Don't call 911 in Rhode Island

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Wow. Just. Wow.
Once again the firefighter unions show what they really care about.
A lobbyist for the firefighters union lambasted the doctors for not consulting more of its members before proposing such changes, saying, “We’re the experts ... not the doctors!”
 
If it doesn't change families should sue EMS and firefighters or whomever is putting in the tubes. Don't they realize that supraglottic airways are just as good as advanced airways in cardiac arrest? The literature is right there for all to see.

The article makes it seem like though that all those 12 cases might had lived if they were tubed properly, which isn't the case
 
Anyone else die a little inside watching that coding patient EMS is bringing in who you can tell from 100 ft away that the tube is in the wrong place (abdomen distended, gastric content spewing everywhere)? I am amazed at how frequently I still see this despite all the recent literature regarding supraglottic devices.
 
This plus one handed compressions, or no compressions, and zero history provided.
Anyone else die a little inside watching that coding patient EMS is bringing in who you can tell from 100 ft away that the tube is in the wrong place (abdomen distended, gastric content spewing everywhere)? I am amazed at how frequently I still see this despite all the recent literature regarding supraglottic devices.

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Always been a proponent of field coding these patients (older, high comorbidity, unwitnessed cardiac arrest) until ROSC or TOD called, with appropriate remote medical direction provided of course.

Transport just interrupts myocardial and brain perfusion time. No reason for it.

Yet instead it's liability shifting straight to the physician, as quickly as possible, to the detriment of the patient
This plus one handed compressions, or no compressions, and zero history provided.

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If it doesn't change families should sue EMS and firefighters or whomever is putting in the tubes. Don't they realize that supraglottic airways are just as good as advanced airways in cardiac arrest? The literature is right there for all to see.

Supraglottic airways may actually be better in cardiac arrest than endotracheal intubation. If there pulses come back, they can be switched out later. They minimize interruptions in cpr, which is really the only thing that matters.
 
If it doesn't change families should sue EMS and firefighters or whomever is putting in the tubes. Don't they realize that supraglottic airways are just as good as advanced airways in cardiac arrest? The literature is right there for all to see.

The article makes it seem like though that all those 12 cases might had lived if they were tubed properly, which isn't the case

The literature is conflicting. Wang's latest article suggested intubation was associated with worse outcomes. However, keep in mind that only 51% of the patients randomized to endotracheal intubation actually got the intended treatment. The paramedics in those studies couldn't intubate efficiently.

I am in the process of getting IRB approval for a randomized trial in my system to look at the effects of i-Gel vs. ETI for ROSC, survival-to-admission, and survival-to-discharge neurologically intact. My paramedics use video laryngoscopes and have a 99% intubation rate on the first attempt. We work >500 cardiac arrests per year, so it shouldn't take long to get the numbers we need. Our currently OHCA survival-to-discharge rate CPC 1/2 is 13.5%. Hopefully this will give more information if ETI is superior to i-Gel. If it's not, then I will likely remove intubation from my paramedics' scope of practice.
 
On another note, the 51% may be more representative of EMS around the country than my system. I exert a lot of control over airway management in my system. They are required to attend annual training to keep their skills up to date since many of them go a long time without intubating a real patient.
 
Give em a King LT!

Sorry, had to do that, it's in the name. Anyways, it's a sad situation and unfortunately the stubborness of first responders is all to common and all too familiar. Fire in particular are like the nurses of EMS, well organized and politically powerful
 
There are two different scenarios with field intubations that scare me to different degrees. The first is paramedics intubating patients in cardiac arrest. This is lesser of two evils to me as it involves an already dead patient, and the paramedics insuring that they stay dead if they miss an esophageal intubation. This is bad, but nowhere near as bad as the second scenario that I’ve seen - missed esophageal intubation after attempted field RSI. Here you have an alive patient, many times who would do OK with diligent BLS airway maneuvers, who is effectively killed by a missed intubation. Read this article if you want to see a horror story of missed esophageal intubation:


This kid hit his head while skateboarding in my parent’s neighborhood. He was taken to a small hospital with injuries that amounted to nothing more than a post-concussive syndrome with a negative head CT. The local hospital decided to intubate him for “airway protection” because an ambulance would need to drive him an 90 min up the road to ECU. Along the way, he self-extubates and the ambulance crew pulls over on the side of the road to RSI him with predictable results. Keep in mind that the kid had no injuries to warrant intubation in the first place...
 
The ECU case was downright murder. I did residency there, although before that case, and I knew some of those people. It was a disaster.

Right now on reddit you can see predictable paragod behavior similar to the lobbyist in the article. I'm also tempted to take ETI out of our protocols but there are situations that it is needed, just not for OHCA it seems. But that article also points towards chart manipulation and other things, as they should be using etCO2 monitors. We've been using them since 2008 FFS.

And yes, we don't know if all 12 of those patients would have lived, but we do know that paralyzed esophageal intubations die 100% of the time.
 
Should be 100%

AKA a "never event"

Don't tube them. The science is clear. No reason for it.
Also, 11 missed tubes over 2 1/2 years for the ENTIRE STATE seems like a pretty low failure rate to me.. Granted with EtCO2 there really shouldn't be any unrecognized esophogeal intubations, but I'd still like to know how many intubations were performed overall before I lament about 11 missed tubes.. 11/50 is pretty bad.. 11/1,000? 1.1% failure rate? 98.9% success rate? Seems like a different story altogether.


Edited to add - it would appear there were 800 patients in this study.. 98.6% success rate..

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You’re right, it “should be”.

Is there anything in medicine that is actually 100% though?

You’re really proving why EMS shouldn’t be intubating..

It’s defenseless. Full stop.
 
I have 0 missed esophageal intubations in 20 years. In the study posted, there were 789 instances were intubation was successful.

but sure let’s scrap it because it failed 1.4% of the time.

Let’s scrap it because it’s not evidence based to intubate in cardiac arrest. Maybe go become a CRNA if medical school is too much of a hassle and you love intubating.
 
If you want to discuss evidence based medicine, we're all ears.

If you want to advocate for nonsense then expect the physicians here to react as they did.

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Ah the ultimate SDN condescending “I’m better than you” statement.

like I said, I forgot my role, thanks for reminding me. You can go on believing that a psychomotor skill requires 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, and 3+ years of residency to perform.

Why are you even here?

You talked about medical school school in 2011-2012, then again applying/trying to get in 2016, now in 2019 you said you're likely going the NP route.

Actually, I think that fits you really well. You have the exact same mindset as them. You'll make an excellent NP.
 
I have 0 missed esophageal intubations in 20 years. In the study posted, there were 789 instances were intubation was successful.

but sure let’s scrap it because it failed 1.4% of the time.

You miss the point. It's not esophageal intubation that's the problem. It's missed esophageal intubation that's the problem.

Nobody faults the EMT's (EMT-cardiacs as they're designated) for gut tubing. They fault them for not recognizing it and pulling it before life-ending damage occurs.

If my medics had 0.5% unrecognized esophageal intubations, they would not intubate.
 
Ah the ultimate SDN condescending “I’m better than you” statement.

like I said, I forgot my role, thanks for reminding me. You can go on believing that a psychomotor skill requires 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, and 3+ years of residency to perform.

Studies show to get good at intubation you need >100 intubations, and to maintain proficiency you need >10 per year. I have never seen a paramedic have those numbers.

@FiremedicMike I hope you mean well, but you come across as the person in the article who claims to know more than EMS physicians how to administer prehospital care.
 
I have 0 missed esophageal intubations in 20 years. In the study posted, there were 789 instances were intubation was successful.

but sure let’s scrap it because it failed 1.4% of the time.
Ah the ultimate SDN condescending “I’m better than you” statement.

like I said, I forgot my role, thanks for reminding me. You can go on believing that a psychomotor skill requires 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, and 3+ years of residency to perform.
How many did you do in training? Unless you've done it on 100+ actual humans, you have no business doing it unsupervised. Yet paramedics need what, like 10? lol...
 
Also, 11 missed tubes over 2 1/2 years for the ENTIRE STATE seems like a pretty low failure rate to me.. Granted with EtCO2 there really shouldn't be any unrecognized esophogeal intubations, but I'd still like to know how many intubations were performed overall before I lament about 11 missed tubes.. 11/50 is pretty bad.. 11/1,000? 1.1% failure rate? 98.9% success rate? Seems like a different story altogether.


Edited to add - it would appear there were 800 patients in this study.. 98.6% success rate..

The article at least quoted a rate of 4%, but really it's beside the point. This is something that should never happen, and it's a death sentence when it does.

It isn't about you or about paramedics intubating.

It's about the damn patient, which is what all the people folks dick measuring in Rhode Island seem to be forgetting.

Do patient's benefit from prehospital intubation? Vast majority of the time the answer is no, and they do far better with insertion of a supraglottic device which is easier/faster to place.

In general my problem with ems intubating is rarely how it was done, but why it was done. and that's the part that matters. 90+% of intubations are easy enough for any monkey to do, with around 5 of the remaining 10% being feasible by most novices with a few attempts. The part that doesn't seem to be as appreciated is when and where it should happen.
 
Even in the face of science... Man.... The hubris
1,000% agree. But I will disagree that only physicians are capable of understanding "when and where" it should happen, with that said, I will obviously admit that there are some paramedics who are incapable of making that decision appropriately.

I realize I'm on an island with that opinion, and there's not much I can do to change that..

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That's a 1.4% murder rate with limited evidence for potential benefit.
Also, 11 missed tubes over 2 1/2 years for the ENTIRE STATE seems like a pretty low failure rate to me.. Granted with EtCO2 there really shouldn't be any unrecognized esophogeal intubations, but I'd still like to know how many intubations were performed overall before I lament about 11 missed tubes.. 11/50 is pretty bad.. 11/1,000? 1.1% failure rate? 98.9% success rate? Seems like a different story altogether.


Edited to add - it would appear there were 800 patients in this study.. 98.6% success rate..
 
God pre hospital people can be annoying.
 
Unlike many of my colleagues here, I WAS a firefighter for 9 years, and AM a currently certified paramedic, along with board certified EM doc.

Let me see if I can find what I posted in the past...

"Well, mostly, it's not taught as much as selected for. Many EMS providers have or have had bachelor's degrees in unrelated, and poorly employable, disciplines. Then, there is hierarchical progression; in NY, for example, there are 5 EMS levels, from CFR (Certified First Responder - aimed towards police and firefighters), EMT, EMT-Intermediate, EMT-CC (critical care), and EMT-P (paramedic). Other states may not have so many levels. In NY, you just have to be EMT to take a paramedic class, although many, like me, went through intermediate first. In Western NY, the EMT-3 (CC) just isn't taught, and there are no medical director protocols for them.

So, how do you make a radical? You educate a man, then don't give him a job. I studied - literally - nearly zero for my original class in 1995-96, and, when I recerted in 14 and 17, I literally did not open the book (Nancy Caroline's "Emergency Care In The Streets"). EMS is full of overeducated, moderately to heavily underemployed people. It might be standard now that people have to have a 2 year paramedic program, but it wasn't in the past.

So, the paramedics are the top of the **** pile. And, some of them let it go to their heads. Since they can do a lot of procedures, and can "cut to the front of the line" to talk to the doc on the med call phone, they think they are better than they are; they forget that "technician" is right there in the name. Add to that personality issues/disorders, and you get the "paragod". If they are flight medics, it can be even worse."

This was in response to the question, "Do they teach arrogance in paramedic school?", in this thread.

Of course, that paradigm is "3rd service/private company", whereas the fellow above is fire department. Without knowing, that pathway was, likely, fire academy, and then paramedic school. Both of these are technical schools, like enlisted training in the military. You learn how to to the job, and you learn it well. If you don't know any professional firefighters, then you probably don't know how well of a job that they do. They are the "real thing".

It's because of that, that I can see how it can spill over to the overconfidence thing (not saying that about @FiremedicMike , but just in general). However, a rough parallel to this is the CRNAs that become anesthesiologists, and they say, "I didn't realize how much I didn't know".

Even if intubating is just a technical skill, it's like the rubric about surgical residency - "the first two years is learning how to operate, and then the last 3 years is learning when NOT to operate".
 
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@FiremedicMike none of this was meant as an indictment of paramedicine. More than 1 of us is EMS medical directors. We are appalled by this system, not by EMS in general.
However, in this system, intubations were abused. Unrecognized goose tubes killed people who potentially had survivable injuries. QI is nonexisant. This needs to change ot make EMS better.
It saddens me when I talk with my international colleagues about what is allowed here. We need to be better. Yes, EMS pay needs to be better. EMS education needs improvement. But paragod behavior is always inappropriate.
 
There was a lot of rhetoric and heated emotions. It happens to all of us.
Imagine how we would feel if there was a crosslinked thread in Gas about us doing procedural sedation. I get it, but there's data to be had.

Agree, but the "intubations are easy!" attitude is telling about his Dunning-Kruger development stage.
I've had several nightmare intubations this year.

Today.
EMS radios in with a 78 year old female with stridor. Head and neck cancer patient. Radiation fibrosis. Sats in the 80s on BiPAP.

WE GAVE LOTS OF ALBUTEROL AND STEROIDS AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY ITS NOT HELPING. WHEN PEOPLE CAN'T BREATHE YOU GIVE ALBUTEROL AND STEROIDS AND IT HELPS ALL THE TIME.

But.
Intubations are easy, right?
 
There was a lot of rhetoric and heated emotions. It happens to all of us.
Imagine how we would feel if there was a crosslinked thread in Gas about us doing procedural sedation. I get it, but there's data to be had.

Didn't know that thread existed. If our literature showed that 0.5% of people died during procedural sedation in the ER, then I would advocate that EM physicians should not be performing procedural sedation.
 
I mean when you come in here spouting untruths you're gonna get smacked down.

It's funny. No passenger would ever question a pilot how to fly their 747. You wouldn't tell NASA how to launch their space shuttles. You wouldn't tell a bond trader how to trade their bonds.

Yet every non physician has an opinion and "knowledge" about how medicine should be performed.
There was a lot of rhetoric and heated emotions. It happens to all of us.
Imagine how we would feel if there was a crosslinked thread in Gas about us doing procedural sedation. I get it, but there's data to be had.

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I've had 3 in the last year that were esophageal intubations in the field. All died. The worst was a 65 yo F w/"anxiety" brought in with chest compressions ongoing, and a "blind nasotracheal" intubation in the field. When I asked the EMS crew about the Hx, it was "she was panicking and having a hard time breathing, so we gave her 10 of versed to calm her down and she stopped breathing..." then they spent 20+ minutes trying to intubate her and couldn't see anything, so they resorted to blind NT (esophageal)... When family arrived they noted she has bad COPD, uses 2L 02, and was having a COPD flare that day. This was one of those "WTH were you thinking" cases. I'm in the camp that king/combi/ALS airway and bring to the ED, and NO in the field intubations.
 
This is what's known as a "clean kill"
I've had 3 in the last year that were esophageal intubations in the field. All died. The worst was a 65 yo F w/"anxiety" brought in with chest compressions ongoing, and a "blind nasotracheal" intubation in the field. When I asked the EMS crew about the Hx, it was "she was panicking and having a hard time breathing, so we gave her 10 of versed to calm her down and she stopped breathing..." then they spent 20+ minutes trying to intubate her and couldn't see anything, so they resorted to blind NT (esophageal)... When family arrived they noted she has bad COPD, uses 2L 02, and was having a COPD flare that day. This was one of those "WTH were you thinking" cases. I'm in the camp that king/combi/ALS airway and bring to the ED, and NO in the field intubations.

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I had a 30 yo drunk, MVC, confused on scene per documentation, intubated for airway protection. No injuries on pan scan. Bad anoxic injury as the esophageal intubation wasn't recognized until primary survey on ED trauma activation. I was the ICU resident. It was one of the worst family conversations I've ever had. I can't imagine it from the perspective of the recently married and soon to be widowed spouse.

Even if you make the argument he needed a tube, an LMA of some sort would have been sufficient.
 
I dont even check tube placement if they come in after a prolonged code with no return of any rhythm. There's no point and intubating them properly at that time has 0% chance of changing the outcome
 
It's okay, once we have prehospital ECMO over here as standard of care, it doesn't matter where you put the tube.
 
Prehospital RSI or DAI, whatever you want to call it, is just one of those things that should never be allowed in the field. Whether full RSI with paralytics or just snowing them with Versed/Ketamine/insert your drug here, it's been shown to be detrimental in numerous studies.
 
Prehospital RSI or DAI, whatever you want to call it, is just one of those things that should never be allowed in the field. Whether full RSI with paralytics or just snowing them with Versed/Ketamine/insert your drug here, it's been shown to be detrimental in numerous studies.


Seriously.
Just put an LMA in there and transport.
The "King Airway" is nonsense. EMS might as well try and jam my TV remote down the airway.
LMA
LMA
LMA
LMA.
 
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