DO's applying allopathic 2015-2016

[notdeadyet]

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Good points. If you're not going to devote the time, it's probably better to just limit yourself to COMLEX- friendly programs. I just think an investment of more time for the sake of wider residency options later makes more sense.

 

[Dharma]

This has to depend on a lot of factors. USMLE isn't free and I don't just mean cost. It has a fair amount of context differently tested, and plain old different content, than is on comlex. Time taken away from one test towards studying for another has a cost.

Take a typical 4 week dedicated study period. 24 days dedicated time for usmle, then 3 more days for savarese OMM review, then comlex on day 28. An extra pass at pathoma in those three days would be worth more than the savarese book for USMLE. Not at all going over biochem and focusing much more on microbio would be better for COMLEX. Instead, those of us who take both tests make compromises.

Imo, if you're not going to do better than the psych average on USMLE, better to consolidate your resources and take one test. A low USMLE isn't going to open any doors while a failure closes some and risks a lower comlex score.

I don't know man. I just studied for USMLE, added a bit of Savarese for the OMM, and let it ride. Treated the COMLEX as an afterthought. Worked for me... And definitely not a genius. I don't buy into this need to study for two exams thing. It's the same content basically.

Anecdotally speaking, I've had a few PDs mention that me taking the USMLE is the game changer. It's the gold standard. Will applicants land invites without it? Yeah sure. But will they do as well as they can without? I don't think it's a stretch to say no.

 

[Dharma]

Good points. If you're not going to devote the time, it's probably better to just limit yourself to COMLEX- friendly programs. I just think an investment of more time for the sake of wider residency options later makes more sense.

Exactly. And then what happens when osteopathic student A. without USMLE is compared to osteopathic student B with a USMLE score when all other factors are relatively equal? I'm thinking B has better chances. The B's are growing!

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Exactly. And then what happens when osteopathic student A. without USMLE is compared to osteopathic student B with a USMLE score when all other factors are relatively equal? I'm thinking B has better chances. The B's are growing!

I'm trying really hard to convince my brother (who's in DO school) to take the USMLE. What method did you use to study for it? He's convinced he needs to do this $9,000 course where you go live at some sort of USMLE camp.

 

[Dharma]

I'm trying really hard to convince my brother (who's in DO school) to take the USMLE. What method did you use to study for it? He's convinced he needs to do this $9,000 course where you go live at some sort of USMLE camp.

Pathoma, FA, UWorld, and the Green Book for OMM. Annotate info from UWorld into FA. I think those alone should do the trick for most. That and a few of the NBME practice exams.

 

[temoojin]

Pathoma, FA, UWorld, and the Green Book for OMM. Annotate info from UWorld into FA. I think those alone should do the trick for most. That and a few of the NBME practice exams.

Totally agree. I studied the same way. Took USMLE Tuesday, opened Savarese Thursday, took COMLEX Friday. I am also by no means a genius and passed both no problem, had way more WTF? moments during the COMLEX and actually scored higher percentage-wise on it vs. the USMLE. I don't understand this DO fear of biochemistry. Learn the pathways in FA and you're fine. I would have studied the same exact way even if I was only taking COMLEX.

If you're not passing NBME's a week or so out from the real thing, maybe reconsider taking the USMLE. Just be smart and realistic with yourself.

 

[Dharma]

Totally agree. I studied the same way. Took USMLE Tuesday, opened Savarese Thursday, took COMLEX Friday. I am also by no means a genius and passed both no problem, had way more WTF? moments during the COMLEX and actually scored higher percentage-wise on it vs. the USMLE. I don't understand this DO fear of biochemistry. Learn the pathways in FA and you're fine. I would have studied the same exact way even if I was only taking COMLEX.

If you're not passing NBME's a week or so out from the real thing, maybe reconsider taking the USMLE. Just be smart and realistic with yourself.

I don't understand the biochem fear either. There wasn't a pathway in FA that I didn't need to know at some point during medical school. Biochem was included in every system covered. There really wasn't even that much on the USMLE.

Anyhow, that last point made above is key regarding practice exams. They are excellent at gauging one's preparedness. If after a few one does not see improvement than bag the USMLE. But IMO no one should go in thinking they will not take it. Every student should start school with the idea that they will take the USMLE and prepare accordingly.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Ever notice that the only people arguing to not take USMLEs are medical students? I have never heard anyone involved in the selection process suggest not taking them.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I don't understand the biochem fear either. There wasn't a pathway in FA that I didn't need to know at some point during medical school. Biochem was included in every system covered. There really wasn't even that much on the USMLE.

Anyhow, that last point made above is key regarding practice exams. They are excellent at gauging one's preparedness. If after a few one does not see improvement than bag the USMLE. But IMO no one should go in thinking they will not take it. Every student should start school with the idea that they will take the USMLE and prepare accordingly.

Ironically my Step 1 Comlex was ladened with Biochem. Since I had been studying for the USMLE the Comlex biochem felt like the equivalent of high school questioning. Meanwhile I heard classmates discussing the questions with angst and confusion during the lunch break.

Studying for the USMLE only makes you a stronger Comlex taker, at least in regards to Step1.

 

[kirkirkir]

Anything besides taking USMLE? Has being a DO come up in anyone's interviews?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It would be fairly rude to invite you and then make you feel defensive about your degree. I suppose some faculty who didn't make the invitation decisions might do this, but it would be bad form in my book.

 

[DrMeowMeow]

None of my interviewers ever asked about DO. The only time it was brought up was with a PD who went to my school and was involved in an osteopathic psychiatry organization

 

[Dharma]

Anything besides taking USMLE? Has being a DO come up in anyone's interviews?

My apologies. I haven't updated the status section since starting this account. I'm an intern, did well on USMLE step 1, COMLEX level 1, USMLE step 2, COMLEX level 2, and COMLEX level 3, all first time, just trying to share my experience.

And apologies to those above if my argument was not clear. I am not suggesting all DOs not take the USMLE. Go in to school as if USMLE wasn't an option.

We at SDN are privileged to be part of a community where a 240 is considered only an average score, at least in the step threads. In psychiatry especially, where our averages tend to be lower than most specialties, there is a large segment of us who plain old aren't great test takers. Our average USMLE in 2015 was what, 226? What percentage of us do you think have a 200 or a 210? Probably pretty high. Does that score help anyone compared to no score but a passing and otherwise better than it would have been (see below reasoning) COMLEX? Honest question. I have no idea but would assume not. That is the segment of test takers my post is addressing.

To those above me talking about there COMLEX having heavy biochem, the plural of anecdote is not data. These are two different tests with some overlap. Bugs, drugs, and OMM are the things historically MUCH more heavily tested on COMLEX. Take all that extra time you used studying microbio flashcards or CMMRS, all that time on Savarese, and not just during dedicated study time but during the year, put it towards more UFAP, and don't you expect a pretty big improvement on USMLE? Why wouldn't you expect the same magnitude of improvement on COMLEX if you spent less time on the non bugs/drugs/OMM stuff?

In my case, which I think is pretty typical, that amounted to an extra 3 days of Savarese during dedicated time and a good 10-12 hrs of microbio cards. Let's call it 4 days of extra studying. Or 3.5 as USMLE has some microbio but tested much more rationally . And that's not counting the COMSAEs vs NBME assessments or the hundreds of random ethics and OMM questions we do for COMLEX qbanks vs the much more detailed biochem review we do for USMLE, etc. That's extra time isn't the world but it's pretty significant non optimized study time.

If you follow the above reasoning then this is not simply comparing candidate A with USMLE to candidate B without USMLE. It's comparing candidate A with (USMLE -x amount of points from non optimized study time) and (COMLEX - y amount of points from non optimized study time) to candidate B with (COMLEX + y amount of points from optimized study time) where x and y correspond to points from an extra 3.5 days or so during dedicated study time and some from more time throughout the school year. That y is probably negligible for most on here posting, but for those with a low USMLE, or those who strike out and get a USMLE failure, I believe it makes a difference.

That said, I'm not on any residency interview committees yet and would be interested in hearing how or if people compare COMLEX and USMLE in the real world. Is a passing but low USMLE worth something?

Good points. The last sentence is where the money-shot is at though. If a student's practice exams are not hovering around national average, then said student should probably not take the exam.

But not because it takes extra time studying. (I really don't feel it's THAT much more). It's the same material besides the OMM. Sure one exam focuses on more of a particular topic than others, but not enough that one should devote more time to said subject. As students we should devote more time to our weaknesses. Just my opinion, but if a student goes hard with his USMLE prep, he's likely to do well on the COMLEX. This isn't always the case. That said, if one does well on the USMLE, the COMLEX essentially means nothing, assuming one passes.

In terms of the extra time required to study for both exams, I don't think it's much more than a couple of days, tops. (FYI I ditched any COMLEX related qbanks bc I thought they were garbage. UWorld and NBME's were the go-to source). The real burden is taking two marathon exams. That feeling of finishing one and then realizing you have another one within a week... that kinda stinks and it does take the wind out of one's sails a bit. Taking the USMLE first however... the COMLEX felt like a walk in the park, at least in terms of stamina (bc we all the challenges presented by the COMLEX).

 

[Dharma]

Anything besides taking USMLE? Has being a DO come up in anyone's interviews?

I had one bring it up in regards to the AOA requirements for internship year since the program was in one of the states that require an AOA-approved intern year. The PD then went on to say how ridiculous it is that we have to deal with such things and expressed how hopefully it will be going away with the merger.

Other than that, it was never brought up. As an aside, I actually saw a lot of DO students on the trail, and some of the programs were "competitive" although not "top" places. For a DO student, most of the "top" places are untouchable.

Actually... now that I'm writing about this, I do remember another person bringing up the DO thing. My first interview. The chair was looking at my ERAS application and came across my scores and mentioned something along the lines of being impressed. He then said "you understand that if it were not for the fact that you are a DO you would be receiving invites from elite programs? The Columbias and Cornells would not a take DO." That was a strange moment.