DO's that become General Surgeons

[Senor.Frog]

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I know that DO's are licensed to practice medicine just as well and sometimes better than a lot of MD's. But from what I have been reading it seems that most DO graduates go into residency in some field of internal medicine. Plus, all of the surgeons that I have come across have been MD's, except of course the one orthopod that I met in Georgia.

My question is this, "Do you think it is harder to get a surgical residency after graduating with a DO than an MD?"

 

[Sharky]

It's easy to get into a surgery program as a DO. You can apply to DO surgery programs also. Just take the USMLE and do well in it, then you should get into some program somewhere in the US. Now, how good that program is would be a different story, but hey you'll be a surgeon.

 

[skypilot]

I think there is a lot of self selection going on. Many people apply to be DO because they like hands on primary care medicine.

If you are gung ho to be a surgeon that should be no problem though. You can even study Neurosurgery at PCOM.

 

[InductionAgent]

Dr. Still was not a big fan of surgery as an intervention

This is largely because back in his day. it had extremely poor outcomes resulting from poor sterilization techniques, no antibiotics to prevent wound infection, no effective drugs to stabilize patients, no ventilators, extremely rudimentary anesthesia, etc.

Nonetheless, he stated that three most important subjects of an Osteopathic curriculum are "Anatomy, anatomy, and anatomy." This emphasis on anatomy is still very prevalent in an osteopathic curriculum, and it goes without saying that a firm grasp of the subject is essential to becoming a good surgeon.

 

[hotlikebutter]

Dr. Still was not a big fan of surgery as an intervention

This is largely because back in his day. it had extremely poor outcomes resulting from poor sterilization techniques, no antibiotics to prevent wound infection, no effective drugs to stabilize patients, no ventilators, extremely rudimentary anesthesia, etc.

Nonetheless, he stated that three most important subjects of an Osteopathic curriculum are "Anatomy, anatomy, and anatomy." This emphasis on anatomy is still very prevalent in an osteopathic curriculum, and it goes without saying that a firm grasp of the subject is essential to becoming a good surgeon.

he also hated the use of most drugs. the DO profession is way different than he thought or wanted it to be. from my reading, it has evolved due in large part to physicians who held both degrees thus understanding the need for cures that are effective with or without drugs or surgery. you are right though, I would think master of anatomy is key either way. but i think the residency training is by far the most critical factor in making a surgeon not med school curriculum. on that note, you can do anything you want as DO. I even saw a DO plastic surgeon on MTV's I want a famous face! Now that's big time 😛

 

[Senor.Frog]

I heard about PCOM's neurosurgery program, which gives good options for graduating DO's. The orthopod I mentioned is actually the chief of that department in a pretty large hospital in Tucker, Georgia. So, I definately think that DO's have got their "foot" into specialities but there is still a ways to go.

My concern is this though, don't DO students have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE to get an allopathic residency? If that is the case, what is the liklihood that you could do well on both since they do cover different aspects/topics. Plus, do you think a DO student would be at a disadvantage in some ways because the curriculum at DO schools are tailored to teach you what is primarily tested on the COMLEX (e.g. OMM) and not the USMLE?

 

[medic170]

I heard about PCOM's neurosurgery program, which gives good options for graduating DO's. The orthopod I mentioned is actually the chief of that department in a pretty large hospital in Tucker, Georgia. So, I definately think that DO's have got their "foot" into specialities but there is still a ways to go.

My concern is this though, don't DO students have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE to get an allopathic residency? If that is the case, what is the liklihood that you could do well on both since they do cover different aspects/topics. Plus, do you think a DO student would be at a disadvantage in some ways because the curriculum at DO schools are tailored to teach you what is primarily tested on the COMLEX (e.g. OMM) and not the USMLE?

Most allopathic residencies actually will accept COMLEX, but there are some that require usmle, and all the stats show that DO students score about the same on USMLE as they do on COMLEX.

 

[docbill]

From what I was told... they are similar.. and studying for both is do-able.. also I was told that DO score fairly good on the USMLEs. BTW.. you only have to do the USMLE if you want an Allop res... if you want a DO res then you don't need USMLE.

I am not sure about joint AOA/ALL residencies.

Both DO and MD programs teach you the same thing. Both will prepare you for USMLE/ COMPLEX etc... it is how the person prepared individually for these test. A good example someone used earlier on SDN. It is like the MCAT... One can have a 3.99/4 GPA but still score 20 on the MCAT... not because S/he was not properly trained by his universit.. rather S/he did not study for the test.

Hopef that helps.

 

[docbill]

Maybe medic is right...

I am not sure if some ALL RES take COMPLEX.

 

[KUMC_MD]

I even saw a DO plastic surgeon on MTV's I want a famous face! Now that's big time 😛

can you give a link to something like that? id like to read about it...

 

[Talula21]

From what I was told... they are similar.. and studying for both is do-able.. also I was told that DO score fairly good on the USMLEs. BTW.. you only have to do the USMLE if you want an Allop res... if you want a DO res then you don't need USMLE.

I am not sure about joint AOA/ALL residencies.

Both DO and MD programs teach you the same thing. Both will prepare you for USMLE/ COMPLEX etc... it is how the person prepared individually for these test. A good example someone used earlier on SDN. It is like the MCAT... One can have a 3.99/4 GPA but still score 20 on the MCAT... not because S/he was not properly trained by his universit.. rather S/he did not study for the test.

Hopef that helps.

Right on......I totally agree with this statement. Its all about personal ability..... 😀

 

[D.O.ctor J]

It's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

 

[docbill]

sorry about that.. too quick to think straight.. for others.. you may find other spelling mastickes in my spelling.. I am left handed so that causes some problems with using my brain!!

 

[sophiejane]

Dr. Still was not a big fan of surgery as an intervention

This is largely because back in his day. it had extremely poor outcomes resulting from poor sterilization techniques, no antibiotics to prevent wound infection, no effective drugs to stabilize patients, no ventilators, extremely rudimentary anesthesia, etc.

Nonetheless, he stated that three most important subjects of an Osteopathic curriculum are "Anatomy, anatomy, and anatomy." This emphasis on anatomy is still very prevalent in an osteopathic curriculum, and it goes without saying that a firm grasp of the subject is essential to becoming a good surgeon.

There is very little in modern osteopathic education that Dr. Still would RECOGNIZE, much less condone. The core values are there, but little else. We learn OMT and we have a different history and more emphasis on primary care, but other than that (and possibly more openness to non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical treatment modalities), you'd be hard-pressed to find anything different.

 

[docbill]

I agree with that.. I just finished reading the DO.. wow.. what a story.. can't wait to see how this will become in 2054.

The way I like to see it is that as Science evolved so did osteopathic medicine. The state of medicine in 1850s was poor and little was known. At that time Dr.A Still was completely right to set a different path... (and it did very well to patients). But as science and discoveries came to light. DO's (many) struggled to incorporate and use these powerful tools. Now once again.. DO's are strugling to identify themselves. I guess that will be up to us. Good LUCK

BA

 

[Ypo.]

I heard about PCOM's neurosurgery program, which gives good options for graduating DO's. The orthopod I mentioned is actually the chief of that department in a pretty large hospital in Tucker, Georgia. So, I definately think that DO's have got their "foot" into specialities but there is still a ways to go.

My concern is this though, don't DO students have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE to get an allopathic residency? If that is the case, what is the liklihood that you could do well on both since they do cover different aspects/topics. Plus, do you think a DO student would be at a disadvantage in some ways because the curriculum at DO schools are tailored to teach you what is primarily tested on the COMLEX (e.g. OMM) and not the USMLE?

No, DOs don't have to take USMLE to do most allopathic residencies-at least that is what DO students have told me.
Good questions, though-ones I would like answered without having to guess. Try posting in the osteopathic forum. Boy oh boy-I keep saying to myself 'theres got to be some drawbacks to being a DO'-either that or its one of the world's best kept secrets.

I don't even want to be a surgeon-but if I change my mind about that-I want to keep my options open.

 

[Ypo.]

Most allopathic residencies actually will accept COMLEX, but there are some that require usmle, and all the stats show that DO students score about the same on USMLE as they do on COMLEX.

Really, are you sure about that? The students in the osteopathic forum told me that DOs do a lot worse on the USMLE than on the COMLEX. I'd rather believe what you are saying.

Can you refer me to those stats? Or is this just something you heard.

 

[Ypo.]

From what I was told... they are similar.. and studying for both is do-able.. also I was told that DO score fairly good on the USMLEs. BTW.. you only have to do the USMLE if you want an Allop res... if you want a DO res then you don't need USMLE.

QUOTE]

I hate to be annoying here-but I was just told by some of our superiors in the osteopathic forum that the COMLEX and USMLE actually are written differently. They said the USMLE was written better, and that DO students don't do as well on the USMLE because they aren't as prepared for they way they ask the questions on that test. Probably the curriculum in the two types of med schools are geared towards preparing for their respective tests, thus explaining the difference in scores.

Also, you don't need to take the USMLE for many allopathic residencies- they even have conversion charts for the COMLEX so they can compare it with USMLE scores.

We just wouldn't want to give out false information here. I'm just reporting what I heard from people who actually took both tests.

 

[Sense]

either that or its one of the world's best kept secrets.

It's true. Osteopathy is one of the world's best kept secrets. 😀

Yposhelley, I have seen from your posts that you are interested in family practice. If that is the case, know that basically for allopathic primary care residencies, the COMLEX is all you need to match due to that conversion chart from the USMLE.

I am similar to you in that I want to do FP, and probably will just take the COMLEX. Realize that to take all three steps of the COMLEX, it will cost you $2,000 and taking all 3 steps of the USMLE will also cost $2,000. You can just take step 1 of the USMLE which costs $400 or something like that.

I think the general consensus is that if you're a DO who doesn't know what field you want to go in and you want to keep all your options open, you're best bet is to take USMLE step 1 only and all 3 steps of the COMLEX.

I believe the statistic is that around 72% of DO students pass USMLE on their first try compared to 93% of MD students. The number seems low but canadian students also are around 70% in passing USMLE.

The way it was explained to our class is that the Canadian and DO students need to take and pass their own boards to become liscensed. The USMLE is not really a requirement but an extra that looks good if you do well, so students tend to do better on something they have to pass than something that is just extra, like the USMLE.

 

[Ypo.]

Yay for Sense!
So what you are saying is -at the most, take USMLE step one, and its not necessary/won't increase your options, to take the other steps of USMLE, for any residency?

In other words, suppose I wanted to do an orthopedic surgery residency-would you recommend taking just step one USMLE?

The less I have to do, the better, its not like I'm dying to prove myself by taking the USMLE and doing well on it. I just get a huge chip on my shoulder when I feel my options are being limited. 😳

 

[InductionAgent]

There is very little in modern osteopathic education that Dr. Still would RECOGNIZE, much less condone. The core values are there, but little else. We learn OMT and we have a different history and more emphasis on primary care, but other than that (and possibly more openness to non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical treatment modalities), you'd be hard-pressed to find anything different.

You're right. One of the few things that he would still recognize (as it has changed very little) is ANATOMY, which is to his credit that he stated it was the most important part of an Osteopathic education.

Besides, how much would any (other) M.D. from the late 1800s recognize in today's (DO or MD) medical curriculum?

I think that you've taken what I've said out of context. I was simply pointing out that DO schools always have, and still do, place a lot of emphasis on anatomy, which is a good thing to mention in an interview at an allopathic surgical residency program should the interviewers start asking "why did you go to D.O. school" kinds of questions.

 

[Sense]

Yay for Sense!
So what you are saying is -at the most, take USMLE step one, and its not necessary/won't increase your options, to take the other steps of USMLE, for any residency?

In other words, suppose I wanted to do an orthopedic surgery residency-would you recommend taking just step one USMLE?

The less I have to do, the better, its not like I'm dying to prove myself by taking the USMLE and doing well on it. I just get a huge chip on my shoulder when I feel my options are being limited. 😳

For the most part that is correct. You would take USMLE step 1 after your 2nd year and would apply for residency beginning your 4th year. The match is sometime in March, the latter part of your 4th year. They primarily will look at your step 1 scores, in this case both your COMLEX and USMLE scores, with more emphasis on your USMLE scores if it is an allopathic residency.

After you get into residency, you don't have to finish all the USMLE steps, but you do have to take all 3 steps of COMLEX to be liscensed to practice medicine. Now, I've also heard that sometimes DOs also take the USMLE step 2 which is taken during your 4th year and send those scores in while residency directors are ranking candidates to give them an extra bump. I guess it's sort of like taking the MCAT again, doing better, and showing extra scores.

I am not entirely sure if this is really necessary and many DOs especially on SDN have advised that USMLE step 1 is enough to be competitive for allopathic residencies. In any case, I too am weary of limited options so I may take the USMLE step 1 but don't know yet.

 

[InductionAgent]

When I was talking to the UW-Seattle Anesthesia PD during a rotation out there, he seemed impressed by my USMLE Step 1 score of 237/96 (good, but not heroic), and I feel that it pre-empted any concerns that my D.O. education would not be commensurate to that of the M.D. applicants.

The thing is, there's no reason not to take USMLE Step 1, because if you bomb it, then just don't release your score to ERAS, and pretend you never took it.

 

[irishlaydi]

I agree with that.. I just finished reading the DO.. wow.. what a story.. can't wait to see how this will become in 2054.

Hi. Just wanted to know what book you are talking about???

 

[Talula21]

irishlaydi....I'm not 100% sure I know what book they are talking about, but you should read The D.O.'s by Norman Gevitz (I think this is probably the book being talked about). There is a link *somewhere* here on SDN about that book and others concerning Osteopathy. I found it by just looking around and clicking on different links. Sorry I can't be more specific. 🙂

t21

 

[docbill]

It's true. Osteopathy is one of the world's best kept secrets. 😀

Yposhelley, I have seen from your posts that you are interested in family practice. If that is the case, know that basically for allopathic primary care residencies, the COMLEX is all you need to match due to that conversion chart from the USMLE.

I am similar to you in that I want to do FP, and probably will just take the COMLEX. Realize that to take all three steps of the COMLEX, it will cost you $2,000 and taking all 3 steps of the USMLE will also cost $2,000. You can just take step 1 of the USMLE which costs $400 or something like that.

I think the general consensus is that if you're a DO who doesn't know what field you want to go in and you want to keep all your options open, you're best bet is to take USMLE step 1 only and all 3 steps of the COMLEX.

I believe the statistic is that around 72% of DO students pass USMLE on their first try compared to 93% of MD students. The number seems low but canadian students also are around 70% in passing USMLE.

The way it was explained to our class is that the Canadian and DO students need to take and pass their own boards to become liscensed. The USMLE is not really a requirement but an extra that looks good if you do well, so students tend to do better on something they have to pass than something that is just extra, like the USMLE.

Great advice guys. I am learning more on this board then I actually knew before applying to DO schools. It is true.. as a Canadian.. I will have to do many many different test. For example if I want to become a specialist.. then I would need to do the COMLEXs and the USMLEs to get an Allop resid... (if conversion chart not available.. or want to make sure lots of doors are open)... at the same time I will have to do the Canadian exams.. which can be different depending on Province... all in all.. I will need an extra year to be able to study for all the different exams. My friends did poor on USMLEs cause usually they have to write it at the same time as the canadian exams.

But I don't think it has much to do with the content... it is more the type of test.

 

[Ypo.]

When I was talking to the UW-Seattle Anesthesia PD during a rotation out there, he seemed impressed by my USMLE Step 1 score of 237/96 (good, but not heroic), and I feel that it pre-empted any concerns that my D.O. education would not be commensurate to that of the M.D. applicants.

The thing is, there's no reason not to take USMLE Step 1, because if you bomb it, then just don't release your score to ERAS, and pretend you never took it.

Wow, really? There is no way for them to find out if you took it or not? Is it like the MCAT where you can opt to scratch you score if you 'feel' you did badly, or do you actually get to look at your score and then decide? If so, that would be cool.

 

[sophiejane]

You're right. One of the few things that he would still recognize (as it has changed very little) is ANATOMY, which is to his credit that he stated it was the most important part of an Osteopathic education.

Besides, how much would any (other) M.D. from the late 1800s recognize in today's (DO or MD) medical curriculum?

I think that you've taken what I've said out of context. I was simply pointing out that DO schools always have, and still do, place a lot of emphasis on anatomy, which is a good thing to mention in an interview at an allopathic surgical residency program should the interviewers start asking "why did you go to D.O. school" kinds of questions.

All medical schools place a lot of emphasis on anatomy--this is not something unique at all. What is unique is that you get REINFORCEMENT of your anatomy through OMT. I am grateful for that because it has helped me retain my anatomy to a much greater degree than if I learned it once, took the test, and never really saw it again until boards.

I was just pointing out that there is nothing really special about the emphasis on anatomy at DO schools or really the way it is taught. We all learn the same stuff, it's just that DO students get a chance to use it sooner, which is a real benefit, I think.

The best thing to say when someone asks you why you went to a DO school (especially a surgery PD at an allopathic program) is the truth. Be honest--because they are going to see right through you if you start BSing about anatomy. They know just as well as anyone in the medical field that DOs do not have special emphasis on learning anatomy. I would mention that OMT helped you to retain it, however, if this was true for you.

 

[VentdependenT]

Its relatively difficult to land university based GS programs as a DO. It is done (Ohio St. seems to have a few), but applicants who do so have done their respective homework, rotations, research, and landed letters from people on the inside/who have recognizable names. Tough luck landing a spot without a good USMLE score/s. PD's will shrug off the COMLEX in a heartbeat.

However if you want an allopathic or osteopathic community based program you should have no problem landing one at all. Not much bias. You'll still be a good general surgeon as long as you've researched the program.

For what its worth.

 

[JunkintheTrunk]

i worked for a group of cardiothoracic surgeons, only 1 out of the bunch of 20 was a d.o....and you have to think that he graduated at least 15+ years ago ....probably challenging for him (just like for an m.d. in the same situation), but if you're a d.o. you can do anything an m.d. can. 😀