Doing therapy as a psychiatrist

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brightness

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I am a psychology major who is very passionate about the role of medication in mental health care. I also feel strongly about therapy, however, and I think a combination of the two is the ultimate care. I want to provide both services to patients, which is why I've been considering being a psychiatric NP or PA, because 'everybody' (you know, people I know) says that psychiatrists only write prescriptions and send people on their way. I also know that clinical psychologists may someday get the right to prescribe, but I think the medical knowledge is important.

I'd love your opinion on this.

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If you want to combine meds and therapy, psychiatric training is really the way to go - but be sure to seek out a residency program that truly emphasizes psychotherapy since some only pay lip-service to the ACGME requirement.
 
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If you want to combine meds and therapy, psychiatric training is really the way to go - but be sure to seek out a residency program that truly emphasizes psychotherapy since some only pay lip-service to the ACGME requirement.


I really appreciate the info, since i thought that most psychiatrists just did medication management.
 
I am a psychology major who is very passionate about the role of medication in mental health care.

Can you tell me why? I mean, it's pretty obvious by now that the long-term results of the psychiatric meds suck, that even the short-term efficiency has still not been sufficiently proven, and that the only reason why the whole business is still going on is the exorbitant amounts of money involved? What is there to be passionate about?

I think as a rule psychiatrists do only prescribe meds, although they claim they do therapy as well. As one residency program director put it to me during the interview: "You need to be proficient in psychotherapy in order to convince people to take medications that you prescribe".

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
I mean, it's pretty obvious by now that the long-term results of the psychiatric meds suck, that even the short-term efficiency has still not been sufficiently proven, and that the only reason why the whole business is still going on is the exorbitant amounts of money involved?

Please provide links to data or give names of published articles supporting your argument that the short term efficiency (efficacy?) has not been sufficiently proven. Other than your website.
 
Please provide links to data or give names of published articles supporting your argument that the short term efficiency (efficacy?) has not been sufficiently proven. Other than your website.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in terms. Strictly speaking, I was probably talking about effectiveness - according to wikipedia, an impact of a tested factor in real-world situations, as opposed to efficacy, which is a measure of results of a controlled clinical trial. But even the efficacy is not obvious.

The basic idea is that our knowledge of the chemistry of mind and the effects of the psychiatric medications is based on incorrect information supplied by for-profit research. There are many articles and books on the subject, except they are being ignored by official psychiatry. This is one excellent article:
Scott, Timothy. Tricks of the Trade. Ethical Human Psychology & Psychiatry, Summer2006, Vol. 8 Issue 2, p133-146, 14p; (AN 21820427)

Also, a tremendous work of summarizing 50 years of psychiatric drugs research is done by Dr. Valenstein in his book “Blaming the Brain - the Truth about Drugs and Mental Illness”. This is an excellent book, very sound, with references and footnotes. I highly recommend it.

Let me just give you one quick commonsense example. How many independent contemporary RCTs of antipsychotics or antidepressants are you aware of, in which they would not use a 'washout' method to create a placebo group? But this effectively renders any results meaningless a priori, because the placebo group is going through withdrawal from psychiatric meds! Even under these favourable conditions, the efficacy gap rarely exceeds 10 or 20 per cent.

Please read the aforementioned article, and let me know your opinion.

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skpsycho (http://skpsycho.wordpress.com/)
 
Unfortunately I don't think most of us have access to that particular journal, d/t the controversey behind its founder to name one of many other reasons. From their website, here's their description of themselves:
Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry (EHPP) is a peer-reviewed journal that publishes original research reports, reviews, essays, book reviews, commentaries, and case reports examining all the ramifications of the idea that emotional distress is due to an underlying organic disease that is best treated with pharmacological therapy. This oversimplified view of human nature permeates virtually every area of our society including medicine, business, law, education, politics, and the media.


Now I think a journal with this goal in mind is itself biased at its face towards a certain extreme, which is fine. We need varying voices for quality discussions. But somehow I suspect that this journal is filled primarily with editorials/letters exploring the philosophical issues with medicating the public, rather than clear critiques of the science behind it. That's fine and dandy, but let's not dismiss published research with opinion pieces. At least show the articles specifically showing problems in the analysis of well-designed unbiased studies. Give me some of those references, or send out some pdf's. The problem in my opinion with the extremist anti-psychiatry front is that they believe we're trying to control people's mind with medications, as if we have some grander agenda to subvert the world's population. Or that the whole system is driven by drug companies for a profit. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of money involved and clear selective analyses in some papers, as well as the direct-to-consumer advertising, but that doesn't make psychiatrists the cause of this, nor the field of psychiatry. We need drug companies to research drugs, or else we'd still be giving arsenic to psychotics.

The keen SCIENTISTS and Physicians will know how to properly analyze publications and see through shoddy conclusions drawn from poor efficacy. I try with my colleagues to do that all the time, especially when a slick pharma sales rep is trying to pass on their conclusions from articles they don't fully understand. Show me that equal level of understanding. Show me an analysis of the unbiased studies (the ones funded by NIMH where's there's no investment or bias for one drug or another- STAR-D, CATIE, etc.). Please go read those studies, then come back with clear critiques and we'll continue our discussion.

As for the washout period issue, that pre-supposes that everyone enrolling in a study were on a medication beforehand necessitating a need for a washout, which is on the whole VERY untrue.

Furthermore, while there is such a phenomenon with withdrawl from some antidepressants (SSRI discontinuation syndrome, paxil being the most notorious d/t the short half-life), this doesn't mean that everyone experiences withdrawl symptoms. And show me the literature showing that this withdrawl that you're referring to is even in the criteria analyzed in these studies. Most withdrawl symptoms recognized in SSRI discontinuation syndrome include anxiety and flu-like symptoms, rather than direct measures of mood such as measured in the Beck Depression inventory (though there is some measure of irritability). These symptoms are also particular for discontinuation of short half-life medications, rather than a categorical aspect of all anti-depressants.

Now while I think there is a schism in psychiatry with one part extremist towards biologic reductionism, it is by no means the majority. Correlation doesn't mean causation, and most of us know that. Altered brain chemistry is not the cause of mental illness, happening independently of many other things, but the chemistry itself is instead a manifestation, and in changing it some part of the illness is also changed. We use medications as tools, often to make someone functional enough to survive and then actually take advantage of therapy without losing their jobs, homes, families, friends, other support systems.

Once again, if you want to go fix all of western society including the nuclear family, centralized government with underfunding of many public resources, mass media propagation of unhealthy body image and idealization of greed and materialism, pollution, obesity, wireless technology with lack of personal boundaries/space/unplugged time, child abuse/neglect, desensitization to violence, no money, high stress, lack of sleep, to name just a few, then go ahead. Those are all real problems that help to make people mentally ill. But many of us live just fine in this world despite all these issues, and when we don't then one must conclude that to whatever degree some internal part of a person isn't functioning right, and that changing that person may help them to cope better, whether that be with teaching relaxation techniques, or giving them a little ativan so they don't have a full blown panic attack and drive into a telephone pole.
 
I mean, it's pretty obvious by now that the long-term results of the psychiatric meds suck, that even the short-term efficiency has still not been sufficiently proven,

As much as it pains me to agree with someone who uses "Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry" as a legitimate reference (I concur with nitemagi about the clear bias of said journal), skpsycho's post reminded me of an article from NEJM a couple months back:

"Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy"
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/358/3/252

Unfortunately this bad news does come from a widely respected and reputable journal. It honestly disappoints me as a soon-to-be psych resident--I think we all truly want to be able to offer our patients effective therapies for their illnesses, so it's very hard to accept that the "evidence" we've been basing our clinical approaches on is incomplete at best, deliberately skewed at worst.

By the way, I'm a believer in pharmacotherapy plus psychotherapeutic approaches, in general, so I don't mean this as a bash to pharmacotherapy at all.
 
Kind of common sense though. Or at least it should be.

This article looked at studies and showed the trend that basically bad studies are underpublished or reworded to sound positive. It doesn't speak to the situations or not of efficacy of any one medication vs. another. It doesn't even say drugs don't work.

I believe we should all be very critical thinkers when it comes to analyzing the scientific literature, and especially those funded by the drug companies. Well hate to say it...but duh!

But let's face it- sometimes that's all we have to go on, so we have to critique the hell out of it and recognize that it is likely biased, and in this small sample population maybe it could be more effective. Do you think I prescribe lexapro or invega to anyone as a first line drug, just because a sales rep handed me some studies saying that it works? Absolutely not. I cite these drugs because before I even read the literature I'm doubtful, simply from a pathophysiologic mechanism. We have to consistently acknowledge that we know less than we want to know, and that we have to make the best clinical decisions with limited information. I leave myself open to the possibility. Are there aliens on other planets? I don't know, but I'm open to the possibility knowing pure probability. Is an enantiomer of celexa more effective and worth prescribing than the original, even though it's pricier and still protected by patent? I'm doubtful and never use it 1st or even 3rd line, but I could make an argument the same way thalidomide is seriously teratogenic, but turns out only one enantiomer of it, the other being therapeutic.

Jeez, when did I become the advocate for prescribing meds? I trained as a hypnotherapist before med school. Cripes.
 
But this effectively renders any results meaningless a priori, because the placebo group is going through withdrawal from psychiatric meds! Even under these favourable conditions, the efficacy gap rarely exceeds 10 or 20 per cent.

Actually I recall reading the argument that antidepressent studies is that are flawed because they don't use an active placebo. i.e. the placebo effect of the drug is enhanced because of its side effects (ones that are minor enough to not cause discontinuation of the drug). These side effects enable subjects to predict fairly accurately that they are receiving the drug as compared to the placebo thus enhancing the drug's placebo effect.

http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/toc-jul15-02.htm

Although others argue that unblinding is not an issue. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/183/2/102#REF4

In any case I haven't seen a good explanation from the "ADs are just placebo crowd" about why some patients will respond really well to some of these "placebos" and not others. (Those that believe ADs do something beneficial have an easier time of this.)

In terms of the OPs question - I know psychiatrists who do weekly psychotherapy with patients so yes psychiatrists do therapy. :) Said psychiatrists also used pharmacotherapy judiciously when indicated.
 
One might worry about the tardive dyskinesias and dementias that tend to take about 10 to 15 years to be acknowledged (not until the medication is out of patient, basically). One might also worry about new medications not being more *effective* than older medications - rather they are marketed as having *less side effects* (which take time to emerge as noted).

It is hard to find studies that aren't sponsered in some way by pharma. What chemists want to ruin their chances of working for pharma? I think that scepticism about medication is warranted...

It used to be the case that you had to be an MD to train as a psychotherapist. It is comparatively recently that they opened the doors to social worker and masters of councelling and clinical psychology peoples. I think that most psychiatrists don't do therapy because they don't *want* to do therapy. And / or because it is hard to make the same money giving therapy as it is giving medications. Why pay a psychiatrist n+100 when you can pay a psychologist n?
 
I can speak to the less money. Apparently at my new job for every hour per week I want to designate for therapy, I make $5000 less per year.

Dang world and its priorities.

*sigh*
 
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> Dang world and its priorities.

Though of course it is up to you what *your* prorities are. Sure it is nice to have money to do various things... But this desire to have *more* than the people around you (when those people have enough to get by)... I don't really understand that one...
 
If you magically take away my educational debt, I would gladly make the same amount as any other therapist for doing the same work. And the fact of the matter is that I am forgoing the extra cash anyway to do the work I want to do. It just hurts the pocketbook a little, which is only human.
 
Yeah. I don't know anything about the cost of education in the US... But remember clinical psychologists might well have done 4 (undergrad) +2 (masters) + 5 (doctoral school) and usually doctoral school is more like 6 or 7 or 8... But I'm sure it costs more to do a year of medicine than to do a year of psychology. But then psychologists get paid less to deliver therapy than psychiatrists get paid to deliver therapy (is that right?) So... I don't know... How much net income is reasonable to live on do people think (Once the education repayments are going out of your salary along with tax)? I guess I'm just fairly astounded at people getting so hung up on $$$. I mean if people wanted to be rich they would have studied... Pathology or something, wouldn't they???
 
> Dang world and its priorities.

Though of course it is up to you what *your* prorities are. Sure it is nice to have money to do various things... But this desire to have *more* than the people around you (when those people have enough to get by)... I don't really understand that one...

You need to understand that the spending power of your money is relative to what other people are earning. If you're a doc and you make $150K each year, but the average US income is $300K, you'll be scraping by. As salaries increase, prices of goods will go up. So being "wealthy" only occurs if you make more than other people.

If you're arguing that docs should be happy with "enough to get by" then my post is off base, but you're argument would then be fairly pointless because I don't know anyone who is in this profession without the plan to make good money.
 
If you sent Karl Marx through 21st century US med school, he would leave concerned if he could pay his loans off if he does primary care. The socialization process of medical school is something you simply can't understand unless you've been through it, and the pure anxiety that is pumped into students over money (not greed, anxiety) is perhaps irrational, but nearly impossible to shake.

By selection, those of us who went into psychiatry were some of the least money anxious people. Not because psychiatrists don't make a good living, but because making a decision to be a psychiatrist is one of the least effective means of managing Medical School Pecuniary Anxiety Syndrome. (MS-PAS, sponsored by Microsoft).

Our generation is managing the anxiety better, but we're not good at it relative to the rest of the population, and especially not compared to our academic/grad school brethren.
 
Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I guessed that people who went into psychiatry were probably less $$$ conscious than the majority of other specialist fields within medicine. And I do also understand that the cost of medical school in the US is very expensive. I surely understand that the cost would be prohibitive for me, for example. And I also understand that making those repayments would have even Karl Marx worried about meeting his loan repayments lol. Even with the student loan I've got (which wouldn't compare to the cost of a loan med students would have if they borrowed the full amount) only 1 in 4 women pay back what I've borrowed before they retire. But then... That seems to be the strategy. View it as another form of taxation and make the minimum repayments until retirement (where you aren't earning and therefore don't need to make repayments). My loan is wiped upon my death. So... But then I haven't done the math to work out whether I could pay it back sooner or whether it will be worth my while to do so. But once again... My situation is very different from all of yours, no doubt. Doesn't compare dollar wise... But then if I were to make US$150,000 per year how happy a philosopher would I be? I'd be about the best paid philosopher in the history of the world, I'd bet!

I don't know. My boyfriend tries to explain me: 'She's from a commie country'. I just... Wouldn't feel comfortable having more than I need to be comfortable / to get by when there are people living in disintegrating projects...
 
I don't know. My boyfriend tries to explain me: 'She's from a commie country'. I just... Wouldn't feel comfortable having more than I need to be comfortable / to get by when there are people living in disintegrating projects...

Comfortable is subjective, and you shouldn't feel bad that you have worked hard and succeeded in life.
 
Yeah. Med school put me about US$200,000 in debt. To repay that in 30 years (and I don't know maybe I can pay it over longer, but 30 years is what SallieMae is telling me), that is at least $800/month, which is more than my rent. I will be making about US$100,000/year starting in July. Yes, it's still a lot of money. And yes, somehow it will all work out and I will meet my obligations and fulfill myself professionally. It isn't worth another $30K/year for me not to follow my heart. If that was how I operated, why go to med school in the first place? But it's still really stressful to think about. And yes, it makes me angry that society/insurance/whomever pressures providers monetarily into emphasizing med management over therapy. It isn't that I think I as a psychiatrist should be making more than a psychologist for offering the same service. But I think that service should be more valued than it is period, no matter what the letters are behind the name of the person offering it.
 
"I don't know. My boyfriend tries to explain me: 'She's from a commie country'."

Oh ok, that explains it then. Well welcome to America, a capitalist's dream.....:laugh:
 
Yeah. Med school put me about US$200,000 in debt. To repay that in 30 years (and I don't know maybe I can pay it over longer, but 30 years is what SallieMae is telling me), that is at least $800/month, which is more than my rent. I will be making about US$100,000/year starting in July. Yes, it's still a lot of money. And yes, somehow it will all work out and I will meet my obligations and fulfill myself professionally. It isn't worth another $30K/year for me not to follow my heart. If that was how I operated, why go to med school in the first place? But it's still really stressful to think about. And yes, it makes me angry that society/insurance/whomever pressures providers monetarily into emphasizing med management over therapy. It isn't that I think I as a psychiatrist should be making more than a psychologist for offering the same service. But I think that service should be more valued than it is period, no matter what the letters are behind the name of the person offering it.

sunlioness, I really respect what you've said in this post and reading other posts on the psychiatry and psychology forum . It is great to hear that someone is actually going for job satisfication and taking, what some would consider, a finicial hit. With that said, I've spoken with quite a few psychiatrist who have been able to work out situations where they are doing therapy at least two half-days a week and still pulling in 180K without working over 45 to 50 hours per week. I'm sure you can find the best of both worlds. I wish you the best in that regard.:)

(ps. sorry for the poor grammar, but i'm still an intern and am too lazy to write a proper sentence ....or check my spelling. :laugh:)
 
I'm going to throw out a line of argument that isn't my own, just for Devil's Advocacy. I repeat, don't attack me, I'm just throwing out the argument repeatedly presented in my mental health policy class at the best health policy school in the country. I don't buy it necessarily, but I think it makes us think about our role as specialized mental health providers.

"Psychiatrists who do therapy that could be done as effectively by lower-cost provider are selfish. Every non-essential therapy hour performed by a psychiatrist represents an hour of medication management and medical evaluation that a lower cost provider could not have done. Psychiatrists doing non-essential therapy creates an artificial scarcity of psychiatric care, and exacerbates shortages in non-urban areas by creating artificially large psychiatric demand in areas where lower cost providers are more readily available."

Granted, this class was full mostly of people who wanted to graduate with their MPH and immediately make 6 figure salaries as hospital administrators by squeezing the life and livelihood out of physicians and patients, and who didn't understand the first thing about mental health. And even if the argument has a ton of flaws, I do think it's a bit sobering.

Edit: And since I don't want to be misconstrued despite my caveats that this argument is not my own, I don't think a psychiatrist who wants to perform therapy in their work is at all selfish, but I do think there is some truth to the argument that we should see medication management as a noble enterprise unto itself that serves a niche that no other mental health provider can competently provide. And we should accept that there are some contexts in which the decision to pass therapy to lower cost providers is better for our patients as a population. And there are other contexts where providing that service ourselves is much better for the patient in front of us.
 
I absolutely see the argument that 'you're' making. It's an interesting perspective. From a purely academic standpoint, I can appreciate the sentiment.

However, I'll also say something that's not popular. But, it' starting to really irk me...

Psychiatry is not that different from other medical specialties. We don't have the market cornered on down-on-their-luck low-income and "disadvantaged" patients.

Our patients have suffering too. Just like those with poorly treated medical conditions suffer, so do our patients. Is the simple fact that it's mental, and ergo may lead to physical dysfunction, make them any more important? From my own personal bias, I say "yes" but that's only because I'm a psychiatrist myself, and I fight for my patients. Do I do it because we're supposed to be more "caring" or "sensitive?" No. I do it because I'm a physician, and I specialize in a particular branch of medicine. My branch deals with the mentall ill. All of them. That includes the rich housewife whose subjective anxiety is only arguably less serious than the homeless schizophrenic's.

Should psychiatry make less money because we're supposed to be bleeding heart soup kitchen mystery meat dispensers? No. We undergo some of the hardest training and endure more crap than most any other profession. We take more responsibility than any other health profession, and we're dealing with higher levels of risk. We work hard, we deserve to play hard. And I don't apologize for that.

[/rant]
 
I'm sure you can find the best of both worlds. I wish you the best in that regard.:)

Thanks, Chimed. It's really nice to hear that. And to be honest, I am questioning whether I made the right decision to join this practice or not. Not entirely because of the money, but because I am not sure if ultimately it fulfills my longterm career goals. But I do know that I can learn a lot there and that it doesn't have to be forever and where am I going to find something I'd like to do better in the next two months? Not to mention that while I haven't signed a contract yet, I do have a longstanding verbal agreement, which is worth something to me. *sigh*

Edit: And since I don't want to be misconstrued despite my caveats that this argument is not my own, I don't think a psychiatrist who wants to perform therapy in their work is at all selfish, but I do think there is some truth to the argument that we should see medication management as a noble enterprise unto itself that serves a niche that no other mental health provider can competently provide. And we should accept that there are some contexts in which the decision to pass therapy to lower cost providers is better for our patients as a population. And there are other contexts where providing that service ourselves is much better for the patient in front of us.

I think that being able to offer med management and psychotherapy together from the same provider is a great service. I can't tell you how many patients have been relieved that they didn't have to see two different people for one problem. And also, I went to med school because I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. I ended up in psych because I love it and have found my passion here. It would suck to have to go back to grad school to be able to do therapy when I've already been to med school. But maybe that's just selfishness again. ;)
 
Thanks, Chimed. It's really nice to hear that. And to be honest, I am questioning whether I made the right decision to join this practice or not. Not entirely because of the money, but because I am not sure if ultimately it fulfills my longterm career goals. But I do know that I can learn a lot there and that it doesn't have to be forever and where am I going to find something I'd like to do better in the next two months? Not to mention that while I haven't signed a contract yet, I do have a longstanding verbal agreement, which is worth something to me. *sigh*



I think that being able to offer med management and psychotherapy together from the same provider is a great service. I can't tell you how many patients have been relieved that they didn't have to see two different people for one problem. And also, I went to med school because I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. I ended up in psych because I love it and have found my passion here. It would suck to have to go back to grad school to be able to do therapy when I've already been to med school. But maybe that's just selfishness again. ;)

I think there's a key point here. Getting psychotherapy and psychiatric meds from the same provider is more efficient in a number of ways. One, it's less time for the patient telling the same story. Two, it's easier for one provider to manage all the mental healthcare, rather than conversing with multiple providers (though I could see an argument for the opposite, in a team approach model). Three, therapy is so user dependent. Are all psychologists good at therapy just because they have a certain type or number of hours of training? I'd argue not, though obviously better to have training than not to have training. But I routinely make connections with patients on an inpatient unit that ask me if I can be their permanent doctor, both for therapy and meds. Flattering, splitting, whatever you want to call it. In the end I have to wonder if I could give therapy to my patient and prescribe their meds, if their compliance might not be all the better in the long run. Anyone know any literature on that?
 
......I have to wonder if I could give therapy to my patient and prescribe their meds, if their compliance might not be all the better in the long run. Anyone know any literature on that?

If you aren't in a rush, I can probably poke through the research in this area. I remember looking into it last year, so hopefully I still have a few citations laying around.
 
The split treatment model has advantages and disadvantages. I'd argue the disadvantages out weigh the proposed advantages though. There is a good review with some, I stress some, discussion of empirical research on the issue in:
Gitlin, M.J. (1996). The psychotherapist's guide to psychopharmanacology 2nd edition NY. Free Press. Chapter 14: The Split Treatment Model
 
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