Don't know where else to post

[hurtsmystomach]

Anybody already in medical school dealing with unprofessional behavior from professors or classmates?

I'm just trying to find out if it is my school or if it is the norm.

Do you guys ever have classmates get into physical fights, like shoving each other, or do you ever have professors that are a little too friendly, like flirtacious, and do you ever have classmates say non politically correct things about your race, or other races?

If so, have you had any luck remedying this behavior without a lot of fallout?

Thanks

 

[n3xa]

I've seen TAs date their students.. before final grades were submitted.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Anybody already in medical school dealing with unprofessional behavior from professors or classmates?

I'm just trying to find out if it is my school or if it is the norm.

Do you guys ever have classmates get into physical fights, like shoving each other, or do you ever have professors that are a little too friendly, like flirtacious, and do you ever have classmates say non politically correct things about your race, or other races?

If so, have you had any luck remedying this behavior without a lot of fallout?

Thanks

"Say non-politically correct things..." You've got to be kidding. At some point during life people surrounding you will say something not approved by the victimology groups.

Humans occasionally behave in manners not approved by other humans. Yes, this is not unusual. If it approaches the level of illegal or truly harassment, then you talk to the HR department, but if it's a level of "Oh he said Mexican when he should have said Hispanic," then you need to get a life.

 

[DrMidlife]

Assuming you're female, find an older female mentor on the faculty, preferably one who did military service and isn't a showboat. Get her to coach you on when to choose to fight vs. when to shake it off. Be careful how much you lean on classmates to process your frustration - they may not have the bandwidth to support you.

There's no general advice you're going to get on the internet that's going to be useful. What you're like in person is a critical factor in offering any coaching on the situation. Seriously, I've had classmates who were complete psychos, and I've had classmates who were preyed on by psychos, and you could be anywhere on that spectrum.

That said, my read on this:
- classmates shoving each other: if it happened on school property, then the administration should hear about it. If it happened in a situation where you couldn't leave (such as in lab), then the school is liable for your safety; if your school doesn't address it then leave the school. Otherwise stay out of it.
- faculty flirting: you have to have the backbone to say "knock it off." If they don't knock it off, then you're in a crappy he-said-she-said situation. If the flirting isn't directed at you, then be supportive but don't make it your problem unless you're willing to take the consequences.
- classmates making racial comments: again, you have to have the backbone to say "knock it off."

Best of luck to you.

 

[QofQuimica]

As others have already said, it's difficult to give you a specific response when you've asked such a general question. You'll have to give us more details if you want more personalized advice.

From your post history, it appears that you have just started your third year. Unfortunately, on rotations you are going to have to work with some people you might not especially care for, and that is just part of being on the wards. The good news is that even bad rotations go by quickly, and although some teams are kind of rough, others are really great. You will have both kinds of experiences, so don't let one bad team or even one bad rotation get you down.

I also agree with the suggestion that you choose your battles wisely. Unless what you're observing is illegal or could harm someone (especially a patient), there is probably not much good that will come out of alienating everyone around you. You are right that horseplay and crude jokes are not very professional, but as a third year student, you are not going to teach your superiors a lesson in professionalism. It may help if you take the mindset that everyone you meet this year is going to teach you something valuable about how to be a good physician. Some will teach you by being good mentors and role models that you want to emulate. Others will be a cautionary tale that will help you become a better physician by showing you how you should not behave. Both types of examples are useful to your education.

Hope this helps, and best of luck. 🙂

 

[seelee]

Heck, I make politically incorrect comments about my classmates all the time.

That's how I roll.😎

 

[Simplify]

I'm not surprised you're the one that's defending the perpetrators. By "non-politically correct" I think s/he was alluding to actual racism.

OP - If you're in some kind of southern state/redneck... I mean, red state, don't be surprised at this behavior... I bet you're reading this now Ed and your first instinct wasn't to "get a life." Hopefully that politically incorrect statement I just made taught you something.

You really showed him! Actually, you just immortalized your own ignorance. Cheers mate.

 

[TriagePreMed]

You really showed him! Actually, you just immortalized your own ignorance. Cheers mate.

How so? Clearly the statement I made was for purposes of getting his attention and not based on real sentiments, and I made that specific one because I know he has worked in partisan politics for republicans. Maybe you just immortalized your own ignorance. Cheers to you.

 

[EdLongshanks]

How so? Clearly the statement I made was for purposes of getting his attention and not based on real sentiments, and I made that specific one because I know he has worked in partisan politics for republicans. Maybe you just immortalized your own ignorance. Cheers to you.

I was called a redneck. Oh no. Tears, depression. She made a GENERALIZATION that everyone in a red state is a redneck. Sob, Sob, I shall have go to my cousin Bubba and make him squeaaaal like a stuck pig, squeeeaaall like a stuck pig.

If being called a red-neck bothers me, then I need to GET A LIFE, because I would be offended many times a year.

I'm not defending the perpetrators. I'm suggesting to someone younger and less experienced in the world that "politically incorrect" statements are fairly common and should be ignored - as I ignore or mock red-neck jokes. Actual racist statements and jokes are less common and deserve to be called what they are - rude and inappropriate. Actual intimidation is very rare and even more rarely is racial in nature. Physical intimidation typically occurs between a couple of same-race males who haven't conquered their biological nature. If a male "pushes" a female then he will be immediately escorted out in handcuffs.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I'm not surprised you're the one that's defending the perpetrators. By "non-politically correct" I think s/he was alluding to actual racism.

OP - If you're in some kind of southern state/redneck... I mean, red state, don't be surprised at this behavior... I bet you're reading this now Ed and your first instinct wasn't to "get a life." Hopefully that politically incorrect statement I just made taught you something.

If you really want to hit me where it hurts, refer to my pentecostal religion and say something about snake-handlers.

And, yes, my response is two-fold - if you were a friend, I would explain to you that there are only a total of 2000 snake-handlers in America. If you were just someone trying to be insulting I would think, "What an ignorant fool." I certainly would never consider complaining to HR.

 

[TriagePreMed]

So you respond twice to me to show me that a politically incorrect statement is not bothersome? I fully support the OP because she's heard racist statements about herself. Imagine if she's black and someone says "stupid negroes." That kind of behavior should not be acceptable at any medical school or be something you should turn a blind eye on. Since you have never had to live as being part of a discriminated group, you can't understand this, Ed.

 

[shouldvestudied]

"Say non-politically correct things..." You've got to be kidding. At some point during life people surrounding you will say something not approved by the victimology groups.

Humans occasionally behave in manners not approved by other humans. Yes, this is not unusual. If it approaches the level of illegal or truly harassment, then you talk to the HR department, but if it's a level of "Oh he said Mexican when he should have said Hispanic," then you need to get a life.

Spoken like a white male completely unaware of his de facto privilege.

 

[seelee]

So you respond twice to me to show me that a politically incorrect statement is not bothersome? I fully support the OP because she's heard racist statements about herself. Imagine if she's black and someone says "stupid negroes." That kind of behavior should not be acceptable at any medical school or be something you should turn a blind eye on. Since you have never had to live as being part of a discriminated group, you can't understand this, Ed.

So are you privy to information that the rest of us do not have? Was the non-PC statement "stupid negroes", or was it (more likely) that some unsuspecting student said "black" instead of "african american" or "indian" instead of "native american". Political correctness is a nebulous term with the express purpose of making people into "offenders for a word".

If the OP was a victim of racism, she would have said "racism", but she didn't, she said "politically incorrect".

 

[seelee]

Spoken like a white male completely unaware of his de facto privilege.

Wow, you mean you really bought into that stuff? LOL. Please tell me you didn't buy into those sensitivity indoctrination sessions that teach us that all white people are inherently racist by virtue of society.

It's not privilege son. It's hard work, and lots of it. I have read enough of Longshank's posts to know that he is not where he is because of who his daddy was. If you expect us to feel guilty because certain people in society choose to allow a largely self-imposed stigma to prevent them from being productive members of society then you can go **** yourself.

Once you have spent some time in the real world and see that people aren't racist any more. It's not in style. If anything white people are just sick of being told that they have to perpetually apologize for something that they didn't do to people who didn't have it done to them. I am certain that I speak for a lot of white men who are more than happy to put the entire issue of race behind us, yet the people who keep bringing it up in the form of sensitivity training, and diversity classes, and political correctness seminars, won't let it drop, and if anything only drive the wedge in further.

 

[EdLongshanks]

So you respond twice to me to show me that a politically incorrect statement is not bothersome? I fully support the OP because she's heard racist statements about herself. Imagine if she's black and someone says "stupid negroes." That kind of behavior should not be acceptable at any medical school or be something you should turn a blind eye on. Since you have never had to live as being part of a discriminated group, you can't understand this, Ed.

That statement isn't "politically incorrect" it is racist. I'd be surprised if student doctor's get by with racist statements. My understanding (which admittedly, about med school, is hearsay) and my experience with the corporate world (which is extensive) tells me that a truly racist statement like that would get reprimanded twice at most with termination soon following for the third infraction. This is the correct and right policy.

The term "politically incorrect" means that it offends only one side of a political argument. The term was created to attack the political opponents of certain special interest groups. It has nothing to do with racism at all.

If the OP wants to complain about behaviors at her school, she would do well to avoid saying that her fellow students aren't "politically correct". All that means is that do not hold views deemed correct by a certain political party.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Spoken like a white male completely unaware of his de facto privilege.

I'm sorry that my race and sex are such a problem to you. I'm sorry that I am unable to change them to please you.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Wow, you mean you really bought into that stuff? LOL. Please tell me you didn't buy into those sensitivity indoctrination sessions that teach us that all white people are inherently racist by virtue of society.

I agree, kind of, but not completely. Yes, there is an agrievement industry out there who make money by finding racism and sexism where it doesn't exist. On the other hand, I think that doctors have a special need to by sympathetic to all groups.

I once worked loading crop-dusters in California. For pure rudeness, that industry beat the oil-field. The automatic response to any request was to describe, in detail, what act the requester should perform. The females were spoken too as if they were community property and the hispanics were all called by the common term for an illegal immigrant.

For those of you who wonder, I never participated in this behavior.

If a hispanic or female from that environment came to a clinic to be treated by a white male doctor. They might assume that the doctor has the same attitude toward them, and therefore his treatment is hindered. The doctor has to find some way to make them realize his respect for them.

I, personally, don't have a problem here. I have worked in the homeless shelters enough that I have developed a mannerism that seems to work. Anyway, the minority women and children are as comfortable, or more comfortable with me than the white men.

But this is a matter of experience and probably training. Young doctors need to be given this training for the sake of good clinical practice. I'm sure that the medical schools are already giving it. Medical students can confirm or deny.

 

[TriagePreMed]

In various aspects about your description of political correctness you are right. However, it has been my experience that saying "politically incorrect" has become a substitute for saying racism or racist because usually what follows is that the person that said something racist defends tooth and nail that they would never be racist. In fact, I believe some people may not be racists and say racist things. I've seen it with a lot of friends, but it doesn't mean that the things being said are acceptable.

Given that I see that your approach to this was conceptually different than my approach, I have to take a step back and say that your initial comment was much more appropriate than I had interpreted. In fact I have a funny story about political correctness. I once had a white professor that marked down several points from an essay I wrote because I said "the black gentleman" instead of "the African-American gentleman." Now that sucked.

That statement isn't "politically incorrect" it is racist. I'd be surprised if student doctor's get by with racist statements. My understanding (which admittedly, about med school, is hearsay) and my experience with the corporate world (which is extensive) tells me that a truly racist statement like that would get reprimanded twice at most with termination soon following for the third infraction. This is the correct and right policy.

The term "politically incorrect" means that it offends only one side of a political argument. The term was created to attack the political opponents of certain special interest groups. It has nothing to do with racism at all.

If the OP wants to complain about behaviors at her school, she would do well to avoid saying that her fellow students aren't "politically correct". All that means is that do not hold views deemed correct by a certain political party.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

No, but my chemistry teacher, professor or whatever you want to call him, can't answer a question to save his life. I've dealt with the public for a while now, and I've become intimately familiar with people's reactions to things. I'd bet huge amounts of money that questions scare him. Unfortunately, try as he might, his answers never make sense, and no they're obviously not answers that are supposed to make the student think. He routinely works problems wrong on the board, and that's not done to test students either because I've seen him become embarassed over it. He's a general assbag in the lab, and his actions match the cliche of "he was picked on a lot when he was younger." His instructions, neither written nor oral, are ever clear, and he becomes arrogant and defensive if he's questioned for clarity. I can't stand it, and I'm doing everything I can do to sit through his class. Luckily, I'm forever done with the man on August 2nd.

 

[EdLongshanks]

In various aspects about your description of political correctness you are right. However, it has been my experience that saying "politically incorrect" has become a substitute for saying racism or racist because usually what follows is that the person that said something racist defends tooth and nail that they would never be racist. In fact, I believe some people may not be racists and say racist things. I've seen it with a lot of friends, but it doesn't mean that the things being said are acceptable.

Given that I see that your approach to this was conceptually different than my approach, I have to take a step back and say that your initial comment was much more appropriate than I had interpreted. In fact I have a funny story about political correctness. I once had a white professor that marked down several points from an essay I wrote because I said "the black gentleman" instead of "the African-American gentleman." Now that sucked.

Most political battles are won or lost on the ground of word-smithing. The term "politically correct" has been the battle ground for the last 15 years. You are correct that there is a great effort to make the terms "politically incorrect" and "racist" synonymous. If this effort succeeds (which I don't think it will) then political dialogue will suffer. Because, the term is much broader than racism, it includes expressing support for anyone on the "incorrect" side of the political argument. Therefore Jeb Bush is "politically incorrect" on the hispanic question despite the fact that his wife and children are hispanic and Spanish might even be their first language.

But you can call Jeb Bush "politically incorrect" without violating the truth. He is. If the term is also is synonymous with racism, then you can convict him of racism without having a identified a single racist thing that he has ever done, said, or thought.

This is why I reacted so strongly against the OP's post. She said her fellow students said "politically incorrect" things. This might mean that they expressed support for Sarah Palin and said she was better looking than Hillary Clinton.

What I read in the original post was a student who has never stepped outside of the liberal cocoon of the modern university and is suffering from culture shock when she finds out that not everyone thinks that marriage is slavery and the founding fathers were simply Dead White Men.

 

[EdLongshanks]

You're another guy that's completely unaware of your de facto status. Here's one subtle example of racism: Although I'm Hispanic, I'm pretty white looking and often get asked if I'm mixed or sometimes outright confused for a white person. I went into a Burger joint and paid my bill with my debit card. The guy that went next to me was a black man. He paid with his debit card too. Difference between me and him? They asked him to show his ID for payment. This is probably the most mild and subtle example that I can come up with.

Another subtle example is this: I went to a job agency once. I had my resume and everything, except for my documents regarding legal status. I told the employee I could bring them back the next day (they were about to close). She gets close to me and whispers "are you here legally?" This type of stuff wouldn't happen to a white or a black man.

And as for sensitivity training, you should blame that on attorneys. There are legitimate lawsuits based on race. Once this happens, what does a company do? A company hires some bull**** firm to do sensitivity training or whatever so that next time something happens they can hone in on the employee being outside of the company mold and that the company tried everything they could to solve it. Of course, because of your de facto status as a white man, you couldn't see that and instead blamed it on minorities who want to invade your work space with sensitivity training.

I agree with almost all of this. Vestiges of racism like this exist. However, these examples also demonstrate how weak it is. I've met many racists in my life. Since I am a white male whose ancestors have never stepped north of the Mason-Dixon line (except once, at Gettysburg) they felt free around me to tell their racist jokes - each person exactly one time.

However, these are vestiges of racism. Martin Luther King won the argument. The racists scurry like cockroaches from any discovery of their true feelings. Racism (especially against blacks - hispanics and asians have different challenges) is not dead but it is clearly dying.

The corporations know that there are hidden racists among their employees and that they can't get rid of them without hiring psychic mind-readers. Therefore they cover themselves from lawsuits by giving donations to The Rainbow Coalition and forcing everyone into sensitivity training. Everyone knows what is going on and no one has a better solution.

The "politically correct" movement is an attempt to use the unresolvable reality for their benefit. By setting up a set of laws that would have made the Torah writers proud, they verify that everyone can be caught in violation sometime. They can then pick and choose which people will be crucified and who will be granted amnesty. Senator Robert Byrd can go from Klansman Grand Poobah to hero while the other party can chained up for flogging.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I'm giving you all an opportunity to rip me and my family to shreds here. Please withhold judgment until you read the entire post. Let me give a recent example from my son.

He works at a major corporation as a blue-collar worker. He is the only white man on his team. The other day he told them,

"Yeah, my grandpa knew Rosa Parks, helped her quite a bit."
"Really, how?"
"He told her, 'Get to the back of the bus'."

Now, hold on for a second. This joke is entirely situation dependent. It is either a funny self-deprecating joke, or a threat. But, notice something, it ceases to be funny precisely to the extent that it is racist. If my son were actually a racist, his co-workers would not find this funny at all. If, on the other hand, my son is making fun of our racist ancestors, then it is a good joke. His co-workers thought it was hilarious.

There is no question that this joke is politically incorrect. Sensitivity training would tell him to never say anything like this. But he has a better feel for what brings the team together than the risk-averse lawyers every could.

Someone from a liberal cocoon might be horrified at this example. I'm not at my son's work, but since the team is a bunch of testosterone-drenched males in a physically challenging environment, I can imagine that they have nose-to-nose confrontations and I wouldn't be shocked if there were occasionally some pushing and shoving. This is a 'normal' workplace and someone complaining about it should "get a life."

As an opposite example, I mentioned the crop-dusting place. Most of the employees were illegal aliens and they were used and abused. At that place, anyone who shared an accent or coloring associated with them was not promoted. The place was run by a rich family of Portuguese descent and they did not like Mexicans. Any racist "jokes" that were told there were entirely truly meant and intended to keep the Mexicans in their place.

 

[ChemMed]

OP there is a lot that can be said for learning to let undesirable comments simply role off your back and then forget about them. Inevitably you will meet people who are politically incorrect in situations that you may not be able to walk away from, like rotations.

 

[shouldvestudied]

I'm sorry that my race and sex are such a problem to you. I'm sorry that I am unable to change them to please you.

Neither your race nor your sex bother me. And I would hope that they wouldn't since I am a white male too. It is your lack of awareness regarding how other races/sexes are perceived in this country that bothers me.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Neither your race nor your sex bother me. And I would hope that they wouldn't since I am a white male too. It is your lack of awareness regarding how other races/sexes are perceived in this country that bothers me.

Firstly, since my race and sex don't bother you, I don't know why you bring it up. Secondly, it will be several decades before your "awareness' catches up with my actual experience. When you've helped people of all races to get off of the street, reunite with their families, and recover from their addictions, then talk to me about "awareness". When you've taken people into your home in winter without noticing their race, because they were dying on the street, then you can say that I "just don't get it."

There are millions of privileged little white boys in cocoons of university liberalism who have never lifted their little fingers to help someone in need who feel qualified to condescend to catholics, adventists, baptists, and evangelicals who have been working with those in need, without considering race, for centuries.

Maybe the moderators ought to stop me before I start using words like "prig"

 

[EdLongshanks]

Neither your race nor your sex bother me. And I would hope that they wouldn't since I am a white male too. It is your lack of awareness regarding how other races/sexes are perceived in this country that bothers me.

I can't help it. You've pushed my button. Three years ago I not only could, but regularly did, walk down the streets of downtown Denver at midnight without danger. Men were knifed within minutes of when I passed intersections, I've walked into the midst of drug deals. I've interrupted men's dealings with prostitutes. They put their crack pipes into their pockets when I talked to them. I had the respect the street people of Denver. I didn't get this because I have some politically correct view of who they were, but because I had real respect for them as people, because week in and week out I served them. I cooked the best briskets I could buy and spiced them as well as I could so that they could have, not just a meal, but really good meal.

After having done that for years, I find that I have a problem with someone telling me that I don't have sufficient respect or awareness of people.

 

[Lazarus]

No, but my chemistry teacher, professor or whatever you want to call him, can't answer a question to save his life. I've dealt with the public for a while now, and I've become intimately familiar with people's reactions to things. I'd bet huge amounts of money that questions scare him. Unfortunately, try as he might, his answers never make sense, and no they're obviously not answers that are supposed to make the student think. He routinely works problems wrong on the board, and that's not done to test students either because I've seen him become embarassed over it. He's a general assbag in the lab, and his actions match the cliche of "he was picked on a lot when he was younger." His instructions, neither written nor oral, are ever clear, and he becomes arrogant and defensive if he's questioned for clarity. I can't stand it, and I'm doing everything I can do to sit through his class. Luckily, I'm forever done with the man on August 2nd.

Ugh....that is my worst nightmare. I have been religiously scanning ratemyprofessor to try my best to filter out any such professors. I apparently have a less than stellar professor coming up next term, but her lack of ability does not interfere with your grade or learning (just have to use the book).

 

[TriagePreMed]

Well, like I said. You can say racist things without being racist. If you're friends with someone and that other person doesn't mind, by all means do it, and I'm as liberal as liberal gets in this country. In Europe I'd probably be center-right. However, I think that if you say that kind of stuff in a work environment and someone gets offended, that's all on you and you will have to face the consequences of your actions.

Like it or not, a work environment is not a place for jokes but instead a place where professional behavior is expected and you must be more careful of not stepping on certain common sense sensibilities. Like it or not, racism is still pretty bad in this country, so saying racist things, even as a joke, may not be appropriate. There is such a thing as a tasteful joke and a tasteless one. Yes, in large part it is dependent on the listener, but some topics are known to be more polarizing than others.

I'm giving you all an opportunity to rip me and my family to shreds here. Please withhold judgment until you read the entire post. Let me give a recent example from my son.

He works at a major corporation as a blue-collar worker. He is the only white man on his team. The other day he told them,

"Yeah, my grandpa knew Rosa Parks, helped her quite a bit."
"Really, how?"
"He told her, 'Get to the back of the bus'."

Now, hold on for a second. This joke is entirely situation dependent. It is either a funny self-deprecating joke, or a threat. But, notice something, it ceases to be funny precisely to the extent that it is racist. If my son were actually a racist, his co-workers would not find this funny at all. If, on the other hand, my son is making fun of our racist ancestors, then it is a good joke. His co-workers thought it was hilarious.

There is no question that this joke is politically incorrect. Sensitivity training would tell him to never say anything like this. But he has a better feel for what brings the team together than the risk-averse lawyers every could.

Someone from a liberal cocoon might be horrified at this example. I'm not at my son's work, but since the team is a bunch of testosterone-drenched males in a physically challenging environment, I can imagine that they have nose-to-nose confrontations and I wouldn't be shocked if there were occasionally some pushing and shoving. This is a 'normal' workplace and someone complaining about it should "get a life."

As an opposite example, I mentioned the crop-dusting place. Most of the employees were illegal aliens and they were used and abused. At that place, anyone who shared an accent or coloring associated with them was not promoted. The place was run by a rich family of Portuguese descent and they did not like Mexicans. Any racist "jokes" that were told there were entirely truly meant and intended to keep the Mexicans in their place.