DO's and US FMG's shouldn't be allowed to practice US medicine

[orthoguy]

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As far as I can tell all US FMG's and DO's do is saturate already saturated job markets. Let's be honest here too, there isn't a DO in the world who grew-up wanting to be a DO, nor is there a US FMG who always wanted to go to "Ross" or a medical school in Mexico. These are individuals who could not hack the grades to get to an allopathic residency and wound-up in the unfortunate loophole the system provides so that poor students can get trained at abysmal medical institutions and provide second-rate medical care to individuals who just know that they are being taken care of by a "doctor."

I have yet to find any merit in a non-US allopathic training route to practice in this country. You really are going to "manipulate" people's ailments away? No, you went there not because you believed in their philosophy but b/c you got a 25 on your MCAT with a 3.1 GPA.

The US used to have the best medical system in the country. You ask any foreign-born/foreign trained physician and they will tell you that the US was the Mecca of medical education. Unfortunately with the rise of the poor man's MD (a DO), US FMG's, and PA's with prescribing power our system continues to be decimated more and more.

The only alternative I see is to stop the DO schools from churning out 250+ incompetent grads each and let US FMG's who train in foreign countries practice medicine in the countries they fled to learn in. Until this happens our system will continue to deteriorate.

 

[Adapt]

You're sad.

 

[gasman2003]

All I can say is that I hope you aren't in "the system" because I don't want you for a colleague.

You are uneducated and undoubtedly not a physician. If you are a physician you aren't worth the air you breathe.

If you come in to my OR as a trauma patient I hope I get to manage your peri-operative care. You may find yourself on a subtherapeutic pain control regimen....

I could tell some great stories about mistakes made when orthopods try to fire more than one neuron at a time.

A lot of people don't dream of growing up to be ignorant jerks but it doesn't stop orthoguy from existing.

Orthoguy is an ER resident wannabe if you look at his other posts... He isn't even a physician...

 

[NotShorty]

Let's be honest here too, there isn't a DO in the world who grew-up wanting to be a DO


That's funny, as far as I can tell, I am in the world. (or ON it anyway.)

Apparently the survey you conducted was missing some data.

(and yes, I know he is a troll, and I BIT. So what?)

 

[MichiMO]

I have one main thing to say to this: USMLE...do you have so little faith in the US licencing examination that people not qualified to practice could pass it? If that is the case, blame the licencing standards, not DO's or FMG's.

Also, on a side note, what "overcrowded" job market are you speaking of? There are more than enough residency positions for every US medical graduate.

Also, doesn't more people applying for positions mean more competition....and doesn't more competition increase the quality of individuals accepted.

Finally, lets face it, if a residency director is given the choice between a US medical school graduate and an equally qualified DO (though I think DO's are fairly respected) or FMG...who do you think they are going to pick? I would bet they pick the US grad. 99% of the time.

You have some serious flaws in your logic.

 

[orthoguy]

Ad hominim attacks do nothing other than prove that you have no counter-argument for what I have stated. I am "sad", I am "not a physician" and you are going to cause me great pain by not administering me adequate pain management are all very intelligent and well thought out statements, yet they do nothing to contradict what I have stated. I am bringing up a valid point and instead of debating it with your own opinion you chose to attack me. What I am, and I am a physician, and neither ortho nor EM in spite of the provious posts, is irrelevant.

What I have stated is something that many in medicine know but do not state on this PC forum. The attitude of most in the medical industry coincides with what I was written above, one need only look at the institutions DO's and US FMG'S train at/the residencies they are accepted to in order to justify what was mentioned above.

 

[gasman2003]

Orthoguy/ER wannabe,

As a non-physician you are not able to comment on the thoughts of other physicians, but more importantly you lack my respect and therefore you aren't worth my time.

 

[VentdependenT]

Ortho, I'd bet big money that it took you over 45 min to construct that oh so eloquent piece of drivel.

I can't wait to see what contributions your genetic progeny will add to this ever flourishing american society.

Ventyboy

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by gasman2003
Orthoguy,

As a non-physician you are not able to comment on the thoughts of other physicians, but more importantly you lack my respect and therefore you aren't worth my time.

I will respond to this individual one more time and then I will not address myself again, merely the merits of my argument. The previous posts were not by me, they were by a friend who was searching for a career, I am a physician and I can comment on what I think and what many others do as well.

Now if someone has something intelligent to say, rather than getting defensive and blowing-up at me I would welcome comment.

 

[wick215]

Wow, who made you so angry. You need a a girlfriend or boyfriend to help expend all that hostile energy!!!

 

[MichiMO]

One other point...statistically, the almighty numbers of a medical school applicant (MCAT/GPA) relate less and less to preformance in medical school as medical school progresses and by the end of medical school, there is no correlation whatsoever.

In simple words, your numbers have little to do with whether or not you will do well in medical school or be a good doctor. So, I don't think you can assume that just because a school has a lower MCAT/GPA average for admitted students they will produce lower quality doctors.

In order to ensure this, medical schools must be approved in order for their students to qualify for a US residency and students must pass the same exams and fullfill the same requirements as US medical students.

 

[gasman2003]

You are the same person who posted all the ER wanna be stuff from before. I know this because the same whiny and low intellectual content persists throughout...

Everyone out there should read his old posts they are quite amusing.

This topic has been played out. I think little orthoguy is intimidated by having to compete against DOs and IMGs in the match because they are probably more qualified and have personality whereas he doesn't.

Try some new material and good luck with your career.

 

[orthoguy]

Thank you Michi for not attacking me but in stead levying a counter argument. What you must realize is that standardized exams in medical school can be passed by anyone who takes the time to understand the testing format. The issue is that a sub-par candidate who winds up at a DO school must also then be trained, clinically, by faculty and at institutions that are simply not to the allopathic standards. You will notice that the names of the hospitals where DO train are often rural, deeply inner city, or under-funded. Unfortunately the 3rd and 4th year of medical school are the most important years of training, where an early impression is established that will follow the future physician for the rest of his/her career. The DO student will always lack the excellent clinical training of an allopathic student, and this situation is even worse for a US-FMG. Again you show me the DO's in the surgical residencies at hopkins/MGH/Columbia/Cornell etc and I will agree that my argument is flawed. DO's are simply not respected by the conventional medical establishment and with good reason.


The anesthesia resident still seems to not to understand that attacking me is much different than actually having a counter-argument.

 

[gasman2003]

Using surgeons as your standard for intellectual capacity is probably not a good idea.

Also, my DO school has placed residents in surgery at UMass, Univ of AZ, Johns Hopkins, UAB, East Carolina, Univ New Mexico and Wake Forest just to name a few...

Get an education before you make ridiculous statements that you can't back-up.

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by gasman2003
Using surgeons as your standard for intellectual capacity is probably not a good idea.

Also, my DO school has placed residents in surgery at UMass, Univ of AZ, Johns Hopkins, UAB, East Carolina, Univ New Mexico and Wake Forest just to name a few...

Get an education before you make ridiculous statements that you can't back-up.

See I knew you were a DO with a chip on your shoulder. You guys wear it so awfully, it weighs down 1/2 of your body and can be seen affecting your gait from 100 yards away. I would still like to hear from anyone other than this individual who 1) will not provide me with pain management showing him to be the remarkable scholar that he is 2) believes surgeons and medical students are his intellectual inferior and 3) seems to know better than me who I am.

 

[MichiMO]

If what you say is true, which I am not sure it is, it is still an issue with licencing standards and testing. People should not be able to just study the testing format and pass the USMLE.

As far as the clinical skills component is concearned, beginning with either the class of 2006 or 2007, the USMLE step 2 will include a clinical component with "real" patients (I think they will actually be people trained to represent certain symptoms ect. This should address some of the concearns you have raised.

However, I do think you are making some gross generalizations. Not every DO or FMG is inferior to every US medical grad. Also, I did look at the residency lists of some impressive residency programs and DO's were on the list. Not overwhelmingly, but they were there (I remember being surprised being all the negative DO info. I have heard on SDN). I can't remember which programs exactly and don't have time to do a search, maybe someone else can pull up some, but I do know they exist.

 

[woundvac]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Let's be honest here too, there isn't a DO in the world who grew-up wanting to be a DO, nor is there a US FMG who always wanted to go to "Ross" or a medical school.

Did you grow up wanting to be a jackass?

 

[orthoguy]

Another wonderful argument.

I pose this to any DO (gasman etc) and I would seriously love a reponse.

1) How is it that you are using your homeopathic training in your profession/residency that justifies your "decision" to pursue a DO. I am sure that you do a great deal of manipulative medicine upon your surgical patients before putting them under.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by orthoguy
1) How is it that you are using your homeopathic training in your profession/residency that justifies your "decision" to pursue a DO.

Homeopathic? You don't even know the philosophy of DOs. Osteopathy and homeopathy are two different things. It looks bad to bash something when you don't have knowledge in the area.🙄

 

[gasman2003]

If you knew me, which you don't, you would know that I do not carry a "chip" on my shoulder. I do however take offense at a 4th year medical student who runs his mouth claiming that he knows what all physicians are thinking and goes into online forums attempting to discred the hard work of thousands of people (DOs/PAs/FMGs) who wake up every morning to take care of the sick. Who do you think you are?

Not that this is the issue, but I have a resume that is probably better than yours, excellent board scores, and am in a very competitive residency program, in as you know, a competitive specialty at one of the top 5 hospitals in this country. So becareful when you choose your battles.

Anyways, I know the match process is stressful but you don't have to get intimidated and take out your frustrations on all of us.

Attend your interviews, try not to let your true personality show, and hope for the best.

Be sure to tell the program directors, especially the allopathic ones, your thoughts on PAs/IMGs/DOs. I think they would be interested to hear your thoughts...Afterall, you know the program directors are thinking it, right??

 

[Energon]

I have to say, I find myself a little disturbed by this post. Nonetheless I agree that attacking Orthoguy really doesn?t do any good. So here goes?

The only six people I know in person who scored over a 255 in their stepI are from St. Georges (as opposed to ?I have a friend who has a friend who got a ?). 4 of these guys are also pretty much the gold standard for EM residents in the current graduating class.

2 People that I know from the same program who ranked in the top 2% in 2001 in their EM boards which are conducted nationally were D.O?s one from UMDNJ SOM and the other from some school in California.

I somehow think that there are two types of people who tend to discriminate DO and IMG?s.
1. Allopaths who went into the field hoping to be considered God (and refuse to give themselves a reality check once they find out that this is never going to happen)
2. People who are too stupid to get through medical education in the first place.

Orthoguy please don?t trap yourself in one of them.

 

[orthoguy]

Wow, you really hang onto your belief that I am a 4th year medical student and then state it over and over again as if it'll make it come true rather than actuallly talking about the merit in what I have to say. I could aslo sit here and espouse my CV but, again, unlike you, I do not feel I have to recite my resume and where I have trained to people I meet in order to justify my existence as a physician.

At any rate, I still stick by my initial notion and the only individual who has made a semi-reasonable argument has been Michi and I do appreciate that.

 

[ckent]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Another wonderful argument.

I pose this to any DO (gasman etc) and I would seriously love a reponse.

1) How is it that you are using your homeopathic training in your profession/residency that justifies your "decision" to pursue a DO. I am sure that you do a great deal of manipulative medicine upon your surgical patients before putting them under.

This is a flawed arguement since there isn't a physician out there that uses everything that he/she was taught in medical school on a regular basis. I was taught to memorize the Kreb cycle, interpret stains on path slides, and all the branches of the brachial plexus but I have yet to use any of that knowledge in my short lived clinical career.

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Again you show me the DO's in the surgical residencies at hopkins/MGH/Columbia/Cornell etc and I will agree that my argument is flawed. DO's are simply not respected by the conventional medical establishment and with good reason.

First, you have no argument. All you have are opinions. You haven't provided any facts to prove that DO's are less competent than MD's. Let's look at the above statement: by your reasoning, if a DO isn't in one of those programs, he/she must not be a good surgeon. Well, are all the MD surgeons training at one of these four programs? Of course not. So, what makes them competent? Ah, I see....you are really saying that ALL the MD programs are superior to ALL the DO programs. It follows then, according to you, that ALL the MD's are better than ALL the DO's. Now, I should hope that you are just toying with people by making that assertion, and that that isn't really the crux of your "argument," because that is nothing but laughable.

 

[gasman2003]

I would pay attention to the "merit" in what you have to say but I just can't seem to find any...

You never addressed my earlier post...the one where you were wrong about DOs at top allopathic surgery programs.

I am waiting for a response, and hopefully a meritorious one.

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by ckent
This is a flawed arguement since there isn't a physician out there that uses everything that he/she was taught in medical school on a regular basis. I was taught to memorize the Kreb cycle, interpret stains on path slides, and all the branches of the brachial plexus but I have yet to use any of that knowledge in my short lived clinical career.

Unfortunately it is not about the 1st 2 years of medical school that matters, which I stated in my previous post but the caliber of 3rd and 4th year training which simply is lacking at DO schools. They simply do not get the caliber of clinical eduacation that an allopath does. This is the way the system is, there is no arguing this point.

To respond to the previous post, I do not expect to be considered God, and i have 2 good friends who went the DO route, and like ALL of you out there it was b/c they did not have the grades to get to an allopathic school. This is a fact and I don't know why the DOs on this forum act as if the DO career was one that had wished for since childhood.

DO's are not respected by the conventional medical establishment and this is not going to change any time soon. When I was a medical student I saw the way DO students were treated as they did away rotations at hospitals of my school and it was atrocious. the education in this type of environment simply cannot thrive and DO hospitals have not established themselves as the type of training institutions that warrant this discussion.

 

[Energon]

Ortho, dont you think Physicians are good/ bad based on their clinical acumen and sound technique. I think developing both these are more of an intrinsic capability than an extrinsic one. Just because someone did a residency at Mass General doesn't necessarily make them a better clinician than someone say at Downstate. The MassGen person may have more research opportunity... but thats about it.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by orthoguy
i have 2 good friends who went the DO route, and like ALL of you out there it was b/c they did not have the grades to get to an allopathic school.

It must suck for those people who do choose DO over MD. They have to deal with people like you that have this stereotype.

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by orthoguy
I am sure that you do a great deal of manipulative medicine upon your surgical patients before putting them under.

And I'm sure you recite to your patients the intricate organization of a nephron before putting them under. Or, perhaps, you simply engage them with the kinds of arguments you have presented here. That's enough crap to put a bull elephant AND his mamma under.

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by AMMD
Ortho, dont you think Physicians are good/ bad based on their clinical acumen and sound technique. I think developing both these are more of an intrinsic capability than an extrinsic one. Just because someone did a residency at Mass General doesn't necessarily make them a better clinician than someone say at Downstate. The MassGen person may have more research opportunity... but thats about it.

Yes I do agree, but I am simply arguing that the opportunity is not there for the DO to excell clinically because of the lack of opportunity. I have stated my case about the poor clinical years that DO schools provide, how schools often take LARGE classes that would be unheard of at an Allopathic school and simply cannot be trained adequately (ie NYCOM's 250).

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by Qafas
And I'm sure you recite to your patients the intricate organization of a nephron before putting them under. Or, perhaps, you simply engage them with the kinds of arguments you have presented here. That's enough crap to put a bull elephant AND his mamma under.

While it is true that I do not remember every small bit of trivia I learned during medical school my degree's philosophy is not based upon somehting I will never use. A LARGE minorty of Osteopaths actually practice osteopathic medicine. Call a spade a spade and admit that a DO goes to DO school simply b/c their grades were restrictive when attempting to get into an allopathic school.

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Call a spade a spade and admit that a DO goes to DO school simply b/c their grades were restrictive when attempting to get into an allopathic school.

That is an assumption, and while that may be true for some, it certainly isn't true for all osteopaths. And, please, do enlighten us as to why so many allopathic students go to lower tier allopathic schools. Why don't they all apply to the likes of Harvard and Johns Hopkins? Surely, it can't be the "restrictive" grades that you speak of with regards to osteopathic students!🙄

 

[Bridaddy]

I'm still in college, and I can tell this orthoguy is full of crap. I couldn't imagine what actual physicans (other than those who posted here) think about this attitude.

They should interview everyone who takes the MCAT, and ad a section for personality.

 

[bigmuny]

Is LARGE minority an oxymoron, or is the OP just a *****.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by orthoguy
DO's are not respected by the conventional medical establishment and this is not going to change any time soon.

I would like to know where this is happening. I did not seem to come across it during my interviews for residency, in fact, many of the EM programs contacted me after my interviews asking for outside the match contracts (because I am a DO applicant and it is possible). Guess they (the conventional medical establishment) really didnt' respect me.

Q, DO

 

[bla_3x]

The issue is that a sub-par candidate who winds up at a DO school...

Hmmm?I got accepted to both of the allopathic schools that I applied to, go figure.🙄

For me, osteopathy was much more that a chance to learn manipulation, it was a culmination of a lot of factors like core philosophy and the ?types? of students who were to be my peers just to name two. I remember during my interview at AZCOM just how inspired I was just be the attitudes of the students and faculty. I KNEW then that I wanted to be a part of this institution. I knew that medical school is gonna be a very challenging time, and why would I want to make it worse by going to a school that I would not be happy with. Now, just 10 weeks into school, I know that I made the right choice...and I am gonna be a better doctor for it!

And the thing about DOs being treated like crap at whatever institutions the OP is talking about is sure different from the experiences I have had.

I strongly advise people to take the OPs post as the hand?s down funniest thing posted on SDN in a while!

?Sounds like his sig. other was a D.O. and gave him the boot! 😱

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Wow, you really hang onto your belief that I am a 4th year medical student and then state it over and over again as if it'll make it come true rather than actuallly talking about the merit in what I have to say.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=596348#post596348

"I am a 3rd year getting ready to start my 4th year and begin searching for the EM residency that will be right for me......."

posted 3/2003

That places you as a 4th year, yes?

 

[orthoguy]

Originally posted by tkim6599
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=596348#post596348

"I am a 3rd year getting ready to start my 4th year and begin searching for the EM residency that will be right for me......."

posted 3/2003

That places you as a 4th year, yes?

Read above and you will see that that was a friend of mine posting under this SN.

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Read above and you will see that that was a friend of mine posting under this SN.

Umm, no - don't see that. In fact, a significant portion of your ~60 posts are about EM spots. This coming from someone with a username of 'orthoguy'.

I guess it's true students change their choice of specialty at least once during school ...

 

[ERMudPhud]

Originally posted by orthoguy
The previous posts were not by me, they were by a friend who was searching for a career

Orthoguy first appeared 8/02 and posted in a variety forums mostly looking for residency with the best lifestyle which would result in a career with the best money and hours. He tended to get kind of pissy when people didn't answer his questions the way he wanted and more pissy when people laughed at him for getting pissy. He didn't seem to have such a strong anti-FMG bias since he was actually able to point one poster to FMG friendly residencies.

However, the original Orthoguy from the very beginning had a characteristic style. The "." key on his computer was stuck. Go back and look. You'll see what I mean. The new and not so improved Orthoguy seems to have fixed his "." So we are left with two possibilities. 1.) Orthoguy fixed his computer but is a 4th year medical student like he said. 2.) Someone else is impersonating Orthoguy to cause trouble.

In the second scenario the new evil orthoguy would be in violation of the following SDN rule, "never post a message under another person's name or pretending to be another person. " as well as the often violated no flame wars rule. So long evil Ortho guy. Before you go though a few thoughts on your arguments.

1.Homeopathy doesn't equal osteopathy.
2.How do you know so much about 3rd and 4th year at a DO school, "did you go to one or rotate through one?"
3. To prove your point you need some objective measure of physician quality.
Looking at the numbers at a high caliber programs isn't really valid since those programs tend to take their own and if they don't necesarily share your malignant prejudice they are aware of it and are clearly afraid of the effect it might have on the reputation of their program should they take a DO. A PD once told me that but then turned around and took a DO the next year. Board scores, malpractice rates, or licensing board actions might be a better measure but I doubt you'll find much to support your argument there.
4. I'm not denying that DO's have a tough time in some fields but that doesn't make them stupid or incompetent, only disadvantaged. There are excellent DO's and crappy MD's I've met both.

 

[Idiopathic]

Originally posted by orthoguy
Wow, you really hang onto your belief that I am a 4th year medical student

I think that you are a high-school junior...either way, you matter naught. The world is full of your types, thankfully. For your arrogance is what forces your patients away from your practice. Go spend a day with a good osteopathic clinician and talk to me about clinical skills (you have none) or take a lecture from Ed Goljan and talk to me about subpar training (more than likely it was yours) or come with me on rotations and tell me how bad of an impression I must be making when people find out I am a dreaded 'DO'. This isnt a chip, it is simply the truth. You have nothing better to do with your time, so you must have the chip.

 

[Idiopathic]

Oh, yeah...I also outscored you on the MCAT. How does that feel?

 

[gasman2003]

Orthoguy also states that DOs/FMGs/midlevel providers are responsible for the deterioration of US healthcare. I would like to see some data on that as well.

Last time I checked the average life expectancy of this country is increasing, and we are at a time in medicine where innovation is at an all-time high. I fail to see how our system is falling apart.

Remember that DOs/FMGs comprise 30 percent of US physicians, so if your opinion were accurate this wouldn't be the case.

Orthoguy, I submit to you that eventually, after you graduate from medical school, your opinions in this matter will significantly change. And maybe it will take an experience like having a senior resident who is an IMG or a DO, who helps bail you out of a bad situation while on-call, maybe one of your loved ones will fall under the care of a DO/IMG, etc. Anyway, when that moment does happen you will look back at the comments you have made in this forum and be full of regret.

 

[orthoguy]

Wow, it really is impossible for all of you to realize that orthoguy is a friend of mine whose screen-name I am using and that he is a 4th year medical student but I am not. Alas, I guess I will have to sign-up for a new screen-name in order to make this a moot argument, and I think that orthoguy will probably have to search out another screen-name thanks to my posts since he will obviously not be well liked thanks to my posts.

At any rate, I have re-though my original argument and have decided that DO's may indeed have a funciton, that is to serve as primary care physicians in rural and inner-city communities. I am afraid that from what I have seen all else is above them. And to answer the PHD who works in the ER (what a unique career route) when I was a medical student I rotated at some of my school's "inner-city" hospitals where DO's from a school would rotate through. So I have seen them in action and I have seen how their training is miserable.

Everyone seems to be avoiding discussing the elephant in the room that DO's go to DO school simply b/c they cannot get into allopathic school not b/c they disagree with the allopathic philosophy.

And I would love to know how the previous poster has ANY ideas about my clinical skills/MCAT grade/or training. Suffice it to say, where I have trained and where I am nowcertainly do not concern me and shouldn't you either.

 

[pez]

I'm an allopathic student now, and I can tell you that there are some real duds in my class and some extremly bright ones. Some of them will probably be first class physicians, others will probably be mediocre. I'm sure that in DO schools there exists just the same condition. You're really talking about such minor differences. A 30 on the Mcat vs. a 26 in reality means very little.
The same exists for my residents. I have a DO resident who is one of the best I've worked with. He's great with patients, knows a lot about pathophysiology, and is excellent with treatment.
You can't generalize like that.

I think a resonable solution is to open more spots in med schools or even open new ones so that good american students don't have to leave the country to train.

 

[flindophile]

Originally posted by pez

I think a resonable solution is to open more spots in med schools or even open new ones so that good american students don't have to leave the country to train.

I think this would solve most of orthoguy's complaints.
-- better quality control of education
-- squeeze FMGs out of the residency market

On the other hand, FMGs provide a flexible and low-cost source of manpower that can be controlled by residency slots and visas. In contrast, the medical school pipeline is longer, and because of the long lead time, harder to match supply and demand. It is easy to adjust the flow of FMGs but difficult to build or close a med school. Thus, if quality of FMGs can be insured via USMLE testing and residency training, FMGs provide a flexible source of manpower.

I do agree with orthoguy that MOST people go the DO route or overseas because they didn't have the grades to get into allopathic schools. But so what? What if there were only 10 allopathic slots -- would everyone else be second rate? The same logic applies if there 16,000 slots. The number of slots is arbitrary. While I agree that the allopathic schools get first pick and the stats of the entering classes are stronger, it doesn't mean that those who go to the next tier lack the ability to do medicine.

Orthoguy is focuing on the wrong end of the system: inputs vs outputs. It is the output that counts. Orthoguy is arguing, in part, that the output of allopathic schools is superior because the input is of higher quality. Perhaps, but it is a tenous argument. I would like to see data showing the relative performance of allopathic MDs, DOs and FMGs in clinical performance -- where it counts.

 

[Idiopathic]

And I would love to know how the previous poster has ANY ideas about my clinical skills/MCAT grade/or training. Suffice it to say, where I have trained and where I am nowcertainly do not concern me and shouldn't you either. [/QUOTE]

But where I train seems to concern you. These posts reek of bitterness. Perhaps you went to an allopathic school and didnt match where you wanted to (or didnt match at all), and choose to blame the "FMG's and osteopaths" for screwing it up. Very similar to the anti-affirmative action arguments (if only it weren't for those blacks, I would have gotten my top choice). Perhaps your obvious lack of people skills has hurt you along the way. That is sad, because I am sure your knowledge of biochemistry and anatomy are excellent...if only you could deal with LIVING people. Oh, well, I have a pretty good idea about you, but I also just took a mind-numbing exam, so I decided to 'feed the troll' against my better judgement.

 

[Idiopathic]

Originally posted by flindophile
While I agree that the allopathic schools get first pick and the stats of the entering classes are stronger

For the most part, this is the most accurate way the situation can be described. We still have several people in our class who turned down allopathic spots to come here. But, on the whole, the incoming stats of allopathic school are higher (and we all know that stats show how good a doctor you are going to be...that makes me laugh, when everyone was complaining about the MCAT, it was "this test doesnt have anything to do with how good a doctor I am going to be", but once you score higher than someone, and get into a 'better' school than them, it correlates EXACTLY with your clinical proficiency.)

 

[Dr_sax]

This thread makes me laugh. Your original post was blatantly antagonistic (if it wasn't intended to be, then you need to learn how to phrase your sentences better) and yet when someone takes it as an attack, you come back with some snide remark about his/her comment.

Tell me honestly: did you post here to provoke thought or to provoke PEOPLE ?

I'm happy for you and whatever success you have earned. Unfortunately, I don't feel that anyone here will debate you the way you may want. This thread, like so many before, will turn into a "yes it is, no it isn't" flame war. Oh wait, it already has.

Dr_sax

 

[Su4n2]

hey A$$,

NYCOM's third year affiliates with like 20 hospitals, most of them in NYC. These are many of the same hospitals that Downstate, NYu, etc rotates through. i am willing to bet that our clinical rotations are better then 90% of med schools who are outside major metro areas.

if someone from NYCOM can paste the clinical rotations, it wouldbe great, my comouter keeps freezing when i try to do it.

stupid troll.