DOs in Pathology

[Zerosixjt]

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I am considering admission to an Osteopathic Medical School. I am really interested in Pathology and Infectious disease. Are there any DO pathologists out there? Was it difficult to enter the field? Any advice would be welcome.

 

[PathOne]

Not a DO myself, and generally you don't see a lot on Pathology. However, they do exist, even in über-competitive subspecialities like Dermpath.

My feeling is that Path is probably one of the specialities that has a pretty strong bias towards M.D.'s, but it's doable to go into Path as a DO.

 

[aviva]

Not a DO myself, and generally you don't see a lot on Pathology. However, they do exist, even in über-competitive subspecialities like Dermpath.

My feeling is that Path is probably one of the specialities that has a pretty strong bias towards M.D.'s, but it's doable to go into Path as a DO.

I am a DO, and as a DO, we can sign offers outside of the match. I was offered multiple contracts outside of the match, including some of the most competitive programs. I did take the USMLE and I did very well in addition to being published and having good grades, and all that other nonsense. I never felt that I was discriminated against for being a DO except for at Mt. Sinai. However, after saying all that, I wouldn't recommend going to a DO school if you can get into an allopathic school. I know some people will want to lynch me for saying that, but I truly feel that the education is inferior in multiple areas.

 

[Zerosixjt]

I am a DO, and as a DO, we can sign offers outside of the match. I was offered multiple contracts outside of the match, including some of the most competitive programs. I did take the USMLE and I did very well in addition to being published and having good grades, and all that other nonsense. I never felt that I was discriminated against for being a DO except for at Mt. Sinai. However, after saying all that, I wouldn't recommend going to a DO school if you can get into an allopathic school. I know some people will want to lynch me for saying that, but I truly feel that the education is inferior in multiple areas.

I don't want to get you lynched, but I am truly curious. Was it the specific school, the curriculum, or the philosophy that you felt was inferior? Were you able to overcome this during your rotations/residency? Were you looked down upon by fellow DOs for taking the USMLE?

Without going into my whole story, I can get into allopathic schools, but it would mean a delay of 1-2 years before starting because of application time and personal considerations. Are the deficiencies something that can be overcome with hard work, or is it a true disadvantage?

 

[aviva]

I don't want to get you lynched, but I am truly curious. Was it the specific school, the curriculum, or the philosophy that you felt was inferior? Were you able to overcome this during your rotations/residency? Were you looked down upon by fellow DOs for taking the USMLE?

Without going into my whole story, I can get into allopathic schools, but it would mean a delay of 1-2 years before starting because of application time and personal considerations. Are the deficiencies something that can be overcome with hard work, or is it a true disadvantage?

In terms of timing, that is up to you. The education is far inferior especially with regards to physiology, biochemistry, molecular biology, pathology, microbiology, pharmacology, and systems. The philosophy no longer really plays a role in the educational process. You will spend hours in OMM (Osteopathic Medical Manipulation) courses and labs. There is no research or at least quality research to support any of their techniques. You are urged to "believe" as if it is was a religion. Furthermore, OMM will not help you if you are planning a career in path. You are not looked down on for taking the USMLEs. The schools do not encourage this, but you are at a major disadvantage if you want to apply to a competetive program in any field. The COMLEX is a poorly written exam, and the grading is not comparable to the USMLE. It makes it easier for the programs to compare apples to apples as opposed to apples and oranges. With current curriculum changes at my school, students will not be adequately prepared for the USMLE. It is not about working harder or doing outside reading. I was given outdated information, and I was not taught how to think appropriately about clinical situations. Most, not all, of the hospitals where DO students rotate are small community hospitals where you will not see the pathology you need to see as a student and the teaching is often lacking. The schools mostly hire their own graduates preventing an influx of new ideas and real curriculum changes. The line is "I wasn't taught that, and I did fine. Why do they need it?" The schools are behind the curve in teaching evidence based medicine and clinical problem solving skills. My school did not require me to read a single peer reviewed original article during my education. I have many many many more reasons. If I could go back, I would never go to a DO school. Depsite all that, I am graduating in the top of my class, and I am going to my first choice for residency. I am not just a disgruntled medical student.

I hope this helps.

 

[javandane]

In terms of timing, that is up to you. The education is far inferior especially with regards to physiology, biochemistry, molecular biology, pathology, microbiology, pharmacology, and systems. The philosophy no longer really plays a role in the educational process. You will spend hours in OMM (Osteopathic Medical Manipulation) courses and labs. There is no research or at least quality research to support any of their techniques. You are urged to "believe" as if it is was a religion. Furthermore, OMM will not help you if you are planning a career in path. You are not looked down on for taking the USMLEs. The schools do not encourage this, but you are at a major disadvantage if you want to apply to a competetive program in any field. The COMLEX is a poorly written exam, and the grading is not comparable to the USMLE. It makes it easier for the programs to compare apples to apples as opposed to apples and oranges. With current curriculum changes at my school, students will not be adequately prepared for the USMLE. It is not about working harder or doing outside reading. I was given outdated information, and I was not taught how to think appropriately about clinical situations. Most, not all, of the hospitals where DO students rotate are small community hospitals where you will not see the pathology you need to see as a student and the teaching is often lacking. The schools mostly hire their own graduates preventing an influx of new ideas and real curriculum changes. The line is "I wasn't taught that, and I did fine. Why do they need it?" The schools are behind the curve in teaching evidence based medicine and clinical problem solving skills. My school did not require me to read a single peer reviewed original article during my education. I have many many many more reasons. If I could go back, I would never go to a DO school. Depsite all that, I am graduating in the top of my class, and I am going to my first choice for residency. I am not just a disgruntled medical student.

I hope this helps.

wow, i'm only an MS1, and i'm realizing already much, if not all, of what you've written holds true for my school as well. the funny thing is, every time i try to espouse my feelings to my peers (especially here on SDN), i get flamed. i attended a large research-oriented university as an undergrad, and the difference in quality of faculty between there and my med school is alarming. my undergrad profs were brilliant, and the exams challenging. the same cannot be said for the faculty or exams here. overall, i'm truly disappointed, as well as worried that i'll not fair well in competition with my allopathic counterpart.

you mentioned that preparing yourself for boards isn't about outside reading. if that's true, i'm screwed. i read as much as i can from texts and other sources in the hope that going above and beyond will put me at some advantage for the USMLE. how did you prepare for the exam, and why do you feel outside reading isn't enough?

 

[aviva]

I actually did very well on the USMLE step 2. I got a 99/254. I was unable to take step 1 due to a death in the family, though I would absolutely recommend taking both. I was lucky enough to have a very strong basic science background from undergrad. That was a huge help. Also, I am not a reader for tests. I only did test questions, and then read up on the areas I was doing poorly on. I liked Kaplan Qbank online and board simulator series. Goljan's CD is also very good. I have never sat in a review course. A large part of the problem is the way that the material was approached in my school. The think process on the exams and the way they taught was one step. A large part of the USMLE was two step thinking. We were taught to memorize lists of information and the USMLE is about understanding the information. In terms of studying, you should do what works best for you. Furthermore, if I were you, I would make every attempt to transfer into an allopathic school now. There a few a schools around the country that will take transfer from osteopathic schools, but it is a difficult process. Good luck.

 

[sacrament]

I always appreciate the way that a D.O. pathologist treats the entire biopsy, not just its symptoms.

 

[yaah]

I always appreciate the way that a D.O. pathologist treats the entire biopsy, not just its symptoms.

They also know how to guide it around the stage and adjust the focus very smoothly. Unfortunately too many slides end up broken from failed manipulation attempts.

The scented all natural oil that the hemepath DOs use though is quite pleasant.

 

[aviva]

These are the types of responses that you will get used to as a DO student. It is very unfortunate.

 

[bobg504]

I feel that some of what is discussed here is true, however all the inadequecies the OP discussed are not exclusive to osteopathic schools . I am currently a second year at KCUMB and feel that I have recieved a great education thus far as it relates to the subject matter mentioned above. This year alone, we had 5 students match is pathology at: University of Arkansas, University of Alabama at Birmingham, University of Missouri Columbia, and University of Colorado. Students at our school do well on the boards and match well. I did a research fellowship (in Cardiovascular Diseases) at the Mayo Clinic and Foundation this past summer and have an offer to do the CRTF (Clincal Research Training Fellowship). Opportunities abound, but as a DO we may have to search a bit more. Bottomline is that if you want something you have to work for it.

 

[stormjen]

I got to witness our program in action on the day of the Scramble. The program director refused to even consider DO's unless they were from a handful of schools he knew were good. He seemed to think that the quality of osteopathic schools varies remarkably and didn't trust anyone from an osteopathic school he wasn't familiar with. With that said, we do have DO's in our program.

 

[javandane]

I got to witness our program in action on the day of the Scramble. The program director refused to even consider DO's unless they were from a handful of schools he knew were good. He seemed to think that the quality of osteopathic schools varies remarkably and didn't trust anyone from an osteopathic school he wasn't familiar with. With that said, we do have DO's in our program.

which schools might those be?

 

[allendo]

My problem with this post is we are talking about pathology, just freakin pathology. "Oh my program director won't look at a D.O. unless the are from a certain school". Dude get real D.O.s matched into everything from gas, em and surg this year in allo institutions. These are professions that are on the front lines treating people who are alive. Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people. "The D.O. education is inadequate", maybe in West Virginia but at my school we have quality faculty and a great education. If you would get out of the lab more often you would see that it doesn't matter about the letters behind your name, it's who you are that makes the diff.

 

[drPLUM]

My problem with this post is we are talking about pathology, just freakin pathology. "Oh my program director won't look at a D.O. unless the are from a certain school". Dude get real D.O.s matched into everything from gas, em and surg this year in allo institutions. These are professions that are on the front lines treating people who are alive. Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people. "The D.O. education is inadequate", maybe in West Virginia but at my school we have quality faculty and a great education. If you would get out of the lab more often you would see that it doesn't matter about the letters behind your name, it's who you are that makes the diff.

Alright! Now its getting interesting around here. Nothing like a good ol' controversy to heat things up. This sure beats all the D&D posts. Hey, quick... somebody insult someone to keep it going. I know, I know... here we go, how about this... "oh yeah? I know you are but what am I?"

Dude I am LOL right now... "except for the occasional biopsy"! This is rich! Excuse me while I go get my popcorn...

 

[allendo]

Alright! Now its getting interesting around here. Nothing like a good ol' controversy to heat things up. This sure beats all the D&D posts. Hey, quick... somebody insult someone to keep it going. I know, I know... here we go, how about this... "oh yeah? I know you are but what am I?"

Dude I am LOL right now... "except for the occasional biopsy"! This is rich! Excuse me while I go get my popcorn...

I'm not trying to insult the profession I just don't see why the previous poster made it sound like path is so off limits to D.O.s. In my eyes we are equal, not one greater than the other. I would flame the same people who are saying D.O.s are greater than M.D. I think it's stupid to start crap like that. Why would it matter what school someone came from, If I made a 250 on the boards would it matter where I came from? I just don't stand for the petty crap that gets thrown around by insecure people about the D.O. degree. Your medical education is what you make of it, not the initials behind your name. We take the same classes and have research oriented proffs teaching, what else can you ask for.

 

[beary]

Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people. "The D.O. education is inadequate", maybe in West Virginia but at my school we have quality faculty and a great education.

Based on these two sentences, I humbly suggest that your education is something less than great.

 

[allendo]

Based on these two sentences, I humbly suggest that your education is something less than great.

Why? Because I didn't take the time to analyze everything I wrote to make it sound appropriate!

 

[CameronFrye]

My problem with this post is we are talking about pathology, just freakin pathology. "Oh my program director won't look at a D.O. unless the are from a certain school". Dude get real D.O.s matched into everything from gas, em and surg this year in allo institutions. These are professions that are on the front lines treating people who are alive. Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people. "The D.O. education is inadequate", maybe in West Virginia but at my school we have quality faculty and a great education. If you would get out of the lab more often you would see that it doesn't matter about the letters behind your name, it's who you are that makes the diff.

Wow.

 

[allendo]

Wow.

Again, I'm not bashing path. It's my favorite subject, and I believe they are probably the smartest people in the hospital. But to discount someone b/c of the D.O. stigma irritates me. If you look at the stats over half of path residencies have IMGs in them. Why would you be biased against another physician that trained in the U.S. vs over seas or carrib?

 

[JaneDough]

Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people. "The D.O. education is inadequate", maybe in West Virginia

You make me laugh! Clearly, you have not spent much time on the pathology service


Hey, dr.PLUM, pass the popcorn

 

[beary]

Hey, dr.PLUM, pass the popcorn

Can I have some too?

*settles down with popcorn and pop*

We better rest up before we treat dead people for the rest of our lives!

 

[pathres2]

Except for the occasional biopsy, you see dead people.

Hmmm... let's see... In most academic pathology programs the average yearly specimen load is something like this: 40,000-70,000 surgical cases vs. 100-250 autopsies. I would say your statement should be reversed: "except for the occasional dead person you guys just read biopsies..." (and now that I read it, I am not sure this sounds much better... but oh well!) Now, if you go to commercial labs (Quest, etc.) the ratio is more like 150,000 surgicals vs. 0 autopsies! M'kay? Plus, it was one of your own that started the thread and was bashing the DO education system to begin with.

The way I see it (with all its flaws) the Match system is relatively 'democratic' and 'free market-based' (in quotes because I don't want to make this into a silly political argument): if Pathology Program Directors want and can afford to leave DO's outside their rank lists, then it must mean that they don't think of them as highly. IMG's get a similar treatment by the way: the better a program is, the less IMG's they have (with the exception of some good medical schools from Europe that are equivalent to good American medical schools).

Now, let me enjoy my peanuts (don't like popcorn so much).

 

[drPLUM]

Maybe he was knowingly perpetuating a stereotype of pathologists because the thread was perpetuating a stereotype of DO's, and thus being subtle about making his point. If so, this was quite clever and I underestimated him.

 

[beary]

Maybe he was knowingly perpetuating a stereotype of pathologists because the thread was perpetuating a stereotype of DO's, and thus being subtle about making his point. If so, this was quite clever and I underestimated him.

You just gave the guy an easy out. 😛

*puts popcorn away*

 

[Zerosixjt]

Alright all, trying to get this back on track, does anyone know of duel residency programs in IM and Pathology (allopathic or osteopathic)?

 

[yaah]

Alright all, trying to get this back on track, does anyone know of duel residency programs in IM and Pathology (allopathic or osteopathic)?

Exsqueeze me? This makes no sense.

In regards to DOs applying, all you can do is apply. THere are probably very few programs out there that would reject you simply because you are from a DO school, and if so you should be able to get this just by sending an email to the program coordinator. Programs want good candidates who will make good residents, that is the bottom line.

 

[BamaAlum]

I'm a DO student who recently matched at a pretty good academic Path program. I really didn't encounter too much anti-DO bias out there. There were a few places at which I might have gotten interviews had I been an MD student, but they were at fairly competitive programs, so who knows? I think the key is to do well on USMLE Step 1. This allows the programs to more objectively compare you with your MD counterparts.

As far as the curriculum goes, I felt like my basic science years were definitely on par with some of the MD schools that my friends attended. I felt like the clinical years were where there was a potential discrepancy. This is due to the fact that most DO programs utilize community hospitals rather than academic hospitals for their clinical training sites. That being said, I worked with some great docs my 3rd year and made sure I did most of my 4th year at academic centers to compensate for any potential weaknesses.

Like Yaah alluded to, I feel like in 4 or 5 years if I have been a hard working resident who has been a team player and progressed to an appropriate level of competence it will matter very little whether I am a DO or not.

 

[stormjen]

Allendo, the fact that you are getting so riled up is just bizarre. I merely stated the observation I made while at the front lines of the hiring process: there are program directors who do in fact discriminate against DO's; this should really come as no surprise. And just as some allopathic schools are looked down upon and others will be held in esteem, it's the same with osteopathic schools. In addition, I made no statement about my own opinion of DO's, which--if you care, is that the ones I've worked with are exactly the same as MD's.

 

[allendo]

Allendo, the fact that you are getting so riled up is just bizarre. I merely stated the observation I made while at the front lines of the hiring process: there are program directors who do in fact discriminate against DO's; this should really come as no surprise. And just as some allopathic schools are looked down upon and others will be held in esteem, it's the same with osteopathic schools. In addition, I made no statement about my own opinion of DO's, which--if you care, is that the ones I've worked with are exactly the same as MD's.

Sorry I was having a bad day!

 

[djmd]

One problem for pathology DOs is the inability to practice in some states unless you do a separate Clinical internship. No being a DO myself, I don't remember all of the states (I think 5-6 total?), but I know from other residents in my program that PA is one of those states.

And No I don't think there is any reason why DOs are not able to go into Pathology. Heck, most of what MDs or DOs learn in medical school has very little to do with Pathology anyways.

 

[Non-Trad DO]

Strictly to the topic of the OP; I applied to 19 schools got 6 interviews and am going to the program at Danbury Hospital in Connecticut.
I wanted to live in Florida but am originally fron Ohio. I have family in Connecticut which is the only reason I applied to schools there.
Now, I was aware that there may be some bias out there so I did not apply to the program at Yale but did apply to Mt.Sinai whomI got an almost instatanious rejection from.
I interviewed at ( in the order in which I ranked them): 1) Orlando Regional Medical Center (Personally,I worked my ass off on this elective and it paid off with the interview however, they didn't even rank me b/c they were looking for 3 and only matched 2. Now this could have been b/c fla is one of the states that requires a trad rot yr or b/c they don't like DO. I actually think it was the former of the two b/c unless they are really good liars I think they liked me. 2) Danbury Hospital. Affiliated with Yale. I got a really good "feeling" from this place on interview day. They were nice and many of the faculty are Yale grads. and There is some teaching I will be able to do for the Med Tech program there which is required of the resident. I was a med tech in my former life. 3) Case Western Reserve, UHHS. This is a high powered program with all of the research opportunitires you could imagine and an excellent teaching program. Of the program directors that I met on my interviews Dr Hoffman was not only the nicest but also seemed the most sincere and I had multiple communications with him while in the pergatory of the waiting game. 4) Case Western Reserve, Metro. Good program, good teaching and research opportunities nice people. 5) Hartford Hospital. Offered me a spot outside the match. Good place,nice program,affiliated with UConn, seemed a little desperate when the started bashing Danbury out of no where. Told them I'd take my chances in the match. Mainly b/c I wanted to live in fla however, did not say this. 6) Allegahany General Hospital, Pittsburgh, Pa. Another state that requires the trad rot yr. They actually have a LECOM alum there and we spoke at length about the trouble she was having getting the trad rot yr exemption. Thus bottom of the list. However, excellent program, research, people and a DO attending on staff. Minuses, PD seemed a little aloof and upset when I didn't know he was a cytology path guru, Dr Silverman. I actually felt as though they weren't going to rank me after the interview b/c of it.
I hope this helps. In case you want to know I only applied to areas of the country where I have family b/c my wife and I will need some help with our children (2). If you don't have this situation you can apply whereever your heart desires and you may get more interviews. Good luck

 

[djmd]

3) Case Western Reserve, UHHS. ... 4) Case Western Reserve, Metro.

Just curious did you not apply at Cleveland Clinic? or not get an interview?
You metion the two other Cleveland porgrams.
If it is no interview, I understand that they have gotten very numbers (boards, etc) biased, because they get sooo many aps now...

 

[Non-Trad DO]

🙂 I did indeed apply and they chose not to interview me. Why they chose that I dod not know.

 

[djmd]

🙂 I did indeed apply and they chose not to interview me. Why they chose that I dod not know.

Crazy randomness most-likely.

I just like to make sure Cleveland Clinic, does have some sort of bad rap...
(some programs down the street like to make us seem that way) 😀

Good Luck in CT.

 

[Non-Trad DO]

🙂 Yeah, no bad rap. If fact while I was there all the "other programs down the street" really talked about was their program. From others I've heard The Clinic acually has a good "rap".
Thanks. Good luck to you also.