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read a personal statement from an applicant saying he was "top 15 in his class"..... out of 17 people............. hahahaha
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Started by JAJE
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Man, from day 1 of being a student to this point in time right now, things have changed quite a bit huh?
My pod school was one of the smaller schools, and we lost <5 b/w orientation day to graduation day (2 for personal reasons, not academic). Not too bad. You're telling me these schools are losing OVER 50% of their students now? Or that class sizes have dipped below 20 now? I didn't graduate that long ago for reference haha.
Good for the saturation issue though. 🤣
these next few classes are pretty tiny. quality of applicant is horrible. the bar is much lower than it used to be.
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Yeah, falling admissions will really make them tighten up the process.....
They're more spread out with 4 new schools in 20 years, though.
The hope (plan?) had always been that the new podiatry schools generated their own app pool, but they basically just siphon from existing (Western mostly from SMU, AZ from Dmu and Scholl, Erie from Kent and NY and Temple, Rio from Barry, etc).
There should never be schools added without a need (jobs, demand) and a surplus of GOOD applications to existing schools. Podiatry obviously has neither... we just found universities that want to make money and people who want dean and professor jobs. We did what pharmacy schools did 25 years earlier, and long term results will be the same.
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But the problem or concern is not: which University system gets to profit most off the student loan dollars. It is: how many total graduate there are every year.
There are still over 500 students matriculating every year. That might be down from the highest it’s ever been. But there is nothing “tiny” about current or incoming podiatry classes. That’s the point. It’s not that I disagree with your post, it just has nothing to do with anything in that reply you quoted.
But regarding your post, It’s probably a good sign that enrollment hasn’t increased with the opening of new programs. It means the same students are just spreading out a bit. That’s basically best case scenario for the profession with the number of available seats increasing (because of greed, not need). That should be a slogan on a bumper sticker. If you can’t stop new programs from getting accreditation, all you can do is hope the number of graduates doesn’t increase. So far that’s been true. But they aren’t going down, so folks can just stop regurgitating that info.
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Geez, that # needs to be 1/4 of what it is.
Shower thought....the solution to the biggest issues in our field are rather obvious and simple from my POV. We luckily have pharmacy, optometry, and to some extent, dentistry to see what happens with this unfettered "growth" of new schools.
Shut all the standalone schools down, cause it's just extra cost for the sponsoring institution for no reason. Are they even profitable these days if less and less students are matriculating?
Just keep the combo schools with MD/DO because the didactic professors are already getting paid anyways to teach the MD/DO students, so it's not gonna cost the sponsoring institutions much to add a few pod-specific professors and courses sort of like they already do at DMU, MWU, and western.
It's also good PR for the field since the MD/DO students you're with see we are learning what they are, taking the same tests, doing the same anatomy labs, clinic sims, etc. The percentage of people in the DO-class during my time in school that were shocked podiatry learns actual medicine was 100% haha.
It will help the saturation issue, job market, and help standardize GOOD residency training over time too obviously. It can allow us to shut all the C&C and retractor monkey programs down. For those who say, "not all pods want or need to operate". You are correct. Don't go to pod school then lol. If you want to do clinical podiatry, become a PA or NP, and we can have a 6 month "fellowship". If you just want to do RFC, well too bad, there's already advanced practitioners, basic RN's, and podologists doing that stuff; they can expand and take care of it.
Everybody wins.
There’s only so many 400 dollar reimbursement bunions to go around..
None of the schools are truly standalone anymore. NYCPM was the last loner program until Touro gobbled it up. I guess Samuel Merritt is different because it's bunched in with nursing programs. Anyway I could be wrong about all those details.
My real question in response is who decides which schools to shut down? And the answer is--the schools need to self select. And that won't happen, the cost of running a school on margin is too low. Even with enrollment at 25% the universities will still make money selling DPM degrees. This was the ONLY good argument for opening more schools (which doesn't outweigh the dozens of good arguments for just torching half of them) that if you open new podiatry schools with a stronger curriculum, it puts competitive pressure on the remaining schools to strengthen their curriculums, and those that can't compete won't survive.
Honestly I’d imagine there’s a lot of behind the scenes money and funding, donations, etc that keeps the schools alive and thriving. There’s a lot of money to be made when each student is worth 300k
Grants, nonprofits, alumni stuff, you name it. That’s what keeps the engines going. Meanwhile some schools are “nonprofit”. Supposedly.
Grants, nonprofits, alumni stuff, you name it. That’s what keeps the engines going. Meanwhile some schools are “nonprofit”. Supposedly.
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This is the only hope for podiatry.
This is a rock-paper-scissors cycle of arguments.
The problem with the 3 year residency is that many of us don't need 3 years and it hurts the podiatry ROI to be tied up in school/training that long. The dental model is best.
The problem with the dental model is that we then have a patchwork of providers, some of whom are surgical and some of whom are not. It would be better if we revert to our role as non-physician allied health professionals and leave surgery to ortho/general/vascular surgery. So the allied health professional model is best.
The problem with all podiatrists as nonsurgical allied health professionals is that ortho/general/vascular lack the training/interest to surgically manage a lot of foot problems, and this is why podiatrists need a 3 year surgical residency. So the 3 year residency is best.
But the problem with the 3 year residency is...
The problem with the 3 year residency is that many of us don't need 3 years and it hurts the podiatry ROI to be tied up in school/training that long. The dental model is best.
The problem with the dental model is that we then have a patchwork of providers, some of whom are surgical and some of whom are not. It would be better if we revert to our role as non-physician allied health professionals and leave surgery to ortho/general/vascular surgery. So the allied health professional model is best.
The problem with all podiatrists as nonsurgical allied health professionals is that ortho/general/vascular lack the training/interest to surgically manage a lot of foot problems, and this is why podiatrists need a 3 year surgical residency. So the 3 year residency is best.
But the problem with the 3 year residency is...
I think this hole oh we don't know who is a surgeon and who is not thing is way overblown. It's not brain surgery it's easy for people to figure out and guess what not a big deal they just show up and the doctor says hey I don't actually do that I'm going to send you to the right person who does. And then in terms of other specialties knowing what is and is not our training..... This is not 2006.... It's 2026. Remember we're not this little undiscovered gem people know what podiatry is and is not.
Easy solution to this. Those with a one year office/limited surgical residency do not sniff the inside of a hospital.
They don’t get privileges at any hospital/ASC.
Anything they are allowed to do “surgical” is limited to skin only and in office.
Let the three year trained podiatrist market himself/herself as a podiatric surgeon maybe their DPM changes to a DPS after residency of which there are only 50-100 residency positions.
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Obviously you're smart enough to know
and I'm smart enoufh to know
and most patients are probably smart enough to know
and a few hospital admins are probably smart enough to figure it out
but podiatry scope of licensure is defined by law and most state legislatures move at a glacial pace and will not effect the change you are proposing any time this decade or next.
I mean many pods are making more than all but 3 of those above us....
We're still a very oversaturated field, nonetheless. Compare the submission numbers 'n' to orthopedics and surgery.
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I wanted to throw some real-world numbers out there for residents, fellows, and associates who are looking at the long-term math of partnership. I recently ran a mid-year analysis on my numbers, and I think it highlights why fighting for a piece of the facility fee is so critical.
Here is exactly how my collections and overhead break down as a partner:
If I throw my ambulatory surgery center (ASC) dividends into the total equation, I am actually being paid 68% of every dollar I collect. I am absolutely thrilled with that....which helps offsets the fact that I'm not thrilled about typical payer reimbursement.
The Philosophy on Adding ASC Dividends to Your Overhead Equation: Some people separate clinical collections from facility dividends, but I consider it completely fair to add them together when determining the true financial value of my work.
Certainly dont invlove it to the equation when trying to find ways to tighten up clinic overhead. But it's nice to help get a wide angle view of total revenue.
If you aren't cashing in on the facility fees for the cases you bring to the table, you are leaving a massive amount of money on the bone. The difference between taking home 55% versus 68% of your production completely changes the math on your career longevity and retirement timeline. My partner makes an even better percentage. because they are more productive and a part of multiple surgery centers.
For the guys looking at contracts or partnership tracks right now: don't just look at the base salary or the bonus percentage. Look at the path to ASC ownership. It makes a huge difference.
Here is exactly how my collections and overhead break down as a partner:
- Raw Partnership Payout: I am currently paid about 62% of my raw collections after shared practice overhead
- The "True" Take-Home: After I deduct my personal LLC business expenses (malpractice insurance, CME, licensing, etc.), that net payout drops to about 55% of collections.
- I do end up makeing aroud $5k+ annually on top of that for some basic hardware consulting.
If I throw my ambulatory surgery center (ASC) dividends into the total equation, I am actually being paid 68% of every dollar I collect. I am absolutely thrilled with that....which helps offsets the fact that I'm not thrilled about typical payer reimbursement.
The Philosophy on Adding ASC Dividends to Your Overhead Equation: Some people separate clinical collections from facility dividends, but I consider it completely fair to add them together when determining the true financial value of my work.
- The physical work I do doesn’t change.
- I would be performing the exact same surgeries regardless.
- The only variable is who gets the facility fee.
Certainly dont invlove it to the equation when trying to find ways to tighten up clinic overhead. But it's nice to help get a wide angle view of total revenue.
If you aren't cashing in on the facility fees for the cases you bring to the table, you are leaving a massive amount of money on the bone. The difference between taking home 55% versus 68% of your production completely changes the math on your career longevity and retirement timeline. My partner makes an even better percentage. because they are more productive and a part of multiple surgery centers.
For the guys looking at contracts or partnership tracks right now: don't just look at the base salary or the bonus percentage. Look at the path to ASC ownership. It makes a huge difference.
Getting some media and celebrity clout
If I find an eye equivalent to this, will let you know.
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