Dr. DNP vs. Dr. MD

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flightnurse2MD

flightnurse2MD

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During a clerkship, I got "chastised" for not addressing a DNP prepared nurse practitioner as Dr. X. Why is this a thing? I have had attendings introduce themselves by their first names to me. Obviously, I address them as Dr. X and I ask residents how they want to be addressed and its usually by their first name only. Most of our PT guys are doctrate prepared and all our clinical pharmacists are doctorate level, but they never want to be called Dr. X. So why the big push by some DNPs to be called Dr.? Things that make you go hmmmm.....
 
sun_devil33 said:
During a clerkship, I got "chastised" for not addressing a DNP prepared nurse practitioner as Dr. X. Why is this a thing? I have had attendings introduce themselves by their first names to me. Obviously, I address them as Dr. X and I ask residents how they want to be addressed and its usually by their first name only. Most of our PT guys are doctrate prepared and all our clinical pharmacists are doctorate level, but they never want to be called Dr. X. So why the big push by some DNPs to be called Dr.? Things that make you go hmmmm.....
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There's this little seed in their heart, a little granuloma, it's non-caseating, difficult to treat. It's called insecurity.
 
WedgeDawg said:
You're literally the lowest person on the totem pole. Address everyone as Dr. - even the custodial staff - until you're told otherwise. This isn't the place to take a stand.
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Should he call the custodial staff by "Dr." in front of patients? Or is it okay to do so in the fighting-for-their-life patient's room when family are around and it's a tense environment? How about in a packed inner city ER? Can you imagine the look on the faces of those patients when they find out their doctor is busy changing out the light bulb or throwing out the trash instead of seeing patients.

I get the thought of being humble and not picking out dumb fights. From what I read, I didn't get the idea that OP sought out confrontation--just that he's posting on an anonymous forum on a topic that gets brought up fairly often on here.
 
Taco Time said:
Should he call the custodial staff by "Dr." in front of patients? Or is it okay to do so in the fighting-for-their-life patient's room when family are around and it's a tense environment? How about in a packed inner city ER? Can you imagine the look on the faces of those patients when they find out their doctor is busy changing out the light bulb or throwing out the trash instead of seeing patients.

I get the thought of being humble and not picking out dumb fights. From what I read, I didn't get the idea that OP sought out confrontation--just that he's posting on an anonymous forum on a topic that gets brought up fairly often on here.
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Sorry, I didn't intend for my statement to be taken literally. My point was just that we aren't in a position to make a fuss when someone wants to be addressed in a certain way. If OP is just venting, I get that, fine. I'm just cautioning that they shouldn't do anything about it that might be construed as confrontational.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Sorry, I didn't intend for my statement to be taken literally. My point was just that we aren't in a position to make a fuss when someone wants to be addressed in a certain way. If OP is just venting, I get that, fine. I'm just cautioning that they shouldn't do anything about it that might be construed as confrontational.
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I agree 100%. OP, or any student on here, should just suck it up and call the DNP whatever they prefer, in my opinion. It's only 2-8 weeks for that rotation, and any negative impression made can hurt.
 
sun_devil33 said:
During a clerkship, I got "chastised" for not addressing a DNP prepared nurse practitioner as Dr. X. Why is this a thing? I have had attendings introduce themselves by their first names to me. Obviously, I address them as Dr. X and I ask residents how they want to be addressed and its usually by their first name only. Most of our PT guys are doctrate prepared and all our clinical pharmacists are doctorate level, but they never want to be called Dr. X. So why the big push by some DNPs to be called Dr.? Things that make you go hmmmm.....
Click to expand...

Even as an attending I would call a DNP Dr if thats going to make them happy, we face battles everyday, have to chose them wisely...
 
WedgeDawg said:
Sorry, I didn't intend for my statement to be taken literally. My point was just that we aren't in a position to make a fuss when someone wants to be addressed in a certain way. If OP is just venting, I get that, fine. I'm just cautioning that they shouldn't do anything about it that might be construed as confrontational.
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Better safe than sorry. Remember the custodian on Scrubs. He would've gotten along a lot better if he had called him Dr. "You stick a penny in that door?"
 
Tenk said:
Most doctors don't care about being called doctor because after about a month you don't even realize it anymore. If you are making a point to have someone call you doctor you have some pretty bad self esteem issues and probably don't even lift.
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Exactly, honestly don't give a rats a** what I am called. I have a great gig. I know my role, I know that I went to med school and did 7 years of training afterwards, and I know what my paycheck is/time-off etc...
 
This reminds me of my years in nursing school. On several occasions during my 2 years of nursing school, students would accidentally address a PhD instructor as Mrs. X instead of Dr. X. They would flip out and correct them and say "Ummmm Dr.????? That is rude!". Then I started the route to medical school and had instructors with PhD's in chemistry, physics, etc. This same mistake happened multiple times during my pre med science classes and the instructors never said a word. Working in the hospitals around doctors (MD/DO) I have heard the same thing, or they would address the doctor by their first name. No big deal to them. I have concluded that it is a self esteem issue in the field and they grasp at straws to try and feel important.
 
Hmm I wonder how it would go over if this happens to me next year and I then request to also be called Dr. as I'm also a PharmD...

jc3hn.jpg
 
mik30102 said:
Hmm I wonder how it would go over if this happens to me next year and I then request to also be called Dr. as I'm also a PharmD...

jc3hn.jpg
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My vet expects me to call him Dr. I usually tend to prefer a first name basis. What do you do about that one?
 
WedgeDawg said:
You're literally the lowest person on the totem pole. Address everyone as Dr. - even the custodial staff - until you're told otherwise. This isn't the place to take a stand.
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Decent advice but it would be so hard for me.
 
Wjldenver said:
My vet expects me to call him Dr. I usually tend to prefer a first name basis. What do you do about that one?
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Like during casual settings, or when he's taking care of your pet?
 
Wjldenver said:
When he is taking care of my pet. ...Sounds like you're leaning toward Dr.
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I would call him Dr. in that setting assuming he did earn a degree in veterinary medicine, especially since he explicitly mentioned it.

If he wants to be called Dr. in casual settings, then he might be a bit of a tool.
 
TaroBubbleTea said:
I would call him Dr. in that setting assuming he did earn a degree in veterinary medicine, especially since he explicitly mentioned it.

If he wants to be called Dr. in casual settings, then he might be a bit of a tool.
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Yeah, I don't see him in casual settings. I guess I should be more formal in the vet clinic.
 
vm26 said:
Exactly, honestly don't give a rats a** what I am called. I have a great gig. I know my role, I know that I went to med school and did 7 years of training afterwards, and I know what my paycheck is/time-off etc...
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Preach doc. I would feel the same way if I'm in your position.
 
Psai said:
Totally disagree, would not call an np a doctor ever.
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I always enjoy your posts.

I've actually had the opposite experience of some people in this thread. On my family medicine rotation (M3) I followed a DNP for half a day cuz my attending had an emergency. When watching the DNP interview the patient, occasionally the patients would call the DNP "doctor." DNP then had an embarrassed look and quickly corrected that she's not an MD but a DNP. Maybe there was some hospital policy she was violating.

Anyways for the most part I've found DNPs to be respectful and not condescending towards med students, just like any other person in the field, but you've got some bad apples everywhere I suppose... most people work at academic centers for good reasons but perhaps some do it for power disparities over med/nursing/pharm students, and you just ignore them and report them after match day :highfive::whistle:😉
 
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What did the NP say exactly? Hopefully the patients understand that an advanced nurse going around telling med students to call her Dr is pathetic.
 
"Madame Doctor"? That's a new one!!!

Now 'Dawg, you know humor doesn't travel well over the electrons!

WedgeDawg said:
Sorry, I didn't intend for my statement to be taken literally. My point was just that we aren't in a position to make a fuss when someone wants to be addressed in a certain way. If OP is just venting, I get that, fine. I'm just cautioning that they shouldn't do anything about it that might be construed as confrontational.
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Doctor-S said:
To be truthful, I don't care what "title" anyone uses ... just DON'T screw up and kill any of my patients!
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Goro said:
"Madame Doctor"? That's a new one!!!
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Yeah, and this "Madame Doctor" doesn't speak French.

A few years ago, a visiting French physician-scholar addressed me as "Madame Doctor."

I'm not sure if he knew that "Madame" also means something entirely scandalous in the English language, if you know what I mean!

Of course, the medical students found his name for me to be perfectly hilarious! Come to think of it, so did the residents!
 
I would call the NP Dr. AND make for damn sure I did it in front of the attending ("well with my discussion of the treatment plan with Dr. X") and see how that goes over-probably not well.

No matter how you cut it it's inappropriate for a NP to go by Dr in a patient care situation in my opinion, they are not acting independently (in most hospitals) and are not as highly trained as physicians. They are not Drs in a clinical setting just like pharmacists or physical therapists aren't (in a clinical setting).

I have no issue with them going by Dr on the classroom side (teaching their own students etc)

Never had this issue honestly I have only worked with nice competent and nice incompetent NPs.

Overall best not to rock the boat as a med student.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Doctor-S said:
To be truthful, I don't care what "title" anyone uses ... just DON'T screw up and kill any of my patients!
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This is exactly why it matters. If someone is telling me that they are Dr. whatever and recommending some nonsense, I would like to know that they aren't actually a doctor so I can feel better about ignoring it.
 
Or when they go to the urgent care and the NP has no clue (yet still probably gives antibiotics) so the patient goes home telling friends and family "the doctors don't know what's wrong."
 
Even if I earned MD/DO from a well established Medical School, I'd want people to call me however they want. It's a small freedom I can give to people.
 
gyngyn said:
Our hospital policy specifically forbids the use of the title in patient care areas when addressing anyone who is not a physician (or dentist).
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+1 at my AMC.

However, it is generally allowable to introduce "PhDs" at our meetings as something along the lines of "I'd like to introduce you to Dr. X who is a professor of neuroscience."
 
Doctor-S said:
+1 at my AMC.

However, it is generally allowable to introduce "PhDs" at our meetings as something along the lines of "I'd like to introduce you to Dr. X who is a professor of neuroscience."
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That's totally reasonable. It's not about the title. It's about letting people know your role, especially the patient and their family.
 
Yea, no confrontations on my part. I know my role in the grand scheme of things. I call everyone want they want to be called. At the end of day, we all know where we are at and where we are headed.
 
my gf recently interviewed for a job in a non-physician field. the interviewer's wife was a NP who had taken care of my gf and somehow it came up... interviewer said "oh, my wife is your doctor?" and my gf said "no, she's my NP" :laugh:

of course my gf had no idea this is a topic of concern in health care and was just being the overly-precise nerd she is... the conversation moved on quickly but I can't imagine that was an optimal exchange
 
No need for insults, the title of "Dr. X, our nurse practitioner" destroys an ego on its own. That and the fact they probably paid to get their white coat sewed with BLSC next to that DNP.
 
Staphylococcus Aureus said:
No need for insults, the title of "Dr. X, our nurse practitioner" destroys an ego on its own. That and the fact they probably paid to get their white coat sewed with BLSC next to that DNP.
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Calling a nurse a nurse isn't an insult... Nursing has an interesting history into becoming a profession. I don't know why they are so hell bent on playing doctor besides money and power. They should take pride in their education and profession. It kinda makes me sad that they don't.
 
WedgeDawg said:
You're literally the lowest person on the totem pole. Address everyone as Dr. - even the custodial staff - until you're told otherwise. This isn't the place to take a stand.
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I'm afraid I'd have to disagree . While being polite is a must and being diplomatic is a essential skill there is nothing to gain by kissing ass. You're just putting out a sign that you're a doormat . In two years he might be a resident there that last thing he needs is the nickname "Dr. Pushover" .

Yes medicine is a team effort but as a doctor you are the de facto leader and you get dumped on by the higher ups not the non-MDs . Nurses are our best tools but there is a sizable fringe that are almost openly hostile towards doctors while demanding more payment "because they do all the work" . NPs already get payed 80k vs th 60k for neurosurgery resident , not to mention fully trained PCPs or Peds . So from my honest perspective they are a group that would love to have all the respect that a hard working doctors get without going trough the soul & bone crushing training that we do. Therefore if they continue to be hostile they can go , take the bloated bureaucrats that promote them to save 10% on salaries cost per patient and go do inferior quality medicine on Pluto.

As a student RNs, techs will and NP (IDK about PAs but they seem to be growing an ego too) will love to try and show you have intellectually inferior you are compared with them , meet their challenges with calm , politeness and respect . If you done half a good job studying you would be able to politely explain them into silence in a few minutes , if you do get outsmarted by nurse you should be ashamed of yourself and hit the books. Nurses & co. love to brag how they school doctors and they will do so for years , while this banter might be cute it cuts away precious time and it can endanger patient.

You are there for two main reasons : to learn and to build a network. While being friends with everyone is how things will start there will be 5% of non-MDs that will start hating your guts as you advance trough your training and spend less and less time doing menial stuff. Don't allow them to step over your because that endangers the patients and don't count on other MDs to bail your ass since they already have their hands full.
On the plus side about 10 - 20% of them will call you doctor and go out of their way to make you feel welcomed and advance your training - those people will make you love medicine . You will seriously wish you could clone them.

Just my 0.02$
 
Spectre of Ockham said:
If you done half a good job studying you would be able to politely explain them into silence in a few minutes , if you do get outsmarted by nurse you should be ashamed of yourself and hit the books. Nurses & co. love to brag how they school doctors and they will do so for years , while this banter might be cute it cuts away precious time and it can endanger
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I find these discussions fascinating. I am a nurse. This particular statement you made is haughty and inaccurate. Nurses learn a completely different (and less rigorous) side of patient care that is vital to the success of the healthcare team. That is one reason I want to go to medical school and not NP. However, it makes me sad that medical students and doctors are so ill-informed of what nurses actually DO know and can do. In my facility I have never heard nurses "brag about how they school doctors."

But nurses know and see a different side of the patient and I hope you will learn to respect and appreciate that.
Look around. Do you actually hear nurses bragging? Or did you just see that on t.v.?

I've never heard a DNP request to be called doctor and I think the OP could use this encounter to open a conversation with that person to discuss this professionally. "Hi, thank you for your work with me today. I wanted to ask you about something that suprised me....." There is a way to address this professionally and forge relationships rather than isolating begrudging walls. By posting this on here, you continue to spread false notions about nurses that will damage others' future relationships.
 
ED-RN2MD said:
I find these discussions fascinating. I am a nurse. This particular statement you made is haughty and inaccurate. Nurses learn a completely different (and less rigorous) side of patient care that is vital to the success of the healthcare team. That is one reason I want to go to medical school and not NP. However, it makes me sad that medical students and doctors are so ill-informed of what nurses actually DO know and can do. In my facility I have never heard nurses "brag about how they school doctors."

But nurses know and see a different side of the patient and I hope you will learn to respect and appreciate that.
Look around. Do you actually hear nurses bragging? Or did you just see that on t.v.?

I've never heard a DNP request to be called doctor and I think the OP could use this encounter to open a conversation with that person to discuss this professionally. "Hi, thank you for your work with me today. I wanted to ask you about something that suprised me....." There is a way to address this professionally and forge relationships rather than isolating begrudging walls. By posting this on here, you continue to spread false notions about nurses that will damage others' future relationships.
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Go to literally any news article online about nurses or doctors and you will see it. You can also go on allnurses.com where many people will extol the virtues of dnps and trash doctors.

I have heard nurse practitioners tell patients to call them doctor. I watched one berate this old lady and point at a sign that had all the physician and nurses' names and tell her that the d in dnp stands for doctor so she should be called doctor. Felt bad for that patient. Or patients will come in to clinic and tell me about their "doctor" who isn't actually a doctor. Usually they do say "I know she's not a real doctor but I just call her that".
 
Geez. :thinking: Hmmm. Sounds like you work in a hostile environment... I hope we, as professionals, can find a language that is respectful and reflective of each person involved in the medical team. No matter what your degree though, it's never okay to berate or demean someone and I'm sorry if any nurses ever made you feel inferior as a medical student or physician.

I deal with berating, dismissive, demeaning comments every shift I work from drunk patients, a-hole doctors, and everyone in between...
 
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