DOs in allo EM residencies

[arkroyal]

did any of u guys take both board tests and where are you guys doing your residencies?

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[corpsmanUP]

did any of u guys take both board tests and where are you guys doing your residencies?

Absolutely take both boards.....no question. Anyone who doesn't is just asking to get rejected by many programs. It opened the door for me actually...many a PD told me exactly such. The worst thing that can happen is that you will bomb it. If you test well on COMLEX though, you are likely to test well on USMLE.

And just got my PE result back today....I PASSED! No flying back to Phili for me!! Glad to know that not draping all those patients didn't get me failed.

 

[Quimby2]

Doing EM residency at allopathic King/Drew.

Took both sets through step 2 ---definately reccomend this route. Same story as above --i had numerous PD's say it was the reason they were able to interview me. It's not that the COMLEX is looked upon unfavorably, but it allows the PD to compare "apples with apples".

Keep in mind that if you bomb the USMLE you do not have to release the scores.

 

[bla_3x]

Doing EM residency at allopathic King/Drew.

...Keep in mind that if you bomb the USMLE you do not have to release the scores.

Just to clarify, our class was informed that if you take USMLE you DO have to report the results regarless of your performance.

 

[fuegorama]

Asked before, but love answer updates.

Can a decent step2 make up for a poor step1, or will the poor step1 knock you out early regardless of other performances?

 

[corpsmanUP]

Just to clarify, our class was informed that if you take USMLE you DO have to report the results regarless of your performance.

There is no compelling reason to report bad USMLE scores if you don't wish. They will never know if you don't add it to ERAS.

 

[bla_3x]

There is no compelling reason to report bad USMLE scores if you don't wish. They will never know if you don't add it to ERAS.

Maybe someone who took the USMLE this year could inform us. I did not take it, but I remember during some dean's meeting that te scores would be reported if you took the USMLE.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Maybe someone who took the USMLE this year could inform us. I did not take it, but I remember during some dean's meeting that te scores would be reported if you took the USMLE.

I DID take the USMLE this year, and last year took step I. The only WAY to report it is to click on the spot in ERAS that says you are willing to release it. If you don't release it, then essentially you never took it. In fact, it would actually be possible to do it in reverse and not report your COMLEX score. Because most allo programs don't care or know what to make of it anyway. But no, there is no possible way that anyone in the world can get their hands on your USMLE scores or even know that you took it without you releasing it to them. Its protected like a college transcript or even your checking account. The only problem you might have is if a PD looks you in the eye and asks you if you took it or not. Then you would actually be lying if you said no. Witholding info is not necessarily the same as flat out lying. I don't agree with not being completely honest, but to each their own. I'm just giving you the facts...do what you wish with them. Call NBME if you don't believe me.

 

[streetdoc]

I DID take the USMLE this year, and last year took step I. The only WAY to report it is to click on the spot in ERAS that says you are willing to release it. If you don't release it, then essentially you never took it. In fact, it would actually be possible to do it in reverse and not report your COMLEX score. Because most allo programs don't care or know what to make of it anyway. But no, there is no possible way that anyone in the world can get their hands on your USMLE scores or even know that you took it without you releasing it to them. Its protected like a college transcript or even your checking account. The only problem you might have is if a PD looks you in the eye and asks you if you took it or not. Then you would actually be lying if you said no. Witholding info is not necessarily the same as flat out lying. I don't agree with not being completely honest, but to each their own. I'm just giving you the facts...do what you wish with them. Call NBME if you don't believe me.

I may be mistaken (often i am), but i thought i read somewhere that the program can see the date you took the test. therefore, if you took, but not released, that could be a red flag. there was a thread about deciding to release scores...check it out. i think it was BKN (the all-knowing wise one) that informed us about that. i'll look for the thread
streetdoc

 

[streetdoc]

I may be mistaken (often i am), but i thought i read somewhere that the program can see the date you took the test. therefore, if you took, but not released, that could be a red flag. there was a thread about deciding to release scores...check it out. i think it was BKN (the all-knowing wise one) that informed us about that. i'll look for the thread
streetdoc

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=254456

hope that works...and helps.
if not consider this a
streetdoc

 

[corpsmanUP]

I'm not going to argue the point of morals and ethics. Thats for you guys to work out on your own. I really could give a sh$t less whether you actually tell your Mommy that you spent your 5th grade lunch money on X all year and thats why you lost 19 pounds that year!!!! Its just not my business. I am simply serving in the consulting capacity here by telling you that there is no freaking way in he)) that anyone can know you took the USMLE if you don't tell them. Its a little secret between you and the NBME. Your school won't even know unless you give them a copy of the score or allow one to be released to them. My school gives an award for the top USMLE I and II at graduation dinner and by all accounts I probably have Step II wrapped up. But, I am not even bothering to tell them I took it so I certainly won't get the award. I just don't give a darn.

But since you seem to desire facts, I'll give them to you. When you fill out ERAS, it asks you to fill in the dates of exams you have taken, passed, and anticipate taking. The only way ERAS even communicates with the NBME is if you 1) tell them you took or plan to take this exam, or 2) check the box to have them release the USMLE transcript. And on top of that, you have the ability to take and report Step I of the USMLE and completely withhold info on the USMLE Step II. You can do this by either not telling them you took it and waiting to see how you did before re-requesting the transcript be released from NBME (which only takes like half a day anyway once you click to re-release it). Or, you can simply NEVER release it should you bomb the crap out of it.

I personally released all of them at the first time, way before I had even taken the Step II. I just believe in being honest about it and I was confident it would only help me when I got my results. Do what you wish with this information, but it will become much more clear to you when you fill out your ERAS. I actually believe though that as a DO you should do as well on the USMLE Step II as any MD, and you should be required to pass them both (Step I and Step II USMLE) to practice. It lends more credibility to the DO profession and weeds out those who barely passed the joke-of-a-COMLEX and who could NEVER pass the USMLE. I'll probably burn in hell for saying this and/or be lynched by some mad mob of craniosacral practicing DO's, but there exists a population of DO's (probably bottom 2.5%) who could NEVER pass the USMLE...not even close. There are a couple in my class.


I replied on the thread above to get BKN's final verdict...if I am wrong I will completely admit it.

 

[rh]

There were 7 DO's in my Graduating class (2002) who entered allopathic EM residencies. Only one took the USMLE. 2 were chiefs. The programs were Indiana, University of Mississippi, Wisconson, Saginaw, Case Western, York, and one of the NYC programs but I don't remember where. There were more DO in allopathic EM residencies in my class than in DO EM residencies. At my program it is a non-issue, as it is at most programs. There are still a few programs where the PD for some reason or other can't use the COMLEX or choose not to. The question to ask would be do the programs that only accept USMLE have any DO's in their programs in the first place or is there an underlying prejudice there that makes it almost impossible for you to match there in the first place?

 

[kungfufishing]

Im in residency with rh (our program is rh positive) and I too am a DO. Taking the usmle in addition to the comlex might help you acquire a few more interview offers. Having said this, if you do very well on the comlex I would expect it to be sufficient evidence of your knowledge base/ability to take a standardized test. You dont become a PD through stupidity or the inability to analyze sets of information, so I expect "interpreting" the comlex and even comparing it to the usmle is probably doable.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Im in residency with rh (our program is rh positive) and I too am a DO. Taking the usmle in addition to the comlex might help you acquire a few more interview offers. Having said this, if you do very well on the comlex I would expect it to be sufficient evidence of your knowledge base/ability to take a standardized test. You dont become a PD through stupidity or the inability to analyze sets of information, so I expect "interpreting" the comlex and even comparing it to the usmle is probably doable.

I would argue that you can't compare the COMLEX with anything because their results make no mathematical sense. Plus, I think its possible that they intentionally scale the 2 digit scores so that allopathic PD's who are not versed in stats see them as "low" even when you have done well. When you guys took COMLEX it was still a 2 digit percentile. Now they have converted to a 2 digit score..not percentile. Here is an example...and hope it makes you understand why this test is "out there".

My buddy scored a 736 on COMLEX I, literally putting him in the top 15 people in the entire country. Peruse the forums here, and you will see only a handful of people have ever scored higher than this.......2 I know of in the 750's. So with some couple of thousand people taking it, wouldn't you think that the an appropriate 2 digit score would be a 99? No though, his score was a 91. So he is stuck with a 736/91, although he is undoubtedly in the 99th percentile. And I can tell you personally that on all my interviews, only one PD was actually smart enough to understand that my 715/90 on step I was much better than my 232/94 USMLE Step I......BKN!! (but he has a degree in statistics). One PD even commented how I did better on the USMLE than "my own" COMLEX. I even called the statistician at NBOME and he simply told me that the PD's should be smart enough to follow the standard deviation out several places to know that the score was extremely good. But if you are not BKN you probably are not going to all that trouble. Anyone who is in the 99th percentile on the USMLE will definitely have a score of 99. So why does the USMLE have to break ranks? My guess is its a nice way to "keep the man down" because if not careful a PD can interpret the results wrong. NMOME prefers that we apply to AOA residencies...we all know that.

Bottom line.....take the USMLE...there is no way it will do anything but help you. You just do not know which programs it will hurt you to not have taken it. And my guess is that if a program had to choose between 2 DO's, they would give an extra point in their calculations for the person who took the USMLE even if they only did average. If nothing else it shows motivation and a desire to go the extra mile.....and spend an extra 400 bucks!!!

 

[Beefcake]

I would argue that you can't compare the COMLEX with anything because their results make no mathematical sense. Plus, I think its possible that they intentionally scale the 2 digit scores so that allopathic PD's who are not versed in stats see them as "low" even when you have done well. When you guys took COMLEX it was still a 2 digit percentile. Now they have converted to a 2 digit score..not percentile. Here is an example...and hope it makes you understand why this test is "out there".

My buddy scored a 736 on COMLEX I, literally putting him in the top 15 people in the entire country. Peruse the forums here, and you will see only a handful of people have ever scored higher than this.......2 I know of in the 750's. So with some couple of thousand people taking it, wouldn't you think that the an appropriate 2 digit score would be a 99? No though, his score was a 91. So he is stuck with a 736/91, although he is undoubtedly in the 99th percentile. And I can tell you personally that on all my interviews, only one PD was actually smart enough to understand that my 715/90 on step I was much better than my 232/94 USMLE Step I......BKN!! (but he has a degree in statistics). One PD even commented how I did better on the USMLE than "my own" COMLEX. I even called the statistician at NBOME and he simply told me that the PD's should be smart enough to follow the standard deviation out several places to know that the score was extremely good. But if you are not BKN you probably are not going to all that trouble. Anyone who is in the 99th percentile on the USMLE will definitely have a score of 99. So why does the USMLE have to break ranks? My guess is its a nice way to "keep the man down" because if not careful a PD can interpret the results wrong. NMOME prefers that we apply to AOA residencies...we all know that.

Bottom line.....take the USMLE...there is no way it will do anything but help you. You just do not know which programs it will hurt you to not have taken it. And my guess is that if a program had to choose between 2 DO's, they would give an extra point in their calculations for the person who took the USMLE even if they only did average. If nothing else it shows motivation and a desire to go the extra mile.....and spend an extra 400 bucks!!!

For semantics sake, this is from the NBME website-
"The 2-digit score is not a percentile.The 2-digit score is derived from the 3-digit score. It is used in score reporting to meet requirements of some medical licensing authorities that the passing score be reported as 75. The 2-digit score is derived in such a way that a score of 75 always corresponds to the minimum passing score."

-But I get your point that that's the way many PDs/med students/moms and dads/pets see it rather than approaching it from a statistical analysis point of view, as evidenced by your experience on the interview trail.

 

[rh]

Ah conspiracy theories. My favorite.

Look I can only speak for the program I am in and at the programs I interviewed at. It does not make a difference. At the program I am currently in I can speak with some athoratative knowledgeas I have been involved the last 2 years in interviews and in creating our ROL. IF you are a DO who only took the COMLEX that is good enough. If you took both it is a so what question and it looks bad if you do poorly on it. If you guys think that board scores are the be all end all in a group of people making the decision on who they will rank you are sadly mistaken. This is a job, you are no longer in school. We are looking for people we can work with. People who will work hard. People who the nurses will get along with. People who will not piss off consultants and the patients they see. You can have the best board scores in the world on either the COMLEX or USMLE and if you are a jerk we will rank the person with a lower score above you. Grades and board score are only a small part of the equation. Granted if there are two applicants who are equal in all other ways board scores come into play. Still at least at our program wether or not you have take the USMLE does not factor in.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Ah conspiracy theories. My favorite.

Look I can only speak for the program I am in and at the programs I interviewed at. It does not make a difference. At the program I am currently in I can speak with some athoratative knowledgeas I have been involved the last 2 years in interviews and in creating our ROL. IF you are a DO who only took the COMLEX that is good enough. If you took both it is a so what question and it looks bad if you do poorly on it. If you guys think that board scores are the be all end all in a group of people making the decision on who they will rank you are sadly mistaken. This is a job, you are no longer in school. We are looking for people we can work with. People who will work hard. People who the nurses will get along with. People who will not piss off consultants and the patients they see. You can have the best board scores in the world on either the COMLEX or USMLE and if you are a jerk we will rank the person with a lower score above you. Grades and board score are only a small part of the equation. Granted if there are two applicants who are equal in all other ways board scores come into play. Still at least at our program wether or not you have take the USMLE does not factor in.

I very much appreciate your experience and comments. I just think it is a little shortsighted to recommend doing anything but taking both exams. Truth is, about 50% of people taking the exams (Step I at least) at this stage don't even know what field they are going to go into. As a DO, you are potentially locking yourself out without a key if you don't take this exam. Its common for someone interested in EM to decide the middle of 3rd year that they want to do something even more competitive than EM. Then they are completely screwed. 99% chance you are not going to get an interview as a DO at an allopathic derm, ortho, ophtho residency. There are many others as well. Its great that you guys don't require USMLE...but who can really speak for all the programs? No one unfortunately. Take Christ for instance...an incredible program by most anyone's account. They like for their residents to have at least taken the USMLE and COMLEX. I don't think it is an unreasonable thing to do. I just don't want future DO's headed into EM to get the impression that they are completely okay without the USMLE. You are very correct...an exam is just an exam, but we all know that you have to be invited to go to the dance. But as you mentioned, when you get there, you have to know how to dance!!

 

[rh]

There you have it folks you have both sides of the story. I finish my residency in 4 months, I have been chief resident in my program. I have a job in a very competitive market that is historically not DO friendly, and have never once had my training as a DO questioned or asked what why I did not take the USMLE. If you don't take the USMLE you will most likely match into an MD residency. If you do take the USMLE you will most likely match into an MD residency. I personally think it is a waist of time and money to take another test. And just like you are getting from corpsmanUP all you are getting is two peoples opinion. So ultimately just make the decision for yourself. As I said before there was one out of 7 in my class who took the USMLE and matched into EM spots, and I did not mention this before but we matched 7/7. I personally disagree with the AOA conspiracy theory that they are trying to keep you in their residencies. Mainly becasue there aren't enough to train us all. It also makes no sence at all, they have nothing to gain by it. Finally by taking the USMLE we are to some extent sucumbing to the DO inferiority complex that we have somthing to prove. With that I am done. CorpsmanUP you can have the last word.

 

[corpsmanUP]

There you have it folks you have both sides of the story. I finish my residency in 4 months, I have been chief resident in my program. I have a job in a very competitive market that is historically not DO friendly, and have never once had my training as a DO questioned or asked what why I did not take the USMLE. If you don't take the USMLE you will most likely match into an MD residency. If you do take the USMLE you will most likely match into an MD residency. I personally think it is a waist of time and money to take another test. And just like you are getting from corpsmanUP all you are getting is two peoples opinion. So ultimately just make the decision for yourself. As I said before there was one out of 7 in my class who took the USMLE and matched into EM spots, and I did not mention this before but we matched 7/7. I personally disagree with the AOA conspiracy theory that they are trying to keep you in their residencies. Mainly becasue there aren't enough to train us all. It also makes no sence at all, they have nothing to gain by it. Finally by taking the USMLE we are to some extent sucumbing to the DO inferiority complex that we have somthing to prove. With that I am done. CorpsmanUP you can have the last word.

I think we both failed to mention that it is very dependent on the part of the country you live in. Michigan and some Ohio programs might get you in with no problem, but should you find yourself in big Texas where there are 4 programs, it might help to have the USMLE. I do tend to be on the OCD side, trying to have several aces in my back pocket for when I might need them. And since I only know for sure that 1 interview came from a USMLE score I had made, I cannot comment on the other. I think though I might open up this as a new thread soon to get the feel of experienced DO's like rH who are incredibly in tune with the market forces for their area. It may turn out to be a regional thing. But again I would say that there are probably 50% of applicants who are not sure where they want to end up, it really can't hurt to take the exams just for when you get that interview call from an EM program in Cali, NM, UTSW, Indy, Mayo, Pitt, LSU, where rhey routinely thank those who take USMLE for giving them some sense of clarity in the comparison. I just think it tends to help, especially if you do much better on your USMLE than COMLEX. PD's love this conversation for whatever odd reasons.

 

[corpsmanUP]

duplicate

 

[corpsmanUP]

think my enter key is stuck

 

[corpsmanUP]

sorry

 

[corpsmanUP]

duplicate

 

[FlemishGiant]

If you guys think that board scores are the be all end all in a group of people making the decision on who they will rank you are sadly mistaken... Still at least at our program wether or not you have take the USMLE does not factor in.

Gotta disagree. I think that its foolish not to take it. Sure you need good letters/grades/etc. But, as c-man said, a USMLE score will help open some doors that would be otherwise closed to you so you can show the program that you are indeed a good employee/scutmonkey/rectalizer. It really can't hurt you (just don't report ur score if it is bad) and will do more good than harm. What is a couple of extra hours of a test and a few hundred bucks when it can help you land your top residency pick? I really don't see the downside to taking it.

FG

 

[corpsmanUP]

Gotta disagree. I think that its foolish not to take it. Sure you need good letters/grades/etc. But, as c-man said, a USMLE score will help open some doors that would be otherwise closed to you so you can show the program that you are indeed a good employee/scutmonkey/rectalizer. It really can't hurt you (just don't report ur score if it is bad) and will do more good than harm. What is a couple of extra hours of a test and a few hundred bucks when it can help you land your top residency pick? I really don't see the downside to taking it.

FG

I have to tell you that I do not believe I would have recieved interviews at Christ, Indianapolis, Mayo, UPitt, UTSW, Emory, or UMaryland without taking the USMLE. That may just be my observation, but I believe it is probably true, and justifiably correct. If I were a PD at an allopathic EM program I do not believe I would offer an interview to someone who had not taken the USMLE. The USMLE is simply an incredibly established exam with years of statistical oversight, while the COMLEX is so poorly written and governed that it renders it less effective a screening tool. We have faculty at our school that are on the NBME "question writing" committee or whatever you call it, and even they tell us that the USMLE is way more reliable. And this comes from DO's who have spent their entire lives in DO institutions. They just say the COMLEX does not have a good system of checks and balances to make sure the material being tested is appropriate. I found it incredibly random....with incorrect terminology, alternative terminology that is outdated, terrible grammar at times, and stems that give virtually no information to answer the question. I finished Level II of COMLEX in under 4 hours. It took me way longer for USMLE Step II because the stems were very much trying to paint a picture of the entire clinical scenario. It was more of a thinking exam than the COMLEX. COMLEX still uses matching for crying out loud! And worse than that, they use "linked" questions where the first question in a group of 3 dictates whether you will get the next 2. I think that lowers the score of a significant number of people, and that isn't right. Literally half of the exam is "linked" questions and matching. The good news is that the exam is going to improve now that they have moved to PC based exams. I already saw a huge improvement (though not near enough) between Level 1 and Level II of COMLEX.

Not that it makes any real difference though, I believe COMLEX PE is likely to be a better exam that USMLE CS. This is because everyone takes it at the same place, and they have it down to a science there. Plus, it is no cake walk like a lot of people are saying about the CS. I found it rather challenging and actually rather appropriate. I will probably get grilled for saying so, but I think I might actually be starting to get on the bandwagon in favor of this exam. It forces you to really nail down and streamline your interview skills and your rapid "full H&P". And perhaps it will weed out a few more total dingbats which the COMLEX I and II don't do real well. Anything to keep those guys/gals from getting out and embarrasing us and endangering the public might be worth it. I feel flames coming from miles away

 

[OSUdoc08]

I have to tell you that I do not believe I would have recieved interviews at Christ, Indianapolis, Mayo, UPitt, UTSW, Emory, or UMaryland without taking the USMLE. That may just be my observation, but I believe it is probably true, and justifiably correct. If I were a PD at an allopathic EM program I do not believe I would offer an interview to someone who had not taken the USMLE. The USMLE is simply an incredibly established exam with years of statistical oversight, while the COMLEX is so poorly written and governed that it renders it less effective a screening tool. We have faculty at our school that are on the NBME "question writing" committee or whatever you call it, and even they tell us that the USMLE is way more reliable. And this comes from DO's who have spent their entire lives in DO institutions. They just say the COMLEX does not have a good system of checks and balances to make sure the material being tested is appropriate. I found it incredibly random....with incorrect terminology, alternative terminology that is outdated, terrible grammar at times, and stems that give virtually no information to answer the question. I finished Level II of COMLEX in under 4 hours. It took me way longer for USMLE Step II because the stems were very much trying to paint a picture of the entire clinical scenario. It was more of a thinking exam than the COMLEX. COMLEX still uses matching for crying out loud! And worse than that, they use "linked" questions where the first question in a group of 3 dictates whether you will get the next 2. I think that lowers the score of a significant number of people, and that isn't right. Literally half of the exam is "linked" questions and matching. The good news is that the exam is going to improve now that they have moved to PC based exams. I already saw a huge improvement (though not near enough) between Level 1 and Level II of COMLEX.

Not that it makes any real difference though, I believe COMLEX PE is likely to be a better exam that USMLE CS. This is because everyone takes it at the same place, and they have it down to a science there. Plus, it is no cake walk like a lot of people are saying about the CS. I found it rather challenging and actually rather appropriate. I will probably get grilled for saying so, but I think I might actually be starting to get on the bandwagon in favor of this exam. It forces you to really nail down and streamline your interview skills and your rapid "full H&P". And perhaps it will weed out a few more total dingbats which the COMLEX I and II don't do real well. Anything to keep those guys/gals from getting out and embarrasing us and endangering the public might be worth it. I feel flames coming from miles away

I can confirm this one.

I spoke with the PD of UTSW recently, and he said they PREFER USMLE for DO's.

 

[rh]

One of my good friends is interviewing this year after finishing his military commitment. No USMLE and he has had interviews at Indy, U Maryland, and Mayo. One of my classmates is at Indy no USMLE.

Very few programs require it, and to me if they do require it there is an inherent perjudice against DO's.

USMLE may be a better test but you don't need it to get an allopathic ED residency that is the bottom line.

If anyone out there is truly concerned about a particular program call and ask. If there are no DO's in the program ask why. If there are DO's in the program ask them if they took the USMLE and if it is important or not at their particular program.

 

[Quimby2]

One of my good friends is interviewing this year after finishing his military commitment. No USMLE and he has had interviews at Indy, U Maryland, and Mayo. One of my classmates is at Indy no USMLE.

Very few programs require it, and to me if they do require it there is an inherent perjudice against DO's.

USMLE may be a better test but you don't need it to get an allopathic ED residency that is the bottom line.

If anyone out there is truly concerned about a particular program call and ask. If there are no DO's in the program ask why. If there are DO's in the program ask them if they took the USMLE and if it is important or not at their particular program.

Please becareful of considering a USMLE requirement indicative of a DO prejudice --it is just easier to compare applicants if they have all taken the USMLE. Check out emramatch.org to see which programs have taken DO's in the past 5 years.

 

[corpsmanUP]

One of my good friends is interviewing this year after finishing his military commitment. No USMLE and he has had interviews at Indy, U Maryland, and Mayo. One of my classmates is at Indy no USMLE.

Very few programs require it, and to me if they do require it there is an inherent perjudice against DO's.

USMLE may be a better test but you don't need it to get an allopathic ED residency that is the bottom line.

If anyone out there is truly concerned about a particular program call and ask. If there are no DO's in the program ask why. If there are DO's in the program ask them if they took the USMLE and if it is important or not at their particular program.

Why are you so against taking the USMLE? Is it because you didn't take it? And lets be serious, a GMO coming out of the Navy is likely to get an interview at most any program, simply because they have a world of experience that most will never have. Lets compare apples with apples, not green interns with experienced physicians. I think to call every program to ask if they have DO's, then ask them why they don't, and email all the DO's in those programs that do have DO's is more trouble than just taking the exam. I know who your buddy is personally with the info you gave me, and I can tell you if I were he I would be a bit worried. He is competing against a lot of people who took both exams, and I can tell you simply from the comments that I got from PD's, that they considered it a great thing to use to compare me across the board to MD's and other DO's. You have to remember that it is not just about proving you are capable by doing well on the COMLEX, but also about competing with our fellow DO's. Like it or not, some programs are likely to limit the number of DO's they take for whatever reason. So ultimately I think DO's often compete with DO's for spots. And when this happens, my guess is that the PD may tend to favor the applicant with both USMLE and COMLEX if the USMLE is a good score.

All I can tell you is what PD's said to me all across the country this year. I'll say it again. I had many a PD tell me that because I had taken the USMLE and done okay that I was much easier to compare across the board. I won't try to read into that, but I think it means what it means.

Can you get into a great EM residency without the USMLE? Undoubtedly..you have already proved this, and congrats to you for such success. But could you get locked out from an institution because you didn't take the USMLE? The answer is that it is possible. Can you predict which programs will look negatively at you for not taking it...? probably not. So I guess the last question is the next most obvious one....Are you willing to risk it as a DO applicant? I personally am very glad that I took the USMLE and I will always say so. Your saying that it is not necessary is the equivilant to saying you shouldn't wear a condom because the liklihood of contracting HIV through heterosexual contact is something like 1 in 1,000 even with a known infected female. Some things are just not worth risking, and just because you came through unscathed doesn't mean everyone will. And like I said, the DO who does have the USMLE score could negatively impact the chances of the DO applicant who does not have the USMLE.

 

[corpsmanUP]

One more thing. The issue with the AOA wanting to keep DO's in DO programs is absolutely fact. True, there are not near enough residency spots in DO programs to accomodate the number of graduates of DO programs currently. But that statistic is not the statistic of interest. The real statistic is the number of unfilled spots in DO programs around the country in almost every specialty. At my school, 80% of the graduates enter the ACGME match and 20% go AOA. Primary care DO spots have dismal fill rates sometimes near 30% or less. Don't be fooled into believing that DO specialty positions are anywhere near as competitive as ACGME programs. These PD's know that they are all losing DO's to the other side every year and thus the AOA is extremely worried about keeping DO's in DO programs. Hence the reason they are so against a joint AOA/ACGME match. They believe that if there was a joint match that their programs would lose even more people to the other side because they would no longer have to decide whether to enter the "irreversible" AOA match that goes down in February. The real statistic is that over half of all DO graduates nationwide are entering the ACGME match. There are certainly enough DO residency spots to accomodate half the graduates, with hundreds remaining open.

 

[rh]

Yes I hang my head in shame every day that there is one standerized test out there that I did not take. It will forever eat me up inside. My counselor says that someday I can move past this but really I don't know if I can.

My posts are simply a contrary point of view. There are people out there who look at these posts and, as stupid as it may sound, make decisions based on what is posted here. To a M1 or M2 interested in EM, your posts make it sound like you must take the USMLE to succeed. That is absolutely false and I want to make people understand that the majority of DO's in MD EM residencies did not take the USMLE.

I am not against taking the USMLE if that is what you think you have to do to be competitive. More power to you if you can tap into a residency that has never taken a DO and open it up for future DO's. But you do not have to have to take the USMLE to be competitve.

You and I are speaking gospel from very limited experience. There are 136 EM residencies in the country. I would imagine that between the two of us we interviewed at less that 1/4 of all of those residencies. So making generalizations about all EM residencies from our combined interview trail is crazy. The nice thing is over the last few years I have met many DO's in EM residencies and the field is wide open for DO's. If you choose to spend the extra time and money taking the USMLE more power to you. If you choose not to you will do fine also. Although you may spend many dollars in therapy afterward.

For anyone out there who wants to conduct some research to buff their CV it would be any easy study to send a questionaire to the 136 programs asking who has DO's in their program and wh
ether or not they took the USMLE. Should be fairly easy info to get and the info would be anonymous so they would probably be willing to give it. You could probably publish in some osteopathic journal, and it would solve this contention.

I don't know if you do know my friend or not as he was not Navy. But it is extreemly hard for guys with previous training to get interview at many programs due to funding issue. The are many programs that will not interview you if you have had previous training. But none the less I am confident he will match.

Let me share the opinions of some other DO's who are have recently graduated or are also close to graduating. This is from the EMRA web site from a paper on DO's in allopathic residencies. This is from quinn, doc wagner and Jason Johnson

"#7
As a DO, do I need to take the USMLE?
We feel that if a DO student does “well” on the mandatory COMLEX, it is not necessary to take the USMLE unless a certain program that the applicant is intent on applying does not accept the COMLEX. If the DO student takes the USMLE and does poorly, however, it will be detrimental to the application. However, if an applicant has a poor COMLEX score, doing well on the USMLE can improve the application significantly. The DO applicant should contact each individual program to see if the program requires a USMLE score. Both Drs. Holzheimer and Johnson did not take the USMLE. A DO should perform similar to an MD on their boards, there is no innate reason to think otherwise. DOs performing well on the USMLE are easier to compare to Allopathic students and can make the selection process for programs much easier."

So to one extent or another the points that we have both made are validated.

There are several things that you can do to find out if a program has DO's. You would be an idiot to call them all, and I don't think I ever suggested this. First if there is a program you are interested in look on thier web site and see if they list their residents on the site. Some have the emails of their residents listed and you can simply email them. Most residents I know are happy to respond to those asking questions. 2nd you can call the program and ask to get in touch with a DO resident in their program. Most programs will do this for you. You can also email the PD of a program you have an interest in and ask them what they require. There is a match guide on the EMRA web site that also has good info on it as to wether or not programs takes DO's. Although I could not access it toady.

Do your research, ask for the opinions of more than two DO's posting on a website who think they are experts, and make your own decisions.

My fingers are tired and I need to save a little bit of energy to dial my therapist. Whew.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yes I hang my head in shame every day that there is one standerized test out there that I did not take. It will forever eat me up inside. My counselor says that someday I can move past this but really I don't know if I can.

My posts are simply a contrary point of view. There are people out there who look at these posts and, as stupid as it may sound, make decisions based on what is posted here. To a M1 or M2 interested in EM, your posts make it sound like you must take the USMLE to succeed. That is absolutely false and I want to make people understand that the majority of DO's in MD EM residencies did not take the USMLE.

I am not against taking the USMLE if that is what you think you have to do to be competitive. More power to you if you can tap into a residency that has never taken a DO and open it up for future DO's. But you do not have to have to take the USMLE to be competitve.

You and I are speaking gospel from very limited experience. There are 136 EM residencies in the country. I would imagine that between the two of us we interviewed at less that 1/4 of all of those residencies. So making generalizations about all EM residencies from our combined interview trail is crazy. The nice thing is over the last few years I have met many DO's in EM residencies and the field is wide open for DO's. If you choose to spend the extra time and money taking the USMLE more power to you. If you choose not to you will do fine also. Although you may spend many dollars in therapy afterward.

For anyone out there who wants to conduct some research to buff their CV it would be any easy study to send a questionaire to the 136 programs asking who has DO's in their program and wh
ether or not they took the USMLE. Should be fairly easy info to get and the info would be anonymous so they would probably be willing to give it. You could probably publish in some osteopathic journal, and it would solve this contention.

I don't know if you do know my friend or not as he was not Navy. But it is extreemly hard for guys with previous training to get interview at many programs due to funding issue. The are many programs that will not interview you if you have had previous training. But none the less I am confident he will match.

Let me share the opinions of some other DO's who are have recently graduated or are also close to graduating. This is from the EMRA web site from a paper on DO's in allopathic residencies. This is from quinn, doc wagner and Jason Johnson

"#7
As a DO, do I need to take the USMLE?
We feel that if a DO student does “well” on the mandatory COMLEX, it is not necessary to take the USMLE unless a certain program that the applicant is intent on applying does not accept the COMLEX. If the DO student takes the USMLE and does poorly, however, it will be detrimental to the application. However, if an applicant has a poor COMLEX score, doing well on the USMLE can improve the application significantly. The DO applicant should contact each individual program to see if the program requires a USMLE score. Both Drs. Holzheimer and Johnson did not take the USMLE. A DO should perform similar to an MD on their boards, there is no innate reason to think otherwise. DOs performing well on the USMLE are easier to compare to Allopathic students and can make the selection process for programs much easier."

So to one extent or another the points that we have both made are validated.

There are several things that you can do to find out if a program has DO's. You would be an idiot to call them all, and I don't think I ever suggested this. First if there is a program you are interested in look on thier web site and see if they list their residents on the site. Some have the emails of their residents listed and you can simply email them. Most residents I know are happy to respond to those asking questions. 2nd you can call the program and ask to get in touch with a DO resident in their program. Most programs will do this for you. You can also email the PD of a program you have an interest in and ask them what they require. There is a match guide on the EMRA web site that also has good info on it as to wether or not programs takes DO's. Although I could not access it toady.

Do your research, ask for the opinions of more than two DO's posting on a website who think they are experts, and make your own decisions.

My fingers are tired and I need to save a little bit of energy to dial my therapist. Whew.

It really depends on where you want to go. My top choice accepts DO's AND does not accept the COMLEX.

You seem to turn this into an "argument" about an "opinion." However, it is a fact that you need to take the USMLE to get into certain residencies (which accept DO's.)

You will be limited in the number of programs that interview you if you do not take it. If you are okay with that, then fine.

 

[corpsmanUP]

rH, I think your last post is a tribute to how people on our forum can debate without dropping f-bombs and slandering each other. I seriously respect your viewpoint and admit that you are way more experienced in this than I am. I am pulling for your buddy by the way, as I am all GMO's on the trail this year. I don't think there is any better applicant than a GMO.

 

[rh]

I am going to ask my PD if he will pose this question on the CORD listserve, and see what the PD's out there have to say on the subject. If he will do it for me I will fill you all in on the results.

 

[bobg504]

OSUdoc08, not to call you out or anything but I see that we are both 2 YEARS. I don't think we have room to debate on what to do seeing that neither of us has finished 2nd year nor have we passed COMLEX or USMLE nor do we have any experience as it relates to interviewing at programs. Granted I am going to take the USMLE (I emailed program directors at programs I may be interested in) I am open to hearing both sides of this debate. Just a thought.

 

[OSUdoc08]

OSUdoc08, not to call you out or anything but I see that we are both 2 YEARS. I don't think we have room to debate on what to do seeing that neither of us has finished 2nd year nor have we passed COMLEX or USMLE nor do we have any experience as it relates to interviewing at programs. Granted I am going to take the USMLE (I emailed program directors at programs I may be interested in) I am open to hearing both sides of this debate. Just a thought.

Just because I don't have personal experience doesn't mean I haven't done the research.

 

[Dr.MISHKA D.O.]

I find your "conversation" with the UTSW PD interesting as I got an interview invite from said PD before I released my USMLE II, therefore the PD had no idea I had even taken a Usmle step before offering me my interview. As well, I never took Step I usmle and it was never an issue. I guess the e-mails I am getting from utsw every other day mean they aren't interested in someone who hasn't taken all Usmle steps. No replacement for experience my newbie classmate, even with good research skills.

Best Wishes,

The Mish

 

[corpsmanUP]

I find your "converstation" with the UTSW PD interesting as I got an interview invite from said PD before I released my USMLE II, therefore the PD had no idea I had even taken a Usmle step before offering me my interview. As well, I never took Step I usmle and it was never an issue. I guess the e-mails I am getting from utsw every other day mean they aren't interested in someone who hasn't taken all Usmle steps. No replacement for experience my newbie classmate, even with good research skills.

Best Wishes,

The Mish

Hey Mish,

Its true that UTSW has become very DO friendly, but lets not lead DO's into believing that you can get interviewed there without stellar stats. And stellar stats you must have to have received the interviews you received this year. But I think it would be bad advice to advise any DO student not to take the USMLE. The problem is that most DO's take the USMLE the same week they take their COMLEX. At least if they don't then they will have to completely re-study, which to me would be a fate worse than torsion of my testicular appendage (assuming I still have one in my 30's ) I think the main thing is that you cannot predict how well your COMLEX will be. Yours was undoubtedly excellent or you would not have received even a knod from Wainscott. You are an exception...one upon which a rule should not be built around.

I also recall you "wishing" you would have been interviewed at Christ. After interviewing myself there and absolutely loving the place, I understand why someone without a USMLE (DO) would be less desirable. They literally flaunt the scores of their residents because a) they can, and b) they deserve to, and c) its a way to advertise and recruit a select intelligent sub-population of applicants that they can screen in person for people skills. Because if you can find a person with great "paper" credentials, and people skills, social skills, partying skills....you have found the average Christ resident. Had you taken the USMLE, my guess is you would have had a red carpet treatment from Harwood. He's an incredible guy!!

 

[OSUdoc08]

I find your "converstation" with the UTSW PD interesting as I got an interview invite from said PD before I released my USMLE II, therefore the PD had no idea I had even taken a Usmle step before offering me my interview. As well, I never took Step I usmle and it was never an issue. I guess the e-mails I am getting from utsw every other day mean they aren't interested in someone who hasn't taken all Usmle steps. No replacement for experience my newbie classmate, even with good research skills.

Best Wishes,

The Mish

Congrats on getting an interview at UTSW. The rest of your application must have been stellar.

I'd like all the help I can get. The UTSW PD suggested that the USMLE will improve my application compared to a COMLEX only application.

 

[DrMom]

I spoke with the PD of UTSW recently, and he said they require USMLE for DO's.

The UTSW PD suggested that the USMLE will improve my application compared to a COMLEX only application.

These are two very different statements. From what I know of classmates who interviewed at UTSW without any USMLE, the second statement must be the correct one at this time. Who knows what they'll require in coming years.


It certainly seems quite logical for DO students to make it easier for PDs to compare our apps to MD students'. Since we can take the USMLE step 2 without step 1, that seems like it is the most reasonable & simple route for most of us to do this. (since there's purportedly no prep differences for COMLEX & USMLE step 2--minus OMM-- whereas there are some more notable prep differences for step 1) Of course, if you're going to do this you run the risk of some programs who absolutely require a USMLE step 1. You'd also want to take step 2 pretty early so that you'd have a score to the MD programs ASAP in the application process.

 

[OSUdoc08]

These are two very different statements. From what I know of classmates who interviewed at UTSW without any USMLE, the second statement must be the correct one at this time. Who knows what they'll require in coming years.


It certainly seems quite logical for DO students to make it easier for PDs to compare our apps to MD students'. Since we can take the USMLE step 2 without step 1, that seems like it is the most reasonable & simple route for most of us to do this. (since there's purportedly no prep differences for COMLEX & USMLE step 2--minus OMM-- whereas there are some more notable prep differences for step 1) Of course, if you're going to do this you run the risk of some programs who absolutely require a USMLE step 1. You'd also want to take step 2 pretty early so that you'd have a score to the MD programs ASAP in the application process.

I don't really recall whether he said that it is required or it is helpful, but it shouldn't really matter. If a program director tells me to do something to improve my application, I sure as hell am going to do it.

 

[OSUdoc08]

These are two very different statements. From what I know of classmates who interviewed at UTSW without any USMLE, the second statement must be the correct one at this time. Who knows what they'll require in coming years.


It certainly seems quite logical for DO students to make it easier for PDs to compare our apps to MD students'. Since we can take the USMLE step 2 without step 1, that seems like it is the most reasonable & simple route for most of us to do this. (since there's purportedly no prep differences for COMLEX & USMLE step 2--minus OMM-- whereas there are some more notable prep differences for step 1) Of course, if you're going to do this you run the risk of some programs who absolutely require a USMLE step 1. You'd also want to take step 2 pretty early so that you'd have a score to the MD programs ASAP in the application process.

I don't really recall whether he said that it is required or it is helpful, but it shouldn't really matter. If a program director tells me to do something to improve my application, I sure as hell am going to do it.

 

[Dr.MISHKA D.O.]

I agree with Corpsmanup completely, in fact in the past (see some of my prior posts) I have advocated to DO's the taking of the USMLE. UTSW was a special circumstance I think because I recieved an interview before the last day of Oct. and I did not release my USMLE step II until the last day of Oct, and did not take USMLE I, thus they had no idea I even took the USMLE.
My point was not that people should not take the USMLE, quite the contrary, however I would suggest only taking step two (and take it early), but that is just my preference (I suck at biochem, stats, and genetics). Rather, my point was that statements such as OSUdoc08's that some programs will not interview you without it is misleading. I had quite the opposite experience this interview season, with even Louisiana programs (Which are well known to be DO resistant) going the extra mile to understand my Comlex score ("Three standard deviations above the mean - that's excellent!)
In regard to Christ they in fact had my USMLE scores before waitlisting me, and I was on the waitlist for quite a long time until finally getting rejected. I think that it had more to do with my lack of credentials a 99/250 Step II is not the same as your 99/262 Corps.
As well, I only had two "honors" standard EM letters - neither from big names (one person I rotated with got a letter from freakin Tintinalli - come on!), and my D.O. IM chief of medicine letter sucked (Eric is always on time and well dressed, WTF!) I would call someone like Corps a A+ and myself more like an A-/B+ resident applicant, and Christ doesn't take a B+ resident, final word on that. It had nothing to do with USMLE vs. Comlex.
I have no complaints, I turned down a lot of interviews and got 75% of the ones I really wanted. Maybe I should have applied to more places, or gone on more interviews, but the fact is I will be happy to go to any place on my rank list, and will get a great education. Nuff said.

Best Wishes

The Mish

 

[corpsmanUP]

Eloquently stated Mish! I think you are an A+ from what I have read about you! You got some great interviews that I did not get. Its rather random as we all know, except of course for WVU. I am not going there again...sorry.

See you guys on the rank list thread tonight around 9:01.

 

[too-sweet-phat-cool 4-life]

I just had a 3rd year call me today and ask for advice on what she should do to get a good residency. She did not take USMLE Step I and I told her she should take step II. I agree with OSUdoc in that if it makes you a more competative applicant I think you should take it. When I interviewed at Emory, I had one interviewer say he was glad I took the USMLE because he was not sure how to read the COMLEX. I also talked with the program director at UTSW and he said he thought it would help if I take USMLE step II. There is no clear cut answer, but if you want to have the best chance to match, then just take the test!!