know any general surgeons doing good basic research. However, I know some that have subspecialized following general surgery, or that began in a subspecialty (ENT/Plastics/Ophtho) that found a good balance of research and clinic, and are successful in both. For example, some of the docs that trained under Michael Harrison at UCSF (Father of Fetal Surgery) have gone on to be successful researchers. Mike Longaker (Plastics) and Tim Crombleholme (Peds/Fetal Surg) both churn out a stream of basic and translational papers that have moved their fields forward. As an MSIII I've seen both sides of Dr. Crombleholme's work - last month I helped with a cervical teratoma resection, and observed him perform Selective Fetoscopic Laser Coagulation for twin-twin transfusion syndrome, both very specialized surgical cases, and a few weeks later visited with one of his research fellows modeling congenital diaphragmatic hernia in mice to study basic pathways of that disorder. This is a brief example, but there are a few like this at most large academic medical centers. By operating within a narrow patient population, you can maintain your skills, and by whittling down the number of 'bread and butter' cases you have more time for other pursuits. I also think it helps to surround yourself with a good research team, and collaborate with basic scientists as much as possible.

I think that in some instances surgeons have a leg up on dedicated basic researchers because they have the initial access to rare patient samples and are able to observe the broad effects that a disease process has on the patient directly. Congenital malformations of infancy, and malignancy requiring surgical intervention are both excellent examples of this. The problem is that surgeons need to be familiar with not just the basic science known to be involved with a malformation, but they must know how to ask the right questions and design experiments to expand upon that knowledge. This is what we're being trained for as MD/PhDs. Additionally, in some of these cases it is the surgeon that is best positioned to translate the basic findings back to the clinic (eg. tissue engineering). I don't want to start a debate about the future role of MD/PhDs, however it can be argued that we are in an excellent position to conduct translational (bench to bedside) research.

I'm obviously biased, and will disclose that I am pursuing a surgical specialty for residency. I fully intend to narrow my focus via fellowship(s) and continue research then. I would also add, that prior to rotating through surgery I hoped I wouldn't like it so, because I also thought that it was not feasible to be a surgeon and a productive scientist. I've seen it done, though, so now I'm going for it.


Of course it can be done, but you also must realized that the deck is stacked against you. This will be my last post in this thread, and I wanted to share an exchange I had a few days ago with a friend of mine who is starting his 5th (!) year of residency in Plastics.
I saw him in the hallway and casually asked him what was up- he wanted to vent because he was really flustered with his current position. As someone who had done a PhD in a molecular lab (on fruit flies), he was really nostalgic and wanted to return to basic science. Of course he wanted to correlate it with his residency focus- but he wants to do so from a basic science perspective and in a fly model.
He's already getting offers from several institutions for jobs in academia... only no one wants him to work on his flies. The private hospital would want him to pick up the slack and do the cases that the more senior faculty don't want to do, and his current academic institution will require that his research focus is minimal to allow for adequate OR time. OF COURSE all institutions want him to continue to do research- they just want him to do the "easy" kind- case reports and clinical research. While no one specificially says that he CAN'T do something, they constantly tell his what he SHOULD DO, basically the type of research he's not interested in. Only one institution would really allow him to do the kind of work he's interested in (a very prominent place, and very few MD/PhDs would have this type of deal) but they would require that he do an additional fellowship before being granted the opportunity, and he's pretty burned out on residency. Essentially he feels trapped and that he can't do the type of work he's really interested in, in part because of his residency choice. It's bad enough that now he's seriously regretting going into plastics, and not because he doesn't like it.
I'm sure in the end things will work out for him, but I don't think his dillema is uncommon for those going into surgical specialties who still want to do science. ALthough I do think, in general, that most MD/PhDs who go into surgical specialties will ultimately NOT face this problem because they will give up the notion of basic science research alltogether.

And if you think that surgeons have special privilages to specimens... don't forget they really give them to pathology, although in some instances the surgeons can keep their own libraries.

Good luck.
 
To the OP, yes you can be a surgeon and a scientist - and do both well. What you will find, however, is that your scope of practice is limited to what you study in the lab. I am an MD/PhD, with my current research in hearing preservation. And have accepted an academic appointment upon completing my residency with a guarantee of 50% research time. My practice is expected to be in otology. This leaves 2.5 days in the lab, 1.5 days clinic, 1 day OR.

There are other surgeon/scientists at my institution with similar arrangements - one is an endocrine surgeon who does bench work on thyroid cancer, MEN, etc. One is a vascular surgeon looking at angiogenesis. Another is an orthopod looking at osteoporosis.

What you do have to sacrifice is 1) time and 2) money. I will not make what my clinical only colleagues do, but then again, I will make more than my PhD only colleagues.

There are plenty of opportunities for the surgeon/scientist in academia. You will not find it difficult to get support from a chairman to guarantee time for your research interests. Residency has been difficult to maintain bench skills/innovations in the area but has been manageable. I end up spending time in the lab on lighter rotations.

The NIH has several mechanisms to support surgeon/scientists - the same for physician/scientists. Only when we apply for K08s, R03s, etc, we are in a much smaller pool of applicants and, at least in my NIH institute, the success rate for MD/PhD surgeons is nearly 75% (vs something like 30-35% for my medicine colleagues).

Regardless, don't think that a bench and surgical careers are mutually exclusive - they are not.

To gbwillner - I hear you regarding your friends experience, however I will point out that just like any skill, those obtained in graduate school need to be maintained. This means getting actively involved in a bench research project in residency, publishing and setting oneself up as an independent investigator as a resident. I, too, am a molecular biologist and my research currently is not in the same model I used in graduate school - but a Northern is a Northern, and the techniques your friend developed could have been transfered to a field within Plastics (the molecular biology of wound healing, for example). At this point he/she would need to start all over again to get preliminary data to support their own research interests - a process that could take several years.

Which gets me to the last point. Many MD/PhDs, and not just surgical ones, see the labor involved in the lab, the crazy R01 acceptance rates (currently ~10%) and the fact that they could make more $$$ in the clinic. The $$$ differential is far more pronounced in the surgical specialties. Private practice for an internist is ~160k per year, vs $325k for an ENT. A physician/scientist salary at an academic place may be 120-150k/yr. The internist sacrifices 10-40k/yr, the ENT sacrifices 170-200k/yr. Over a 30 year career, the ENt is sacrificing >5 Million, plus interest and profits. That, IMHO, is the reason many choose to not continue their research interests.
 
Leforte,
You answered my question almost exactly to what I wanted to hear. I also want to do ENT and thought that I could focus my expertise to one single area of the head and neck. I think all the ochlear nerves and receptors are a great area for study both clinically and in basic research where it won a Nobel prize a few years back. But I also think mucous films in the sinuses are cool and research potentially would cure the common cold that leads to trillions in lost production. Money is not an issue for me and its not that I have it already.
 
Per the discussion about money, my current PI is an MD/PhD who changed from surgical pathology to pathology during his residency. He did this because he felt he could not be a quality researcher and a quality surgical pathologist due to the time commitment of surgical path.

However, he makes a considerable amount of money because he holds a patent on the lipid profile that is used to evaluate relative serum levels of HDL, LDL, VLDL, etc. He was also head of his department for a number of years and pulled in 500k/yr for those years, which is well above the average salaries for almost every surgical specialty and subspecialty.

If money is a factor in a decision, there are two things to consider: market size and price per unit. His patent distributes his service to a huge market (entire population of US) with a low price per unit (a few cents of royalties). Being head of the department also distributed his services to a larger market than the typical surgeon (everyone who visited the hospital with atherosclerosis vs. patients operated on by a specific vascular surgeon) but his price per unit was lower (small overhead per patient visit vs. huge chunk of cost of surgical procedure).

The debate about sacrificing money to pursue a career as a physician scientist tries to shove all physician/scientists into a pidgeon hole. It is the power obtained by earning a PhD and MD that is the key to one's financial success. This power is only tapped through smart business decisions though. Treating a few patients and conducting research without a strong market position is a path to intellectual happiness at the expense of financial returns. However, coupled with a strong business model (which is not mutually exclusive from sound, good-willed science) physiciant scientists can become the wealthiest individuals at their institutions, far out-earning most surgeons.
 
Per the discussion about money, my current PI is an MD/PhD who changed from surgical pathology to pathology during his residency.

Just to clarify for those who may not know about pathology residency training:
There is no "surgical pathology" residency, just pathology residency. Surgical pathology is an integral part of the 'anatomic pathology' side of pathology, and is what most pathologists (or at least a large percentage of pathologists) do. There is another "side" of pathology called 'clinical pathology.' Clinical pathology comprises areas like clinical chemistry, microbiology, hematology, blood banking/transfusion medicine, molecular testing, cytogenetics, etc. Most pathologists are trained (and get board certification) in both anatomic pathology (AP) and clinical pathology (CP). There are a minority who do one or the other. What probably happened in the above scenario is that TheWhizard's PI decided that he didn't want/need surgical pathology to be a component of his future career so he switched his training track in pathology residency from AP/CP combined training (or possibly AP only training) to CP only training. AP/CP is a 4 year residency, while AP or CP only is 3 years. For those that know for sure they only want to receive training in AP or CP (or one of associated subspecialty areas), this can be advantageous because it shaves off a year of residency. On the other hand, though, you have to be really sure that you are willing to forego the extra "marketability" that typically goes with being AP/CP trained.

Anyway, as a current MD/PhD pathology resident, I just felt the need to clarify that statement a bit.
 
However, coupled with a strong business model (which is not mutually exclusive from sound, good-willed science) physiciant scientists can become the wealthiest individuals at their institutions, far out-earning most surgeons.

Your anecdote describes someone who is likely one of the top 1% of the mostly research based physician-scientist wage earners.
 
At the LIJ North Shore hospital, the residency in neurosurgery has a component of basic research (a protected year) included in the 5 year plan. So, I think research is actually encouraged.
 
Top