Dont worry about oversaturation

[ryansgs]

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Female doctors put NHS under 'tremendous burden' because they get married, have children and want to work part-time

Whats happening in the UK also applies here in the US. The article is specifically about medical doctors but it also applies to dentists.

The main jist of the article is: Women have kids and get married, which is completely natural and normal thing to do. When they do that they decide to either leave the workforce or work part time in order to raise their kids and keep their marriages stable.

I don't blame them for doing this, because I also want to have a family and what is the alternative to doing this, being a lonely spinster with 5 cats? I love cats too but I sure as heck wouldn't want that for myself.

Women make up about 50% of the graduating classes of D school. But after graduation many decide to work part time or none at all. Which is good news for those worried about oversaturation and think they wont have enough patients and will go out of business or something.

 

[TuckerT21]

I've been saying the same thing for years now. My class is almost 65% women.

 

[yappy]

Today ... Academically speaking...women outperform men. This is the result of the war on men that has been occurring over the last 30 years

 

[ryansgs]

I've been saying the same thing for years now. My class is almost 65% women.

That's a high number. Bad for society as a whole, but good for the pockets of the men and the few, likely childless, women that decide to work full-time.

 

[ryansgs]

Today ... Academically speaking...women outperform men. This is the result of the war on men that has been occurring over the last 30 years

While there is no doubt that there is a war waged on men/boys, their hate for anything male palpable. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at exactly.

 

[periopocket]

Today ... Academically speaking...women outperform men. This is the result of the war on men that has been occurring over the last 30 years

This is true!

 

[periopocket]

Has anyone gotten a chance to read Jessica A. Rickert's article on the home page of the forum. She found doing dentistry while being a mother not so bad in comparison to a career in medicine. I still think OP has a point, but generally speaking Dentistry is quite an adaptable field for future mothers and I think thats what attracts many females to the industry - LIFESTYLE.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Probably pretty hard to work part-time or take time off to have kids when you have student debt hanging over your head.

 

[Hillo]

Gosh, I got excited for nothing

 

[ryansgs]

Don't fret my little rabbits. Oversaturation likely won't be a problem, undersaturation may be one. that is of course if they don't increase class sizes like some schools seem to already be doing.

 

[Ferneezy]

wait...OP is female? ryansgs

 

[Cold Front]

Don't want to get into the gender issue. More schools recently opened, with more female students, further increasing the current dilemma of dentist shortage in the workforce partly due to female family commitments. This is in addition to a lot of dentists retiring than graduating, and the fact that many new grads join military related services due to avoid the ever increasing dental education debt (and the fact those who usually enter the military route are mostly men).

I always knew that shortage is real for almost everywhere in the country, unless you live in California ofcourse.

 

[johnho771]

Interesting topic. I have wondered in the past how the feminization of dentistry will affect the overall workforce. Just from talking to students in my class it does the female students hope to work fewer days then the male students.

 

[dentistmom]

"War on men" sweet.

 

[Ostracized]

How on earth will a woman graduate be able to work part-time if she has $400,00 in student loans?

 

[Shunwei]

Female doctors put NHS under 'tremendous burden' because they get married, have children and want to work part-time

Whats happening in the UK also applies here in the US. The article is specifically about medical doctors but it also applies to dentists.

The main jist of the article is: Women have kids and get married, which is completely natural and normal thing to do. When they do that they decide to either leave the workforce or work part time in order to raise their kids and keep their marriages stable.

I don't blame them for doing this, because I also want to have a family and what is the alternative to doing this, being a lonely spinster with 5 cats? I love cats too but I sure as heck wouldn't want that for myself.

Women make up about 50% of the graduating classes of D school. But after graduation many decide to work part time or none at all. Which is good news for those worried about oversaturation and think they wont have enough patients and will go out of business or something.

You are making some very erroneous assumptions:

1). Older dentists don't necessarily retire. Due to what happened to the economy in 2009 many of them are working longer. Many are also finding associates to work for or with them to expand their professional lifespans.

2). More schools are opening up and many existing programs are increasing their seats. Look at the international student programs, for instance.

3). Female dentists, even if they take a temp absence of leave for family, are not going to stay out for very long. Who's going to pay their huge loans?

4). A couple of states are admitting Mexican or even Indian dentists outright into the workforce.

So, no, I think over saturation IS a big concern that should be on every dental professional's mind, especially pretty much all of the urban areas. There is still a good living to be had in the suburban and rural areas, but saturation is real and not just in CA. And where do you think, when some of the CA dentists wise up, they will go?

 

[goffdent]

There is still a good living to be had in the suburban and rural areas, but saturation is real and not just in CA. And where do you think, when some of the CA dentists wise up, they will go?

I don't think many of them necessarily will wise up.. They're stubborn. I still have classmates that are trying to pursue careers after graduation in California. jeesh.

 

[Cold Front]

You are making some very erroneous assumptions:

1). Older dentists don't necessarily retire. Due to what happened to the economy in 2009 many of them are working longer. Many are also finding associates to work for or with them to expand their professional lifespans.

2). More schools are opening up and many existing programs are increasing their seats. Look at the international student programs, for instance.

3). Female dentists, even if they take a temp absence of leave for family, are not going to stay out for very long. Who's going to pay their huge loans?

4). A couple of states are admitting Mexican or even Indian dentists outright into the workforce.

So, no, I think over saturation IS a big concern that should be on every dental professional's mind, especially pretty much all of the urban areas. There is still a good living to be had in the suburban and rural areas, but saturation is real and not just in CA. And where do you think, when some of the CA dentists wise up, they will go?

1. The economy will get better (in fact it did recover) and all senior dentists will resume their retirement plans and retire closer to their pre-recession age.

2. School class sizes are behind the general population growth. People are living longer and the US is the only rich nation in the world where population is growing, thanks to our immigration system. Adding 100's of new grads to the workforce is not enough to the millions the country grows.

3. Not all female dentists have huge debt, at least from my class few years ago. A lot of them were from affluent families with doctor parents, some joined the navy, many went to specialty programs which gives them ever more options to work less (look at pediatric dentistry, almost 80% are female doctors).

4. Not sure. But the ADA doesn't take admitting foreign grads to schools easily, plus they would have to pay higher tuition than US grads.

 

[johnho771]

I can't blame dental graduates, especially ones from California for wanting to practice in the state. I know I would like to practice around where I am from when I graduate. And as far as the the "over saturation" issue is concerned, I think it is also important to keep the population and not just the number of dentists. California has a ton of people and is still experiencing large growth in the population. I'm not saying that this growth warrants the need for a ton of additional dentists in the state, but I think it is something needs to be kept in mind when regarding these issues.

 

[Shunwei]

1. The economy will get better (in fact it did recover) and all senior dentists will resume their retirement plans and retire closer to their pre-recession age.

2. School class sizes are behind the general population growth. People are living longer and the US is the only rich nation in the world where population is growing, thanks to our immigration system. Adding 100's of new grads to the workforce is not enough to the millions the country grows.

3. Not all female dentists have huge debt, at least from my class few years ago. A lot of them were from affluent families with doctor parents, some joined the navy, many went to specialty programs which gives them ever more options to work less (look at pediatric dentistry, almost 80% are female doctors).

4. Not sure. But the ADA doesn't take admitting foreign grads to schools easily, plus they would have to pay higher tuition than US grads.

Cold front, I am quite surprised that someone like you actually buy into this shortage BS. I generally like your posts and didnt think that you actually wrote what I just read. Now, dentistry is better than a lot of the other fields in at our numbers are more or less regulated, but a lot of your claims are just . . . . baseless. I have always found the assumption about older dentists retiring en masse to be just an assumption-- and a very presumptuous one at that. Sure, some older dentists get tired and want to leave, but many I know personally want to hold into their offices and have someone work for them as a self-regenerating form if retirement pension. As far as your claims about population growth, I can't say because I have no data onhand to back up either way. However, what growth there may be in my mind comes from illegal immigration or people who need welfare, hardly the types that the profession can thrive on.

As for class sizes, don't underestimate the impact of size increases. Some schools are making massive class increases particularly for international students. For example, the year that I was graduated my class had 12 international students but e year after me they expanded almost 3-fold to 30 of them; many schools are already vastly expanding so I wouldn't dismiss this as insignificant. And as for your claims about female dentists not having a lot of debt, I am not sure where you are getting is from. Assuming that female dentists on average gets spread out among the schools fairly evenly and that the average dental debt is about 250k nowadays, I can't see any basis for your casual dismissal of this key stat. Your assumption about females more likely to come from more affuent families or joining the military is also a reach. Do you have any stats to back this up? From my own experience, my female classmates come from just the same background as my male ones, and I see far more males going to the military route. As for straight up admission of foreign dentists, google that yourself. CA (no surprise) is already doing it.

I think any real "shortage" is more of a distribution problem. Claims about general shortage, in my opinion, is a lie propagated by the academia to drum up more enthusiasm for the profession and bring hype to the society. Don't believe me? Look and see for yourself. Pretty much any and all metro areas are saturated, some more so than others but all big cities have A LOT of dentists. The best way to ensure the fields future is to focus on graduating fewer, but well-trained, dentists. Focus on recruiting people with the skills and the moral fiber for the job. That way, the folks who put in the time and monetary investment get their due financial rewards, and people get quality care. Assumptions about older dentists retiring (but with no way of enforcing this) while increasing/allowing foreign dentists en masse is not the way to go.

For new grads, I would definitely keep saturation as a vital concern. It's not to the point where the field is in dire danger, because a good living still can be made if you are smart and wise about where and how you practice. But I would definitely keep the idea in mind, because it is definitely real in many areas, particularly urban regions, and this should be factored in strategically in ones professional outlook.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cold Front]

Cold front, I am quite surprised that someone like you actually buy into this shortage BS. I generally like your posts and didnt think that you actually wrote what I just read. Now, dentistry is better than a lot of the other fields in at our numbers are more or less regulated, but a lot of your claims are just . . . . baseless. I have always found the assumption about older dentists retiring en masse to be just an assumption-- and a very presumptuous one at that. Sure, some older dentists get tired and want to leave, but many I know personally want to hold into their offices and have someone work for them as a self-regenerating form if retirement pension. As far as your claims about population growth, I can't say because I have no data onhand to back up either way. However, what growth there may be in my mind comes from illegal immigration or people who need welfare, hardly the types that the profession can thrive on.

As for class sizes, don't underestimate the impact of size increases. Some schools are making massive class increases particularly for international students. For example, the year that I was graduated my class had 12 international students but e year after me they expanded almost 3-fold to 30 of them; many schools are already vastly expanding so I wouldn't dismiss this as insignificant. And as for your claims about female dentists not having a lot of debt, I am not sure where you are getting is from. Assuming that female dentists on average gets spread out among the schools fairly evenly and that the average dental debt is about 250k nowadays, I can't see any basis for your casual dismissal of this key stat. Your assumption about females more likely to come from more affuent families or joining the military is also a reach. Do you have any stats to back this up? From my own experience, my female classmates come from just the same background as my male ones, and I see far more males going to the military route. As for straight up admission of foreign dentists, google that yourself. CA (no surprise) is already doing it.

I think any real "shortage" is more of a distribution problem. Claims about general shortage, in my opinion, is a lie propagated by the academia to drum up more enthusiasm for the profession and bring hype to the society. Don't believe me? Look and see for yourself. Pretty much any and all metro areas are saturated, some more so than others but all big cities have A LOT of dentists. The best way to ensure the fields future is to focus on graduating fewer, but well-trained, dentists. Focus on recruiting people with the skills and the moral fiber for the job. That way, the folks who put in the time and monetary investment get their due financial rewards, and people get quality care. Assumptions about older dentists retiring (but with no way of enforcing this) while increasing/allowing foreign dentists en masse is not the way to go.

For new grads, I would definitely keep saturation as a vital concern. It's not to the point where the field is in dire danger, because a good living still can be made if you are smart and wise about where and how you practice. But I would definitely keep the idea in mind, because it is definitely real in many areas, particularly urban regions, and this should be factored in strategically in ones professional outlook.

Just my 2 cents.

I understand you have a different opinion on this, but I can send you data support my opinion.

Fareed Zakaria is a CNN reporter who has his own show that airs every Sunday about the progress of this country. I watched his show couple of weekends ago, and he aired an international study on growing developed nations, and the US was number 1. You should not assume all US immigration ends up on food stamps and depending on government to live in the US. The US takes a lot of professionals, including dentists, more than any country, to migrate to the US to work and live here, to contribute to the overall progress of our society. Many of the immigrants have more children than the existing US population, and those youth actually become one of the brightest people that makes America what it is today. lIf you don't know this is happening, a simple google search can help you with this trend in population growth. You should be more kind to illegal immigration, this country was found on illegal immigration by Europeans, not suggesting that illegal immigration is good, but I find it absurd that when we over react to it.

When I talked about female new grads and their choices after school, I only talked about my personal experience with classmates and how many of them got into pediatric residencies.

I have 2 offices, and all my competition are dentists in their late 50's and older, about 7 of them, and I live in a city with almost 2 million people - if you include the greater area of the city. Trust me, my dentist competition work less hours, avoid certain procedures (endo, surgery, young kids, etc) and even limit number of patients they can see a day. They are in it not more so for the money, but as a hobby. I'm sure this exists in many other parts of the country. Yes distribution is an issue, but there is plenty of fish if you open your eyes and pick the right spots.

Good discussion.

 

[Silent Cool]

I understand you have a different opinion on this, but I can send you data support my opinion.

Fareed Zakaria is a CNN reporter who has his own show that airs every Sunday about the progress of this country. I watched his show couple of weekends ago, and he aired an international study on growing developed nations, and the US was number 1. You should not assume all US immigration ends up on food stamps and depending on government to live in the US. The US takes a lot of professionals, including dentists, more than any country, to migrate to the US to work and live here, to contribute to the overall progress of our society. Many of the immigrants have more children than the existing US population, and those youth actually become one of the brightest people that makes America what it is today. lIf you don't know this is happening, a simple google search can help you with this trend in population growth. You should be more kind to illegal immigration, this country was found on illegal immigration by Europeans, not suggesting that illegal immigration is good, but I find it absurd that when we over react to it.

When I talked about female new grads and their choices after school, I only talked about my personal experience with classmates and how many of them got into pediatric residencies.

I have 2 offices, and all my competition are dentists in their late 50's and older, about 7 of them, and I live in a city with almost 2 million people - if you include the greater area of the city. Trust me, my dentist competition work less hours, avoid certain procedures (endo, surgery, young kids, etc) and even limit number of patients they can see a day. They are in it not more so for the money, but as a hobby. I'm sure this exists in many other parts of the country. Yes distribution is an issue, but there is plenty of fish if you open your eyes and pick the right spots.

Good discussion.

Cold Front,

For an enterprising dentist who wants to set-up shop like you did, what parts of the country would you recommend? How did you decide where to locate yourself?

thanx
😎

 

[Cold Front]

Cold Front,

For an enterprising dentist who wants to set-up shop like you did, what parts of the country would you recommend? How did you decide where to locate yourself?

thanx
😎

That's a whole another topic and I don't want to hijack this thread. Send me a PM and see if I can give you some guidance.

 

[Silent Cool]

That's a whole another topic and I don't want to hijack this thread. Send me a PM and see if I can give you some guidance.

Thanks.

 

[Ferneezy]

cold keeps his location pretty close to the vest. don't exactly blame him either, but it would be nice to at least have some kind of idea where a relatively young practitioner can establish and thrive with two offices not even five years after graduation.

 

[Some Pig]

...

As for class sizes, don't underestimate the impact of size increases...

Check out what has happened to law school graduates. A great analysis of law school vs. dental school in terms of oversaturation (and this was in 2009: lets hope the dental profession doesn't take the same path of self destruction):

"Dental School v Law School":

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/dental-school-v-law-school.html

"Number of Schools: How many blogs started by unemployed, broke, angry dental practitioners do you run across? Look at the numbers – dental graduates each year are less than 5000. There are only 56 ADA-approved dental schools in the United States. And the number of schools and seats has actually declined from the mid-1980s!! In contrast, the 190+ ABA-approved law schools graduate in excess of 40,000 students each year."

 

[yappy]

In some ways I feel like getting a law degree became a hobby for people. I have meet many people through the years who acquired law degrees who had no intention of practicing law. This same group of people tended to view it as a replacement for an MBA and perused executive corporate positions.

Like I said - it almost seemed like a feather in their cap rather than an interest in entering the law profession. Very odd.

 

[Silent Cool]

In some ways I feel like getting a law degree became a hobby for people. I have meet many people through the years who acquired law degrees who had no intention of practicing law. This same group of people tended to view it as a replacement for an MBA and perused executive corporate positions.

Like I said - it almost seemed like a feather in their cap rather than an interest in entering the law profession. Very odd.

Yeah, a friend of mine who finished at a prestigious law school a few years ago told me that half the people he knows from his class aren't even practicing law!!

 

[Cold Front]

cold keeps his location pretty close to the vest. don't exactly blame him either, but it would be nice to at least have some kind of idea where a relatively young practitioner can establish and thrive with two offices not even five years after graduation.

What I say about my experience was said by others on these forums multiple times, maybe not in great detail, but there are other SDNers who are very business savvy and doing well with their careers through their offices. I use to browse these forums and DentalTown during dental school lectures - all four years, even before that in some cases.

Best advice I can give you is, I would say start with at least 10 years plan, and make sure it's both financial and personal life plan (like where you see yourself living, starting family, etc). Don't limit yourself by just planning a year or 2 from now, long term plans are easier to execute than short term plans. Then start going backwards to today and see if you are realistic enough for you to execute them.

The best place to pick for a dental office location is to see where other retailers are competing; cvs, subway, and other chains. This is where the traffic is, and such locations draw a lot of potential patients and helps you be more exposed to the community - even if those people don't become patients, they will mention it to someone they live with, work with or even run into for the first time. So this is marketing without you spending money directly on marketing. Yes, you might have to pay little more on the rent for the space, but it will pay for itself.

Other things to look for are obviously, dental competition, street traffic, total homes and school in the area, good parking, street exposure, Etc. These are basic guidelines, and most of this can be researched online through google. For available commercial spaces, look them up on loopnet.com. I usually prefer upcoming new developments, and try to make landlord build the space to my needs, so I save tons of money this way, as oppose to leasing an existing space where I demolish walls and everything.

Finally, a good research will dictate partly how successful your business will be, so make sure you take it seriously and thoroughly. Some dentists rush to spaces without looking up things they should, or misunderstand the concept of overhead, or don't effectively treatment plan, or don't have good chairside manners, or scared to educate themselves about business side of dentistry. Whatever it may be, you need to know all of the above to what suits you best and your needs to run a dental office.

It's not a topic that can be discussed in couple of posts, but it's a long term learning process, and how eager you are willing to learn will decide how soon you can get to the things you wish to accomplish.