Dr. DNP vs. Dr. MD

[673441]

You're literally the lowest person on the totem pole. Address everyone as Dr. - even the custodial staff - until you're told otherwise. This isn't the place to take a stand.

I'm reminded of a certain episode from scrubs where the custodian gets his own lab coat


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[Psai]

I'm reminded of a certain episode from scrubs where the custodian gets his own lab coat


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Already happening

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Already happening

Easy fix - don't wear a white coat. I haven't touched mine in 3 years, its great.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Easy fix - don't wear a white coat. I haven't touched mine in 3 years, its great.

I haven't worn my white coat (unless forced to for formal events) since intern year. I hate it...scrubs 24/7 for me the only exception is clinic, when I wear the coat over my scrubs to be distinguished from the cast techs.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

I'm reminded of a certain episode from scrubs where the custodian gets his own lab coat


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The custodians at my hospital wear those white paper coats that are partially see-through.

 

[Mad Jack]

This reminds me of my years in nursing school. On several occasions during my 2 years of nursing school, students would accidentally address a PhD instructor as Mrs. X instead of Dr. X. They would flip out and correct them and say "Ummmm Dr.????? That is rude!". Then I started the route to medical school and had instructors with PhD's in chemistry, physics, etc. This same mistake happened multiple times during my pre med science classes and the instructors never said a word. Working in the hospitals around doctors (MD/DO) I have heard the same thing, or they would address the doctor by their first name. No big deal to them. I have concluded that it is a self esteem issue in the field and they grasp at straws to try and feel important.

I'm actually not a fan of the whole "doctor" title. I'm going to be like, seriously, just call me Jack. Too many syllables in Doctor Lastname (I've got a fairly long last name), it's a waste of what finite time I have to hear it a million times before I die.

 

[Psai]

I haven't worn my white coat (unless forced to for formal events) since intern year. I hate it...scrubs 24/7 for me the only exception is clinic, when I wear the coat over my scrubs to be distinguished from the cast techs.

I wear it to cover up my growing waistline

 

[kemper6036]

Is that short for "not a doctor?"

absolutely

 

[SDN]

Don't worry about the 'doctor' title:

1. Physicians never had a monopoly on the term.
2. Outside of the hospital or medical office, anyone that introduces themselves as a doctor is a narcissistic dip****.
3. You're a physician. Everyone wants to be a doctor, few people want the associated liability of being a physician.

Lab coats are a style thing; I don't wear them, but some people do. Nobody cares.

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

For those of you who think that the term doctor bares no value - are you even working with difficult patients ?

The way you carry yourself and how you project your authority can make the difference between taking a diagnosing and treating a patient in a few minutes or wasting twice that time on a confrontational patient. Maybe you guys study or practice in some heavenly little place with overly nice people. I don't think most of us enjoy such a luxury. Whether we like it or not every detail matters when it comes to patient interaction - including whether or not you get sued or reported .

The following are my observations from 3 years spent in the ER :
#1 Doctor introduces himself/herself as a doctor : PT becomes very chatty and receptive. Doctor doesn't introduces himself/herself : PT cooperates with various degrees of contempt and defiance.

#2 Wearing a nice metallic name tag , no one looks at it but assumes you're an authority . Best 5$ I've ever spent.

#3 (Sigh) Stethoscope displayed around your neck - makes interacting with nurses , techs and PTs easier. (yes I know I couldn't believe that either)

#4 Being perfectly groomed - this goes for most aspects of life but PTs have in their heads the image of an actor playing a doctor , so if you don't look hot you at least have to look smart but not nerdy. This has been such a bane on some unfortunate student colleagues that it severely impaired their ability to practice their skills .

#5 Having a warm , commanding and overly polite tone. It comes as a second nature to most ER MDs , less frequently found in other specialties.

P.S. Pharmaceutically gifted patients are less likely to throw stuff at you , meanwhile RN and NA get the short straw since they rarely register on the radar of a PT with full blow psychosis.

 

[WheezyBaby]

"hi I'm wheezy baby, one of the doctors on the so and so team, nice to meet you". Pt can then proceed to call me whatever they like, idgaf

 

[flightnurse2MD]

smh....

 

[SpartanWolverine]

smh....

Can't believe I watched the whole thing. For those of you who want to skip the pain, here are her talking points (though by reading this you sadly miss out on seeing her not-so-thinly veiled utter contempt for physicians):
1) MDAs and CRNAs provide the same care and do the same thing.
2) MDAs feel "gypped" that they went to school for longer.
3) MDAs are fearful that their jobs will be taken by CRNAs.
4) CRNAs are held down by the establishment when they are required to have physician oversight. "We don't want MDs standing over our shoulders".
5) Doctors are 'petty' because they get upset when a mid-level with a doctorate calls themself 'doctor'.
6) I'm going to push for CRNAs to be seen as equal to MDAs.

 

[W19]

smh....

Oh gawd!

 

[W19]

Maybe anesthesia, primary care and psych should be left to CRNA/NP... They have proven that you don't have to go to school for 11-12 years to do these jobs...

 

[ChrisMack390]

I'm still an M0, but I sure hope when I get to M3/4 I have something to worry about other than this.

 

[Taddy Mason]

I'm still an M0, but I sure hope when I get to M3/4 I have something to worry about other than this.

As long as you don't have a fragile ego you'll be fine.

 

[username456789]

Easy fix - don't wear a white coat. I haven't touched mine in 3 years, its great.

In my practice, the two PAs and the NP all wear scrubs and a white coat.

The mohs surgeon with whom I work wears scrubs because it actually makes sense. No white coat.

I wear chinos or slacks and a button-down collared shirt and no white coat - just a metal magnetic nametag. Never a white coat.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Can't believe I watched the whole thing. For those of you who want to skip the pain, here are her talking points (though by reading this you sadly miss out on seeing her not-so-thinly veiled utter contempt for physicians):
1) MDAs and CRNAs provide the same care and do the same thing.
2) MDAs feel "gypped" that they went to school for longer.
3) MDAs are fearful that their jobs will be taken by CRNAs.
4) CRNAs are held down by the establishment when they are required to have physician oversight. "We don't want MDs standing over our shoulders".
5) Doctors are 'petty' because they get upset when a mid-level with a doctorate calls themself 'doctor'.
6) I'm going to push for CRNAs to be seen as equal to MDAs.

Lol @#5... I can't believe people actually think like this

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

In my practice, the two PAs and the NP all wear scrubs and a white coat.

The mohs surgeon with whom I work wears scrubs because it actually makes sense. No white coat.

I wear chinos or slacks and a button-down collared shirt and no white coat - just a metal magnetic nametag. Never a white coat.

My dress code as well (I love Cabela's wrinkle-free oxford shirts), although I don't wear a name tag - I'm the owner and only doctor here so I don't see a need for it. In a larger practice I probably would.

 

[Shams al Deen]

Can't believe I watched the whole thing. For those of you who want to skip the pain, here are her talking points (though by reading this you sadly miss out on seeing her not-so-thinly veiled utter contempt for physicians):
1) MDAs and CRNAs provide the same care and do the same thing.
2) MDAs feel "gypped" that they went to school for longer.
3) MDAs are fearful that their jobs will be taken by CRNAs.
4) CRNAs are held down by the establishment when they are required to have physician oversight. "We don't want MDs standing over our shoulders".
5) Doctors are 'petty' because they get upset when a mid-level with a doctorate calls themself 'doctor'.
6) I'm going to push for CRNAs to be seen as equal to MDAs.

Well I mean if the data support the claim that there is no difference in patient outcome b/w CRNAs and MDAs, then that nurse on the youtube vid has a point. And @W19 has a point that maybe we have figured out that some MD specialties really do not require 12 years of school.

I admit that I have not spent much time looking this up, but from what little googling I did do, it seems that there really is no difference in patient outcome with nurses vs MDs in anaesthesia. Based on this, I would expect the MDA's salary to slowly start approaching the CRNA's salary.

 

[Psai]

Well I mean if the data support the claim that there is no difference in patient outcome b/w CRNAs and MDAs, then that nurse on the youtube vid has a point. And @W19 has a point that maybe we have figured out that some MD specialties really do not require 12 years of school.

I admit that I have not spent much time looking this up, but from what little googling I did do, it seems that there really is no difference in patient outcome with nurses vs MDs in anaesthesia. Based on this, I would expect the MDA's salary to slowly start approaching the CRNA's salary.

This post is all kinds of stupid

 

[Shams al Deen]

This post is all kinds of stupid

I'm playing devil's advocate, and have yet to see answers to the type of questions I'm asking.

What metrics will a hospital look at when deciding whether to pay 300K/year for an MDA vs 15oK/year for a CRNA? It would seem like patient outcome is a good measurement. You say that is all kinds of stupid. OK fine, but what do you say is a smarter metric.

 

[WheezyBaby]

Well I mean if the data support the claim that there is no difference in patient outcome b/w CRNAs and MDAs, then that nurse on the youtube vid has a point. And @W19 has a point that maybe we have figured out that some MD specialties really do not require 12 years of school.

I admit that I have not spent much time looking this up, but from what little googling I did do, it seems that there really is no difference in patient outcome with nurses vs MDs in anaesthesia. Based on this, I would expect the MDA's salary to slowly start approaching the CRNA's salary.

Perhaps you should

 

[Shams al Deen]

Only nurses call a physician anesthesiologist a "MDA". If you want to use nursing lingo then become a nurse, otherwise use the correct terminology.

LOL. Ok I'll drop out of med school to become a nurse.

Didn't realize MDA was such a polarizing acronym. I just copied the term from SpartanMichigan. But i guess everything is offensive to somebody nowadays. Is there some sort of prejudiced history associated with the acronym that stands for Medical Doctor- Anesthesiology?

 

[SpartanWolverine]

LOL. Ok I'll drop out of med school to become a nurse.

Didn't realize MDA was such a polarizing acronym. I just copied the term from SpartanMichigan. But i guess everything is offensive to somebody nowadays. Is there some sort of prejudiced history associated with the acronym that stands for Medical Doctor- Anesthesiology?

lol. It was part of my being 'in character' as the CRNA student. It's not particularly polarizing insofar as the anesthesiology group at my hospital use it to refer to themselves. However, it's like using the term "provider". It normalizes the roles in the way that you're changing the anesthesiologist to a MDA to put it directly in line with CRNA. CRNA vs. Anesthesiologist, pretty distinct, right? CRNA vs. MDA... huh? Some people get offended by this step towards blurring of the line while others don't give a hoot.

But what about us DOs? Would be we DOA in the eyes of CRNAs?

 

[cbrons]

Well I mean if the data support the claim that there is no difference in patient outcome b/w CRNAs and MDAs, then that nurse on the youtube vid has a point. And @W19 has a point that maybe we have figured out that some MD specialties really do not require 12 years of school.

I admit that I have not spent much time looking this up, but from what little googling I did do, it seems that there really is no difference in patient outcome with nurses vs MDs in anaesthesia. Based on this, I would expect the MDA's salary to slowly start approaching the CRNA's salary.

What outcomes?

The np studies are mostly observational. And the outcomes they select are essentially surrogates for some larger picture, which may or may not have relevance to what the study implies it is measuring.

Primary care actually requires more not less knowledge than specialized care (at least if you want primary care in this country to have some value as opposed to being a way-station for unnecessary test-ordering and specialty referrals).

NPs in primary care have "similar outcomes" (as determined by weak observational studies done by nurses or government stooges) because they refer everything remotely complex to specialists. They know how to do screen and triage and then ship people off to someone more qualified. I see NPs regularly refer women with a FH of BC to ObGyn to determine when they need a mammogram, or to sports medicine/ortho/rheum for anything musculoskeletal or to heme/onc for very straightforward anema. Their lack of education becomes obvious when you see how little an NP in primary care can take care of solo. (This is also why there are hospitals who've decided not to hire mid-levels on certain units, because their cheaper salary cost doesn't makeup for their over-ordering of tests - @Winged Scapula had such a story she told a while back about this).

There's also the not-insignificant fact that rich/wealthy people and other doctors are not going to get their primary care from a nurse practitioner. They will (and do) pay a lot of money, even if its out of pocket, to see an M.D. The type of system where NPs are "given" primary care is the one where poor people get NPs and not doctors.

No hospital is going to let NPs run an ED completely by themselves. No hospital is going to allow an NP-only ICU to exist.

This is one of the reasons randomized control trials of NP vs MD care is impossible to run in actually sick patients. They are considered ethical no-gos from the very start.

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[LutGholein]

smh....

The ASA needs to fight this type of misinformation--- this CRNA-to-be believes that the knowledge base of an Anesthesiologist and a CRNA are exactly the same. There is a two-tier health system emerging in the U.S and you can bet dollars to doughnuts that the very same politicians that allow themselves to be bamboozled or strong-armed by nursing PACs will not be using CRNAs when it concerns their own health and those of their family.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What outcomes?

The np studies are mostly observational. And the outcomes they select are essentially surrogates for some larger picture, which may or may not have relevance to what the study implies it is measuring.

Primary care actually requires more not less knowledge than specialized care (at least if you want primary care in this country to have some value as opposed to being a way-station for unnecessary test-ordering and specialty referrals).

NPs in primary care have "similar outcomes" (as determined by weak observational studies done by nurses or government stooges) because they refer everything remotely complex to specialists. They know how to do screen and triage and then ship people off to someone more qualified. I see NPs regularly refer women with a FH of BC to ObGyn to determine when they need a mammogram, or to sports medicine/ortho/rheum for anything musculoskeletal or to heme/onc for very straightforward anema. Their lack of education becomes obvious when you see how little an NP in primary care can take care of solo. (This is also why there are hospitals who've decided not to hire mid-levels on certain units, because their cheaper salary cost doesn't makeup for their over-ordering of tests - @Winged_Scapula had such a story she told a while back about this).

There's also the not-insignificant fact that rich/wealthy people and other doctors are not going to get their primary care from a nurse practitioner. They will (and do) pay a lot of money, even if its out of pocket, to see an M.D. The type of system where NPs are "given" primary care is the one where poor people get NPs and not doctors.

No hospital is going to let NPs run an ED completely by themselves. No hospital is going to allow an NP-only ICU to exist.

This is one of the reasons randomized control trials of NP vs MD care is impossible to run in actually sick patients. They are considered ethical no-gos from the very start.

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+1

I posted a while back a few studies on mid-levels vs MDs. I'll try to dig them up. Essentially, the studies all said that outcomes were the same because:

~MDs took care of more patients who were sicker
~Mid-levels called more consults and ordered more tests
~Mid-levels took care of younger patients with simpler chief concerns

It's easy to look at the line in the results that says the outcomes are the same, but when you look at why the picture becomes clear.

 

[Man o War]

Well I mean if the data support the claim that there is no difference in patient outcome b/w CRNAs and MDAs, then that nurse on the youtube vid has a point. And @W19 has a point that maybe we have figured out that some MD specialties really do not require 12 years of school.

I admit that I have not spent much time looking this up, but from what little googling I did do, it seems that there really is no difference in patient outcome with nurses vs MDs in anaesthesia. Based on this, I would expect the MDA's salary to slowly start approaching the CRNA's salary.

Don't worry. When you actually spend some time on rotations and see how often CRNAs can't do procedures proficiently or at all(TEE, lines, blocks, fiberoptic intubations, spinal drains), miss airways, mismanage hemodynamics, and just need assistance from an MD in general you will then understand. They are all legends in their own minds in cyberspace so it doesn't surprise me you reached this conclusion after googling.

 

[@Hazel-rah]

This discussion towards the end of this thread is a large part of my choice to try to go to medical school & not train as an NP. I work with both and I see firsthand the knowledge gaps... I, personally, would feel undertrained and marginally useful as an NP or PA. It is surprising to read the level of animosity that some folks have for nurses, though. Remember: each person brings something to the table and chooses the path they want.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is. --Irvin Himmel

To belittle is to be little.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I call ophthalmologists eye dentists.


--
Il Destriero

You mean optometrists?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This discussion towards the end of this thread is a large part of my choice to try to go to medical school & not train as an NP. I work with both and I see firsthand the knowledge gaps... I, personally, would feel undertrained and marginally useful as an NP or PA. It is surprising to read the level of animosity that some folks have for nurses, though. Remember: each person brings something to the table and chooses the path they want.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is. --Irvin Himmel

To belittle is to be little.

A friend of mine went through a supposedly reputable FNP program. She got a job right out of school, but quit after 3 months because she felt woefully unprepared to practice independently. Her years an RN did not make up for the knowledge gap like so many NPs like to pretend it does. She went back to her job as an RN and got a part time NP gig at a college wellness center.

 

[libertyyne]

Don't worry. When you actually spend some time on rotations and see how often CRNAs can't do procedures proficiently or at all(TEE, lines, blocks, fiberoptic intubations, spinal drains), miss airways, mismanage hemodynamics, and just need assistance from an MD in general you will then understand. They are all legends in their own minds in cyberspace so it doesn't surprise me you reached this conclusion after googling.

I thought the fiber-optic intubations were easier.is this a misperception?

 

[Man o War]

I thought the fiber-optic intubations were easier.is this a misperception?

When you graduate from CRNA school without actually doing one on a live patient, no.
But don't worry, they don't need no stinking supervision.

 

[Wordead]

I thought the fiber-optic intubations were easier.is this a misperception?

DL and fiberoptic are both "easy" in an easy stable airway. Intubating someone who's unstable, who has altered anatomy, who has vomit or blood blocking your view turns it into a difficult proposition. And if you havent done fiberoptic regularly then no, it's not easier.

 

[Psai]

This discussion towards the end of this thread is a large part of my choice to try to go to medical school & not train as an NP. I work with both and I see firsthand the knowledge gaps... I, personally, would feel undertrained and marginally useful as an NP or PA. It is surprising to read the level of animosity that some folks have for nurses, though. Remember: each person brings something to the table and chooses the path they want.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is. --Irvin Himmel

To belittle is to be little.

Are you serious lol
I've never told people that my school is basically the same as pa school but in shorter time.
I also like most of my nurses

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

DL and fiberoptic are both "easy" in an easy stable airway. Intubating someone who's unstable, who has altered anatomy, who has vomit or blood blocking your view turns it into a difficult proposition. And if you havent done fiberoptic regularly then no, it's not easier.

+1
A lot of procedures are "easy" in ideal situations, but many times you aren't doing them in ideal situations, and that's when experience comes into play.

 

[license43]

During a clerkship, I got "chastised" for not addressing a DNP prepared nurse practitioner as Dr. X. Why is this a thing? I have had attendings introduce themselves by their first names to me. Obviously, I address them as Dr. X and I ask residents how they want to be addressed and its usually by their first name only. Most of our PT guys are doctrate prepared and all our clinical pharmacists are doctorate level, but they never want to be called Dr. X. So why the big push by some DNPs to be called Dr.? Things that make you go hmmmm.....

I don't think this is an indication of DNPs, I think maybe certain people are sensitive and are uptight about inferiors behaving in ways that show 'respect...?' From my experience (BSN -RN, accepted medical student), nurses ARE are lot more sensitive and probably don't want to go back to the days where they were 'less than doctors' and want to feel more validated. Nothing against you, it says more about them.

 

[license43]

This discussion towards the end of this thread is a large part of my choice to try to go to medical school & not train as an NP. I work with both and I see firsthand the knowledge gaps... I, personally, would feel undertrained and marginally useful as an NP or PA. It is surprising to read the level of animosity that some folks have for nurses, though. Remember: each person brings something to the table and chooses the path they want.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is. --Irvin Himmel

To belittle is to be little.

Well thats why PAs/NPs need supervision... They are not independent providers, they practice under or in 'collaboration' (lol) as PAs and NPs respectively.
But NPS are becoming more 'independent' in certain states (the more rural ones).
I agree though, I'm a RN thats becoming a doctor and I would never want to be trained in the crummy curriculum that is called NP. Did you see the classes your taught..?? Research, basic assessment, advanced assessment, advanced physiology..?? Like no.

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

Maybe anesthesia, primary care and psych should be left to CRNA/NP... They have proven that you don't have to go to school for 11-12 years to do these jobs...

Statements like these make me really really want to stop my company from making security AIs and bet the farm on making medical AIs just to put as many extremist RNs out of business. I shall than bathe in their tears.

Seriously - a drug dispensing AI with some minor robotics would reduce the nursing staff needs by 15% in the hospitals I train in. Not such big numbers but a lot of tears would be shed. Only 4 years to develop and about 40 M needed.

 

[deleted245139]

No hospital is going to let NPs run an ED completely by themselves. No hospital is going to allow an NP-only ICU to exist.

This is one of the reasons randomized control trials of NP vs MD care is impossible to run in actually sick patients. They are considered ethical no-gos from the very start.

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And this in and of itself is telling....

 

[SunsFun]

For those of you who think that the term doctor bares no value - are you even working with difficult patients ?

The way you carry yourself and how you project your authority can make the difference between taking a diagnosing and treating a patient in a few minutes or wasting twice that time on a confrontational patient. Maybe you guys study or practice in some heavenly little place with overly nice people. I don't think most of us enjoy such a luxury. Whether we like it or not every detail matters when it comes to patient interaction - including whether or not you get sued or reported .

The following are my observations from 3 years spent in the ER :
#1 Doctor introduces himself/herself as a doctor : PT becomes very chatty and receptive. Doctor doesn't introduces himself/herself : PT cooperates with various degrees of contempt and defiance.

#2 Wearing a nice metallic name tag , no one looks at it but assumes you're an authority . Best 5$ I've ever spent.

#3 (Sigh) Stethoscope displayed around your neck - makes interacting with nurses , techs and PTs easier. (yes I know I couldn't believe that either)

#4 Being perfectly groomed - this goes for most aspects of life but PTs have in their heads the image of an actor playing a doctor , so if you don't look hot you at least have to look smart but not nerdy. This has been such a bane on some unfortunate student colleagues that it severely impaired their ability to practice their skills .

#5 Having a warm , commanding and overly polite tone. It comes as a second nature to most ER MDs , less frequently found in other specialties.

P.S. Pharmaceutically gifted patients are less likely to throw stuff at you , meanwhile RN and NA get the short straw since they rarely register on the radar of a PT with full blow psychosis.

Alternatively you could just know your **** and the patient will respect you rather than worry about metallic name tag, stethoscope, or a length of your beard.


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[@Hazel-rah]

Statements like these make me really really want to stop my company from making security AIs and bet the farm on making medical AIs just to put as many extremist RNs out of business. I shall than bathe in their tears.

Seriously - a drug dispensing AI with some minor robotics would reduce the nursing staff needs by 15% in the hospitals I train in. Not such big numbers but a lot of tears would be shed. Only 4 years to develop and about 40 M needed.

That'll be cool when that happens! I doubt any nurses will be crying. Passing meds is super annoying. Not having to do that would make more time for patient care and make the job a lot more enjoyable. 15% is about the shortage rate nationally, so I'd say this technology would be welcome!

Your mean spirited motivation would not.

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

Alternatively you could just know your **** and the patient will respect you rather than worry about metallic name tag, stethoscope, or a length of your beard.

OFC , how could I forget that the patients are medically trained fortune tellers able to read your mind evaluate your medical skills while knowing that your actions will bring them good health.

I would seriously like to see how your "only my brain matters" attitude works out when you need to do a physical on a psychotic drunk . Would you try to examine him while he tries to bite you ? Conjure up security who are understaffed and always have their hands full ? Or let him code because you can't see him guarding his abdomen ? Oh and in the time you took trying to get uncle Moonshine to cooperate with your mind 5 more cases came along.

Knowing your stuff provides the correct diagnosis and treatment - however that's not the full equation. Otherwise we would do business not in suits but in sweatpants and the police would go topless most days.

 

[SunsFun]

OFC , how could I forget that the patients are medically trained fortune tellers able to read your mind evaluate your medical skills while knowing that your actions will bring them good health.

I would seriously like to see how your "only my brain matters" attitude works out when you need to do a physical on a psychotic drunk . Would you try to examine him while he tries to bite you ? Conjure up security who are understaffed and always have their hands full ? Or let him code because you can't see him guarding his abdomen ? Oh and in the time you took trying to get uncle Moonshine to cooperate with your mind 5 more cases came along.

Knowing your stuff provides the correct diagnosis and treatment - however that's not the full equation. Otherwise we would do business not in suits but in sweatpants and the police would go topless most days.

That's a strawman as I never said you shouldn't care about appearance. I just believe that students should focus more on having a set of pertinent questions to ask and a coherent plan in place rather than working out the details of where to pin their metal name tags.


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